The Flash: Battle for the Gem Cities (Day 12)

[thellama73]

Oooooh, Mp said you have a conventional mindset. Fighting words.

[Tangrowth]

I'm not addressing S~V~S with the conventional mindset accusation, I'm addressing practically every player in this game, including FZ., timmer, and others.

I really just wonder if we can all stop the "I'm so civvie" act and be honest with how this game is set up. It's all a lie and we all know it. There are only a couple of Old Rogues roles remaining, and they are only a faction that most fits the conventional idea of what a civilian is (but a "civilian" faction relies on having a majority, which isn't what this game is about), and the vast majority of players this game either have strictly neutral or hidden objectives.

[Tangrowth]

I know I will likely be lynched because I'm telling the truth, which is absurd, but then so be it. I am playing this game the way that it seems to be designed to be played, which is unconventionally.

[Marmot]

Are you trustworthy Sock Head?

[thellama73]

I know I will likely be lynched because I'm telling the truth, which is absurd, but then so be it. I am playing this game the way that it seems to be designed to be played, which is unconventionally.

I like your moxie, Sock! I might change my vote again, but I'm afraid SVS will yell at me some more. I don't like being yelled at.

[Marmot]

I changed my vote to Llama because thellama73 is the only confirmed role.

[Tangrowth]

Are you trustworthy Sock Head?

Sure, but only if I believe I can trust your intentions.

And may it be known that I'm not 'going after' Old Rogues or anything of the sort. I am merely pointing out what I thought was evident -- that the Old Rogues are NOT civilians and that they are merely a faction most similar to a conventional faction dubbed civilians.

Only once we all drop the "I'm civilian!!!" act can we truly play this game the way it should be being played right now, in my opinion. If you disagree, then by all means, feel free to vote me out. I won't be sour about it. I just would rather not play this game with everyone claiming to be a civilian and playing it from that perspective because I believe there's no reason to play this game in that fashion.

[Tangrowth]

I will consider voting out Soneji because he clearly isn't helping anyone, but for the time being, I'd rather vote out players that are willingly lying about being "civilian" and who seem to be contradicting their own stated intentions because I believe it indicates that they cannot be trusted.

[thellama73]

Only once we all drop the "I'm civilian!!!" act can we truly play this game the way it should be being played right now, in my opinion. If you disagree, then by all means, feel free to vote me out. I won't be sour about it. I just would rather not play this game with everyone claiming to be a civilian and playing it from that perspective because I believe there's no reason to play this game in that fashion.

I'm not a civilian, I'm the Flash, baby.

I'm also changing my vote to MM.

[Turnip Head]

Are you trustworthy Sock Head?

Sure, but only if I believe I can trust your intentions.

And may it be known that I'm not 'going after' Old Rogues or anything of the sort. I am merely pointing out what I thought was evident -- that the Old Rogues are NOT civilians and that they are merely a faction most similar to a conventional faction dubbed civilians.

Only once we all drop the "I'm civilian!!!" act can we truly play this game the way it should be being played right now, in my opinion. If you disagree, then by all means, feel free to vote me out. I won't be sour about it. I just would rather not play this game with everyone claiming to be a civilian and playing it from that perspective because I believe there's no reason to play this game in that fashion.

How should the game be played right now? Which faction should people be claiming? Which faction should we be voting out?

[Marmot]

Are you trustworthy Sock Head?

Sure, but only if I believe I can trust your intentions.

Why does your belief of my intentions dictate your general trustworthiness?

[Marmot]

I don't see how the different types of Rogues splitting into "factions" well help each other take out the common enemies.

[Tangrowth]

Are you trustworthy Sock Head?

Sure, but only if I believe I can trust your intentions.

And may it be known that I'm not 'going after' Old Rogues or anything of the sort. I am merely pointing out what I thought was evident -- that the Old Rogues are NOT civilians and that they are merely a faction most similar to a conventional faction dubbed civilians.

