The Syndicate

Epignosis wrote:If I get lynched, I hope Golden gets 95% of the votes tomorrow for his narrow-minded appraisal.

If you think Golden is being narrow-minded that means he is a civ.

Remember: civ Golden is a hurricane of self-assurance. Bad Golden is a coward. The one you want to punch in the face is good, the one you like is bad.

I should be skeptical about the idea of having a flawless meta tell on Golden but please let me enjoy it while it lasts.

sig wrote:@DDL What do you think of my MM case? @EPI same to you.

Didn't read it, I'm trying to skim everything. I'll read it tomorrow.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:I should be skeptical about the idea of having a flawless meta tell on Golden but please let me enjoy it while it lasts.

The reason it's not flawless is because I can be the latter when good too. But when I'm the former, I'm always good.

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:If I get lynched, I hope Golden gets 95% of the votes tomorrow for his narrow-minded appraisal.

Why is my appraisal narrow-minded?

Because it is.

Well put.

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:Oh, in the mean time, if you think I'm bad, as you've claimed since day one, why have you still never voted for me... why don't you just get a move on and put your money where your mouth is?

I think lots of people are bad. I can't lynch them all at once, now can I? I just posted something substantial about Eloh and I want to hear what she has to say. Voting you early without hearing the cases on other people and weighing the evidence that comes in is so...well, narrow-minded.

So I've been bad since day one, but others just keep getting in the way first. Yeah. Five days of suspecting me, but still never enough for a vote... despite saying things like this:

Epignosis wrote:You are evil. I am coming for you.

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:I see no reason to hope I get lynched AFTER you die instead of before it, if you actually think I'm bad...

Just out of spite for your poor Day 5 performance.

This from the guy who said this about me:

Epignosis wrote:Some civilian you are if you are one.

Well here's something for you to add to how calculating I've been:

I no longer think you're bad. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I know your precise role.

If you make one more post about knowing something about other players but refuse to explain why I'm gonna vote you out of spite.

You claim this is so people won't spend the day arguing with you but they are already doing it because you won't stop being a cagey smartass about everything.

Put your cards on the table already.

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:God help us if people think I'm not putting any thought into this.

A lot of effort, sure. But the apparent "thought" all seems very false to me.

If you are a civilian, you are wasting your evening gathering the masses in my direction.

And if I get lynched, and you see my role, I want you to look back over my posts and see how you didn't do any damn thinking.

See, here's the thing epi. You keep saying things like this, treating me as a civilian who will see the error of my ways later. But yet you claim you still see me as bad?

Where did I say I still see you as bad? I said the opposite a little while ago. Did you miss it? Here.

Yeah, I read it backwards as saying you did still suspect me (and thought you knew my specific baddie role). And in that case, about fucking time. I've spent a horrible amount of energy getting you, specifically, to see it.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:If I get lynched, I hope Golden gets 95% of the votes tomorrow for his narrow-minded appraisal.

Why is my appraisal narrow-minded?

Because it is.

Well put.

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:Oh, in the mean time, if you think I'm bad, as you've claimed since day one, why have you still never voted for me... why don't you just get a move on and put your money where your mouth is?

I think lots of people are bad. I can't lynch them all at once, now can I? I just posted something substantial about Eloh and I want to hear what she has to say. Voting you early without hearing the cases on other people and weighing the evidence that comes in is so...well, narrow-minded.

So I've been bad since day one, but others just keep getting in the way first. Yeah. Five days of suspecting me, but still never enough for a vote... despite saying things like this:

Epignosis wrote:You are evil. I am coming for you.

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:I see no reason to hope I get lynched AFTER you die instead of before it, if you actually think I'm bad...

Just out of spite for your poor Day 5 performance.

This from the guy who said this about me:

Epignosis wrote:Some civilian you are if you are one.

Well here's something for you to add to how calculating I've been:

I no longer think you're bad. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I know your precise role.

If you make one more post about knowing something about other players but refuse to explain why I'm gonna vote you out of spite.

You claim this is so people won't spend the day arguing with you but they are already doing it because you won't stop being a cagey smartass about everything.

Put your cards on the table already.

No.

I'll do a summary of epi's suspicion on me, btw, for those who want to judge my reasons for suspecting him. I suspect him because I believe his suspicion of me is false, and that he's had to design reasons to find me as bad rather than coming to a genuine assessment.

Day 1 - epi calls me bad for 'lecturing Jack every which way from Sunday' and asks what the point of it is? Even Jack sees the point. Epi does not ever return to my response or Jack's perspective on it. He just leaves it as is, a

Day 3 - Epi says 'I suspect golden' out of the blue and asks others for their view. He says it's about this post that I made to justify my vote on soneji on day two. I note that Epi never actually asked me to clarify why I thought the sprit vote made soneji look worse. He just decided to hang me for it, on what basis? I even said I would have voted sprit over DDL if I had been around with a vote up my sleeve at deadline, so it's not that I thought ANY vote on sprit was bad.

