Inception [END]

[vanity.]

what the hell

i thought i voted'

[VOTE: sprityo] aubergine

let's try again!

Voting in the poll is performed separately

oh tyty

also i admire the charts eva but unless shit has hit the fan then i'm not sure i can get on board with you

[Benson]

Aight my reads aren't shit except my Iaafr one, Nutella is just scum

[VOTE: Nutella] aubergine

I'm not sure I fully understand why opposing reads means Nute is scum from your perspective.

[Pawn Lelouch]

what the hell

i thought i voted'

[VOTE: sprityo] aubergine

let's try again!

Voting in the poll is performed separately

oh tyty

also i admire the charts eva but unless shit has hit the fan then i'm not sure i can get on board with you

Tbf, these are probably her most coherent charts yet.

[vanity.]

i don't particularly hate or love any of these wagons

this sucks....

[Evenstar]

@Evenstar why is Spiny a town read for you?

Nice chart. I think you missed MR though

spiny is town because of her early pressure & defenses - let me dig up the posts

same kind of hard gut read as nutella, but given that I could very well be wrong about nutella it's a good idea for me to review the material

Morning everyone, can't say i'll gladly catch up, can someone tell me if is worth reading all the last 7 pages?

Ah Michelle ma belle blah blah blah French stuff

To be honest no but it also can’t hurt?
Summary:
Juliets: bad
Nutella: good
Drago: weird
Jack: good for now
Nova: scary after cats and dogs
elephant: elephant
Mac: very positive
Creature: creature
iaiaafrair: my new favorite

no mention of 112?

also just looked in your iso and you actually haven't acknowledged 112 once even though they've had lots of posts and attention so basically you're officially w/w now congratulations

No who’s 112

how do you have a strong favorite read of iaafr but "who dat" 112 when all of iaafr's meaningful posts/interactions were with 112 lol this read fake

I've been reading and avoiding posting until I finished catching up, bc sleepy and not feeling chatty tbh. but this one stuck out enough to need to reply in the moment.

Actual insight like this is rare and usually from town.

@Evenstar

so far you are an easy townread to me (actually the easiest), which makes me nervous only because I don't think you are easy to read in general. and in finals when you were town you were a townread, yes, but not an easy or pure one, just like a "I think eva is always like this and it's not scummy" one.

that said, the effortlessness of your savage-tone posting, and the fact that your conversation with Drogo, while meaningless shitposting, actually led you to have a read on him by the end, feels like v easytown to me.

should I be nervous about this read y or y not? :P

I'm pretty sure I've literally never seen this post from a scum. I catch it a lot, but it's never from scum.

how do you have a strong favorite read of iaafr but "who dat" 112 when all of iaafr's meaningful posts/interactions were with 112 lol this read fake

I've been reading and avoiding posting until I finished catching up, bc sleepy and not feeling chatty tbh. but this one stuck out enough to need to reply in the moment.

This one? This is what it was? Of all the posts you latched on to this? I mean I quoted the point I liked from iaafr and it was about Mac. And then he challenged me to a duel and I liked that too. So not all of the meaningful posts/interactions are about 112.

I’m not generally one for individual post construction, but it’s ... interesting ... (someone kill me) that the first half has no punctuation and the latter half does. That shows different curator styles, or that both parts were written separately, or its a player thing I don’t understand because I’ve never played with spiny creature before. Slight lean scum though for the first possibility: in a normal world town would never make such a mentality shift from one half to another, but there are conceivable reasons. The second and third possibilities are NAI.

gone thru mentions. I switch between caps / no caps and punctuation / no punctuation a lot, it is indeed NAI for me. ig it is the difference between shitposting register and longer-sentences register, but it doesn't mean I thought about the punctuated sentences more; I don't edit any of my posts as any alignment unless they're very long and making a complicated case.

and as for the first paragraph: yeah it was weird. I stand by that. missing all of the 112/iaafr pocket-not-pocket conversation means you skimmed the thread, so even if it's true you missed forming an impression on iaafr it was weird to me to then have 10 different reads if you hadn't read a great deal.

has courage of her convictions

Oh wait, I totally forgot about Spiny not directly confronting me about liking too many people.

