STAR WARS Mafia [ENDGAME]

#2701

I asked a simple question. Let's try to be simple about this for each other's benefit and everybody elses. Why are others entertaining my case if it's just impossible and silly?

#2702

Golden wrote:I will just say, though, Mac.

I think I was wrong when I said you will feel dumb. It's clear to me, that this is not the way your mind works. You do want to blame ME for it if I get lynched, and feel completely justified in your own case, and not be the person who feels any culpability for the case.

If that is the way it is, then ok. C'est la vie.

@Mac - see, that's my point. Any other possible defence to you is just 'oh yeah, that part would just be you trying to look civ'. Do you not see how that makes your case undefendable?

But, actually, I was referring to some of the more objective things. Like 'why wouldn't BC laugh at everyone to hide his teammate'. You've already claimed thats why I was making lots of people laugh, for cover. If that was the teams plan, wouldn't both people be doing it? You've ignored all my mechanics points. When Zebra came up with another idea for what Crumb's role could be, your response was literally basically that example I gave above.

The first part of this you have resigned to believe that I now have a civilian mentality. Am I to take that you now believe I am civilian because you are resigned yourself to the fact that I am stupid?

You've adequately defended the parts of my case that are defendable enough to make me question them. Left behind are things that may or may not make you bad. Namely the backing off, the bussing and the attack on me. The sheer weight of things that make you look bad are what is keeping me with my scum read. It's not an inability to see your defense. It's a choice to see a lot of scummy looking play as scummy. That's why I always leave myself open to being wrong. I know you can't defend this part, and I know it's not open and shut. But it's significant, more significant than anything else I have seen, and more significant than cases that have been made to lynch other players in this game, whether scum or civilian.

I reacted that way to Zebra's point, but not to Matt's. I tend to disagree with the likelihood of points if I don't believe they are likely. But you left out that I did exactly the opposite on Matt's point just to continue the smear campaign.

#2703

Whether I have said things like confirmed scum or what have you is irrelevant. People say things like "scum confirmed" on half baked cases multiple times in every game. It is also why I have been entirely tentative to agree to this 1 v 1 with you.

Yet you have continuously claimed I have been attacking you with blinkers on. It's not true. I have been attacking you because I think you are bad and I think you keep making yourself look worse when I do it.

#2704

And this isn't a waste of time. We are achieving plenty hashing this out.

#2705

MacDougall wrote:Humour me. Why do those five people entertain my case if it's so silly?

What do you want me to say mac. Want me to insult all of them too?

Well, lets just point some things out.

Sig never said that.

Matt said your case was the better of the two. Well obviously, since I basically hadn't made one. That doesn't make your case good.

Canuck read that I said I'd had a similar role in Roger Rabbit, but clearly didn't take in my rational reason for pointing it out (that epi required the

smily, not just lol). She also pointed, by the way, to a role she had in which she very cleverly and in a fun way managed to out all the baddies. She was civ. I understand why Canuck would have that position as a starting point entirely, given that role Canuck had. But, as I made very clear after that point, your theory relies on some far less fun mechanics. Epi's roles are about maximising fun. I wonder if Canuck will give my points credence when she comes back and understands them, but I know she fastforwards through these things.

Zebra - clearly zebra has an initial reaction of thinking it could have merit, then she looked at it and decided it didn't. A point in favour of thought knocking down your case.

Sorsha - Just focussed on 'why is golden making memes' as a starting point, which was fine but again came before any of the points about why the theory doesn't add up in practice.

And besides that,

They aren't the ones building the case, so they only have to see it on the surface and make a quick response (and on the surface, your case looks good. Hey cool, a theory that a meme and BC laughing means the meme'r is Crumb. I mean, I'd certainly give it enough merit to say it has merit and think about it. It only falls down when you DO put thought into it. The reason I say I do not believe it from you is because by this point you MUST have thought about it.) And any one of them could be scum.

@Mac - well I'm glad you think we are achieving plenty. All I'm achieving is wishing I'd never signed up for this game. I was supposed to go on mafia break. I was trying to take it easy. I pointed this out to you on so many ocassions. Yet, you have forcibly dragged me into this. It's 20 past midnight here - I'm so busy, I didn't get one single word of my sermon written and I don't know when I'm going to do it. You have forced this to dominate my life even though I really did not want it to.