It should be noted that when I voted, sprit was the only person with two votes, and soneji had spent much more of the day talking about mechanics than suspects. The only person he even really discussed was a couple of throwaway comments about glorf being unwilling to comment on his affiliation (something that sig's case was despite, not because of). I didn't find soneji's vote indicative of someone trying to find baddies, but just someone taking an easy vote. It would even have been an easy bus (and perfect timing for one). If epi had asked, he would have had a response like that.

Instead, he just allowed others to think negatively about me and threw some heat at me without actually trying to get to the bottom of my mindset.

Night 3 - Epi accuses me of calling him out - he says that this post is me 'turning things around on him'. Even in that same post he says all I'm doing is 'bitching at DDL'. Which is true, because I'm pointing out the inconsistency of DDL's mindset and wasn't expressing any suspicion of epi at all (read the post, and read the context around it - not once do I say or imply that I thought DDL and epi were teammates. At the very same time I also called out his omission of soneji and expressly linked them as being teammates. Yet somehow, what epi takes out of this is that I was turning it around on to him.

But when I said I didn't turn it around on him, he just replied with a deaf ear.

Once again, it appears of more interest to epi to smear me than to invest in finding out what's going on in my head.

It's at about this time (because three times is enough) that I start feeling as though I should push epi and we begin to get into some real discussion. I'm not sure I need to recap it as closely because it's fresh, but lets just point out the highlights of epi's suspicion:

He calls me bad in capitals but then says I should chill about it because I'm third on the list. Once again, it feels to me like a way to discredit me without ever having to worry about looking bad for it.

He spends pages claiming he is not making a case about my schedule while doing timestamps and listing all the posts I've made within a time period to refute my statements about my schedule. He holds it together by having a go at my use of the word 'literally'. Let's be clear, this entire part of the case was epi saying 'why didn't you defend Snow Dog when it mattered' (something you can only possibly do if you are around reading the thread to do), refusing to accept over and over my answer that was I wasn't around to do it, and then claimed again and again that the case wasn't about my schedule even though the whole basis of his case was why I didn't do something at a particular point in time.

I'll also note that during that period he used sentences like this... the kind I find baddies like to use to appear certain:

Epignosis wrote:But if you're good as you pretend to be...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Having done all that - epi's willigness to change tack on me finally is interesting. Interesting enough that I'd probably have chosen to go eloh now just to see how it develops.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Put your cards on the table already.

If Epi thinks he knows my role and no longer suspects me because of that, why is it beneficial for the town for him to put his cards on the table?

I still want to hear what Eloh has to say first.

However, for those of you think we're teammates, lynch her first. If you lynch me first, how will she know where to vote the next day?

I like sig's MM case as well.

Ok here are the facts.

I skipped most of Day 4/Night 4.

I skimmed most of everything else.

I don't have anything close to resembling reads here. Even MP seems to have a better grasp on reads than me in this game and I'm pretty sure he hasn't been active for 90% of it. I'm a big mess. I probably used to have reads in the past but those reads became a jumbled mess after I got left behind 2 or 3 times.

I'm pretty sure I suspected LC in the past and that didn't stop being a thing but I haven't found any reasons to suspect him further so I'm stuck on a limbo.

I'm mostly sticking to pointing out things on a post-by-post basis, which, if I understand correctly, is the one thing I do best as a civ. I wish I could do more though. But hectic end of semester at work then being angry at Golden for a while then 9 hours of travel when vacation ended and now a headache because I didn't sleep much last night aren't helping.

Quin says something that makes me suspicious 3 times every 2 posts but something in my mind tells me that is default Quin so I shouldn't bother.

(and no Quin, i'm not gonna comb your ISO to point out those things to you. Fuck off)

I don't even know how to begin to read Epi. He is doing a lot of groundwork, which is cool. But isn't something he does all the time. But he is one of the hardest to read players in existance, losing only to Golden/MM/Marco/Soneji maybe. MAYBE.

I'm gonna go the lazy route and vote Eloh. I didn't like her argument with Dom at all. I'm not very sold on Dom, but I liked his posts about her. I don't like her sheeping very much either. I'm gonna trust the people who made more elaborate cases on her.

Good night.

Also Quin, what is your GTH read on me? I noticed you stopped talking about me for some reason.

Oh yeah I have had some mildly suspicion on MM since forever so if you guys want to lynch him I give me half-assed support of it. I lack the brain power to properly attempt an MM read right now though, so I'll stay out of it.

Also I'm just reading my own sentence about MP in the previous post and I find that paradoxical. Someone look at MP's iso and see if it makes sense for him to have reads despite not being active. Well it's a tinfoil but every tinfoil is worth pointing out.