[VOTE: Spiny Creature] aubergine

*narrows eyes*

I wasn't gonna make too much of it when it was just a throwaway thought from you, but when it's repeated with the exact same wording ("directly confronting me") 12 hours later, that feels like a static read. and maybe forced.

me in one post: "I'm still catching up and wasn't feeling like replying while still reading, but I do want to reply to this one specific thing from Tony"

me in the very next post: "now that i'm posting i might as well post the loose vibes I have on about 5 people so far, including a vague half-remembered read on Hyena, but these are not replies just memories"

like... dude, the lack of direct reply to you is explained. also "directly confront" as if my read on you wasn't as weaksauce as "I think I remember X scummy thing about Hyena, but not sure, will finish catchup first".

tunneling me for not replying directly to you, when I hadn't replied directly to ANYONE IN THE GAME except for Tony, and then repeating the same wording to explain the scumread 12 hours later, just feels insincere to me.

this is a good thought

not gonna quote that whole thing @Hyena but i only specifically object to the last one

"more fencesitting :P"

no. i just straight up, by no stretch of the imagination, ever townread Pawn. I said to him "hey I haven't seen any of your posts because I left before you, here is a question for you". that is 110% of our interactions at the point where you said I was calling him town.

you can't just manufacture a nonexistent townread on Pawn and then call me "fencesitting" lol

point out where specifically you got the impression I was townreading him with a quote please?

spiny is right that she's never townread pawn and that Hyena's behaviour is sus as hell

honestly could go back there rn if not for urgent breakfast spreads

[sprityo]

I would wholeheartedly appreciate to not be mislynch bait 3 games in a row, but we'll burn that bridge when we get to it

Why would you say you usually get mislynched?

because people misplace my lazy attitude with scummy-ness

and im not gonna change

there's double standards where people can fuck off all game and not be lynched, but here i am getting the bad end of the stick a lot more than most people

[sprityo]

I would wholeheartedly appreciate to not be mislynch bait 3 games in a row, but we'll burn that bridge when we get to it

I recall in hypnagogic you tend to get MLed because of low posting but other regulars here were saying your tone as town is actually really good.

Are you low posting this game? If not y do you think you’re getting heat?

oh trust me, you'll know when i get heated

[mention]MacDougall[/mention] please attest for me before i DO get heated

[Evenstar]

what the hell

i thought i voted'

[VOTE: sprityo] aubergine

let's try again!

Voting in the poll is performed separately

oh tyty

also i admire the charts eva but unless shit has hit the fan then i'm not sure i can get on board with you

Tbf, these are probably her most coherent charts yet.

Lexi was right about "you have to sell"

I'm trying to represent less information in each chart so that it's clearer what they mean and people can see my thought process better

[Pawn Lelouch]

Here’s a roughly ordered list from where I’m at now. Will try and write out comments for each person if I can later on but that might need to wait a bit due to school. So here's who I got before I needed to post.

Town Lean
Epignosis

Scum
Hyena

I'm trying to figure out what Hyena's bobble on Epi means now that Epi's posting and seems towny. If epi town, hyena bobble is... what? NAI?

Where in the ISO was this? Can check it out during a lull in class.

#1139 is the vote, drops off in #1164 following your lead onto longcon.

Okay, looking through and honestly? The bobble does seem like a NAI thing for now until we get more data later on. Since it could be Hyena being opportunistic or just being whimsical and I'm not sure which yet. And the Longcon is literally the easiest thing in the world to freely vote for. Either for light pressure to forcibly suggest the player should start posting as town or with a inactive scummate. And then there is just trying to be opportunistic and pushing for a free ML.

This doesn't really change my view on Hyena at all and most gives minor potential partner equity, which still is not enough to actually go off of for Longcon obviously.

[Pawn Lelouch]

what the hell

i thought i voted'

[VOTE: sprityo] aubergine

let's try again!

Voting in the poll is performed separately

oh tyty

also i admire the charts eva but unless shit has hit the fan then i'm not sure i can get on board with you

Tbf, these are probably her most coherent charts yet.

Lexi was right about "you have to sell"

I'm trying to represent less information in each chart so that it's clearer what they mean and people can see my thought process better

*insert thumbs up emoji here*

And it's working pretty well from where I'm situated.

[Benson]

@Evenstar why is Spiny a town read for you?