Only once we all drop the "I'm civilian!!!" act can we truly play this game the way it should be being played right now, in my opinion. If you disagree, then by all means, feel free to vote me out. I won't be sour about it. I just would rather not play this game with everyone claiming to be a civilian and playing it from that perspective because I believe there's no reason to play this game in that fashion.

How should the game be played right now? Which faction should people be claiming? Which faction should we be voting out?

Does it not make sense for everyone to appear as neutral as possible, i.e., Independent Rogues? It makes no sense to claim Old Rogues, especially at this stage in the game, as it merely sets the game up to be an "Us v. Them" mentality when such a thing is unnecessary and unnatural. Conventional mafia games thrive on this because the civilians have majority and are peaceful, trying to avoid death by the "few" mafia. But this game has just as many strictly neutral roles as "civilian" roles to start with, so how could that dynamic even hold in the slightest?

The Detectives could be argued to make the "civilian" number 9, but that is NOT the case. The Detectives may even, in the words of the host "choose to imprison the Old Rogues as well, but it is not required." Even if that wasn't the case, 9 "civilians" with loosely tied objectives and accompanying a neutral team of 6 still change the dynamic of this game.

Essentially, this is a faction game where factions have a certain set of objectives they must accomplish. For example, the New and Old Rogues need certain other factions dead, but the Independent Rogues merely need to survive. The remaining factions have hidden objectives.

The New Rogues are still the common enemy, but the Independent Rogues, of which there are six, don't need them dead.

People shouldn't be "claiming" anything. This game all comes down to wheeling and dealing, in the end, and eliminating the serial killer as well as any other common enemies. It's a very intriguing mix of 50% LMS and 50% mafia game in that regard. Consequently, it all comes down to how players present themselves in terms of trust and how they choose to play the game.

For example, as I stated previously, I believe S~V~S has been transparently contradictory in her intentions, since she stated her lynch would result in "one less Old Rogue role that timmer can claim", all the while denouncing timmer as a liar yet recently backing off of that. How can you trust someone like that? I'm a bit wary of timmer and Bass for similar Old Rogue claims, but they haven't exhibited as contradictory behavior as S~V~S has.

[Tangrowth]

Are you trustworthy Sock Head?

Sure, but only if I believe I can trust your intentions.

Why does your belief of my intentions dictate your general trustworthiness?

Why would it not?

People vote other people out in mafia games all the time if they don't believe they are trustworthy. That's the point. That is one of the few major principles that is not different in this game.

If I don't trust you, then you can bet I'll be hostile toward you, which would result in you not trusting me.

I'm playing to weed out the players I don't think I can trust, because while this game has the illusion of a conventional mafia setup, when it comes down to the wire, it will become increasingly LMS. It's very much like Monopoly in that way.

[Marmot]

SVS said "one less civvie" not "one less Old Rogue".

And why would you want players to act more "neutral" and less "civvie"? Wouldn't that make the line between civvies and baddies even hazier and harder to determine?

[Tangrowth]

SVS said "one less civvie" not "one less Old Rogue".

And why would you want players to act more "neutral" and less "civvie"? Wouldn't that make the line between civvies and baddies even hazier and harder to determine?

Fair enough, I was paraphrasing since I couldn't remember the exact wording, but those are synonymous in terms of how people are using them, yes?

I don't understand. There are no civvies and baddies this game. If we act as though there are, we only are lying to ourselves.

[Marmot]

Are you trustworthy Sock Head?

Sure, but only if I believe I can trust your intentions.

Why does your belief of my intentions dictate your general trustworthiness?

Why would it not?

People vote other people out in mafia games all the time if they don't believe they are trustworthy. That's the point. That is one of the few major principles that is not different in this game.

If I don't trust you, then you can bet I'll be hostile toward you, which would result in you not trusting me.