Long Con wrote:

Elohcin wrote:I can vouch for Epi here. Food items, Calling someone Sir, and uh....oh yeah, having someone say "as a baddie". Epi can do better than that. Sorry to whoever is coming up with those curses. But those are pretty lame. I mean, I guess the Sir one was pretty clever, but other than that.

If Epi is bad, he is on the baddie team without the Sir, I would think. But then if he were on that team, he wouldn't have voted Glor/Sprit, I would think.

*sigh* - still not sure what to think of Epi. I will need to see more of him and his votes before I can understand him better.

Can you point out anything in here that you wouldn't say if you were on a baddie team with Epi?

I wouldn't say any of the underlined if we were on a baddie team together. I would avoid having to defend my teammates. It's just how I play. When I first started playing mafia, I would get a little angry (not a lot, but just a bit), if a teammate would call me out in the thread. Now I welcome it. You don't want to show who your teammates are by always defending them. You also don't want to avoid them altogether either. I *think* I have learned how to tell myself, "you are civ and you have no teammates" when I am bad. And I have some games to prove that I have gotten better at it.

Epignosis wrote:

Elohcin wrote:@Epi - about the wilgy and MM Sir curse. I can see wilgy coming up with it b/c he is a bit zany. I don't see MM as that zany.

I don't regard the "Sir" curse as especially zany, but I do think MM can be about as zany as Wilgy.

However it wasn't just the Sir curse in context. LC's idea was that I personally would curse you (the teammate) for "triple WIFOM."

Spoiler: show

Long Con wrote:Well, as long as this one is going to take off, I do actually have an opinion that I've been holding back because I didn't want to get nightkilled. No, I'm being serious.

Epi and Elo are on a team. And that team is the Guardians, of course - they can't be Troupe because they voted Glorfyo. That's the team with VP Nero, the curser. Elo's curse was a double-whammy self-hit for the team, in that she was cursed or cursed herself to call Epi Sir (a member of the Guardians) in every post. It's kind of triple WIFOM: Elo gets cursed, Epi bears the brunt, and she calls him a role on their team. Maybe his role, I don't know if it's that extra delicious or not. My gut would say 'yes', because why not?

Knowing (and I'm going off meta here which may be eight months or so out of date) that Epi is often asked what his opinion of Elo is, and is supposedly often right, Epi's (I believe) first opinion of Elo is that she is bad. Then he allows himself to talk himself out of it because of logical reasons, and threatens suspicion on those who disagree:

Epignosis wrote:I have some suspicion of Eloh, but she's been cursed (however mildly), and I don't care for the way some here have tried to force me into staying suspicious of her when there is some evidence in her favor.

This is what I believe is going on here. I just think it all fits, it all makes sense to me. This is what happens when Epi and Elo are on a team together. Nothing I have seen since I started thinking about this has made me believe it less. I do think he believes what he says about Dom and Quin, and he may be awesome and be right.

It was bizarre to see you say you could see Wilgy doing this over MM when the constant in question was you (i.e., the teammate).

Anyway...

The reason I asked about MM and Wilgy is that MM is alive and Wilgy is dead, and I consider them more or less equally zany.

In your post, you said:

Elohcin wrote:I'm not sure about MM, but wilgy for sure. Was he alive at that point? If so...I can try to do one of those ISO things on him today after the kids are done with school. Maybe it will further support my suspicions of Dom J/k. Or am I?!

This implies that you know Wilgy was bad.

The Hook-Handed Man – He may discover the identity of a dead player every night.

Mafias with this ability are generally eager to learn the role of the person they killed. And guess what?

14. Wilgy - killed by Count Olaf Night 3

That means Wilgy would be checked Night 4.

It's Day 5.

Tell me- did you throw Glorfindel's replacement under the bus?

You specifically asked about MM and Wilgy...that is why I a referred to those two people. I don't see how you think I that means I know wilgy is bad. I thought you were trying to imagine a scenario where either mm or wilgy was bad and I simply said I can see wilgy coming up with the Sir curse, but not mm. I guess I just don;t see mm as zany as wilgy. And I wasn't just talking about the Sir thing in and of itself. I was talking about what LC mentioned...the triple WIFOM thing.

I did not throw Sprit (glorf's replacement) under the bus. I am not the Hook-Handed man. Why would I throw a teammate under the bus like that? If I were bad, I would want to keep my teammates, not get rid of them.

------

not quoting your post, but yes, it didn't take much for me to jump on Glorf/Sprit. I have been bad with Glorf before and no offense to him, he is difficult to be a baddie with. He won't lie. He hates being a baddie. So, when I found out he replaced out, I thought....he must have been bad and couldn't take it anymore. I can spot a bad Glorf very easily.

