The Syndicate

timmer wrote:Yes

Epignosis wrote:No.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I note that Golden was killed by both the SK and Sleep. Sleep being one of them is curious, since the original killing mafioso is Moya. Sleep inherits the kill if Moya dies. This would seem to be an indicator that Moya is dead, which raises questions: who among the corpses could it have been? Only Vompatti has an unrevealed role, so if he's Moya that means the SK had a Night 1 kill.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:If that's the case, perhaps the SK is activated by some manner of day phase mechanism (i.e. receiving a vote or something similar).

The only other explanation I can think of would be a seemer among the lynched townies, something which would seem to be discounted by the lack of a "[secrets]" attached to the Moya role. Otherwise perhaps there's an explanation in the [secrets] of the Sleep role.

Ricochet wrote:

Spoiler: show

Ricochet wrote:

Spoiler: show

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Dom wrote:Why are we criticizing the approach Epi is taking to the game when MP initially took the very same approach?

I can only speak for myself, but I am not criticizing Epi for playing POE. I think POE can be a very effective method. My concern with Epi is that his conduct late in lynches and immediately after lynches don't look entirely sincere: he is doing just little enough to ensure lynches don't change, and then casting suspicion upon those who voted in those lynches. I am unconvinced he has a sincere desire to move the lynches off of the people he has defended, because if he did truly want that -- he'd be providing names to move those votes to. Epignosis knows how to influence vote movement, I've seen him do it many times. This kind of half effort is not representative of that.

Dom wrote:

triceratopzeuhl wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Good or Helpful = Lynching Civilians and Threatening to Vote Another One for Not Being Good or Helpful

see he even admits it

.....?
?!!?!

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'm putting a vote on Scotty.

Scotty wrote:The other game has ended so I'm putting more focus here.

Not surprised to find JJJ, who I called bad with my 1st post of the game, as voting for me. I assume it's because I haven't been around to answer. Or he's just bad. Can't tell yet.

triceratopzeuhl wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'm putting a vote on Scotty.

What is your reason for this?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'm going to restate my primary Scotty beefs for Scotty himself whenever he is available.

Spoiler: show

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:~ Scotty's efforts to communicate with Golden and facilitate his involvement in the continuing dialogue was a decent look. I was able to work with the methods they employed myself, though perhaps with less clarity. I appreciate that he provided Golden with a forum to convey his reads when at the time I believe he was not in Golden's good graces. I do have some lingering concern though primarily centered in one post:

Scotty wrote:

Golden wrote:I don't really have time to do a full catch up, just enough to see that (I assume) inh was good.

I don't much like the epi votes. Except maybe trice's one.

I also really don't like scotty basically being like 'told you guys'. Calling your shot on someone being civilian is the easiest thing to do in the world since a) most people are and b) all baddies have an even higher percentage shot of being right (in this case 15/16); but

c) bragging about it afterwards is the equivalent of discrediting a load of people, even when at least half of them are town, and d) not only does it discredit, but it also puts the focus squarely on 'who voted for a civilian to die' instead of 'who is bad' which are not necessarily the same thing.

I'll be all for looking to see if any inh votes are uninspired. But when I last looked, there were four and all of them felt fair and well explained in the thread to me.

What??! How is "well there ya go" in any way "I told you guys"? How is that bragging about it? Show me where I bragged about you all being wrong.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth and manipulating this away from you and the other INH voters so you don't have to take responsibility for your votes. Yes, civs make the wrong votes all the time. Of course they do. But I already feel like you, JJJ, Sloonei and Mp have all come after me on day 1 for bullsuit reasons and I find it manipulative. Couple that with the fact that I don't trust you guys, makes me think at least 1 or a couple of you might be bad. Just because I haven't had a tennis match where I've spewed 5028 posts in the matter of 24 hours doesn't mean I can't make reads off of votes.

I didn't know INH was gonna flip good, but I definitely didn't think he would flip bad. So get off your high horse, golden.

Love, Scotty

Yellow: hyperbolic/exaggerated language looks insincere at face value.

Orange: this is an accusation, and it implies to me that Scotty is suspicious of Golden now for two reasons: contributing to the INH lynch, and "manipulating the conversation away from INH voters". This is something Scotty didn't follow up on, and that makes me question the motive for cramming it into this response in the first place. I think the suspicion inherent in this language is pretty clear, and that he didn't proceed with it (indeed he became Golden's communicative aid in Day 2) raises doubts that it was honest. The alternative explanation is less ideal: that he turned Golden's accusation against him as a defense mechanism with intent to discredit his accuser.