I'm playing to weed out the players I don't think I can trust, because while this game has the illusion of a conventional mafia setup, when it comes down to the wire, it will become increasingly LMS. It's very much like Monopoly in that way.

But it's not LMS.

The Old Rogues must eliminate Grodd and the New Rogues.

The Indy Rogues must survive

The Detectives must eliminate the New Rogues, and uncover the mystery of the gem cities.



These three teams do not need each other dead to win.

[Tangrowth]

I never said it was LMS. I've been saying over and over that it's a 50/50 hybrid. I said, over time, the game becomes increasingly LMS.

The fact that the teams don't need each other dead to win supports my viewpoint of the game.

The only straight up mafia team is perhaps the New Rogues, since they need every other faction dead, but they also have 6 potential allies in the Independent Rogues, as well as their fellow New Rogues. They're almost just as "civilian" as Old Rogues then, yes?

[Tangrowth]

I can't help it if other people aren't viewing the game the way I am. I am viewing the game for what it is. If you don't view it that way, vote me out.

[Turnip Head]

What do you think of Daisy, MP? Any idea why she hasn't been posting lately? Any idea why she survived being lynched on Day 3?

[Turnip Head]

Nevermind I looked back and I guess she has family visiting atm. Still, any idea why she survived?

[Marmot]

I never said it was LMS. I've been saying over and over that it's a 50/50 hybrid. I said, over time, the game becomes increasingly LMS.

The fact that the teams don't need each other dead to win supports my viewpoint of the game.

The only straight up mafia team is perhaps the New Rogues, since they need every other faction dead, but they also have 6 potential allies in the Independent Rogues, as well as their fellow New Rogues. They're almost just as "civilian" as Old Rogues then, yes?

Don't you see the problem with this statement? Are the Independent Rogues not a faction?

[Tangrowth]

I don't know what to think of her. I have no thoughts on her, at the moment, really. I thought the d3 survival was Aces, not Daisy, based on the fact that the host post indicated it was Aces, as well as Aces's role reveal (I believe he caused the alternative d3 when he survived the original d3).

I do know that RL is a major factor for her, since she has been very busy alongside me entertaining her family this weekend, as well as working 9 straight days in a row (whereas I have been busy with school).

[timmer]

Everyone, let me just start by saying I'm sorry for how shit I've been playing. It's been a stressful few days and I've let it make my play sloppy and cheap.

That said, MP, I think this IS a faction game, but it is NOT an LMS game. It won't ever get to be a true LMS game, i don't think. And you're right, wrapping oneself in the civvie flag is kind of pointless (and again,kind of cheap on my part... I get that way when I'm distracted, I'm well aware).

It all comes down to who is lying to the thread, and that's where my current paralysis comes from. I have lost trust in the things i thought I knew, and as such I don't know what to think.

My thoughts are going out to your niece, SVS, that sounds like a horrible time over there

[Tangrowth]

I never said it was LMS. I've been saying over and over that it's a 50/50 hybrid. I said, over time, the game becomes increasingly LMS.

The fact that the teams don't need each other dead to win supports my viewpoint of the game.

The only straight up mafia team is perhaps the New Rogues, since they need every other faction dead, but they also have 6 potential allies in the Independent Rogues, as well as their fellow New Rogues. They're almost just as "civilian" as Old Rogues then, yes?

Don't you see the problem with this statement? Are the Independent Rogues not a faction?

THE INDEPENDENT ROGUES (6)

These characters wish to continue their schemes without being bothered. They will win simply by surviving until the end of the game.

Your interpretation of the New Rogues' hostility to the Independent Rogues would be contradictory.

[Marmot]

I can't help it if other people aren't viewing the game the way I am. I am viewing the game for what it is. If you don't view it that way, vote me out.

No you're not. Nowhere does it say that this game will become increasingly LMS. Nowhere does it say that there are no civilians in this game. You are trying to re-describe this game into something that it is not.