------

oh my goodness, two more pages. I have to go do laundry. I will post this now and keep reading in a bit.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Also Quin, what is your GTH read on me? I noticed you stopped talking about me for some reason.

I'd still say you're bad. I'm choosing to back off from arguing with you to just observe how you carry yourself for now, because the former isn't helping me read you. I've still been talking about you though. Just not directly at you.

Sorsha wrote:Here is my post from yesterday. Nothing has changed for me. It seems from what I have read today that others are seeing Epi as bad too. I'll likely vote for Eloh or Epi today.

Sorsha wrote:I feel like there's something up between Epi and Eloh, I commented on this last night too but I'll go through it again.

Epi called out Golden, Quin and Eloh as bad. Talked about wanting to lynch Eloh even. Then night happened. Quin and Golden aren't lynch options and so Epi backs off the Eloh suspicion today. Sorry I'm on my phone right now or I'd pull quotes for this.

But I think it's a weird situation.

I could vote for either Epi or Eloh and probably will.

The only thing up between Epi and Elo is a big 'ol d*ck But don;t worry, it won't be up for long.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist)

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Elohcin wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Especially given time constraints, I'm much preferring playing more like Vompatti or the Marmot than I am like typical MP. Maybe I won't play more like my usual self then.

Honey, you aren't playing at all.

You sure about that?

Now you have me wondering. Have you been killing people, MP? I can totally see the being the case, quiet killer MP.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Eloh being super judgemental of Dom because he won't catch up is uncanny.

I don't think I've ever seen Eloh care about that.

Specially since I don't think I've ever seen Eloh be caught up in any game.

Then you have never played a speed game with me. I am always caught up in speed games.

I am not judgemental of Dom not catching up. I am judgemental of his crazy attitude since he's come back.

---------

I now only have one more page to read.

but before I do, DDL, how can you vote before letting me address your posts? That's not nice.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:

Dom wrote:I didn't have bad posts because I wasn't bad. Your framing of it that way is very... eye opening. I was not responsible for my lynch. You people were for not even bothering to wait to see me defend. It's sad and shitty civilian play by you all.

You continue to misinform people on the reasons I ssuspect quin. Why?

Everybody is responsible for their lynch in one way or another.

You spent a day attacking Glorf and then before you left you made a vote against the person with the most votes after Glorf. Your lynch was a result of basic vote analysis. It was textbook distancing followed by trying to save a teammate.

Sure, you were a civ so you couldn't have known. But from our perspective, you were uber-scum. And when you could have saved yourself by defending yourself, you didn't.

That doesn't mean I think you made a bad decision. You spent a day with your family. That's awesome. We should all spend more time with our families instead of playing mafia. But part of the responsibility for the lynch still lies on you. You made a choice, and reaped the consequences of it. The good ones and the bad ones.

You are not guilty, but you are still responsible.

Nah. Y'all have shit mafia etiquette. That's all. Not only is it kind of rude, but it's bad play too. I will accept 5% responsibility.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Ok here are the facts.

I skipped most of Day 4/Night 4.

I skimmed most of everything else.

I don't have anything close to resembling reads here. Even MP seems to have a better grasp on reads than me in this game and I'm pretty sure he hasn't been active for 90% of it. I'm a big mess. I probably used to have reads in the past but those reads became a jumbled mess after I got left behind 2 or 3 times.

Just want to make sure a certain someone reads this.

gonna go check my spaghetti!

Epignosis wrote:Damn it, Eloh hurry up with that laundry and bathing those kids!

I'm SUPERWOMAN!!! (who is still folding laundry).

ANd now I have to go work on plating dinner/preparing drinks, etc.

Epi, what did you want to hear from me? I am guessing you are back in the thread now since you just finished dinner.

Elohcin wrote:

Sorsha wrote:Here is my post from yesterday. Nothing has changed for me. It seems from what I have read today that others are seeing Epi as bad too. I'll likely vote for Eloh or Epi today.

Sorsha wrote:I feel like there's something up between Epi and Eloh, I commented on this last night too but I'll go through it again.

Epi called out Golden, Quin and Eloh as bad. Talked about wanting to lynch Eloh even. Then night happened. Quin and Golden aren't lynch options and so Epi backs off the Eloh suspicion today. Sorry I'm on my phone right now or I'd pull quotes for this.

But I think it's a weird situation.

I could vote for either Epi or Eloh and probably will.

The only thing up between Epi and Elo is a big 'ol d*ck But don;t worry, it won't be up for long.

Whose is it?

Elohcin wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Damn it, Eloh hurry up with that laundry and bathing those kids!

I'm SUPERWOMAN!!! (who is still folding laundry).

ANd now I have to go work on plating dinner/preparing drinks, etc.

Epi, what did you want to hear from me? I am guessing you are back in the thread now since you just finished dinner.