I would also assert the orange bit and the second yellow bit go together awkwardly. If Golden is on a "high horse", that would imply he is overconfident about a read, not falsifying a read. The difference is important, as it relates directly to alignment.

Green: this just has its own discrediting power given its vaguely critical language.

Scotty, please talk about those things.

Spoiler: show

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I could also consider voting for Scotty.

Scotty wrote:I'm way behind everyone. Like 12 pages behind. Looks like no one died?

Will Do my best to catch up.

Scotty wrote:I'm still not caught up. 5 or so more pages to read.. I see JJJ has a little case breakdown that I skimmed. Eventually I'll get around to answering it.

I never said my vote was forced. LoRab decided that. I have calmed my jets on a few people I had recently suspected. I'm actually feeling better about Golden, and Mp. I think BWT is still suspicious? Why? I forgot. But he said some stuff some some time ago that was phrased in a weird way that perked uo ym ears like Pluto. Sloon is on neutral ground. Slight mafia still on JJJ. I don't think he was faking his curse, I just think his curser was just unimaginative.

I'm way behind. Long day, may not get around to this until tomorrow at the earliest. Blech my mafia time where did it go???

To fall behind sometimes is understandable. Life happens. However, I don't get the impression Scotty has much urgency to involve himself in this game even as he makes the attempt to catch up. He has given us a live-track of his status (12 pages behind, 5 pages behind), but in the process of that catchup his productivity has been scarce. I would think a town Scotty would be grabbing quotes as he reads along and sharing some kind of thoughts instead of this sort of one-off neutral commentary on what he needs to do and a few half-reads.

If Sleep kills, he cannot use his regular power during the same Night

triceratopzeuhl wrote:Is it that he hasn't answered this post?

Vompatti wrote:Sloonei confirmed for civilian.

Vompatti wrote:

Sloonei wrote:are votes changeable?

didn't you read the rules?

Vompatti wrote:

Sloonei wrote:Over 1000 posts before Day 2. Way to go, team.

Would you believe me if I told you I wouldn't mind the mafia and/or serial killer killing all the high posters so the rest of us can keep up?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:It looks like Epignosis is working on the theory that Vompatti was Moya, and is looking for connections -- revealing an inordinate focus on Sloonei in his posts. Epi please confirm or deny in your code.

Another thing that occurs to me now: Vompatti being bad and killed Night 1 could be attributed to the Motherfucker = Redeemer role. Each odd night, one in that pair checks a living player. If the living player is mafia there's a 50% chance it'll kill that mafioso.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:It looks like Epignosis is working on the theory that Vompatti was Moya, and is looking for connections -- revealing an inordinate focus on Sloonei in his posts. Epi please confirm or deny in your code.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: trice -- He wasn't as hard on Vompatti for perceived irrelevant content as he was on others (Epi and A Person). He called him a spambot and left it at that. That's not ideal.

triceratopzeuhl wrote:BWT, boomslang, lorab, nijuukyugou all haven't checked in day 4 yet, there might not be any silence target though

triceratopzeuhl wrote:Sig: rico was brought over from progarchives (not a mafia website) a few years ago by MP, same as me, epignosis, BWT, and A Person

Golden targeted by mafia twice in 3 nights, seems they didn't like what he's been saying.

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:This Fellow [JJJ -ed] is Not a Civilian

I did not like his reasons for being against the Marmot vote. He broke the tie, and it amounted to him claiming that MP and I only suspected him because he suspected us, which was chronologically inaccurate. It was almost like a brush aside.

I could see a Marmot/Jay team. Heck, I could see a Marmot/Jay/Dom team.

Golden wrote:Or maybe Marmot is an innocent bystander.

In any event, epi, I agree about Jay. He worries me. I feel like there is a lack of fire in his opinions. His whole game feels - clockwork, like a man calculating the impact of each post. I can't describe it any other way. He's always bothered me a little but in this lynch it felt much stronger than just tinfoil.

I could see him being NK'd once as a possible misdirect kill, but both mafia and SK trying to kill him implies they were uncomfortable with his reads

Also as per my earlier theory, if one of the insanifiers is civ then that player at least thinks JJJ is bad. I wonder if the role also has an info-getting element? As me and MP have both said this game, civ insanifier use could be reckless if you end up removing teammates' ability to communicate

triceratopzeuhl wrote:biggest change in Golden's theories over the course of day 3 was JJJ from Moderate Town & less likely than sloonei to be bad, to worried about JJJ

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: trice -- He wasn't as hard on Vompatti for perceived irrelevant content as he was on others (Epi and A Person). He called him a spambot and left it at that. That's not ideal.