[Tangrowth]

Everyone, let me just start by saying I'm sorry for how shit I've been playing. It's been a stressful few days and I've let it make my play sloppy and cheap.

That said, MP, I think this IS a faction game, but it is NOT an LMS game. It won't ever get to be a true LMS game, i don't think. And you're right, wrapping oneself in the civvie flag is kind of pointless (and again,kind of cheap on my part... I get that way when I'm distracted, I'm well aware).

It all comes down to who is lying to the thread, and that's where my current paralysis comes from. I have lost trust in the things i thought I knew, and as such I don't know what to think.

My thoughts are going out to your niece, SVS, that sounds like a horrible time over there

This is a very good point. I do not wish to say this game ever will be true LMS. What I am saying is that elements of LMS wheeling and dealing become more prevalent as the game progresses, which is an inevitable product of it being a faction game. Thanks for stating it better than I was.

[Tangrowth]

I can't help it if other people aren't viewing the game the way I am. I am viewing the game for what it is. If you don't view it that way, vote me out.

No you're not. Nowhere does it say that this game will become increasingly LMS. Nowhere does it say that there are no civilians in this game. You are trying to re-describe this game into something that it is not.

Yes, it does though, MM.

THE OLD ROGUES (6)

Their roles are as close to a "Civilian" Option that will exist in this game. They may be thieves and robbers, but they have a code of morals. As such, their only win conditions are to eliminate the vile New Rogues and stop Gorilla Grodd's rampage. If Grodd is dead, the New Rogues are dead, and any Old Rogues survive, they win the game.

MR specifically states it is "as close to a civilian option that will exist".

To proclaim there are civvies and baddies this game is to not understand the game's setup.

If you disagree with me, vote me out.

[Tangrowth]

Civilians cannot work if there are only 6 of them, if the "mafia" team also has 6, and there also are 6 neutral roles. MM, how can you not see that?

[Tangrowth]

Excuse me, mafia team has 7, not 6.

[Tangrowth]

I've said what I've needed to on the matter. I really need to get back to SAS coding. I will return at some point before the vote ends, or will try my best to, to reevaluate my vote. For now, I'm keeping it where it is for previously stated reasons.

As I've said, please vote me out of this game if we're going to continue pulling the "I'm so civvie!!!" act because I don't want to play this game that way. For those of you who are willing to approach this game like the semi-unconventional game that it is, especially now that we're in d5, then please consider and vote for the person you believe can be least trusted.

[S~V~S]

Yeah, I think you should vote me. MP is so right about me, like he always is. I switched my vote. Maybe then the few of you left that are civvies or that feel their win conditions are better aligned with the civvies, can see which way the wind blows.

[Marmot]

I give up trying to explain it MP.

I'm voting for him.

[Turnip Head]

Yeah, I think you should vote me. MP is so right about me, like he always is. I switched my vote. Maybe then the few of you left that are civvies or that feel their win conditions are better aligned with the civvies, can see which way the wind blows.

...What are you doing lol

This game got real weird today.

[Marmot]

Yeah, I think you should vote me. MP is so right about me, like he always is. I switched my vote. Maybe then the few of you left that are civvies or that feel their win conditions are better aligned with the civvies, can see which way the wind blows.

...What are you doing lol

This game got real weird today.

Who're you going to vote?

[Turnip Head]

Yeah, I think you should vote me. MP is so right about me, like he always is. I switched my vote. Maybe then the few of you left that are civvies or that feel their win conditions are better aligned with the civvies, can see which way the wind blows.

...What are you doing lol

This game got real weird today.

Who're you going to vote?

Probably MP. I mean I get what he's saying about this game being unconventional. But it feels like he's trying to push the Independents away from supporting the Old Rogues, and that seems like a New Rogue agenda. Or he's just a rogue Indy rogue gone rogue.

I also still think one of the replacements is doing the killing.

FWIW I found something just now that makes me think Daisy is trustworthy.