I'll get to it. See you at the table.

sig wrote:Sorsha what do you think of MM?

I like your case but would MM really be that blatant about defending a teammate?

I think I'd more believe that he is on the opposite team from sprit/glorf and thought he was defending a civ.

Ah well I could roll with that to Sorsha, I'm just pretty sure he's bad. IF he is on the other team we should have 3/4 of votes on him just in case. However, I still subscribe to my theory he is on glorf's team.

Elohcin wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Elohcin wrote:@Epi - about the wilgy and MM Sir curse. I can see wilgy coming up with it b/c he is a bit zany. I don't see MM as that zany.

I don't regard the "Sir" curse as especially zany, but I do think MM can be about as zany as Wilgy.

However it wasn't just the Sir curse in context. LC's idea was that I personally would curse you (the teammate) for "triple WIFOM."

Spoiler: show

Long Con wrote:Well, as long as this one is going to take off, I do actually have an opinion that I've been holding back because I didn't want to get nightkilled. No, I'm being serious.

Epi and Elo are on a team. And that team is the Guardians, of course - they can't be Troupe because they voted Glorfyo. That's the team with VP Nero, the curser. Elo's curse was a double-whammy self-hit for the team, in that she was cursed or cursed herself to call Epi Sir (a member of the Guardians) in every post. It's kind of triple WIFOM: Elo gets cursed, Epi bears the brunt, and she calls him a role on their team. Maybe his role, I don't know if it's that extra delicious or not. My gut would say 'yes', because why not?

Knowing (and I'm going off meta here which may be eight months or so out of date) that Epi is often asked what his opinion of Elo is, and is supposedly often right, Epi's (I believe) first opinion of Elo is that she is bad. Then he allows himself to talk himself out of it because of logical reasons, and threatens suspicion on those who disagree:

Epignosis wrote:I have some suspicion of Eloh, but she's been cursed (however mildly), and I don't care for the way some here have tried to force me into staying suspicious of her when there is some evidence in her favor.

This is what I believe is going on here. I just think it all fits, it all makes sense to me. This is what happens when Epi and Elo are on a team together. Nothing I have seen since I started thinking about this has made me believe it less. I do think he believes what he says about Dom and Quin, and he may be awesome and be right.

It was bizarre to see you say you could see Wilgy doing this over MM when the constant in question was you (i.e., the teammate).

Anyway...

The reason I asked about MM and Wilgy is that MM is alive and Wilgy is dead, and I consider them more or less equally zany.

In your post, you said:

Elohcin wrote:I'm not sure about MM, but wilgy for sure. Was he alive at that point? If so...I can try to do one of those ISO things on him today after the kids are done with school. Maybe it will further support my suspicions of Dom J/k. Or am I?!

This implies that you know Wilgy was bad.

The Hook-Handed Man – He may discover the identity of a dead player every night.

Mafias with this ability are generally eager to learn the role of the person they killed. And guess what?

14. Wilgy - killed by Count Olaf Night 3

That means Wilgy would be checked Night 4.

It's Day 5.

Tell me- did you throw Glorfindel's replacement under the bus?

You specifically asked about MM and Wilgy...that is why I a referred to those two people. I don't see how you think I that means I know wilgy is bad. I thought you were trying to imagine a scenario where either mm or wilgy was bad and I simply said I can see wilgy coming up with the Sir curse, but not mm. I guess I just don;t see mm as zany as wilgy. And I wasn't just talking about the Sir thing in and of itself. I was talking about what LC mentioned...the triple WIFOM thing.

I did not throw Sprit (glorf's replacement) under the bus. I am not the Hook-Handed man. Why would I throw a teammate under the bus like that? If I were bad, I would want to keep my teammates, not get rid of them.

I don't know why you would volunteer to do "one of those ISO things" on Wilgy. I have never seen you attempt one of those.

Why would you choose Wilgy over anybody else to analyze? There's a lot of dead people who have been killed by civilians. Any of those could be mafia. Wilgy: The guy you say is zanier than MM. What would you even hope to attain from reading his (super zany) posts? And how would that help you understand Dom? Wilgy mentioned Dom twice. Once when Dom had seven votes, and once to say "I don't trust Jack. I didn't trust Jack before the Dom thing."

You think Wilgy (or his team) "Sir cursed" you and that was "triple WIFOM?" Again, you're the constant in Long Con's theory. For that to be true, Wilgy would have to be your teammate.

I still like my theory about the dead checker though. That's just too many damn coincidences lined up in a row.

sig, I still have to look at what you wrote again about MM. While I'm doing that, be a dear and look at what I wrote about my dear.

sig wrote:Ah well I could roll with that to Sorsha, I'm just pretty sure he's bad. IF he is on the other team we should have 3/4 of votes on him just in case. However, I still subscribe to my theory he is on glorf's team.

