Mafia Championship Scrimmage [END]

[Matt]

That dude Frog had 194 posts! I see he also wanted Marmot gone, but not quite sure why, I've only read the last page of his ISO. Marmot why did Frog want you gone?

[Marmot]

That dude Frog had 194 posts! I see he also wanted Marmot gone, but not quite sure why, I've only read the last page of his ISO. Marmot why did Frog want you gone?

Because I was slanking.

[Matt]

Marmot why did Wilgy vote for you on Day 1?

[Marco]

Marco, if not zebra, who were you hoping made such a comment in the thread?

Why would I be hoping for someone specific to make that comment? I knew Zebra's stand already, which is why I said I was hoping for someone else who said it.

The way I understood it, you weren't aware zebra had said such a thing.

As for your question, I don't know why you'd be hoping for someone specific to make that comment. I want to be clear if someone else meant someone in particular, or just anyone.

Zebra's and Golden's interaction this phase is what set off the most red flags in respect to Golden for me. So, yeah, I was hoping for validation from other people. Especially since most of my town-reads town read Golden.

What specific red flags does my interaction with zebra set off for you?

I guess I'll just be totally clear with you. Unfamiliarity is already a hindrance since I don't know what to expect from you. Give me a bit to get a post together.

[Golden]

Marco, if not zebra, who were you hoping made such a comment in the thread?

Why would I be hoping for someone specific to make that comment? I knew Zebra's stand already, which is why I said I was hoping for someone else who said it.

The way I understood it, you weren't aware zebra had said such a thing.

As for your question, I don't know why you'd be hoping for someone specific to make that comment. I want to be clear if someone else meant someone in particular, or just anyone.

Zebra's and Golden's interaction this phase is what set off the most red flags in respect to Golden for me. So, yeah, I was hoping for validation from other people. Especially since most of my town-reads town read Golden.

What specific red flags does my interaction with zebra set off for you?

I guess I'll just be totally clear with you. Unfamiliarity is already a hindrance since I don't know what to expect from you. Give me a bit to get a post together.

Naturally it is. It is a disadvantage in some ways, but an advantage in others in that you might not brush over things that even I myself wouldn't have considered needed explanation. I would only ask that you try to take into account people who know me well on meta based defences, and I in turn will try to provide meaningful content for you in my response.

[Marco]

Marco, if not zebra, who were you hoping made such a comment in the thread?

Why would I be hoping for someone specific to make that comment? I knew Zebra's stand already, which is why I said I was hoping for someone else who said it.

The way I understood it, you weren't aware zebra had said such a thing.

As for your question, I don't know why you'd be hoping for someone specific to make that comment. I want to be clear if someone else meant someone in particular, or just anyone.

Zebra's and Golden's interaction this phase is what set off the most red flags in respect to Golden for me. So, yeah, I was hoping for validation from other people. Especially since most of my town-reads town read Golden.

What specific red flags does my interaction with zebra set off for you?

I guess I'll just be totally clear with you. Unfamiliarity is already a hindrance since I don't know what to expect from you. Give me a bit to get a post together.

Naturally it is. It is a disadvantage in some ways, but an advantage in others in that you might not brush over things that even I myself wouldn't have considered needed explanation. I would only ask that you try to take into account people who know me well on meta based defences, and I in turn will try to provide meaningful content for you in my response.

Indeed, I'd like input from others that are used to playing with you.

[Golden]

Do the moment, I guess I'll start getting some info from mynp nulls reads. Since Gikden is here, may as wel, start with him!

VOTE GOLDEN

Heyo Golden! I fully intend to change my vote to someone else, but right now I have you in my larger-than-it-should-be list of null reads, so since you're here right I'd like to have some sort of interaction. Anything you can tell me about your reads and specifically some thoughts on myself, Soneji (who is currently my only Mafia read) and MP (who seems to be a bit shady)?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MP - last time I remember playing with him where he was scum, I nailed on him on day one. Then, I died shortly afterwards and didn't get to lynch him until I got a rezz several days later, by chance, and by that point he'd done a major AtE gambit and I'd begun to doubt my read. But really, I think I am decent at reading MP. He does change things up a bit, but I think I'm much more likely to scum read his town game than town read his scum game. But he has mostly been town recently, hasn't had many scum games.

MP's cycle of frustration and apology, and in fact almost everything about MP, reeks of his town game to me. If he is scum, he has me deeply fooled and I'll congratulate him for playing a very strong scum game. The reasons I've seen for suspecting him have all been things standard to MP's town meta. He is a unique player and I like to wittingly call him 'the suicidal moron' because, when town, he is very good at doing something to make himself look incredibly scummy and end up being lynched for it. Of the people whose meta I know decently well, MP is the only one who I feel very firmly about in terms of their likelihood to be town.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You - I need to get a better grip on you. I feel like you are very likable and feel like you fit here. You have a very affable personality, in fact the kind of personality that makes me naturally want to town read you. I feel the need to beware of this. I do feel guilty often for lynching people who are new here (regardless of their affiliation) because I want people to feel welcome and stay. Especially nice people. So, I'm trying not to take this into account.

I do think others have raised good points for why you could be bad. I also think there is merit to the idea that, absent of having any communication on day one, if you were a member of mafia I could see why your teammates may have felt comfortable bussing you if they thought you weren't actually going to show up.

In some ways, you feel like a good lynch right now through little fault of your own (other than your relative absence). It does feel like lynching you could create a lot more interesting context to both day one and day two. I am listening to what you have to say, but I'd like to get a much more thorough sense of how you are feeling. As you yourself have said, you have far too many null reads right now for me to have any confidence in you. But, then, you are well behind. I hope you catch up.

My big problem in terms of reading you is... I just don't know you. That makes you hard to read.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't know why Soneji wasn't around for a while - has he answered this? I have found so far that soneji has a unique angle on events and seems to be endeavouring to contribute. I can't put him above 'slight scum' on my radar yet primarily because he doesn't have enough content yet, and what there has been is quite dense so I don't feel like I've developed a strong sense of where he stands.

However, on balance, the content that soneji has provided has good feelz and thinking solely about how he has approached the game when apparently starting from a long way behind, it does make me feel a little good about him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Right back at you. How do you feel about Soneji, Marco and myself? Even if its null, what impressions have led you to null?

[Marco]

@Golden, Just a disclaimer, I know some of the confusion can be attributed to lack of familiarity between us and culture differences between our home boards. So, I'm hoping that others, and you, can give me more insight once I just lay everything out.

SILVERWOLF INTERACTION

Your argument with Silver was blown up and started over a simple misunderstanding. Silver's emotional responses didn't help but I can't get over how weird your sudden push on her was. It basically started when you called her out and voted for her. [1][2]

Spoiler: show

Hold up nelly.

Defensiveness of being questioned? I played it straight up and down the line with the questions you asked me, I wasn't being defensive in the slightest. I didn't avoid the questions... but you just did then.

As for 'playing it on to you' - so, I can't suspect you then?

I didn't no u you. You gave no indication you suspected me. And based on a plain reading of the questions you asked me (read them again - you didn't say whose content you liked parts of - I assumed you meant my case on zexy), I thought you agreed with my zexy read, not disagreed with it, so there was hardly a need for me to get defensive.

VOTE SILVERWOLF

And this was prompted by her saying, "Your defensiveness of being questioned and deflecting onto me is noted." [3]

Spoiler: show

I feel like Silverwolf's posts have a very "drifter" quality to them. Just moving along, picking random posts and responding to them. There seems to be no desire to interact beyond the occasional observation or to engage anyone. The participation seems superficial. What do others think?

VOTE SILVERWOLF

Considering I'm catching up and responding to what I feel I need to, this is a fair assumption but it's wrong. I'm catching up. Unfortunately, RL has made it hard for me to stay focused on this game.