For me, all it's achieved is making me wonder if I did the right thing coming back to play mafia at all. I've never seen anyone tunnel the way you have.

#2706

MacDougall wrote:Whether I have said things like confirmed scum or what have you is irrelevant.

No, it's not irrelevant.

It's very relevant.

It speaks to your own apparent feelings of certainty, despite all your claims to the contrary.

It is a manipulative choice to get others to do what you want them to do.

Just like me saying '100%' about Luke in Dune. Only, in that game, I had really good reason to do it. In this game, you don't have really good reason to do it. I know you don't. I know you didn't buy the LD thing and LD me, because if you had have you wouldn't be pursing me. I know you don't have a role that could find out my affiliation, because if you did you wouldn't me pursuing me. And yet you say over and over that my actions 'confirm' me as scum.

So don't call that irrelevant. If you don't want that to be taken as having no doubt, then don't say it like you have no doubt.

#2707

Being upset by it is unusually melodramatic for a civilian who has a scum right where he wants him. Wouldn't you expect this behaviour of a scum player? Why would it upset you? Shouldn't civilian Golden be slamming the hammer down on me right now? After all I have three votes on me and you only have mine on you. You've got me right where you want me. So why are you now having regrets and being upset. I feel the entire opposite right now. Have you resigned that I am civilian after all Golden? Golden you are tunneling me just as bad as I am tunneling you.

I ain't controlling your life. If you can't stop playing the game that's not my fault. Saying I have forced you to play is laughable. I feel sorry for you if it's true, but it's not my fault. That's not fair.

All five of them either said I was town, said my case is fine, or said that they would vote you over me if forced. That means they must all be entertaining my case.

Your point about them only reading it on the surface is fine and dandy like sugar candy. Good call. They may just not have looked into it deep enough to realise I am stupid or bad. That is indeed possible.

I also don't think Zebra outright ever said she believed me and I never said she believed me. I quoted a post where she said that she has no problem with my analysis and I can't see where she's said that she changed her mind and that she agrees with you that it's all bullplop.

Linki: Golden if every player who ever used hyperbole when scum hunting was scum this game would be easy.

#2708

Zebra is going to come in here and go off her head.

#2709

You still have more posts than me by the way and most of the recent ones are tunneling me so don't be a hypocrite. You're making a habit of it.

#2710

Oh for fucks sake, I don't believe it. I should believe it, but I don't believe it.

You are the most infuriating person to ever play mafia with.

You desperately want me to consider that I could be wrong, but when I do anything which is consistent with that, it's proof that I'm scum?

Nothing is ever your fault, Mac. You are entirely unresponsible. If I get lynched today, bad work on all those people who thought the case was good, but it certainly isn't Mac's fault. If the case was bad, they shouldn't have voted me.

Of course, if I didn't respond to you, it would be that I'd run away in the middle of the convo and just another point in your case that I'm scum. Because for you, everything I do is scum. You've decided you are right, and there is literally no action that I could possibly take that you wouldn't fit into your narrative for how I'm bad.

Truth be told, I don't actually give a shit if you are civ or bad. I think you are Hutt, and I think people would be very wise to lynch you. But ultimately, I'm asking for a 1 v 1 because I just think everyone in the thread deserves this not to continue to derail everything.

And I hope everyone can see the truth of this statement - it doesn't matter what I do, Mac will see it as bad.

#2711

MacDougall wrote:You still have more posts than me by the way and most of the recent ones are tunneling me so don't be a hypocrite. You're making a habit of it.

I don't give a shit if I'm a hypocrite. People call me one all the time.

The reason you say I'm bad is your case that you've built. The reason I say you are bad is because I can't see the civ thought process that gets you to the point where you are so sure of yourself.

Our thought processes for being where we are is entirely different. I don't see tunneling as inherently scum behaviour. I look for the motive behind it. In your case, I see no civ-based thinking that gets you where you are.

But it's very easy to draw two actions that look the same together and call it hypocritical. Very easy.

I just really don't care.

#2712

Golden

Yah. You're orange, not red. I've been questioning my read on you for quite a long time during this.