Wouldn't that mess with lynching Esme if she happens to be one of the other lynchees?

I love how Eloh's defense is all like "I'm not scummy like you think cause I'm good at mafia, now."

Like congrats but I still think you're bad.

Sorsha wrote:

sig wrote:Ah well I could roll with that to Sorsha, I'm just pretty sure he's bad. IF he is on the other team we should have 3/4 of votes on him just in case. However, I still subscribe to my theory he is on glorf's team.

Wouldn't that mess with lynching Esme if she happens to be one of the other lynchees?

Well that's true.

Epignosis wrote:sig, I still have to look at what you wrote again about MM. While I'm doing that, be a dear and look at what I wrote about my dear.

On it.

I did skim it before it seemed logically, but I'll read it in depth in a moment.

sig, I'm reading through your stuff. Do you think Jack is bad?

Epignosis wrote:

Elohcin wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Elohcin wrote:@Epi - about the wilgy and MM Sir curse. I can see wilgy coming up with it b/c he is a bit zany. I don't see MM as that zany.

I don't regard the "Sir" curse as especially zany, but I do think MM can be about as zany as Wilgy.

However it wasn't just the Sir curse in context. LC's idea was that I personally would curse you (the teammate) for "triple WIFOM."

Spoiler: show

Long Con wrote:Well, as long as this one is going to take off, I do actually have an opinion that I've been holding back because I didn't want to get nightkilled. No, I'm being serious.

Epi and Elo are on a team. And that team is the Guardians, of course - they can't be Troupe because they voted Glorfyo. That's the team with VP Nero, the curser. Elo's curse was a double-whammy self-hit for the team, in that she was cursed or cursed herself to call Epi Sir (a member of the Guardians) in every post. It's kind of triple WIFOM: Elo gets cursed, Epi bears the brunt, and she calls him a role on their team. Maybe his role, I don't know if it's that extra delicious or not. My gut would say 'yes', because why not?

Knowing (and I'm going off meta here which may be eight months or so out of date) that Epi is often asked what his opinion of Elo is, and is supposedly often right, Epi's (I believe) first opinion of Elo is that she is bad. Then he allows himself to talk himself out of it because of logical reasons, and threatens suspicion on those who disagree:

Epignosis wrote:I have some suspicion of Eloh, but she's been cursed (however mildly), and I don't care for the way some here have tried to force me into staying suspicious of her when there is some evidence in her favor.

This is what I believe is going on here. I just think it all fits, it all makes sense to me. This is what happens when Epi and Elo are on a team together. Nothing I have seen since I started thinking about this has made me believe it less. I do think he believes what he says about Dom and Quin, and he may be awesome and be right.

It was bizarre to see you say you could see Wilgy doing this over MM when the constant in question was you (i.e., the teammate).

Anyway...

The reason I asked about MM and Wilgy is that MM is alive and Wilgy is dead, and I consider them more or less equally zany.

In your post, you said:

Elohcin wrote:I'm not sure about MM, but wilgy for sure. Was he alive at that point? If so...I can try to do one of those ISO things on him today after the kids are done with school. Maybe it will further support my suspicions of Dom J/k. Or am I?!

This implies that you know Wilgy was bad.

The Hook-Handed Man – He may discover the identity of a dead player every night.

Mafias with this ability are generally eager to learn the role of the person they killed. And guess what?

14. Wilgy - killed by Count Olaf Night 3

That means Wilgy would be checked Night 4.

It's Day 5.

Tell me- did you throw Glorfindel's replacement under the bus?

You specifically asked about MM and Wilgy...that is why I a referred to those two people. I don't see how you think I that means I know wilgy is bad. I thought you were trying to imagine a scenario where either mm or wilgy was bad and I simply said I can see wilgy coming up with the Sir curse, but not mm. I guess I just don;t see mm as zany as wilgy. And I wasn't just talking about the Sir thing in and of itself. I was talking about what LC mentioned...the triple WIFOM thing.

I did not throw Sprit (glorf's replacement) under the bus. I am not the Hook-Handed man. Why would I throw a teammate under the bus like that? If I were bad, I would want to keep my teammates, not get rid of them.

I don't know why you would volunteer to do "one of those ISO things" on Wilgy. I have never seen you attempt one of those.

Why would you choose Wilgy over anybody else to analyze? There's a lot of dead people who have been killed by civilians. Any of those could be mafia. Wilgy: The guy you say is zanier than MM. What would you even hope to attain from reading his (super zany) posts? And how would that help you understand Dom? Wilgy mentioned Dom twice. Once when Dom had seven votes, and once to say "I don't trust Jack. I didn't trust Jack before the Dom thing."

You think Wilgy (or his team) "Sir cursed" you and that was "triple WIFOM?" Again, you're the constant in Long Con's theory. For that to be true, Wilgy would have to be your teammate.