I will say, I think Marco v Frog is TvT. Sloonei vs Sig-I like Sloonei better and I will look into this more and elaborate soon. MP needs to post more content and not keep making excuses for not doing so. Dyslexicon looks town also. Goldem-can you go into detail on Zexy as scum? I liked some of the content there so what am I missing?

MOVING PICTURES

You need to post more.

Also, I'm around if anyone has any questions or wants to talk for about an hour or so.

I don't like this vote at all.

MP has been up front about his schedule and exactly when he will be trying to post. There are people who haven't posted at all. Feels like you are picking on the person who has self-admitted they will be quiet. And anyway, why exactly does he, specifically, need to post more?

As far as the detail of Zexy as scum - I don't know what you're missing? I've posted the reason I am pinged by him. There isn't anything more to it because it's a relatively small ping, what would you like me to explain more? What was the 'some content' that you liked? Was there part of it you didn't like?

I also gave another reason for not liking him if you read my posts. I successfully called out the lurkers in Turf Wars as town when they turned out to be scum. I'm trying to get more out of MP. Zexy pinged me as town almost right away for transparent thought process I agreed with which is why I asked you about it. Your defensiveness of being questioned and deflecting onto me is noted.

It was strange how defensive you got before you both even exchanged 4 posts. I also feel like you stretched it with some of your assertions like she implied you NO-Ud her just because she said, "Your defensiveness of being questioned and deflecting onto me is noted."

The bulk of the argument was because she felt you put words in her mouth (I know you felt misrepresented at points too, but you weren't getting that agitated about that bit) and it all started with you getting super defensive over what felt like nothing IMO. Look at [4] again. Do you still feel like she was saying you NO-Ud or even suspected her?

Spoiler: show

I also gave another reason for not liking him if you read my posts. I successfully called out the lurkers in Turf Wars as town when they turned out to be scum. I'm trying to get more out of MP. Zexy pinged me as town almost right away for transparent thought process I agreed with which is why I asked you about it. Your defensiveness of being questioned and deflecting onto me is noted.

You finding the MP vote very scummy also looked odd to me [6]. It just looked like a place-holder to directly engage MP. Sort of a "Anybody home?"

Spoiler: show

You clearly don't welcome questioning. I asked you a number and you told me off for getting defensive instead of answering them.

I did not 'immediately attack you as scum' - as I've pointed out. I'm not 'looking for a reason to vote you'.

It's really simple SW - I don't like your MP vote AT ALL, or your reasoning for it. I find it as scummy as heck. Trying to make it out like I'm being personal against you is not helpful to me, it doesn't help prove me wrong. Just engage with me on a game level. If you are emotionally frustrated at taking my vote, please talk to Dom. I want clear headed SW as much as the next person. I have a lot of respect for your town game.

But, you do not get a pass from suspicion. You cannot ask me not to suspect you because it will 'distract you'. Taking suspicion is part of the game.

I have read your 'fucking posts', so stop telling me to iso you to understand you.

I realize your reasons for finding it scummy but I felt they were a bit exaggerated. Her vote wasn't about prodding an inactive player and settling on MP. It was about prodding MP to be active. And after that, it felt like you constantly kept trying to nitpick and find any reasons to suspect her. [7][8]

Spoiler: show

Golden, I suggest you read my fucking posts before you ask questions. One thing that will irritate me to now end is not getting time to read, post, and develop my reads. You immediately attacking me is scum motivation as it distracts me from doing that. Anyone who knows me knows that. I welcome interaction, I welcome questioning, but being attacked, voted, misrepped, for simply asking a question will set me off and piss me off to no end.

You clearly don't welcome questioning. I asked you a number and you told me off for getting defensive instead of answering them.

I did not 'immediately attack you as scum' - as I've pointed out. I'm not 'looking for a reason to vote you'.

It's really simple SW - I don't like your MP vote AT ALL, or your reasoning for it. I find it as scummy as heck. Trying to make it out like I'm being personal against you is not helpful to me, it doesn't help prove me wrong. Just engage with me on a game level. If you are emotionally frustrated at taking my vote, please talk to Dom. I want clear headed SW as much as the next person. I have a lot of respect for your town game.

But, you do not get a pass from suspicion. You cannot ask me not to suspect you because it will 'distract you'. Taking suspicion is part of the game.

I have read your 'fucking posts', so stop telling me to iso you to understand you.

Silverwolf, you said you found MP cautious about avoiding a hammer vote. Yes, you did. One post about MP before your vote post.

Here is the sum total (snips) of what you said about MP in your vote post.

MP needs to post more content and not keep making excuses for not doing so.

MOVING PICTURES

You need to post more.

You did not call back to the post you made ages ago about his hammer vote being suspicious. You made it very clear your vote was because you felt he 'needed to post more content' and was 'making excuses for not doing so'.

Do you really think it is unreasonable for me to believe your vote is for the latter reason, not the former? How is it fair to say I'm misrepresenting your vote when you, yourself, represented it entirely as being about him 'making excuses' for not posting content.

Here is MP's last post:

Just a heads up regarding my schedule, for those that care: I'll be around in about 5.5 hours from now to post Smashfest matches, but I may or may not be sufficiently finished with work by then to call it a night; if I am, I'll check in here, and no earlier. If I am not, I'll be back sometime later this evening. See you all sometime.

This does not read like an 'excuse' to me. It reads like a stated fact about when he will be back to the thread. I do not like that you represent it as an 'excuse'.

Ika says you care about and understand rl things. It does not seem like you do in respect of MP? Do you have any reason to believe he is not telling the truth about his schedule?

And after things cooled down, you pointed out that Silver never actually convinced you but you still town read her. [9]

Spoiler: show

However my question is: Golden, do you still suspect Silver?
I also note that Golden is slightly apologetic in this interaction for "ticking Silver off" (which I don't think he needs to be cause he did nothing wrong). He may just be a polite young gentleman, but it reads a bit guilty mindset.
Like, I find it really hard to trust Golden, and I don't know whether I'm paranoid or not.

Yes.

The thing that is most suspicious to me about silver is not the vote itself, per se. Just look at the post I made where I said I didn't like the vote, and then her response.

I asked a whole lot of questions of her after saying I didn't like the vote at all. Her response was to call me defensive (what was I defensive about?) and deflecting (who was I deflecting from?)

This reaction was so over the top, it's what made me feel worse about silverwolf.

However, when she calmed down and started answering my questions, I thought her responses were fair. My continued suspicions of her fall well short of me being convinced she must be bad.

Also, to you and zexy - you shouldn't rely on a strong town meta from me as being a sign I'm town. I think (others can give you their own opinion) that I maintain a pretty solid helpful-civ meta across both town and scum. It's totally fair for you to be paranoid. But I am town this game.

After this, you spent the rest of the time calming Silver down cause you town-read her. The whole episode left a bad taste in my mouth. A lot of hurrah over nothing which could've easily been avoided. And it felt like if Silver even looked at you wrong, you'd go back to suspecting her. [10]

Spoiler: show

For some reason I feel like Golden and MP are scumbuddies.

You say this over and over and it makes me go back to suspecting you a little. Should I suspect you and ika are scum buddies because you defend each other? Or should I recognise that you know each others meta and listen to you when you talk about each other?

You've chosen not to acknowledge any of the things I've said when you've referenced my defense of MP.

FROG READ

When you posted your rainbow list, you had Frog as a town read. [11]

Spoiler: show

Rainbow time - decided to treat it like gth and have no null reads.

Medium Town

Marco
Sloonei
Zexy

Mild Town

Frog
MovingPictures07
Silverwolf
Dyslexicon
Long Con
sig

Mild Bad

ika
Inawordyes
Psittaciform
Soneji
Metalmarsh89

Moderate Bad

a2thezebra
DrWilgy

Though I couldn't quite understand how you had him as such a high town read while you were so conflicted about him. [12][13]

Spoiler: show

Frog, what the hell is an obvious townie? There is no such thing. Also, you realize that's, like, your opinion, man. How come you get to determine what's easy mislynch bait and what isn't? We don't know anything until flips have occurred. Otherwise, stop acting like you have such confident reads.

