The Syndicate

timmer wrote:

Long Con wrote: You also bring up a good point I hadn't thought of - if MP chose a baddie as The Narrator, then he would have more than his own whims to consider when deciding which side to support.

For this reason, no one should be listening to MP's thoughts on anything, imo. He'll paint his narrator to be a civ, no matter what. And if his narrator is a baddie then MP is essentially a baddie, too.

Timmer -those are all really good points. I think it's pretty safe to rule SD out as being a sorcerer - but yea. Everything else is pretty unknown. You make a good case though that she could be a suit. One definately worth keeping in mind.

linki - that's a fair point as well LC. Just to refresh my memory - was the connection that DH didn't want to vote DF during that lynch? What was the bones of it again. I know you laid it out before, just need my memory refreshed.

Hmm, maybe I've been too critical of Snow Dog. I felt he was connected to DF as well. I'll have to re-read all three.

bea wrote:

timmer wrote:

Long Con wrote: You also bring up a good point I hadn't thought of - if MP chose a baddie as The Narrator, then he would have more than his own whims to consider when deciding which side to support.

For this reason, no one should be listening to MP's thoughts on anything, imo. He'll paint his narrator to be a civ, no matter what. And if his narrator is a baddie then MP is essentially a baddie, too.

Timmer -those are all really good points. I think it's pretty safe to rule SD out as being a sorcerer - but yea. Everything else is pretty unknown. You make a good case though that she could be a suit. One definately worth keeping in mind.

linki - that's a fair point as well LC. Just to refresh my memory - was the connection that DH didn't want to vote DF during that lynch? What was the bones of it again. I know you laid it out before, just need my memory refreshed.

It was also the way that DF was distancing himself from DH.

zeek wrote:About Daisy:

timmer wrote:All of this reads like detached baddie or indy to me, except the Dom vs Bass lynch where you went BIG against Dom. I think you are a Suit.

I believe the last two Suits are either her, DH or Snowy. Your point about her suspecting LC (in theory a teammate) a little but not too hard, works if DH is her teammate as well, as he was in her Top 3 Suspects but saying she's just unsure about him.

timmer wrote:If MP chose SD as his narrator, which makes sense as a good choice, and he knows her role, it doesn't mean she is CIV. It means he knows her role and needs her alive otherwise he DIES. And the only way he could make that happen, in a situation where she is getting looked at, is to promote her as a civ. It's entirely self-serving on his part (and understandable of course). So if she is his narrator, it is NOT an indicator of alignment.

You could be right about MP and Daisy, I'd forgotten about the death factor. I feel better about him than I did but you raise a huge point that shouldn't be ignored.


Also, thanks for the backup yesterday when I was sparring with MP, guys :P

While we are thanking people. Thank you for being the only person to say in the thread that it was obvious I was silenced. Like no one else seemed to even care.


Linki - LC - during the D1 lynch right?

You're welcome but I'm afraid you being silenced puts you on my Sorcery list, bea, as I think Dom would likely silence a teammate on his way out to help them seem less magical.

That's a fair point zeek. I'm not dom's teammate, but I can see how you got there.

I'd love to catch someone on team sorcerer too.

Long Con wrote:

zeek wrote:I believe the last two Suits are either her, DH or Snowy. Your point about her suspecting LC (in theory a teammate) a little but not too hard, works if DH is her teammate as well, as he was in her Top 3 Suspects but saying she's just unsure about him.

If Daisy is a Suit, then DH is her teammate. Note that in all DH's grand interesting colourful post, he didn't touch on what I consider to be the most damning baddie indicator, the DFaraday connection.

Note that I said I wasn't finished, and also note that, I've addressed the DF thing in several other posts.

Note that Long Con seems to have ignored both of those notes

Noted.

DharmaHelper wrote:

Long Con wrote:

zeek wrote:I believe the last two Suits are either her, DH or Snowy. Your point about her suspecting LC (in theory a teammate) a little but not too hard, works if DH is her teammate as well, as he was in her Top 3 Suspects but saying she's just unsure about him.

If Daisy is a Suit, then DH is her teammate. Note that in all DH's grand interesting colourful post, he didn't touch on what I consider to be the most damning baddie indicator, the DFaraday connection.

Note that I said I wasn't finished, and also note that, I've addressed the DF thing in several other posts.

Note that Long Con seems to have ignored both of those notes

Noted.

You said it's wrong. I assumed you didn't touch on it because you have nothing else to say against it.

timmer wrote:

Long Con wrote: You also bring up a good point I hadn't thought of - if MP chose a baddie as The Narrator, then he would have more than his own whims to consider when deciding which side to support.