I still like my theory about the dead checker though. That's just too many damn coincidences lined up in a row.

When I said I would should do an ISO thingy, I was half kidding. I actually have done a few of those before, but they don't do much for me. And I finally understand what you mean by me being the constant. That would mean I Wilgy was my teammate. Haha, I don;t know why I didn't understand what you were saying. I told LC it was a smart theory, but wrong. Then when you brought up MM and Wilgy...I don't know what went wrong in my head. Anyway....still...doesn't mean it wasn't wilgy that cursed me. Could have been.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:I love how Eloh's defense is all like "I'm not scummy like you think cause I'm good at mafia, now."

Like congrats but I still think you're bad.

It's okay, everyone ALWAYS thinks I'm bad. I get lynched as a civ a WHOLE BUNCH b/c people think I'm always bad. But I am one of the top 2 or 3 winners as a mafia. Go check out the hall of fame stuff. Its true.

I can be seen as inconsistent because I don't always explain my thought processes well. And players tend to think I say things that sound baddie all the time even when I am civ. I've learned not to get my panties in a wod about it because then they think even worse of me.

Here's the funny thing- I believe Wilgy was bad. Look at the way he treated me and LC during Day 2. That's not zany. That's a guy with an agenda.

Elohcin wrote:I can be seen as inconsistent because I don't always explain my thought processes well. And players tend to think I say things that sound baddie all the time even when I am civ. I've learned not to get my panties in a wod about it because then they think even worse of me.

I can, at least, vouch that this is a true description of what happens to you as civ and your reaction.

@epi - I think Wilgy could well have been bad. I'll have a look.

PS, Eloh, I think Dom is exactly the same kinda crazy he was the first time.

That's the main reason I'm not following you/whoever else accused him. He may not be taking more than 5% responsibility and he may not be doing a ton to help the town (at least not yet) but I think he's a good guy.

Because of his consistency. That you say he lacks.

I think Dom is that kind of crazy every time out. I don't see it as affiliation-indicative.

Well jack, I think you are civ. So your open and honest opinion means something to me. So thank you for that post. I don't remember reading Somewhere 1.0 as crazy, but I could look back. Who are you thinking of voting?

Linking golden...And what do you have to say for your crazy this game?

Okay...Phone changed d o m to somewhere. And I can't write it even there without spaces because it keeps changing it to some

Reading Wilgy, man he is another one I find very hard to read. But he didn't want to break the tie. Why?

The tie led us to clear four people from sprit's team. On the other hand, wilgy had every appearance of voting LC.. but then didn't. This theoretically makes him look better - 'I didn't stop sprit's lynch with my LC vote'. There is some benefit there for him... also, given the powder-faced woman's ability, there would be a risk of making it clear that both the Powder-faced woman and a teammate were on the LC train if sprit got another vote or two and then LC was lynched.

So, I could see him as sprit's teammate. That has potential.

I can't really make head nor tail of why he spent so much time trying to get Epi to give dirt on someone so he could follow a vote.

Elohcin wrote:Well jack, I think you are civ. So your open and honest opinion means something to me. So thank you for that post. I don't remember reading Somewhere 1.0 as crazy, but I could look back. Who are you thinking of voting?

Linking golden...And what do you have to say for your crazy this game?

I've said it many times eloh - you will never see baddie golden as crazy. Crazy gets you lynched. I don't care about getting lynched when I'm town (my first goal is to find baddies, not to survive). I care about getting lynched when bad (my first goal is to survive for my team).

Golden wrote:Reading Wilgy, man he is another one I find very hard to read. But he didn't want to break the tie. Why?

The tie led us to clear four people from sprit's team. On the other hand, wilgy had every appearance of voting LC.. but then didn't. This theoretically makes him look better - 'I didn't stop sprit's lynch with my LC vote'. There is some benefit there for him... also, given the powder-faced woman's ability, there would be a risk of making it clear that both the Powder-faced woman and a teammate were on the LC train if sprit got another vote or two and then LC was lynched.

So, I could see him as sprit's teammate. That has potential.

I can't really make head nor tail of why he spent so much time trying to get Epi to give dirt on someone so he could follow a vote.

Now try reading Wilgy as being a member of the other team. What do you see?

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:Reading Wilgy, man he is another one I find very hard to read. But he didn't want to break the tie. Why?

The tie led us to clear four people from sprit's team. On the other hand, wilgy had every appearance of voting LC.. but then didn't. This theoretically makes him look better - 'I didn't stop sprit's lynch with my LC vote'. There is some benefit there for him... also, given the powder-faced woman's ability, there would be a risk of making it clear that both the Powder-faced woman and a teammate were on the LC train if sprit got another vote or two and then LC was lynched.

So, I could see him as sprit's teammate. That has potential.