[S~V~S]

Yeah, I think you should vote me. MP is so right about me, like he always is. I switched my vote. Maybe then the few of you left that are civvies or that feel their win conditions are better aligned with the civvies, can see which way the wind blows.

...What are you doing lol

This game got real weird today.

Becasue I'm acting like a total yutz this game, and people who know better say I'm the baddie? I think I did one good thing this game, I will find out end game (maybe 2) but for the most part, i have sucked. Timmer has been poking at me since he subbed in, LC has been insinuating in my direction (and insinuating LC is bad LC, imo) most of the game, and then MP comes in and says things that he knows will get my Irish up, and basically says, "This is how *I* am interpreting the game. If you don't like it, lynch me". Awesome.

We did not get a role reveal on Roxy. I would prefer to have some control over my contribution to the game in this way. I would rather by lynched today than NKed tonight. So then even though I have sucked seriously as a civvie (yes, MP, I said the "C" word), my death will have some value this way. If someone I actually suspect looks to be lynched, I will consider changing my vote that way.

Linki, not sure if you saw what I did, but yeah, I don't distrust Daisy. Plus there would have been a lot more faux indignation that we tried to lynch her had she been bad. I will be back before the end to see which way the wind blows and potentially change my vote.

[Marmot]

Yeah, I think you should vote me. MP is so right about me, like he always is. I switched my vote. Maybe then the few of you left that are civvies or that feel their win conditions are better aligned with the civvies, can see which way the wind blows.

...What are you doing lol

This game got real weird today.

Who're you going to vote?

Probably MP. I mean I get what he's saying about this game being unconventional. But it feels like he's trying to push the Independents away from supporting the Old Rogues, and that seems like a New Rogue agenda. Or he's just a rogue Indy rogue gone rogue.

I also still think one of the replacements is doing the killing.

FWIW I found something just now that makes me think Daisy is trustworthy.

I feel similarly about Spacedaisy, and wouldn't be surprised if it came from the same place.

[Marmot]

This is now two games in a row that SVS has self-voted.

No really.

Don't mind me SVS. I'm just poking fun.

[timmer]

FTR, I do not believe SVS is a New Rogue, and I wouldn't recommend a lynch in that direction.

I could get behind a Sophie lynch I suppose, as she has been posting here and there but hasn't really contributed anything.

FZ seems cool. llama's obv cool. Rabbit and Long Con seem indy. I've got a beef with BR over the still absent reasons she thinks I mind controlled her.

[Marmot]

Abra Kadabra – He is a stage magician who uses futuristic technology to put on the greatest show on Earth. As such, he has a bevy of powers at his disposal. Once each, he can: ~~sa~~~~, ~~~~~-s~~~~~, r~~e ~~~~~, ~~~er s~ea~, SNUGGLE, s~r~~~e a ~~~~, s~r~~~e a ~~~~~, ~r res~rre~~ a~~~~er ~~a~er.

[Black Rock]

FTR, I do not believe SVS is a New Rogue, and I wouldn't recommend a lynch in that direction.

I could get behind a Sophie lynch I suppose, as she has been posting here and there but hasn't really contributed anything.

FZ seems cool. llama's obv cool. Rabbit and Long Con seem indy. I've got a beef with BR over the still absent reasons she thinks I mind controlled her.

Sorry, I had a house full of 6 year olds for my sons bday today, then when they left I had a house full of family. I'm exhausted. Plus I wanted to wait to hear from the host.

I was mind controlled last day. My mind control specifically said I had to build a case connecting Roxy and Aces. Easy enough, I already had suspicions of both. I didn't think much of it until this post...

I feel like a dumb player as well. In fact I had to go back and read things to understand what DH was talking about.