For this reason, no one should be listening to MP's thoughts on anything, imo. He'll paint his narrator to be a civ, no matter what. And if his narrator is a baddie then MP is essentially a baddie, too.

But which side is he on? I'm ever so curious.

Well, whatever. I took a risk indirectly outing myself and thought I earned your trust but whatever. I haven't lied once this game. Daisy isn't my narrator. I have said multiple times I am usually worried about her by now and I haven't been at all. She has read consistently genuine to me. I can't really back it up more than that, but I feel really strongly that she is a civilian this game.

The Narrator I selected is a civilian and that's also what factored into me playing a civilian game.

But whatever, if no one is going to listen to me I am pretty much done playing this game.

I'll vote and such but that's probably all you will get out of me. I took this risk because I've been completely genuine with everything I've said and played civilian friendly all game, but if no one can recognize that and no one wants to listen to me, why should I bother?

I totally could not have helped you guys catch Dom or do anything else I have all game but I have, and I outed myself in the process as a unnecessarily huge risk to myself to show how I'm committed to the civilian cause. But if no one wants my assistance in hunting baddies, so be it. I won't give it anymore. It would be a waste of my time anyway.

"Indirectly"

MovingPictures07 wrote:Well, whatever. I took a risk indirectly outing myself and thought I earned your trust but whatever. I haven't lied once this game. Daisy isn't my narrator. I have said multiple times I am usually worried about her by now and I haven't been at all. She has read consistently genuine to me. I can't really back it up more than that, but I feel really strongly that she is a civilian this game.

The Narrator I selected is a civilian and that's also what factored into me playing a civilian game.

But whatever, if no one is going to listen to me I am pretty much done playing this game.

I'll vote and such but that's probably all you will get out of me. I took this risk because I've been completely genuine with everything I've said and played civilian friendly all game, but if no one can recognize that and no one wants to listen to me, why should I bother?

I totally could not have helped you guys catch Dom or do anything else I have all game but I have, and I outed myself in the process as a unnecessarily huge risk to myself to show how I'm committed to the civilian cause. But if no one wants my assistance in hunting baddies, so be it. I won't give it anymore. It would be a waste of my time anyway.

So - nothing about my response to you?

You know MP. You could be on the level. I've not discounted the idea even with the natural distrust of indy's I have. And also it's not unwise to look at all the options. If you were not the role you have, would you trust ANY of us at face value? Exploring all possible scenarios isn't bad. If you've truly aligned yourself with the civies, you should continue to bother because you've alligned yourself with the civies. And yes, you did help us lynch Dom.

You can't really say anything *but* you've alligned with the civs and we have to learn to trust that that is true. Time will tell. Don't be all "I'm taking my ball and going home."

ugh


EBWOP: And yes, you did help us lynch Dom, that's a great start. Now where do we go from here?

bea, seriously?

I've already said whom I find suspicious. DH first, S~V~S second, and I believe zeek, Russti, and Snowy, and possible you and some others are worth investigating further. I was going to do more research, but frankly, I have little to no incentive to do so now. Put yourself in my shoes. There is literally practically no reason for me to even try anymore. Even LC, one of the only people who was in my corner, has expressed doubt in even considering what I have to say. I also have a life, with my fiance down here and my PhD program now beginning to ramp back up after a "slow" first week, and Film Director Mafia is starting, so if no one is going to really consider what I have to say, why should I bother expending the energy and time developing cases?

I have not lied. It made the most sense for me to play this totally civilian-friendly. I've explained my train of thought already in full. I believe it was incredibly logical and incredibly genuine. I don't want to repeat myself since I've said it all already.

If you folks want to trust each other, whose alignments you don't know, over someone who outed himself catching a baddie so that the civilians were one HUGE step closer to victory, and not only that but who has been genuinely baddie hunting all game, then that's fine. Go ahead and lose. What do I care now?

I apparently played this role totally incorrectly, so that's my own fault.

And to be fair, the ONLY reason I also didn't say I chose a civilian Narrator was because I wanted to keep the baddies guessing, but that cat is out of the bag now.

I'll be back to vote, and that's it. It'll probably be for DH. If you vote Daisy, I'm 99% (NOT 100%, zeek) sure it'll be a disaster because this is the most genuine she's read to me in a mafia game in a long time. And I won't die.

I have been tryingto catch up but it is nigh impossible.

MP - you did not indirectly out yourself - TH completely outed you. Your demeanor these last few posts seems like if we question you then you wil stop playing - basically since you said you would vote. it does not read civ friendly. It reads as irritated indy. I have stated repeatedly I do not trust indys and your posts paint a perfect example of why.