Nice chart. I think you missed MR though

spiny is town because of her early pressure & defenses - let me dig up the posts

same kind of hard gut read as nutella, but given that I could very well be wrong about nutella it's a good idea for me to review the material

Morning everyone, can't say i'll gladly catch up, can someone tell me if is worth reading all the last 7 pages?

Ah Michelle ma belle blah blah blah French stuff

To be honest no but it also can’t hurt?
Summary:
Juliets: bad
Nutella: good
Drago: weird
Jack: good for now
Nova: scary after cats and dogs
elephant: elephant
Mac: very positive
Creature: creature
iaiaafrair: my new favorite

no mention of 112?

also just looked in your iso and you actually haven't acknowledged 112 once even though they've had lots of posts and attention so basically you're officially w/w now congratulations

No who’s 112

how do you have a strong favorite read of iaafr but "who dat" 112 when all of iaafr's meaningful posts/interactions were with 112 lol this read fake

I've been reading and avoiding posting until I finished catching up, bc sleepy and not feeling chatty tbh. but this one stuck out enough to need to reply in the moment.

Actual insight like this is rare and usually from town.

@Evenstar

so far you are an easy townread to me (actually the easiest), which makes me nervous only because I don't think you are easy to read in general. and in finals when you were town you were a townread, yes, but not an easy or pure one, just like a "I think eva is always like this and it's not scummy" one.

that said, the effortlessness of your savage-tone posting, and the fact that your conversation with Drogo, while meaningless shitposting, actually led you to have a read on him by the end, feels like v easytown to me.

should I be nervous about this read y or y not? :P

I'm pretty sure I've literally never seen this post from a scum. I catch it a lot, but it's never from scum.

how do you have a strong favorite read of iaafr but "who dat" 112 when all of iaafr's meaningful posts/interactions were with 112 lol this read fake

I've been reading and avoiding posting until I finished catching up, bc sleepy and not feeling chatty tbh. but this one stuck out enough to need to reply in the moment.

This one? This is what it was? Of all the posts you latched on to this? I mean I quoted the point I liked from iaafr and it was about Mac. And then he challenged me to a duel and I liked that too. So not all of the meaningful posts/interactions are about 112.

I’m not generally one for individual post construction, but it’s ... interesting ... (someone kill me) that the first half has no punctuation and the latter half does. That shows different curator styles, or that both parts were written separately, or its a player thing I don’t understand because I’ve never played with spiny creature before. Slight lean scum though for the first possibility: in a normal world town would never make such a mentality shift from one half to another, but there are conceivable reasons. The second and third possibilities are NAI.

gone thru mentions. I switch between caps / no caps and punctuation / no punctuation a lot, it is indeed NAI for me. ig it is the difference between shitposting register and longer-sentences register, but it doesn't mean I thought about the punctuated sentences more; I don't edit any of my posts as any alignment unless they're very long and making a complicated case.

and as for the first paragraph: yeah it was weird. I stand by that. missing all of the 112/iaafr pocket-not-pocket conversation means you skimmed the thread, so even if it's true you missed forming an impression on iaafr it was weird to me to then have 10 different reads if you hadn't read a great deal.

has courage of her convictions

Oh wait, I totally forgot about Spiny not directly confronting me about liking too many people.

[VOTE: Spiny Creature] aubergine

*narrows eyes*

I wasn't gonna make too much of it when it was just a throwaway thought from you, but when it's repeated with the exact same wording ("directly confronting me") 12 hours later, that feels like a static read. and maybe forced.

me in one post: "I'm still catching up and wasn't feeling like replying while still reading, but I do want to reply to this one specific thing from Tony"

me in the very next post: "now that i'm posting i might as well post the loose vibes I have on about 5 people so far, including a vague half-remembered read on Hyena, but these are not replies just memories"

like... dude, the lack of direct reply to you is explained. also "directly confront" as if my read on you wasn't as weaksauce as "I think I remember X scummy thing about Hyena, but not sure, will finish catchup first".

tunneling me for not replying directly to you, when I hadn't replied directly to ANYONE IN THE GAME except for Tony, and then repeating the same wording to explain the scumread 12 hours later, just feels insincere to me.

this is a good thought

not gonna quote that whole thing @Hyena but i only specifically object to the last one

"more fencesitting :P"

no. i just straight up, by no stretch of the imagination, ever townread Pawn. I said to him "hey I haven't seen any of your posts because I left before you, here is a question for you". that is 110% of our interactions at the point where you said I was calling him town.

you can't just manufacture a nonexistent townread on Pawn and then call me "fencesitting" lol

point out where specifically you got the impression I was townreading him with a quote please?

spiny is right that she's never townread pawn and that Hyena's behaviour is sus as hell

honestly could go back there rn if not for urgent breakfast spreads

This is good. Thank you.