My view on the whole vouching thing was the way Roxy approached it in the thread. It seemed like she was leading up to a vote but keeping important info out. Then all of a sudden she was convinced Aces was good. If I'm remembering correctly I do believe Aces was a lynch subject and the lynch could have swayed that way. I believe they hid behind the map BTSC to cover up their baddie BTSC. The way she led into it flipped peoples opinions of Aces. It would be a grand scheme that Roxy is capable of.

That's exactly what she did, and she got help from a teammate. i realize that much of that day I was screaming and rambling in the thread like an idiot, but I think I was right on point. I didn't like Roxy's whole mystery btsc partner, and I didn't like how the clock was down to about four hours to lynch deadline and she was still saying but not saying anything. She was hedging, hedging, hedging, and then just as people started looking at her in a really negative light, there was Bass 2.0 vouching for her in a blatant way.

When I couple that with Roxy's claims the next day in map btsc and her lack of any attempt to dissuade me from a BF vote, it all becomes clear.

Also, either the New Rogues or the Arch Villains, whichever Roxy was part of, know my role (I didn't out myself but I sort of laid a trail), and it makes the fact that I'm taking on votes very interesting and clever on their part, in light of my role. I won't say more than that, but I'm very impressed with their moxie. (I'm not saying that anyone who votes for me is a New Rogue or an Arch Villains, just that I think much of this push is likely coming from there).

I probably wouldn't have been bothered by this post if it hadn't been for the second part of my mind control that specifically stopped me from suspecting Timmer all together.

Those two things along with the fact that I had suspected and voted for Timmer the day before have all lead me to believe that he was the player who mind controlled me.

[Tangrowth]

and then MP comes in and says things that he knows will get my Irish up,.

STOP saying this. I did no such thing. I am incredibly insulted that you said this once, let alone twice. Take it out of the thread if you have a problem with me, fellow Admin, who should know how the Mod on Duty function works.

I do NOT rile up people on purpose, ever. EVER. That is not me. As I said before, I had no idea anything I was going to say would rile you up. When you say this, you're implying heavily that I'm lying about that.

I am really insulted by you insinuating that not only once but twice. Don't make this game personal and keep this out of the thread.

[Tangrowth]

Probably MP. I mean I get what he's saying about this game being unconventional. But it feels like he's trying to push the Independents away from supporting the Old Rogues, and that seems like a New Rogue agenda. Or he's just a rogue Indy rogue gone rogue.

This is fair enough, but I specifically am not saying such a thing. I have not shown any favor for Old Rogues over New Rogues or vice versa.

[Black Rock]

*puts MP and SVS on a time out*

[Tangrowth]

I did not make this game personal. I think that can be made evidently clear. I even handled it well by saying she should take this out of the thread. Why she brought it up AGAIN in thread is beyond me.

[timmer]

@BR, thanks for fleshing that out, and I can sympathize on busy weekends.

So you were told to both make a case linking Roxy/Aces, AND to not suspect me? If that's true, I cannot wait for post-game to find out the strategy behind that, as it was not me.

Is there someone I was publicly supporting who Roxy and Aces were suspecting at the time? I'm going to have to read back and see, because that would be your spinning Top.

[Black Rock]

I did not make this game personal. I think that can be made evidently clear. I even handled it well by saying she should take this out of the thread. Why she brought it up AGAIN in thread is beyond me.

I didn't mean that, just trying to lighten the mood. It's a mom joke.

[Tangrowth]

Sorry, BR, I'm not upset. I just am trying to make it clear that I want the Mod on Duty function respected and I don't want to discuss that any more in this thread.

And I think what you propose on timmer is worth considering, since Grodd and Top are two roles that are antagonistic to all other factions.

That said, what convinces you that timmer isn't being framed? I'm not sure one way or the other.

I do find it particularly interesting, though, that timmer claimed Old Rogue and now seems to be backing away from that claim after my posts today.

[thellama73]

I did not make this game personal. I think that can be made evidently clear. I even handled it well by saying she should take this out of the thread. Why she brought it up AGAIN in thread is beyond me.

Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!