I agree with this. Frog has started bothering me lately. No-one is an 'obvious townie', no-one is an 'easy lynch' (let alone silverwolf and ika who come with a built in ally) and if there really were easy lynches, I'd think they would be the people who weren't posting ie the ones you, Frog, are pushing.

It makes me feel a little less confident in my initial town read.

Zebra popped in yet didn't post. I'm really starting to feel this Zebra vote.


@Golden what do you think of Zebra and Matt?

Matt is definitely not playing this game. If he was he would be tunnelling on me.

Not a fan of zebra this game. She may well be truthful in her feeling on the low poster idea, but if I were town I'd be much more inclined to come in and explain why I've been a low poster - not to criticise the entire concept. I think in some ways Frog is right that perhaps the most useful outcome of his idea is to look at who opposes it a little too hard.

You never actually engaged Frog about any of your concerns though. You were also the first person to suggest a Frog CFD. [14]

Spoiler: show

If I was to do some kind of tinfoil CFD vote, it would probably be Frog.

His trying to constantly reduce things to mechanical rules about what scum would do are not only obviously fallacious (because the moment rules develop around 'what scum would do', scum deliberately act counter to that) but also feel like someone making a play for town leader.

I see Frog's content almost as deliberate wifom - on one hand I can read it as trying to avoid being the NK target. On the other as trying to avoid being the lynch target. The one thing I have difficulty seeing it as is absolutely straight. He started off feeling quite straightforward to me, but he's wobbled his way off the road.

And that was all you said about it until your vote on him. I can understand it was tinfoil wrapped but from my little experience with you, you seem the type of player who engages his suspects, and it's odd to me that you had almost no interaction in between the time he was one of your foremost town-reads to when you suggested the CFD on him. When you were suspicious of Silver, zebra, etc, you engaged them. It was only after your vote on Frog, and specifically once the votes were tied that you finally started engaging Frog. [15]

Spoiler: show

I've developed and drove content and strategies with a mountain of posts.

You've pushed the concept that high posting = town and now you want to benefit from that?

You can't self define what town looks like and then claim obvi-town because you fit into your self-described criteria. You are far too focussed on what 'town looks like' for my liking.

The underlined was such a strange remark, too. You'd been all aboard his plan earlier [16]. I can understand being confused about some of the terms Frog used, but you never really engaged him about them, and the underlined just seemed like you were misrepresenting him.

Spoiler: show

But while I'm doing that, I want to hear from Golden as to why he voted for me. If we're talking unexplained votes, he takes the prize for worst offense.

Because (until just now) you weren't talking.

I've been on board with Frog's plan of voting amongst the four low posters from the word go - so far, you, Wilgy and zebra have all tasted my suspicion bat. The only reason Psi hasn't is because he won't post and I don't know him.

Your basic reason was tinfoil. [17]

Spoiler: show

I should switch back to IAWY

Don't plz

I won't. I've tinfoiled myself into a Frog vote. I think it will be informative.

Even urging ika to switch. [18]

Spoiler: show

Ika, you should vote frog tbh just to prove you don't always vote with silver!

I can't really say for sure, obviously, but I definitely feel like your call for Frog CFD and vote was the tipping point for Frog. That coupled with the fact that Frog was the one suspect of you that you didn't even try to engage doesn't look good.

A2THEZEBRA INTERACTION

I don't understand the rationale behind voting for someone you read as town to convince them you're town. [19][20]

Spoiler: show

VOTE A2THEZEBRA

I'm smacking zebra on the head with the red shell.

Maybe it will wake her up.

You compared zebra's push on you SP's vote on MP, which was even more confusing. [21]

Spoiler: show

I have no justified reason to vote you. I don't give a shit. I'm voting for you to wake you up. Lynch me and you lynch a townie. You've decided to see every explanation I make as a point in your favour, despite the fact it is neither inconsistent nor in any way false.

Or, put another way, your posts towards me are basically the same as silverwolf's posts towards MP yesterday. You are just looking for a reason to suspect me, and anything I say furthers your existing perception. Even rational points that you admit should sway you in the other direction swayed you further towards suspecting me, so...

I'll do what I can to wake you up. If I can't, then whatevs.

Here's the post that really put me off. [22]

Spoiler: show

Here's the thing, zebra. Full seriousness.

I am town, but I'd sooner mislynch you and leave my vote on you than be lynched myself. I'm playing this game for practice for champs. I don't actually care if you go down. I don't actually WHO goes down. I'm going to do my best to try to solve the game and thats all there is to it.

I'll do what I have to do to survive in this game. If that means lynching the people who think I'm bad, even if they are town, then so be it. Means I get longer to practice.

I don't have any teammates to come to my rescue and help. If I do get lynched today, I'll call it a failed endeavour. Certainly, I'll give up, because I don't have time for this shit. I'm playing because JJJ was nice enough to give me a chance to practice, even though I really don't have time for it.

Even with Silver, you hadn't gotten this annoyed. And after you town-read Silver, you were quite affable to her. This post, especially, comes across a bit artificial to me. Or a better word would be manufactured. But more interesting than the "I want practice" bit is the "I will survive" bit. If you are voting for self-preservation, why vote for the person with no votes on her? MetalMarsh, IAWY are much better alternatives. Especially since you scum-read both of them. [23]

Spoiler: show

New rainbow

Strong town

Marco
Zexy
MovingPictures07

Moderate town

a2thezebra
sig

Slight town

Dyslexicon
ika

Slight scum

DrWilgy
Inawordyes
Metalmarsh89
Psittaciform
Soneji

Moderate scum

Matt

Your defense was always adequate, in respect to the MM/Sloonei bits, so that's what I was talking about when I said that it looked like zebra had caught an actual scum but for the wrong reasons.

SLOONEI/MATT AND THE BOY CALLED MARMOT

You found Sloonei suspicious after MetalMarsh pointed out the Frog FOS and added him to your list of people you want to lynch. [24] [25]

Spoiler: show

What MM fails to account for in his case on sloonei is the extent to which sloonei already town read or trusted ika vs frog. If I came on asking people who I should vote for and a person I didn't have any reason to trust gave me one answer and a person I'm reading as town gave me another, I know I'd dismiss one and focus on the other.

I fail to see how Frog being Sloonei's top suspect only a few hours beforehand supports this statement.

Good! I hadn't done any research on it, I was just picking holes in your case for you to fill.

Now, I think it's a pretty decent one.

What MM fails to account for in his case on sloonei is the extent to which sloonei already town read or trusted ika vs frog. If I came on asking people who I should vote for and a person I didn't have any reason to trust gave me one answer and a person I'm reading as town gave me another, I know I'd dismiss one and focus on the other.

I fail to see how Frog being Sloonei's top suspect only a few hours beforehand supports this statement.

Good! I hadn't done any research on it, I was just picking holes in your case for you to fill.

Now, I think it's a pretty decent one.

I don't remember it from my catch-up, so at the time it didn't stand out to me.

Would you vote for Sloonei today?

To be precise.

You have convinced me to add Sloonei to the list of people I will consider voting today.

He would not be my preferred vote, because I'd be interested to see his response to your case and I don't think we'll get that today.

But if he does end up being the lynchee, I think the reasons for it are solid.

So, now you had MetalMarsh, IAWY, and Sloonei as potential lynch candidates. However, you didn't want to vote for Sloonei because he wouldn't respond yesterday. But you didn't look to get any particular responses from Frog. And Sloonei actually did show up and could've responded to you yesterday, but you didn't really engage him either.