I do not think SVS or Daisy are bad.

still quite unsure about DH/LC. Really who knows they are such great players I find them hard to read.

Timmers posts were sounding slick but not now - I am not sure what to think about that but I thought it worth noting.

I am still looking at zeek, Snow, MP and now have added Mongoose to my list.

MP and zeek - you both seem to requote alot - sometimes whenit is wholly unjustified. If you want people to read your points you are making in the long quotey posts perhaps you should also post a short bullet points post. I know I am being being whiney right now but I am sick and quite whiney at this time. Sorrow.

Rest time then I Will say why I find those 4 more suspicious than the others.

Rox and everyone else, think about my actions.

If I was playing an Indy game, why the hell would I have risked outing Dom? It makes NO sense whatsoever.

My posts aren't irritated indy, they're irritated indy who has played civ-friendly all game and now is finding that absolutely no one trusts him whatsoever.

All I was asking is that my opinion is considered, like anyone else's. I'm not saying I'm infallible. I'm not saying anything even remotely like that. But if no one is even going to consider my opinion as possibly valid, then that's fine, but I won't bother building cases. Would you? It's a waste of my time.

It's everyone's irrational fear of Indies that is causing me to stop building cases, not that I'm not playing a civ-friendly game.

But you're right that all of the posts that have recently been made make me NOT want to play a civ-friendly game anymore. I frankly don't care now. You guys figure it out for yourselves.

MovingPictures07 wrote:bea, seriously?

I've already said whom I find suspicious. DH first, S~V~S second, and I believe zeek, Russti, and Snowy, and possible you and some others are worth investigating further. I was going to do more research, but frankly, I have little to no incentive to do so now. Put yourself in my shoes. There is literally practically no reason for me to even try anymore. Even LC, one of the only people who was in my corner, has expressed doubt in even considering what I have to say. I also have a life, with my fiance down here and my PhD program now beginning to ramp back up after a "slow" first week, and Film Director Mafia is starting, so if no one is going to really consider what I have to say, why should I bother expending the energy and time developing cases?

I have not lied. It made the most sense for me to play this totally civilian-friendly. I've explained my train of thought already in full. I believe it was incredibly logical and incredibly genuine. I don't want to repeat myself since I've said it all already.

If you folks want to trust each other, whose alignments you don't know, over someone who outed himself catching a baddie so that the civilians were one HUGE step closer to victory, and not only that but who has been genuinely baddie hunting all game, then that's fine. Go ahead and lose. What do I care now?

Did I really deserve that MP? I *just said* I was inclined to believe your intentions even though I never trust indys. I have good past experiences for having my extreame distrust.

I said all this and you yelled at me. You have never said anything about my response to your suspicions. I feel like you're not reading what I'm saying and that makes me sad.

I disagree with you about SVS. I think she's civ. I'm not sure about LC. I never fully trust him. I've been weary of DH since D1.

Be frustrated, that's fine. But please consider what I'm saying too.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Rox and everyone else, think about my actions.

If I was playing an Indy game, why the hell would I have risked outing Dom? It makes NO sense whatsoever.

My posts aren't irritated indy, they're irritated indy who has played civ-friendly all game and now is finding that absolutely no one trusts him whatsoever.

All I was asking is that my opinion is considered, like anyone else's. I'm not saying I'm infallible. I'm not saying anything even remotely like that. But if no one is even going to consider my opinion as possibly valid, then that's fine, but I won't bother building cases. Would you? It's a waste of my time.

It's everyone's irrational fear of Indies that is causing me to stop building cases, not that I'm not playing a civ-friendly game.

Who is saying they are refusing to listen to you? Count them. Is it really everyone playing the game or is it a couple of vocal players who are here *right now*? And has EVERYONE really thrown out your opinion? I haven't thrown out anyone's opinions. There are two baddie teams and they want each other dead as badly as I want them dead.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Rox and everyone else, think about my actions.

If I was playing an Indy game, why the hell would I have risked outing Dom? It makes NO sense whatsoever.

My posts aren't irritated indy, they're irritated indy who has played civ-friendly all game and now is finding that absolutely no one trusts him whatsoever.

All I was asking is that my opinion is considered, like anyone else's. I'm not saying I'm infallible. I'm not saying anything even remotely like that. But if no one is even going to consider my opinion as possibly valid, then that's fine, but I won't bother building cases. Would you? It's a waste of my time.