I do agree that the first couple posts have a villager's tone and mindset. The latter quotes are okay, but easily fakeable imo.

[nutella]

this diagram says I'm misreading this game badly somehow, 'cause either nutella is scum or my reads are shit

leaning towards my reads are shit

what on earth

[Long Con]

what on earth

The arrows are your reads, the circles are her reads. It compares your reads to hers, and the incompatibility leads her to believe you are bad.

[nutella]

Aight my reads aren't shit except my Iaafr one, Nutella is just scum

[VOTE: Nutella] aubergine

please explain what is happening

you are just reposting our read lists and coming to some conclusions without any explanation

[Elephant]

this diagram says I'm misreading this game badly somehow, 'cause either nutella is scum or my reads are shit

leaning towards my reads are shit

pls halp no speak

Arrows indicate read given by person in the center
Background color of the bubble is my read

dark green: town
green: townlean
light blue: towny
grey: null
pink: scummy
orange: scumlean
red: scum

as you can see, my reads and nutella's reads disagree a lot.

In an unexpected plot twist, in this game nutella is playing the watcher!

[nutella]

this diagram says I'm misreading this game badly somehow, 'cause either nutella is scum or my reads are shit

leaning towards my reads are shit

pls halp no speak

Arrows indicate read given by person in the center
Background color of the bubble is my read

dark green: town
green: townlean
light blue: towny
grey: null
pink: scummy
orange: scumlean
red: scum

as you can see, my reads and nutella's reads disagree a lot.

oh.

so because we disagree I have to be scum?

no

[vanity.]

this diagram says I'm misreading this game badly somehow, 'cause either nutella is scum or my reads are shit

leaning towards my reads are shit

pls halp no speak

Arrows indicate read given by person in the center
Background color of the bubble is my read

dark green: town
green: townlean
light blue: towny
grey: null
pink: scummy
orange: scumlean
red: scum

as you can see, my reads and nutella's reads disagree a lot.

oh.

so because we disagree I have to be scum?

no

that kinda sounds like an eva thought process based on an anon turbo we played together

thought i was wolfy because we weren't seeing the game the same way. sorta just solidifies my read on her i think

[nutella]

can someone with more Eva experience (read: has seen her as town) tell me if these absurd charts are a thing she does as town or not

[Creature]

Oh no, I'm lost

[Evenstar]

Aight my reads aren't shit except my Iaafr one, Nutella is just scum

[VOTE: Nutella] aubergine

please explain what is happening

you are just reposting our read lists and coming to some conclusions without any explanation

I doublechecked my read list against pawn's because I know he's good at reading games, and usually does so fairly truthfully regardless of alignment. His reads agree with mine, and disagree with yours. That says I'm not just playing badly; you're scum.

[nutella]

also like, I literally put disclaimers on my readlist it's very much in flux so don't read too much into it

[Creature]

sprite wagon will probably be boring

[Creature]

Hmmm, interesting diagrams

[Creature]

What program do you use?

[Evenstar]

can someone with more Eva experience (read: has seen her as town) tell me if these absurd charts are a thing she does as town or not

You read me in finale, Nutella. I know you know better than this question. Why are you suddenly resorting to AtE instead of reading my damn posts and replying to them?

[Elephant]

can someone with more Eva experience (read: has seen her as town) tell me if these absurd charts are a thing she does as town or not

Evenstar produced very convoluted charts to track ITAs in Dragongard, and had another kind of chart on day 1 of the Mafia Championship Finale. They do appear to progress towards less clutter. Evenstar played town-aligned in both games.

[Evenstar]

What program do you use?

Inspiration

[Pawn Lelouch]

can someone with more Eva experience (read: has seen her as town) tell me if these absurd charts are a thing she does as town or not

She makes charts all the time regardless of alignment. There's many things she does that are AI, this isn't one of them.

[Creature]

What program do you use?