After voting for him today, some time ago, you also revealed that you found his jump off the Frog wagon last minute scummy cause you think he did it for towncred. [26]

Spoiler: show

Your hunch looks more like a preemptive defense (to an accusation that I don't think has been made yet) than a genuine effort to scumhunt. Beautiful. If there's any distancing going on, it's not Sloonei and Marmot. It's you and Marmot.

VOTE SLOONEI

I think its more likely I'm wrong about Marmot than wrong about Sloonei.

I've thought he was bad since the moment he jumped off Frog at the last moment at EoD. That vote felt full of certainty that Frog was town.

To me it just felt like Sloonei had not really been paying much attention to think about all that. Especially with no day chat for the scum-team, I find it unlikely that he would jump off Frog for town-cred after he claimed he scum read Frog. I also didn't like how you were doing the breadcrumbs thing. Mentioning things one by one. First you mentioned MM's case against Sloonei. Then the tiny extra research he did. Then finally that the vote switch off Frog was why you suspected him most. It's like you were thinking of reasons to suspect him. For instance, you could have made the following post much earlier. Instead it felt like you were constantly adding things as you went along and MM and zombie questioned you. [27]

Spoiler: show

Anyway, what do you want me to do? Say 'oh, zebra, you're right, I'm scum, well done'? I AM TOWN, what else do you think I'll be but stubborn in the face of accusations I'm not?

If all I wanted from you was to concede then I wouldn't have bothered holding my vote until you responded. Strong defenses have swayed me before, I wanted you to defend yourself convincingly. Instead, you pulled the condescension/disrespect card. Not smart.

I defended myself with the truth. You didn't buy it. I am not then going to make up shit to be more persuasive. If you don't buy the truth, there is nothing more I can do.

The truth? What a cop out. You defended yourself with cheap semantics and then accused me of attacking you with them. If you were speaking the truth then you did a shit job of going about it.

I did not defend myself with anything 'cheap' or 'semantics'. The truth is my read on sloonei did not change based on MM's initial case, and it did change based on his subsequent addition, which only came after I pressured him. My read on sloonei further worsened (ie, I went from 'I see MM's case and it isn't bad' to 'I think sloonei is bad independent from MM's case') when sloonei voted frog.

This is not a semantic difference. It's there, in the thread, as it happened, for anyone to read.

MM and you are the ones who have been using semantics to try to trip me into looking like my view has been inconsistent when it has not been.

And then you finally switched to Matt after he replaced Sloonei. [28]

Spoiler: show

VOTE MATT

Mentioning this just for closure. I don't particularly find a vote on him at this point odd. I also don't like how you're being wishy-washy about Sloonei vote yesterday. You said yesterday that you weren't voting for him cause he wasn't around, but he did show up right after that. And today, you started saying you never really considered lynching him yesterday. [29]

Spoiler: show

Hopefully Golden this makes you feel more comfortable.

I'd feel most comfortable if I understood your current read on me, and why.

I was actually thinking that you and Sloonei were on a team together, which is why you didn't vote for him yesterday, but did today. You had time to discuss things overnight, and plan out a bus attempt today.

But with Matt replacing in, that makes the tin-foil moot. Sloonei wouldn't replace out if he was planning on being bussed. That doesn't fit. I still find Sloonei suspicious and would like to hear from Matt sooner than later. As for you, I would list you as slight mafia still.

Besides this, as I've made the point before... I don't 'plan' busses. Ever. There is no value in it. Bussing is a phenomenon that MUST feel natural out of your reads. If it feels like you've suddenly shifted direction, it's pointless. If I'm going to bus, it's my call alone and I make it in the moment... and if I have day time talk, I'll say sorry to my teammate, but I'll do what I have to do.

I never truly considered a sloonei vote yesterday. But I'll admit, after he switched from Frog to IAWY, I very nearly switched my vote to you. That was the moment where I started tinfoiling the pair of you as teammates. It looked to me a little like getting civ cred AND helping make sure a teammate didn't go home all in one. And it's not as though your case on sloonei ever amounted to any danger for him, because so many people were town reading him.

The flaw in this tinfoil read is - you are vibing town to me. It's why I feel much more strongly about sloonei than I do about you.

And right after, it's like you're catching yourself and adding a new reason (different from what you gave yesterday). [30]

Spoiler: show

And the reason I never truly considered a sloonei vote yesterday is in part because I never considered he would get the votes to be lynched, so it seemed like a waste of energy. I never considered a Frog vote either until it seemed viable that he would be lynched.

And before, early Day 2, when asked what your reason for suspecting Sloonei, you only mentioned it was MM's strengthened case. But after you pointed out the Frog vote bail, you kept using that as your primary reason for suspecting Sloonei. [31]

Spoiler: show

Golden, I'm not sure I see how Sloonmatt is your strongest suspicion. I don't really find MM's initial argument against him very convincing, even after the revision (prompted but not intented by you lol). Can you sum up your suspicion or something?

My primary reason for suspecting sloonei was that he spent the whole day (maybe not the whole day, but it is my impression of him) calling Frog his top suspect and then jumped away from him with about 7 minutes to go, because 'if Frog is town, he is too valuable'.

To me, this jump made no sense, and felt informed and like a civ cred grab. It's unfortunate that sloonei was not able to come back to explain himself.

And finally, your post where you state that you thought MM implied MP had a power role early in the game [32]. This is strange because you thought MM was scum all this while. Meaning if he actually thought MP was PR, they would've killed him last night. This feels like something you made up after we started discussing the possibilities of MP and Sig being PR.

Spoiler: show

Full disclosure now that its out of the bag. I think I restrained myself in saying this earlier.

MM made a comment very early in the game which I felt revealed that he thought MP had implied a town power role. I also thought MP had effectively implied this, but I kept it under my hat. The choice to put it in the thread was part of me seeing both marmot and sloonei as bad in the early day. I feel like scum would be more blase pointing out that MP could be a power role than scum would be.

Since it is kind of now open discussion, though, I agree that MP or sig, if they are in possession of the correct set up, should say what it is.

[Golden]

Lets call that...

Something for tomorrow time for me to sleep.

But thanks for doing it.

[Golden]

I will start by answering your first question, though, on the silverwolf thing. You've misunderstood that 'no u' paragraph in the same way she did. My point is to explain that there was nothing there for me to get defensive over. I did not feel like she was saying I had no-u'd her. I did not feel like she suspected me. That's the point! I was listing the possible reasons one could have for calling me defensive and pointing out none existed. Like, there was literally no reason for me asking her questions to be me 'getting defensive'. I actually thought (and I still never quite figured out if this was correct or not) that she was agreeing with me, the exact opposite. Why would I get defensive over someone agreeing with me. That's why I found the whole thing bizarre, like, why would she read it as me being defensive, and what of?

I said I didn't like her vote at all... but then I asked her a whole lot of questions about the rest of her post. She called it defensive and deflective when, for me, it was just me trying to get to the bottom of her thinking. I felt, ironically, that her calling me defensive was actually her being defensive. And it was that defensive mode that immediately triggered my alarm bells to create the vote I put on her.

In hindsight, by the next morning I felt like her emotional reactions probably accounted for that initial post from her, and the fact I had said I didn't like her vote negated everything that came afterwards because she already felt emotive/attacked just from the first sentence, and kind of reacted emotionally. In the moment, though, it just felt like I had struck a nerve with my questioning and she was turning it around on me instead of answering the questions.

[Golden]

And also, I'm sorry, but saying the silver thing 'could easily have been avoided' leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Her suspicion was shit. She took one person who was low posting and picked on them. Even though they had expressly stated they wouldn't be around. As I said right from the start, why not Soneji (who was a placeholder for anyone else with low posts). When Frog came along later, he ignored Soneji and there were still 4 people who had posted less than MP and MP hadn't posted any more by then...