A small part of why I've been attacking you so much is because I know it's the only way I can maneuver you around into changing your read on me from confirmed scum to something slightly less than confirmed scum. I had to prove to you that I believed what I was doing and give you insight into my mind and get you out of that headspace you were in. Telling you was never going to cut it. It's also another reason why I'm happy we've done this.

I think you've done that. And that is another part of my case on you rubbed out if I am reading that right.

You have to understand that there was a moment when I was sure that you were bad. Adamant. It's not easy for me to convince myself that I am wrong when I was adamant, but from the bottom of my heart it is actually one of my best traits as a person. When I am wrong I have no qualms admitting it.

Thus, my read on you genuinely is now only based on the way you behaved around him on day 1 and you being quick to jump on Brian when he made that post against bubbles. And that is an orange case at best.

#2713

If that makes me look bad so be it.

#2714

Golden wrote:
MacDougall wrote:You still have more posts than me by the way and most of the recent ones are tunneling me so don't be a hypocrite. You're making a habit of it.
The reason I say you are bad is because I can't see the civ thought process that gets you to the point where you are so sure of yourself.

See I felt this exact same way about you. But you have made some posts that have shown that you actually aren't so sure of yourself. And that's what I was hoping for, to see Civilian Golden in there. Because I think scum Golden would have just kept at it... You were keeping at it, I was keeping at it. It was a perpetual rhythm. But as I said I am glad we did it because we did finally break it. It was a mind fuck but we have broken it.

#2715

Lol, Mac, you really don't know civ golden and scum golden. You have a lot to learn.

#2716

Golden wrote:Lol, Mac, you really don't know civ golden and scum golden. You have a lot to learn.

OMG scumslip again! I just changed told you I was wavering and now you are saying I was wrong I'm just kidding stop having a panic attack.

#2717

Sorry for not being around. Been busy digging into the whole PhD application scene. Hopefully I'll be around a bit today!

#2718

I don't know where I claimed to know civ or scum Golden. I just assumed, much like I said to Epi in tree mafia that you were "faceless Mafia veteran" and go from there. It's really all I can do to try to understand your meta somehow. Otherwise when I call things out on face value and people just say "nah that's not his meta" or worse still you say it's not your meta I have to just believe it. I can't do that, I wouldn't be effective at scum hunting if I did, so I assume you are "faceless Mafia veteran" (which is to say that I tend to assume that people would do what I or JJJ or other RYM mafia vets would do), which may not be right, but it's better than nothing while I get to know you. He tried to say the same thing that I was making assumptions of his play like I knew him, but that's not what I'm doing. I'm just assuming you both are "faceless Mafia veteran".

Linki: Yeah hopefully. Bye. See you in a few days. Scum.

#2719

#2720

Golden wrote:

What's up man? I'm just explaining where I make my assumptions of intention. Not attacking you.

#2721

Golden when you come back from the long walk around the neighbourhood to contemplate what you're doing with your life can you please have a look at Dom. His vote on me was a little bit askew and he pretty much let you do all the dirty work to get his vote on a civ right there.

Is anyone else bad in your note book there?

Lots of lurkers here... And I think after we just trashed a whole 36 hours of the day we kind of owe it to people to find the bad guys but they are lurking I fear.

I'm going to play the rest of the day as though you are civ in my mind because I can't change my vote anyway so why the fuck not. I've tunneled you more than enough. I'll see if I can re-calibrate to understanding what you're doing... if you ping me I'll just bite my tongue until tomorrow.

Unless I get lynched, which after this tremendous backflip I probably will, but I think it's worth reaching the point I did before I get lynched so that upon my flip my actual feelings on the matter are left behind rather than just maintaining the rage for self preservation and getting lynched anyway.

Just note you are still a scum read, but I am doing my best to be discerning.

#2722

@Mac - I can't put into words what I want to.

I've been trying, but I should probably just go to bed.

I don't trust you in this game mac. I think you are bad. But I didn't ask for 1 v 1 because I think you are bad. I asked for 1 v 1 because you showed no respect for the fact that I had specifically explained that I was trying to take it easy, and that I had issues with stress-related depression and rl busyness at the moment. You just ignored it all or treated it as a sign I am bad. If your laser-beam focus on me was going to continue, I needed it over one way or the other, because all of that stuff is true. But in all of that, I was also adding an awful lot of genuine game content to my defences/statements. I've been trying to conk some stuff into your brain for days, I've been trying to get you to think critically about the stuff I'm posting, and I'm sorry for pissing you off but now that you are out of tunnel zone, it's time you iso me again and just try to figure me out from an imaginary world in which you KNOW I'm not scum.