I can't really make head nor tail of why he spent so much time trying to get Epi to give dirt on someone so he could follow a vote.

Now try reading Wilgy as being a member of the other team. What do you see?

I did try that too. I couldn't get a bead on anything specific that points to that team. You? Except if INH is bad (thats a big if), INH is on that team (because of the powder-faced women eliminations), and I could see a possible world in which they were teamies.

We know Nero is around, right? Because Dom is 'nutty'?

Also, I just realised Wilgy was killed by Olaf so he isn't on the first team anyway.

Elohcin wrote:Well jack, I think you are civ. So your open and honest opinion means something to me. So thank you for that post. I don't remember reading Somewhere 1.0 as crazy, but I could look back. Who are you thinking of voting?

Linking golden...And what do you have to say for your crazy this game?

Appreciated, I suppose.

Probably Epi. Getting to be about that time.

Who're you going to vote?

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:Reading Wilgy, man he is another one I find very hard to read. But he didn't want to break the tie. Why?

The tie led us to clear four people from sprit's team. On the other hand, wilgy had every appearance of voting LC.. but then didn't. This theoretically makes him look better - 'I didn't stop sprit's lynch with my LC vote'. There is some benefit there for him... also, given the powder-faced woman's ability, there would be a risk of making it clear that both the Powder-faced woman and a teammate were on the LC train if sprit got another vote or two and then LC was lynched.

So, I could see him as sprit's teammate. That has potential.

I can't really make head nor tail of why he spent so much time trying to get Epi to give dirt on someone so he could follow a vote.

Now try reading Wilgy as being a member of the other team. What do you see?

I did try that too. I couldn't get a bead on anything specific that points to that team. You? Except if INH is bad (thats a big if), INH is on that team (because of the powder-faced women eliminations), and I could see a possible world in which they were teamies.

We know Nero is around, right? Because Dom is 'nutty'?

Also, I just realised Wilgy was killed by Olaf so he isn't on the first team anyway.

Correct, which is why I asked you to consider him on the other team.

Wilgy being bad on that team makes sense though. He fanned the flames but didn't do anything about it outside of voting me. He didn't vote LC or sprityo2.

I think people ignore the dead, and that's a mistake. We have Mr. Poe and Sunny doing work. I have been reading through the dead.

Two hours to go, folks.

Again, if I do get lynched for whatever reason, pay attention to what I'm saying.

I don't think INH is mafia, Wilgy on the other hand I could buy.

Same with MM.

@Epi I see your case on Eloh it has some merit, let me read over her posts real quick though.

Honestly? I don't know something has been off about Jack this game, I could live with lynching him at some point. I'll read him over first.

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:Reading Wilgy, man he is another one I find very hard to read. But he didn't want to break the tie. Why?

The tie led us to clear four people from sprit's team. On the other hand, wilgy had every appearance of voting LC.. but then didn't. This theoretically makes him look better - 'I didn't stop sprit's lynch with my LC vote'. There is some benefit there for him... also, given the powder-faced woman's ability, there would be a risk of making it clear that both the Powder-faced woman and a teammate were on the LC train if sprit got another vote or two and then LC was lynched.

So, I could see him as sprit's teammate. That has potential.

I can't really make head nor tail of why he spent so much time trying to get Epi to give dirt on someone so he could follow a vote.

Now try reading Wilgy as being a member of the other team. What do you see?

I did try that too. I couldn't get a bead on anything specific that points to that team. You? Except if INH is bad (thats a big if), INH is on that team (because of the powder-faced women eliminations), and I could see a possible world in which they were teamies.

We know Nero is around, right? Because Dom is 'nutty'?

Also, I just realised Wilgy was killed by Olaf so he isn't on the first team anyway.

Correct, which is why I asked you to consider him on the other team.

Wilgy being bad on that team makes sense though. He fanned the flames but didn't do anything about it outside of voting me. He didn't vote LC or sprityo2.

I think people ignore the dead, and that's a mistake. We have Mr. Poe and Sunny doing work. I have been reading through the dead.

Completely agree. Can't ignore the dead.

Just now leaving DW, I've got an early flight west tomorrow and not the time or energy to read.

I'm voting for Elohcin. Epignosis is civ (or I'll eat my hat), and this is still the most active I've seen her. Oh, and I want to save Epignosis.

sig wrote: I'll read him over first.

Excellent idea.

Anyone want to propose a reason to lynch Eloh over Epi or Epi over Eloh?

I feel Epi has been more intellectually dishonest and obvious about defending/distancing from Eloh and of course there's the Snow Dog lynch (that I don't entirely blame Epi for cause Snow wasn't helping his own case much) while Eloh has generally contributed less and feels more like attempting to buddy certain players.

My general feeling is that it is more likely that Epi is scum and Eloh is town than vice versa but I could be convinced otherwise.