If you can't see why this looked to me like Silverwolf was taking an easy mark, in picking the person who admitted they would be absent and going after them when she knew they weren't around to defend, instead of actually doing research into low posters and making it seem like she was genuinely trying to get people to post... like, it really did seem like the lazy approach to getting someone to post.

Later on she clarified that it was based on more than JUST the fact he wasn't posting. But on day one calling out one low poster for 'constant excuses'... I mean, it just looked bad to me on so many levels. It's not the way town golden would go about engaging a low poster 24 hours into the game, put it that way. It seemed deliberately inflammatory, underdeveloped, and the easy mark. I've been much more firm over day one lynches for much less. The only thing that was forgivable about it, for me, is that she does not know MP at all... if she did, her reasons probably wouldn't have swayed me.

[Golden]

Me chasing down my suspicions and making people actually account for them cannot 'be avoided'. It's kind of insulting for you to minimise my suspicion in that way, but it also goes to show that you are not familiar with how often I have 10 page fights with people when I don't think their responses are adding up.

[Golden]

Frog read - since when is 'mild town read' the same as 'such a high town read'? It's literally the bottom possible town read.

I have no problem taking credit for Frog's lynch. I think that is an accurate read.

As for not engaging with him... I don't think thats entirely fair. I may not have asked him direct questions, but I did make direct statements in response to him that he didn't really engage with. I didn't really get the sense he was engaging with criticisms of him. But, you are right I didn't give him the same time of day as Silverwolf. A large part of this is down to timing - 48 hours to go versus, however many I had with Frog which was very few. The engagement he was giving was all wrong to me - all about how great he was and how terrible the site was... just not the kind of stuff that I can easily find a way to engage with.

[Golden]

In respect of zebra - I've experienced her tunneling on me when I'm town before, and from that experience I suspect that absolutely nothing I say can change her mind. When she is determined she is right that's that. So, I guess I could have abandoned it and let it go, but I just don't let it go with people I think are town. I want to convince them to see the light. My responses to her indicate the fact I was coming in with a futile mindset, but that I still wanted to try to convince her.

I didn't get that annoyed with silver because silver doesn't have a tunnelling me problem, and besides I suspected silver not the other way around. If you want to compare - look at my responses to Mac in Arkham, for example...

Spoiler: show

I thought you said I was just fucking around. Now I can't read you. Which is it?

Yeah, but that was before you actually made an effort to justify why you are voting me. Now you have.

You were waiting for an opportunity to bring up the fact that I suspect you in every game and then did so with enthusiasm. You didn't even stop to question how utterly absurd my justification is. You actually day you understand it. I intentionally stated something absurd to see if you would go the discredit angle instead of the point and you did. Bad mamajama.

There is only one civ role you could be huh. So you will have an opportunity to prove it to me.

I don't care what you did, Mac. After Star Wars, I made a conscious effort to never engage with you about this stuff again. In GoC, I knew you were bad from early, but I had no interest in touching you with a bargepole in the thread. I also have no real interest in engaging you about your suspicion of me either. Brag about your tactics about trapping me if you like... in the end it doesn't matter what tactics you use on me, you are still wrong. And I'm not going to engage on them.

This is shortly after I told Mac, basically, 'you are wrong about me every single time, you've never been right about me yet'.

I'm not sure zebra has been either.

I get annoyed when people come at me hard despite the fact they show no propensity to be able to read me in the past and don't seem to learn their lessons from it. I find it even more annoying when I happen to also be defending them as civ at the same time (as I was with Mac in that game). It's just like... can't you just see I'm town, get over yourself, and help us work together?

Like - I was never saying zebra was going to be lynched today. All I was trying to express to her is that if she was going to tunnel on me, then I couldn't care less if she ended up being lynched, because its no skin off my nose... even if she was town. For me, this is a win win, you either get scum or you get rid of the tunneler who doesn't want to take into account what you are saying.

Don't ask me to turn the posts into something that has logical coherence. It wasn't about that. It was about the fact that I could tell that my words weren't going to make a convert out of zebra, and so it was pointless to try - and yet having the futility of knowing I was going to try anyway. It's very frustrating and when I'm frustated I get honest very quickly - and honest truth, if I'm town I don't care if townies who are thorns in my side get lynched. I just don't. They are distracting me from solving the game. I don't know if you can understand this whole emotive muddle... it might be something unique to me.

I don't actually know why I'm townreading zebra, either. I need to think about that more deeply.

[Marco]

Lets call that...

Something for tomorrow time for me to sleep.

But thanks for doing it.

That's fair.

Spoiler: show

I will start by answering your first question, though, on the silverwolf thing. You've misunderstood that 'no u' paragraph in the same way she did. My point is to explain that there was nothing there for me to get defensive over. I did not feel like she was saying I had no-u'd her. I did not feel like she suspected me. That's the point! I was listing the possible reasons one could have for calling me defensive and pointing out none existed. Like, there was literally no reason for me asking her questions to be me 'getting defensive'. I actually thought (and I still never quite figured out if this was correct or not) that she was agreeing with me, the exact opposite. Why would I get defensive over someone agreeing with me. That's why I found the whole thing bizarre, like, why would she read it as me being defensive, and what of?

I said I didn't like her vote at all... but then I asked her a whole lot of questions about the rest of her post. She called it defensive and deflective when, for me, it was just me trying to get to the bottom of her thinking. I felt, ironically, that her calling me defensive was actually her being defensive. And it was that defensive mode that immediately triggered my alarm bells to create the vote I put on her.

In hindsight, by the next morning I felt like her emotional reactions probably accounted for that initial post from her, and the fact I had said I didn't like her vote negated everything that came afterwards because she already felt emotive/attacked just from the first sentence, and kind of reacted emotionally. In the moment, though, it just felt like I had struck a nerve with my questioning and she was turning it around on me instead of answering the questions.

I don't quite understand.

This is all she had said:

I also gave another reason for not liking him if you read my posts. I successfully called out the lurkers in Turf Wars as town when they turned out to be scum. I'm trying to get more out of MP. Zexy pinged me as town almost right away for transparent thought process I agreed with which is why I asked you about it. Your defensiveness of being questioned and deflecting onto me is noted.

Why did you feel the need to say, "I didn't no u you." "You gave no indication you suspected me." What was the context?

And I also don't quite understand why you got so upset over a simple place-holder Day 1 vote. There wasn't even any pressure.

Spoiler: show

And also, I'm sorry, but saying the silver thing 'could easily have been avoided' leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Her suspicion was shit. She took one person who was low posting and picked on them. Even though they had expressly stated they wouldn't be around. As I said right from the start, why not Soneji (who was a placeholder for anyone else with low posts). When Frog came along later, he ignored Soneji and there were still 4 people who had posted less than MP and MP hadn't posted any more by then...

If you can't see why this looked to me like Silverwolf was taking an easy mark, in picking the person who admitted they would be absent and going after them when she knew they weren't around to defend, instead of actually doing research into low posters and making it seem like she was genuinely trying to get people to post... like, it really did seem like the lazy approach to getting someone to post.

Later on she clarified that it was based on more than JUST the fact he wasn't posting. But on day one calling out one low poster for 'constant excuses'... I mean, it just looked bad to me on so many levels. It's not the way town golden would go about engaging a low poster 24 hours into the game, put it that way. It seemed deliberately inflammatory, underdeveloped, and the easy mark. I've been much more firm over day one lynches for much less. The only thing that was forgivable about it, for me, is that she does not know MP at all... if she did, her reasons probably wouldn't have swayed me.

I think it's a good thing that it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Regardless of your alignment here, you'll be less likely to make a similar "mistake" in the future. Her vote looked very innocent to me. And I wasn't the only one, either. Placing a vote on someone as a "Hey, how's it hanging, I'm interested in hearing from you" is pretty common, especially on Day 1.

Me chasing down my suspicions and making people actually account for them cannot 'be avoided'. It's kind of insulting for you to minimise my suspicion in that way, but it also goes to show that you are not familiar with how often I have 10 page fights with people when I don't think their responses are adding up.