Inspiration

[Pawn Lelouch]

can someone with more Eva experience (read: has seen her as town) tell me if these absurd charts are a thing she does as town or not

And hm. Would it be angleshooting to check spec chat if she spectated D1 of finals? Since Eva did a lot of them there so if she watched that game she shouldn't be asking this question as town.

[Evenstar]

this diagram says I'm misreading this game badly somehow, 'cause either nutella is scum or my reads are shit

leaning towards my reads are shit

pls halp no speak

Arrows indicate read given by person in the center
Background color of the bubble is my read

dark green: town
green: townlean
light blue: towny
grey: null
pink: scummy
orange: scumlean
red: scum

as you can see, my reads and nutella's reads disagree a lot.

oh.

so because we disagree I have to be scum?

no

no, because I and Pawn agree, and you disagree with both of us, you're scum. Your perspective of the game is not a town perspective. That or Pawn's pocketed me extremely hard, but I've barely interacted with him this game so I seriously doubt that.

[Evenstar]

What program do you use?

Inspiration

No, that's literally the name of the program.

[nutella]

Aight my reads aren't shit except my Iaafr one, Nutella is just scum

[VOTE: Nutella] aubergine

please explain what is happening

you are just reposting our read lists and coming to some conclusions without any explanation

I doublechecked my read list against pawn's because I know he's good at reading games, and usually does so fairly truthfully regardless of alignment. His reads agree with mine, and disagree with yours. That says I'm not just playing badly; you're scum.

let me get this straight

pawn's reads make me scum

???????

*confused math lady*

[nutella]

can someone with more Eva experience (read: has seen her as town) tell me if these absurd charts are a thing she does as town or not

You read me in finale, Nutella. I know you know better than this question. Why are you suddenly resorting to AtE instead of reading my damn posts and replying to them?

wrong I didn't read finale at all, sorry I know you're all disappointed in me

[nutella]

also how on earth am I resorting to ate lol I'm literally just trying to understand your thought process

[Evenstar]

Aight my reads aren't shit except my Iaafr one, Nutella is just scum

[VOTE: Nutella] aubergine

please explain what is happening

you are just reposting our read lists and coming to some conclusions without any explanation

I doublechecked my read list against pawn's because I know he's good at reading games, and usually does so fairly truthfully regardless of alignment. His reads agree with mine, and disagree with yours. That says I'm not just playing badly; you're scum.

let me get this straight

pawn's reads make me scum

???????

*confused math lady*

The fact that my reads agree with Pawn's but not yours say that I'm reading the game correctly and you're reading the game incorrectly. Scum have strong reason to read the game incorrectly. Therefore you are either scum or incompetent, and I don't think of you as an incompetent player. Nor have you twigged me as playing unusually badly this game.

[Benson]

Aight my reads aren't shit except my Iaafr one, Nutella is just scum

[VOTE: Nutella] aubergine

please explain what is happening

you are just reposting our read lists and coming to some conclusions without any explanation

I doublechecked my read list against pawn's because I know he's good at reading games, and usually does so fairly truthfully regardless of alignment. His reads agree with mine, and disagree with yours. That says I'm not just playing badly; you're scum.

OK, this honestly sounds like very towny progression.

[nutella]

can someone with more Eva experience (read: has seen her as town) tell me if these absurd charts are a thing she does as town or not

Evenstar produced very convoluted charts to track ITAs in Dragongard, and had another kind of chart on day 1 of the Mafia Championship Finale. They do appear to progress towards less clutter. Evenstar played town-aligned in both games.

ok thank you. I think she's likely town then just wildly misguided

[nutella]

can someone with more Eva experience (read: has seen her as town) tell me if these absurd charts are a thing she does as town or not

She makes charts all the time regardless of alignment. There's many things she does that are AI, this isn't one of them.

fair. I don't remember her making charts in wc1 though

[sprityo]

"Because im A and Pawn is A, and you are B means youre not A and therefore mafia"

is a shit argument, sorry to say

[nutella]

can someone with more Eva experience (read: has seen her as town) tell me if these absurd charts are a thing she does as town or not

And hm. Would it be angleshooting to check spec chat if she spectated D1 of finals? Since Eva did a lot of them there so if she watched that game she shouldn't be asking this question as town.