The people who didn't mention Vompatti while he was alive -- I'm not inclined to read into this. Generally speaking, there's not much to say about him given the way he plays. He's just a presence.

triceratopzeuhl wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: trice -- He wasn't as hard on Vompatti for perceived irrelevant content as he was on others (Epi and A Person). He called him a spambot and left it at that. That's not ideal.

The people who didn't mention Vompatti while he was alive -- I'm not inclined to read into this. Generally speaking, there's not much to say about him given the way he plays. He's just a presence.

unironically posting these two lines one after another - you admit there's nothing to say about how vompatti plays but think it's suspicious that I didn't have anything to say about how he plays

triceratopzeuhl wrote:every mafia game I've ever played iirc

triceratopzeuhl wrote:and even if I hadn't, you assume every other person is familiar with his play but me, very disingenuous

sig wrote:So N1 Vomp died, we see nothing from him
N2 no death
N3 Golden being killed by Sleep and the SK

So one theory is that the SK was the target N2 and being targeted for Nightkilling activated his power
Mafia/SK missed the kill N2
Kill was blocked

N1 is tricky we have no data on who killed Vomp or his role, so he could in theory have been Moya killed by the SK, I find this to be unlikely.


A Person
Wilgy
INH

are all dead, there is no secret near Moya, however Mladic is one big secret. If we think there was shenanigans I'd bet it was caused by him. Here is the issue though we have no proof whatsoever unless one of these three roles flip again to know if there is a seemer like role. I do think we can gather that we're one mafia down, but who it is we have no clue.

Vompatti wrote:wtf

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Dom wrote:Why are we criticizing the approach Epi is taking to the game when MP initially took the very same approach?

I can only speak for myself, but I am not criticizing Epi for playing POE. I think POE can be a very effective method. My concern with Epi is that his conduct late in lynches and immediately after lynches don't look entirely sincere: he is doing just little enough to ensure lynches don't change, and then casting suspicion upon those who voted in those lynches. I am unconvinced he has a sincere desire to move the lynches off of the people he has defended, because if he did truly want that -- he'd be providing names to move those votes to. Epignosis knows how to influence vote movement, I've seen him do it many times. This kind of half effort is not representative of that.

triceratopzeuhl wrote:

Dom wrote:

triceratopzeuhl wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Good or Helpful = Lynching Civilians and Threatening to Vote Another One for Not Being Good or Helpful

see he even admits it

.....?
?!!?!

Imagine reading this and thinking it was a serious post

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

sig wrote:So N1 Vomp died, we see nothing from him
N2 no death
N3 Golden being killed by Sleep and the SK

So one theory is that the SK was the target N2 and being targeted for Nightkilling activated his power
Mafia/SK missed the kill N2
Kill was blocked

N1 is tricky we have no data on who killed Vomp or his role, so he could in theory have been Moya killed by the SK, I find this to be unlikely.


A Person
Wilgy
INH

are all dead, there is no secret near Moya, however Mladic is one big secret. If we think there was shenanigans I'd bet it was caused by him. Here is the issue though we have no proof whatsoever unless one of these three roles flip again to know if there is a seemer like role. I do think we can gather that we're one mafia down, but who it is we have no clue.

sig, could you clarify why you believe it's unlikely Vompatti was Moya?

Dom wrote:what does slightly unlikely mean?

Dom wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Dom wrote:Why are we criticizing the approach Epi is taking to the game when MP initially took the very same approach?

I can only speak for myself, but I am not criticizing Epi for playing POE. I think POE can be a very effective method. My concern with Epi is that his conduct late in lynches and immediately after lynches don't look entirely sincere: he is doing just little enough to ensure lynches don't change, and then casting suspicion upon those who voted in those lynches. I am unconvinced he has a sincere desire to move the lynches off of the people he has defended, because if he did truly want that -- he'd be providing names to move those votes to. Epignosis knows how to influence vote movement, I've seen him do it many times. This kind of half effort is not representative of that.

I think Epig has done an excellent job of illuminating the flaws in POE.

triceratopzeuhl wrote:

Dom wrote:

triceratopzeuhl wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Good or Helpful = Lynching Civilians and Threatening to Vote Another One for Not Being Good or Helpful

see he even admits it

.....?
?!!?!