That's an admirable quality. But if I feel like your suspicions were not solid and that you could've saved your time. That's how I feel. I cannot help that.

[Marco]

Frog read - since when is 'mild town read' the same as 'such a high town read'? It's literally the bottom possible town read.

I assumed the hierarchy was there for a reason.

I have no problem taking credit for Frog's lynch. I think that is an accurate read.

As for not engaging with him... I don't think thats entirely fair. I may not have asked him direct questions, but I did make direct statements in response to him that he didn't really engage with. I didn't really get the sense he was engaging with criticisms of him. But, you are right I didn't give him the same time of day as Silverwolf. A large part of this is down to timing - 48 hours to go versus, however many I had with Frog which was very few. The engagement he was giving was all wrong to me - all about how great he was and how terrible the site was... just not the kind of stuff that I can easily find a way to engage with.

I think there was a quite a lot of time between when you posted your rainbow list, and when you suggested a CFD on Frog. If I have my timestamps correct, there were around 24 hours. In this period, these are the only interactions you had. [1][2][3][4][5][6]

Spoiler: show

btw - im totally being useless until closer to EOD.

Tactics or alcohol?

Not gonna lite - youre my tin foil

I'm sure you weren't drinking lite.

Youre q uestioning players who really shouldnt be questioned upon simple deduction.

This is such an odd statement. If you think scum deduction is that simple, I'd assume you never lose.

EVERYONE should be questioned. No stone should be entitled to be left unturned.

Let me ask you this? Are you ready to join me blindly? As your valiant leader? Rain or shine? WE ARE PRIATES! WE FIGHT AND PLUNDER AND STORM OUR ENEMIES!

I wil be your captain, let us never falter or fail.

No

Why is Epig randomly in the game? Did I miss something??

Clearly.

I'm saying it doesn't and you should read clearly before throwing around sticks or you'll poke your eye out.

Only if they are boomerangs.

Pretty much meaningless IMO. You asked MP for an ISO suddenly and then voted him.

[Golden]

And the sloonei thing will have to wait, for sure, because you have a hell of a lot wrong in there.

[Golden]

I think it's a good thing that it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Regardless of your alignment here, you'll be less likely to make a similar "mistake" in the future. Her vote looked very innocent to me. And I wasn't the only one, either. Placing a vote on someone as a "Hey, how's it hanging, I'm interested in hearing from you" is pretty common, especially on Day 1.

Bullshit. I didn't make a mistake. The mistake is to think my questioning of silverwolf was anything less than reasonable and necessary.

The fact the vote looked innocent to you is entirely irrelevant. You don't get to be the judge of what is innocent or not to ME. I do not think it looked innocent. I don't think it looked like a 'standard place-holder vote'. I thought it looked VERY SUSPICIOUS. I've explained very clearly to you why, in very clear terms. I couldn't have possibly explained it more clearly.

If you want to continue pushing the angle on the idea that I couldn't possibly be justified in holding a suspicion I genuinely held, then the only conclusion I can draw is that you are just like Frog - someone who thinks only your view of the world is correct and everyone else who has a different view doesn't know how to play the game.

If that's the case, I wouldn't have won the most games here last year, I wouldn't have won Syndicate MVP, I wouldn't be the nom for the championships. Get out of your own ass and stop calling my genuine suspicions 'mistakes'. I'm allowed to hold them. You don't get to tell me who I do or don't suspect.

[Tangrowth]

Morning (to those of you even remotely in a similar time zone as me), folks! Afternoon/evening/whatever to the rest of you all.

This post is entirely with regards to my schedule. If you don't care about when I'll be here, skip it.

I've been even busier this morning than anticipated, so site time will inevitably have to wait until either (1) I get home tonight probably around 6:00PM Central (giving me T minus 3 hours until EoD) or (2) sometime in between meetings and such while I'm studying assuming I get bored and can actually justify taking a long break from studying. I'd say don't count on (2), but I know how I am, so it may still happen.

Apologies for the inconvenience! I'll be sure to answer whatever questions and provide input into whatever was posted last night/today as soon as I can.

Also, I wanted to show off my new sockish avatar as a tribute to Phife Dawg (RIP) to complement what I had in my signature; this is even much better.

[Marco]

Spoiler: show

In respect of zebra - I've experienced her tunneling on me when I'm town before, and from that experience I suspect that absolutely nothing I say can change her mind. When she is determined she is right that's that. So, I guess I could have abandoned it and let it go, but I just don't let it go with people I think are town. I want to convince them to see the light. My responses to her indicate the fact I was coming in with a futile mindset, but that I still wanted to try to convince her.

This almost sounds like you were intentionally trying to emulate this behaviour. Also, I can understand the frustration of mindless tunnelling game after game by the same player.

I didn't get that annoyed with silver because silver doesn't have a tunnelling me problem, and besides I suspected silver not the other way around. If you want to compare - look at my responses to Mac in Arkham, for example...

I thought you said I was just fucking around. Now I can't read you. Which is it?

Yeah, but that was before you actually made an effort to justify why you are voting me. Now you have.

You were waiting for an opportunity to bring up the fact that I suspect you in every game and then did so with enthusiasm. You didn't even stop to question how utterly absurd my justification is. You actually day you understand it. I intentionally stated something absurd to see if you would go the discredit angle instead of the point and you did. Bad mamajama.

There is only one civ role you could be huh. So you will have an opportunity to prove it to me.

I don't care what you did, Mac. After Star Wars, I made a conscious effort to never engage with you about this stuff again. In GoC, I knew you were bad from early, but I had no interest in touching you with a bargepole in the thread. I also have no real interest in engaging you about your suspicion of me either. Brag about your tactics about trapping me if you like... in the end it doesn't matter what tactics you use on me, you are still wrong. And I'm not going to engage on them.

This is shortly after I told Mac, basically, 'you are wrong about me every single time, you've never been right about me yet'.

Yes, I know you suspected Silver. But I was drawing a comparison with Silver once you started town-reading her. After you decided that, you were very affable towards her even though she suspected you.

I'm not sure zebra has been either.

I get annoyed when people come at me hard despite the fact they show no propensity to be able to read me in the past and don't seem to learn their lessons from it. I find it even more annoying when I happen to also be defending them as civ at the same time (as I was with Mac in that game). It's just like... can't you just see I'm town, get over yourself, and help us work together?

Like - I was never saying zebra was going to be lynched today. All I was trying to express to her is that if she was going to tunnel on me, then I couldn't care less if she ended up being lynched, because its no skin off my nose... even if she was town. For me, this is a win win, you either get scum or you get rid of the tunneler who doesn't want to take into account what you are saying.

Don't ask me to turn the posts into something that has logical coherence. It wasn't about that. It was about the fact that I could tell that my words weren't going to make a convert out of zebra, and so it was pointless to try - and yet having the futility of knowing I was going to try anyway. It's very frustrating and when I'm frustated I get honest very quickly - and honest truth, if I'm town I don't care if townies who are thorns in my side get lynched. I just don't. They are distracting me from solving the game. I don't know if you can understand this whole emotive muddle... it might be something unique to me.

I don't actually know why I'm townreading zebra, either. I need to think about that more deeply.

There never was a question of her getting lynched though. And it didn't make sense as self-preservation either. Or how trying to lynch your town-read would help convince them you're town? Are you basically saying that it was just that your emotions overtook you?

[Golden]

Silver never really seriously suspected me, at least I didn't feel so. I can tell the difference between someone who seems fixated on me and someone who just seems to be having a nibble at me. Also, don't forget that when I was arguing with zebra I had three votes and noone else had more than one.

[Golden]

Are you basically saying that it was just that your emotions overtook you?