I didn't

[sprityo]

That'd make more sense in "Im wolf, and my teammate here who is also a wolf shares my reads, therefore you not wolf and are town"

[Evenstar]

can someone with more Eva experience (read: has seen her as town) tell me if these absurd charts are a thing she does as town or not

She makes charts all the time regardless of alignment. There's many things she does that are AI, this isn't one of them.

fair. I don't remember her making charts in wc1 though

they're usually too much effort when I'm scum

sometimes I do them as SoD wallposts, but if I'm having to manage wolfchat at the same time I don't usually have the WIM.

[nutella]

this diagram says I'm misreading this game badly somehow, 'cause either nutella is scum or my reads are shit

leaning towards my reads are shit

pls halp no speak

Arrows indicate read given by person in the center
Background color of the bubble is my read

dark green: town
green: townlean
light blue: towny
grey: null
pink: scummy
orange: scumlean
red: scum

as you can see, my reads and nutella's reads disagree a lot.

oh.

so because we disagree I have to be scum?

no

no, because I and Pawn agree, and you disagree with both of us, you're scum. Your perspective of the game is not a town perspective. That or Pawn's pocketed me extremely hard, but I've barely interacted with him this game so I seriously doubt that.

So your logic is because I disagree with two other townies (and I'm not even convinced pawn is one) then I can't possibly be town.

You've played this game before so what is this bullshit

[Benson]

Aight my reads aren't shit except my Iaafr one, Nutella is just scum

[VOTE: Nutella] aubergine

please explain what is happening

you are just reposting our read lists and coming to some conclusions without any explanation

I doublechecked my read list against pawn's because I know he's good at reading games, and usually does so fairly truthfully regardless of alignment. His reads agree with mine, and disagree with yours. That says I'm not just playing badly; you're scum.

OK, this honestly sounds like very towny progression.

Not that I necessarily agree with it. But it feels real.

[sprityo]

it's okay dont mind me, you keep on doing your thing nutella, evenstar

[nutella]

Aight my reads aren't shit except my Iaafr one, Nutella is just scum

[VOTE: Nutella] aubergine

please explain what is happening

you are just reposting our read lists and coming to some conclusions without any explanation

I doublechecked my read list against pawn's because I know he's good at reading games, and usually does so fairly truthfully regardless of alignment. His reads agree with mine, and disagree with yours. That says I'm not just playing badly; you're scum.

let me get this straight

pawn's reads make me scum

???????

*confused math lady*

The fact that my reads agree with Pawn's but not yours say that I'm reading the game correctly and you're reading the game incorrectly. Scum have strong reason to read the game incorrectly. Therefore you are either scum or incompetent, and I don't think of you as an incompetent player. Nor have you twigged me as playing unusually badly this game.

This is such garbage lol. Why are pawn's reads "correct" this is so egotistical. And sure maybe my reads are wrong, like I said I'm not feeling very strongly about a lot of them. Give me a goddamn break.

[Evenstar]

That'd make more sense in "Im wolf, and my teammate here who is also a wolf shares my reads, therefore you not wolf and are town"

I'm too lazy to go get the walter white gif but yeah no that's not how this works. Wolves are encouraged to be differently wrong so that coordination doesn't become obvious.

[nutella]

"Because im A and Pawn is A, and you are B means youre not A and therefore mafia"

is a shit argument, sorry to say

Fucking thank you

[Evenstar]

Aight my reads aren't shit except my Iaafr one, Nutella is just scum

[VOTE: Nutella] aubergine

please explain what is happening

you are just reposting our read lists and coming to some conclusions without any explanation

I doublechecked my read list against pawn's because I know he's good at reading games, and usually does so fairly truthfully regardless of alignment. His reads agree with mine, and disagree with yours. That says I'm not just playing badly; you're scum.

let me get this straight

pawn's reads make me scum

???????

*confused math lady*

The fact that my reads agree with Pawn's but not yours say that I'm reading the game correctly and you're reading the game incorrectly. Scum have strong reason to read the game incorrectly. Therefore you are either scum or incompetent, and I don't think of you as an incompetent player. Nor have you twigged me as playing unusually badly this game.

This is such garbage lol. Why are pawn's reads "correct" this is so egotistical. And sure maybe my reads are wrong, like I said I'm not feeling very strongly about a lot of them. Give me a goddamn break.

Pawn's reads are correct because he's good at mafia. The fact they largely-but-not-entirely agree with mine also helps.