It's everyone's irrational fear of Indies that is causing me to stop building cases, not that I'm not playing a civ-friendly game.

What keeps pinging me is that you keep saying you outed dom - which is wrong - TH did. That and your not so veiled threats. I might feel better about you if it werenkt for those pesky secretsinyour role description.

Roxy wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Rox and everyone else, think about my actions.

If I was playing an Indy game, why the hell would I have risked outing Dom? It makes NO sense whatsoever.

My posts aren't irritated indy, they're irritated indy who has played civ-friendly all game and now is finding that absolutely no one trusts him whatsoever.

All I was asking is that my opinion is considered, like anyone else's. I'm not saying I'm infallible. I'm not saying anything even remotely like that. But if no one is even going to consider my opinion as possibly valid, then that's fine, but I won't bother building cases. Would you? It's a waste of my time.

It's everyone's irrational fear of Indies that is causing me to stop building cases, not that I'm not playing a civ-friendly game.

What keeps pinging me is that you keep saying you outed dom - which is wrong - TH did. That and your not so veiled threats. I might feel better about you if it werenkt for those pesky secretsinyour role description.

Uhm, actually, in MP's defense, he did out Dom. Dom even had a fit about it specifically because it was MP that did it.

EBWOP: Is it fucked up that I started a sentence with "In his defense" and ended it with "He outed somebody."

Also irrational fear lol have you never been burned by a so called civ friendly indy in game??

I never once stated I would not consider your opinions thats a bit harsh.

Linky dh you are wrong - th did. Read back and you will see it.

Mp, would you just fully trust an outed Indy role run by a brilliant mafia player because they said so? Really? You are better than that, come on. You picked someone as narrator before knowing their role, correct? So why should we trust that the narrator is a civ just because you say, when if they weren't a civ you would still say they were? And the situation outed you, you didn't out you. People were clueing in anyway. I dont trust you and this poor me attitude today. If you want to quit playing because of it, it's your right.

Yeah. MP most definitely outed Dom

Exactly, Alex is trying to cast himself as this big savior but he was just trying to get out in front of a situation that was already starting to unfold. He's very carefully playing the woe is me card to control the narrative. It makes me feel that I'm right about SD being bad SND her being the narrator.

FTR I could see MP picking SD as his narrator. Though I am disapointed that he didn't pick me I thought we were ride or die homies

Hmm TH didn't quite out Dom first but it was clearly hitting people what happened. Alex could read the writing on the wall.

Fair enough, I am definitely overreacting, but it wouldn't be the first time I have. :P

I'm not sure why you're saying anything about TH, Rox, because Dom confirmed it himself before anyone said anything. I said that I was silenced by Warden and Bavmorda, so it is my fault Dom got lynched. Honestly, it was a stupid move, and I regret it completely.

And timmer, good points. I understand, don't get me wrong. It's just frustrating and obviously I know my own intentions, but I have to keep in mind that all of you would have to put blind trust in me to believe them completely. I know that. But I believe I've laid out a logical case for why someone in my position would play a civilian-friendly Tyler game, especially since he picked a civ Narrator (and I know you could believe I'm lying, c'est la vie). I just think my actions have spoken for themselves, but that's probably because I know exactly what I've been thinking all game. You guys don't. So that's fair.

I will still play, don't get me wrong, I just won't dump in hours building cases if I believe no one will listen. That's all.

And bea, I'm sorry, but the reason I didn't address everything in your post is because I was feeling incredibly (and still am a bit) disheartened, and feel like I totally played this role completely wrong. I will mull over what you've said, and I didn't mean to offend by saying I didn't remember any of your suspects, I just was being honest.

And for anyone thinking I would pick Daisy to be my narrator, think again. I picked based on maximizing my win condition. I've done that with all my recruits as well.

Frankly, I didn't pick Daisy because I wasn't convinced she would last long enough without dying. But if you don't believe me, then lynch her and find out. I just believe it'll be a bad result for civilians which is why I've been so vocal against it.

And DH, I could have picked you. I've already said this, and you can confirm with Epig if you don't believe me, but Narrator and recruits don't know that I've picked them.

DharmaHelper wrote:EBWOP: Is it fucked up that I started a sentence with "In his defense" and ended it with "He outed somebody."

This made me laugh.

timmer wrote:Exactly, Alex is trying to cast himself as this big savior but he was just trying to get out in front of a situation that was already starting to unfold. He's very carefully playing the woe is me card to control the narrative. It makes me feel that I'm right about SD being bad SND her being the narrator.

Exactly! the writing was already on the wall.

Actually, I think I will vote for Daisy.