In a sense, I guess you could say that's what I'm saying. Not anger or that kind of emotion. Just, there comes a point where I stop caring - even though I also simultaneously do really care. I don't know if that really makes sense, but it is factually whats going on it those posts. It's the dichotomy of trying to convince someone I'm good while simultaneously not caring at all about who dies. Even if I didn't care at all about the game and its outcome, I'd still fight for my life in the game. I just... can't not!

[Golden]

There never was a question of her getting lynched though.

Who says? Just because she didn't have votes then? That was her argument too. You never know who might find what suspicious later. Frankly, I knew there would be some people who found her approach to me in that conversation suspicious and would come down on my side. Who is to say zebra wouldn't end up lynched. I can't predict things with such accuracy.

[Golden]

I assumed the hierarchy was there for a reason.

It is. The people I call 'mild town read' are the ones that are the weakest. The ones that are 'moderate town read' I have more than a slight lean on, and the 'strong town read' I feel very strongly about.

I don't rank people within categories, if thats what you mean. That would feel arbitrary to me.

[Marco]

I think it's a good thing that it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Regardless of your alignment here, you'll be less likely to make a similar "mistake" in the future. Her vote looked very innocent to me. And I wasn't the only one, either. Placing a vote on someone as a "Hey, how's it hanging, I'm interested in hearing from you" is pretty common, especially on Day 1.

Bullshit. I didn't make a mistake. The mistake is to think my questioning of silverwolf was anything less than reasonable and necessary.

The fact the vote looked innocent to you is entirely irrelevant. You don't get to be the judge of what is innocent or not to ME. I do not think it looked innocent. I don't think it looked like a 'standard place-holder vote'. I thought it looked VERY SUSPICIOUS. I've explained very clearly to you why, in very clear terms. I couldn't have possibly explained it more clearly.

How is it irrelevant? A mistake is when you make an error. And you made an error in judging SilverWolf's post. I'm not implying I don't make mistakes or that I'm better than you. I'm sure there are mistakes I make that you could easily avoid. People are different. But we only grow by learning from our mistakes.

Yes, I understand that her vote looked scummy to you. But the truth of the matter is that she was town. And her vote actually was innocent. I don't get to be the judge of what looks innocent to you. But I'm certainly the judge of what looks innocent to me. And just because I was right here and you were wrong is not a dig at your skill. I'm just pointing out the facts.

If you want to continue pushing the angle on the idea that I couldn't possibly be justified in holding a suspicion I genuinely held, then the only conclusion I can draw is that you are just like Frog - someone who thinks only your view of the world is correct and everyone else who has a different view doesn't know how to play the game.

Look, I'm not saying I'm 100% right about what's going to happen next. Or that my view is always wrong. I could've been wrong about SilverWolf and you could've been right. However, that's not what happened. It doesn't mean I'm always correct or that anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. Just that in this one occasion, you were wrong, and you should learn from it.

If that's the case, I wouldn't have won the most games here last year, I wouldn't have won Syndicate MVP, I wouldn't be the nom for the championships. Get out of your own ass and stop calling my genuine suspicions 'mistakes'. I'm allowed to hold them. You don't get to tell me who I do or don't suspect.

I called it a mistake because it was a mistake. You were wrong about SilverWolf. I'm not sure what the argument is here. You don't have to be perfect. Everyone makes mistakes.

And as for telling you who to suspect or not, I disagree there. I definitely get to tell you, and anyone else in a game with me, who to suspect and who not to suspect. Doesn't mean you, or they, have to listen to me. Doesn't even mean that I'm right. Just that we all have our opinions and we can't all always be right.

Also, I'm no scrub either. I've won the most games in my home board for the last 2 years, I haven't lost a game as scum in more than 6 months (just won my 7th consecutive scum win), and I'm the nominee from my board (was also nominated along with Soneji last year but we collectively decided he was the better choice).

[Golden]

How is it irrelevant? A mistake is when you make an error. And you made an error in judging SilverWolf's post.

No I didn't. It got me a town read. There's a much higher chance I ended up scum reading her without it, thanks to her tunneling on MP, if I hadn't engaged with her over that original vote.

Engaging is how you develop reads. Engaging is not a mistake. An incorrect read that leads to a discussion that leads to a better read is, for me, exactly how things should work.

[Golden]

This is why I can't understand your whole 'it could be avoided' thing. It's like.. why would I want to avoid the discussion that allowed me to get a correct read on silverwolf? Makes no sense to me.

[ika]

This logic should also apply to MovingPictures, no?

it should

[Marco]

Silver never really seriously suspected me, at least I didn't feel so. I can tell the difference between someone who seems fixated on me and someone who just seems to be having a nibble at me. Also, don't forget that when I was arguing with zebra I had three votes and noone else had more than one.

Oh, that's something I didn't realize. One vote is still more than no votes, but this is a more understandable position.

Are you basically saying that it was just that your emotions overtook you?

In a sense, I guess you could say that's what I'm saying. Not anger or that kind of emotion. Just, there comes a point where I stop caring - even though I also simultaneously do really care. I don't know if that really makes sense, but it is factually whats going on it those posts. It's the dichotomy of trying to convince someone I'm good while simultaneously not caring at all about who dies. Even if I didn't care at all about the game and its outcome, I'd still fight for my life in the game. I just... can't not!

Would you say you've done similar things in other games? Plays that would be considered anti-town in a burst of emotion?

There never was a question of her getting lynched though.

Who says? Just because she didn't have votes then? That was her argument too. You never know who might find what suspicious later. Frankly, I knew there would be some people who found her approach to me in that conversation suspicious and would come down on my side. Who is to say zebra wouldn't end up lynched. I can't predict things with such accuracy.

I was talking from an angle of self-preservation. You had 3 votes. Others had votes. She had 0 votes. When the "others" are your scum-read and she's your town-read, you can see what I mean about how there shouldn't be a question of her being lynched, right?

I assumed the hierarchy was there for a reason.

It is. The people I call 'mild town read' are the ones that are the weakest. The ones that are 'moderate town read' I have more than a slight lean on, and the 'strong town read' I feel very strongly about.

I don't rank people within categories, if thats what you mean. That would feel arbitrary to me.

Yes, that's what I thought you'd done.

[Golden]

If you want to take me to task for a mistake - Frog was the mistake. Not Silverwolf.

And I know you're no scrub yourself. But, you know, you won't catch any implication from me that you are anything less than stellar. I think everyone in this game that I know or who I've come to know in playing this game is basically stellar. This is a next level lineup.

[Golden]

Would you say you've done similar things in other games? Plays that would be considered anti-town in a burst of emotion?

I don't agree that it's anti-town to try and find different ways to convince people I'm town when I am in fact town, but yes I don't have any problem roasting tunnelers in unorthodox ways that people who aren't accustomed to me might find unusual.

[Marco]

How is it irrelevant? A mistake is when you make an error. And you made an error in judging SilverWolf's post.

No I didn't. It got me a town read. There's a much higher chance I ended up scum reading her without it, thanks to her tunneling on MP, if I hadn't engaged with her over that original vote.

Engaging is how you develop reads. Engaging is not a mistake. An incorrect read that leads to a discussion that leads to a better read is, for me, exactly how things should work.

This is why I can't understand your whole 'it could be avoided' thing. It's like.. why would I want to avoid the discussion that allowed me to get a correct read on silverwolf? Makes no sense to me.

Eh, that's my point. If you had read her vote as innocent, like it actually was, you probably wouldn't have even scum-read her. eg: Zebra decides you're townie after all. Don't you think she made a mistake in her initial assessment and you guys could've avoided the whole thing if she hadn't?

[Golden]

When the "others" are your scum-read and she's your town-read, you can see what I mean about how there shouldn't be a question of her being lynched, right?

But there is always a question of who will be lynched. I don't think it should ever be taken as clear cut that someone won't be lynched. Did Frog see a Frog lynch coming?