Imagine reading this and thinking it was a serious post

imagine making that post and then you ignore the other point i made because you were hoping to deligitimize me by making fun of me.
just like when you called epig stupid.

triceratopzeuhl wrote:Dom posting the same way I'm criticizing JJJ and epignosis for - deliberately misleading when not outright lies in their accusations. Wouldn't be surprised if all three are bad, civvies can and do play honest the way virtually everybody else has been

triceratopzeuhl wrote:Sig: rico was brought over from progarchives (not a mafia website) a few years ago by MP, same as me, epignosis, BWT, and A Person

Golden targeted by mafia twice in 3 nights, seems they didn't like what he's been saying.

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:This Fellow [JJJ -ed] is Not a Civilian

I did not like his reasons for being against the Marmot vote. He broke the tie, and it amounted to him claiming that MP and I only suspected him because he suspected us, which was chronologically inaccurate. It was almost like a brush aside.

I could see a Marmot/Jay team. Heck, I could see a Marmot/Jay/Dom team.

Golden wrote:Or maybe Marmot is an innocent bystander.

In any event, epi, I agree about Jay. He worries me. I feel like there is a lack of fire in his opinions. His whole game feels - clockwork, like a man calculating the impact of each post. I can't describe it any other way. He's always bothered me a little but in this lynch it felt much stronger than just tinfoil.

I could see him being NK'd once as a possible misdirect kill, but both mafia and SK trying to kill him implies they were uncomfortable with his reads

Also as per my earlier theory, if one of the insanifiers is civ then that player at least thinks JJJ is bad. I wonder if the role also has an info-getting element? As me and MP have both said this game, civ insanifier use could be reckless if you end up removing teammates' ability to communicate

triceratopzeuhl wrote:biggest change in Golden's theories over the course of day 3 was JJJ from Moderate Town & less likely than sloonei to be bad, to worried about JJJ

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: Some players view this differently so it's not the sole point I'm considering, but I do think baddies are more obsessed with answering every accusation than townies are in general. I have gotten into trouble as a bad guy myself for this before.

triceratopzeuhl wrote:BWT, boomslang, lorab, nijuukyugou all haven't checked in day 4 yet, there might not be any silence target though

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

LoRab wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:The trend continues with LoRab: limited opportunities to play the game are spent in self-defense.

And if people keep accusing me, what exactly do you expect me to do?

Also, you seem to ignore that I actually said new things in my last post.

Some players view this differently so it's not the sole point I'm considering, but I do think baddies are more obsessed with answering every accusation than townies are in general. I have gotten into trouble as a bad guy myself for this before.

The new things you said were about a dead player.

I'm going to leave our dialogue here for now. Do with your time whatever you feel is best.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'm putting a vote on Scotty.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Dom wrote:Why are we criticizing the approach Epi is taking to the game when MP initially took the very same approach?

I can only speak for myself, but I am not criticizing Epi for playing POE. I think POE can be a very effective method. My concern with Epi is that his conduct late in lynches and immediately after lynches don't look entirely sincere: he is doing just little enough to ensure lynches don't change, and then casting suspicion upon those who voted in those lynches. I am unconvinced he has a sincere desire to move the lynches off of the people he has defended, because if he did truly want that -- he'd be providing names to move those votes to. Epignosis knows how to influence vote movement, I've seen him do it many times. This kind of half effort is not representative of that.

triceratopzeuhl wrote:JJJ why do you refuse to comment on this?

triceratopzeuhl wrote:Dom posting the same way I'm criticizing JJJ and epignosis for - deliberately misleading when not outright lies in their accusations. Wouldn't be surprised if all three are bad, civvies can and do play honest the way virtually everybody else has been

LoRab wrote:Meh. Although I still say he wasn't playing a civ role in a particularly helpful way to the civ cause, so I'm not particularly bothered by the result as non mafia lynches go.

Epignosis wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Golden wrote:I'll admit that I have no suspicions that are particularly strong, though. I feel like I have a lot more town reads than I do baddie reads.

Generally agreed. Even without a concerted effort to employ POE, I find myself doing it by accident. The suspicions I have voiced lately are my most substantive, but I don't boast the confidence in those reads I would like for a Day 3. Even still the town reads aren't extremely confident; I get the impression that reads are more likely to gravitate toward the gray center in a survival-oriented game. That mindset permeates the thread in a tangible way. I have only played in a couple like this though.

This Fellow is Not a Civilian