Also, I incredibly appreciate that you called me a brilliant mafia player, timmer, but I'm not so sure that's the case. :P

Funny or Die 4 lyf

MovingPictures07 wrote:Also, I incredibly appreciate that you called me a brilliant mafia player, timmer, but I'm not so sure that's the case. :P

I'm absolutely positive I'm not. And this is probably my last game.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Actually, I think I will vote for Daisy.

Why?

bea wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Actually, I think I will vote for Daisy.

Why?

Surely he is joking?

Snow Dog wrote:

bea wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Actually, I think I will vote for Daisy.

Why?

Surely he is joking?

Dunno - his vote is there now. I don't know if he plans on changing it later or if they are still changeable, but as of right now - both he and SVS have voted for Daisy and I don't remember SVS even posting this cycle.

MP, please clarify. Did you pick a player to be narrator, or was it a role? You keep saying you chose a civ narrator. Did you fluke into that, or did you pick a civ role and THEN found out which player had it?

And if, as you said earlier, SD is not your narrator, how do you know 100% that she is civ? And as you previously you are 100% sure she is civ, why vote her?

MovingPictures07 wrote:If you vote Daisy, I'm 99% (NOT 100%, zeek) sure it'll be a disaster. <snip>

If you want my tentatively given trust, please stop doing this. I said 99%. I never said 100%, just like I never said voting patterns are the only evidence. It's really hard to believe you when you're so flagrantly misrepresenting things I've said.

linki - He never said 100% He chooses a player to be narrator and learns their role.

Oh look, thread evidence.

zeek wrote:

timmer wrote:As to SpaceDaisy. MP, I would like you to go into DETAIL about why you are thinking civ here. Obviously you have an agenda, and the fact that you are outed and playing an ostensibly pro-civ game doesn't change that. You DO have an agenda to see your recruits survive. So when I see you defend someone as civ at this point in the game, if you want me to listen to you, you will need to DEMONSTRATE your reasons. I don't think anyone, outside of your recruits, will just simply trust you. At least, they shouldn't. So I'm willing to listen, how is SD civ?

MP's 99% claim makes me think he chose her as the Narrator and, thus, knows her role.

That's not thread evidence, that's your opinion, but yes i was trying to quote that and said 100 instead of 99%.

Here is the thread evidence.

MP said SD is not the Narrator.
MP said he is 99% sure SD is civ.
MP has not said why he is sure, if SD is not his narrator.

I meant thread evidence of MP misrepresenting me :P

I agree, I would not make a claim of that certainty without info. I don't know where this leaves us though, as he can't say why if he does kbow her role. She could be civ, I guess we have to decide whether to believe his intentions and if we do we'll have to take his word on Daisy.

bea wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Rox and everyone else, think about my actions.

If I was playing an Indy game, why the hell would I have risked outing Dom? It makes NO sense whatsoever.

My posts aren't irritated indy, they're irritated indy who has played civ-friendly all game and now is finding that absolutely no one trusts him whatsoever.

All I was asking is that my opinion is considered, like anyone else's. I'm not saying I'm infallible. I'm not saying anything even remotely like that. But if no one is even going to consider my opinion as possibly valid, then that's fine, but I won't bother building cases. Would you? It's a waste of my time.

It's everyone's irrational fear of Indies that is causing me to stop building cases, not that I'm not playing a civ-friendly game.

Who is saying they are refusing to listen to you? Count them. Is it really everyone playing the game or is it a couple of vocal players who are here *right now*? And has EVERYONE really thrown out your opinion? I haven't thrown out anyone's opinions. There are two baddie teams and they want each other dead as badly as I want them dead.

I am, for one. And I don't have an "irrational fear of indies". I have a rational fear of unknown win conditions, and of people who have an agenda not in line with mine. And as someone who can recruit across party lines, and who needs recruits alive to win. I think he has an inherent bias. The fact that he suddenly has me at the top of his list right after I come for someone who is probably recruited does not make me want to trust him more, after I have played an exceptionally transparent game, IMO.

I don't know that he would have made her the Narrator, though. I think that would have been a super convincing good talker. It is possible it was TH. But that's a stab in the dark. But Daisy is a relatively uninvolved player recently. I would not expect him to put his life in the hands of a low poster, even a beloved low poster To be honest, the sudden spike in activity during the Dom/Bass lynch was what got me reading her posts in the first place. I do think MP recruited her, though.

I have played an exceptionally transparent game, IMO.

My O as well.

I'm a bit burnt out, anyway just want to point out it can't be TH. When the narrator dies, he dies. I'm gonna read for a bit.