[ika]

hey golden, why are you misrepresenting silvers stances? she never voted sonji becasue he didnt post anythign yet. she will go after low content lurkers day1 but not a non-poster, there is a distinct diffrence in that.

not only that but she has fully explained how she thinks MPs interactions, case, and entire play is jsut full of scum motivation.

not only that now, he has said that it is scum vig who did the kill and not considered it to be town vig. sig did the same, the only way this can be is that one of two thing are true

A) they are scum who know its scum vig
B) they are PR where a scum vig is exsiting

[Marco]

If you want to take me to task for a mistake - Frog was the mistake. Not Silverwolf.

And I know you're no scrub yourself. But, you know, you won't catch any implication from me that you are anything less than stellar. I think everyone in this game that I know or who I've come to know in playing this game is basically stellar. This is a next level lineup.

That was never my intention. It's why I even put the "mistake" under quotations. Error would me a more accurate description.

Don't you think that Zebra made a mistake in her scum-read of you and that it could have been avoided?

But there is always a question of who will be lynched. I don't think it should ever be taken as clear cut that someone won't be lynched. Did Frog see a Frog lynch coming?

I'm not talking about the nature of lynches. I was talking about Silver being your town-read (with 0 votes) and the other wagons being your scum-reads (with at least 1 vote each).

[Marco]

hey golden, why are you misrepresenting silvers stances? she never voted sonji becasue he didnt post anythign yet. she will go after low content lurkers day1 but not a non-poster, there is a distinct diffrence in that.

not only that but she has fully explained how she thinks MPs interactions, case, and entire play is jsut full of scum motivation.

not only that now, he has said that it is scum vig who did the kill and not considered it to be town vig. sig did the same, the only way this can be is that one of two thing are true

A) they are scum who know its scum vig
B) they are PR where a scum vig is exsiting

Do you mean sig?

[Golden]

How is it irrelevant? A mistake is when you make an error. And you made an error in judging SilverWolf's post.

No I didn't. It got me a town read. There's a much higher chance I ended up scum reading her without it, thanks to her tunneling on MP, if I hadn't engaged with her over that original vote.

Engaging is how you develop reads. Engaging is not a mistake. An incorrect read that leads to a discussion that leads to a better read is, for me, exactly how things should work.

This is why I can't understand your whole 'it could be avoided' thing. It's like.. why would I want to avoid the discussion that allowed me to get a correct read on silverwolf? Makes no sense to me.

Eh, that's my point. If you had read her vote as innocent, like it actually was, you probably wouldn't have even scum-read her. eg: Zebra decides you're townie after all. Don't you think she made a mistake in her initial assessment and you guys could've avoided the whole thing if she hadn't?

Well, no, because I wouldn't have 'anything' read her, but then she did keep bobbling back to MP later, and that conduct would have been suspicious to me if not for our original conversation.

The point is, I got a much stronger read from her out of my engagement over what I found suspicious from her and forcing her to justify it, than I would have gotten from other content. That read was able to overcome the other behaviour that I would have scum read.

I guess I just disagree with the whole concept that 'avoiding the whole thing' is in some way of benefit. I prefer not to 'avoid the whole thing'. I prefer to HAVE the whole thing.

[ika]

and FTR marco has pretty much hit all the points i would be making by now on this golden vs silver stuff.

[Golden]

hey golden, why are you misrepresenting silvers stances?

Entirely irrelevant. Silver is clearly town and dead. I'm only interested in representing what my perception of her stances was, for the purposes of responding to Marco's questions. She is dead ika. Her affiliation is known. You can stop defending her now.

[ika]

hey golden, why are you misrepresenting silvers stances? she never voted sonji becasue he didnt post anythign yet. she will go after low content lurkers day1 but not a non-poster, there is a distinct diffrence in that.

not only that but she has fully explained how she thinks MPs interactions, case, and entire play is jsut full of scum motivation.

not only that now, he has said that it is scum vig who did the kill and not considered it to be town vig. sig did the same, the only way this can be is that one of two thing are true

A) they are scum who know its scum vig
B) they are PR where a scum vig is exsiting

Do you mean sig?

regaridn the PR thing? no, both MP and sig did it

if its the misrepresenations and narrative of how things unfoleded, i mean goldenm hes activly still trying to discredit a CONFIRMED TOWN

[Golden]

If you want to take me to task for a mistake - Frog was the mistake. Not Silverwolf.

And I know you're no scrub yourself. But, you know, you won't catch any implication from me that you are anything less than stellar. I think everyone in this game that I know or who I've come to know in playing this game is basically stellar. This is a next level lineup.

That was never my intention. It's why I even put the "mistake" under quotations. Error would me a more accurate description.

Don't you think that Zebra made a mistake in her scum-read of you and that it could have been avoided?

But there is always a question of who will be lynched. I don't think it should ever be taken as clear cut that someone won't be lynched. Did Frog see a Frog lynch coming?

I'm not talking about the nature of lynches. I was talking about Silver being your town-read (with 0 votes) and the other wagons being your scum-reads (with at least 1 vote each).

My vote on zebra was never going to end on zebra. No matter how frustrated I might be, I've never going to end with my vote on a town read. The vote was a tactical attempt to get zebra to recognise my town meta.

[ika]

hey golden, why are you misrepresenting silvers stances?

Entirely irrelevant. Silver is clearly town and dead. I'm only interested in representing what my perception of her stances was, for the purposes of responding to Marco's questions. She is dead ika. Her affiliation is known. You can stop defending her now.

you realize if you are going to championship game you have to also realize that this kind of stuff is going to happen.

im not tryign to defend her, im going after you

also MM ill try makng my case in a min, i really suck with them

[Golden]

and FTR marco has pretty much hit all the points i would be making by now on this golden vs silver stuff.

You made them all AT THE TIME.

There is no need for you to make them again.

[ika]

MP case:

super defensive and cautious
Constantly discrediting me and silver
weak case on me to try to set me up
info knowledges slip about a scum vig not thinking about the town vig perspective

Sig case:

super zealous compared to how he was in turf
info knowledges slip about a scum vig not thinking about the town vig perspective

[ika]

and FTR marco has pretty much hit all the points i would be making by now on this golden vs silver stuff.

You made them all AT THE TIME.

There is no need for you to make them again.

golden, you rlaize what im doing is more thn jsut defending her, im getting you ready for champ game too.

[Golden]

and FTR marco has pretty much hit all the points i would be making by now on this golden vs silver stuff.

You made them all AT THE TIME.

There is no need for you to make them again.

golden, you rlaize what im doing is more thn jsut defending her, im getting you ready for champ game too.

And I'm treating you exactly as I'd treat someone who said the same thing in the champs game

Because if I'm asked about my reasons for an incorrect read, I'm going to accurately explain those reasons even though hindsight has proven them incorrect. And if someone tells me that, in doing so, I'm trying to discredit a dead civilian, I'll dismiss it pretty quickly. I wouldn't want to give it air time.

[Golden]

FWIW, ika. I townread you and I townread silver too. And, you will see at end game that I did not kill silver.

Frankly, if I was mafia and I was going to kill one of you, I would have killed you but only because I think it sucks that silver is on such a NK streak.

[Golden]

1AM.

Stupid. I am much too busy and tired for doing this to myself.

Going to bed.

[sig]

I like this list, I'd bump sloonie up to null though. I believe Dizzy is town.

I like how I'm town once I agree more with your reads lol.

Yes. :P

Soneji, are you still here? I want to talk about sig. I haven't fully digested your suspicion of him, so I'll take a look at that momentarily as well. Nonetheless, it'd be nice to have a succinct summary of your read on him and the intensity of that read.

I'm very hard to digest might give you heart burn.

The point on Sloonie re Frog was good, very weird for him to do. However, Frog flipped civ it would look worse for Sloonie if Frog had flipped mafia. I'll think on it though.

[sig]

When does the lynch end?