#2723

@Mac - Dom's vote is fine. He is sticking up for a friend.

#2724

MacDougall wrote:Golden when you come back from the long walk around the neighbourhood to contemplate what you're doing with your life can you please have a look at Dom. His vote on me was a little bit askew and he pretty much let you do all the dirty work to get his vote on a civ right there.

Is anyone else bad in your note book there?

Lots of lurkers here... And I think after we just trashed a whole 36 hours of the day we kind of owe it to people to find the bad guys but they are lurking I fear.

I'm going to play the rest of the day as though you are civ in my mind because I can't change my vote anyway so why the fuck not. I've tunneled you more than enough. I'll see if I can re-calibrate to understanding what you're doing... if you ping me I'll just bite my tongue until tomorrow.

Unless I get lynched, which after this tremendous backflip I probably will, but I think it's worth reaching the point I did before I get lynched so that upon my flip my actual feelings on the matter are left behind rather than just maintaining the rage for self preservation and getting lynched anyway.

Just note you are still a scum read, but I am doing my best to be discerning.

My 'legacy post' has a lot of content in it as far as my reads go. Nothing in there needs to be revisited.

#2725

Golden wrote:@Mac - I can't put into words what I want to.

I've been trying, but I should probably just go to bed.

I don't trust you in this game mac. I think you are bad. But I didn't ask for 1 v 1 because I think you are bad. I asked for 1 v 1 because you showed no respect for the fact that I had specifically explained that I was trying to take it easy, and that I had issues with stress-related depression and rl busyness at the moment. You just ignored it all or treated it as a sign I am bad. If your laser-beam focus on me was going to continue, I needed it over one way or the other, because all of that stuff is true. But in all of that, I was also adding an awful lot of genuine game content to my defences/statements. I've been trying to conk some stuff into your brain for days, I've been trying to get you to think critically about the stuff I'm posting, and I'm sorry for pissing you off but now that you are out of tunnel zone, it's time you iso me again and just try to figure me out from an imaginary world in which you KNOW I'm not scum.

I dunno man it's just not in my genetic make up to let a dude who is playing this game who I think is bad use outside game stuff to get me to stop attacking them. Maybe you should have just subbed out if it was that bad. I'm sorry if I made it worse.

#2726

Golden wrote:@Mac - Dom's vote is fine. He is sticking up for a friend.

PS - further proof that glorfindel doesn't know where the cliques are

@mac - no, it isn't 'that bad'... its just giving you insight so that you get better reads on me in the future.

#2727

Since a large part of your read, you have to admit, is that you aren't seeing 'supatown golden' - despite the fact I said I wasn't going to go that hard all the time in this game, and despite the fact I expressly pointed out that this is not consistent with my scum meta.

#2728

Golden wrote:Since a large part of your read, you have to admit, is that you aren't seeing 'supatown golden' - despite the fact I said I wasn't going to go that hard all the time in this game, and despite the fact I expressly pointed out that this is not consistent with my scum meta.

Righteo. Give me some names to analyse please.

#2729

Oh, Mac, last thing before I go to bed. A little Han Solo humour for you. I hope it makes you lol.

http://i.imgur.com/d4nQ5qT.jpg

Next time I'm making a lot of jokes, you'll know it's just me. I don't need the role of court jester to try my best to be one. I'll gladly play a full game of mafia with tongue in cheek.

#2730

MacDougall wrote:
Golden wrote:Since a large part of your read, you have to admit, is that you aren't seeing 'supatown golden' - despite the fact I said I wasn't going to go that hard all the time in this game, and despite the fact I expressly pointed out that this is not consistent with my scum meta.
Righteo. Give me some names to analyse please.

Golden.

No, seriously. Before anything else, I'd like you to have a second go at analysing me. Putting your pre-conceived notions away.

After that...

Sorsha - I normally get an early civ read on her, but this time I've got nothing.
Elo - see if you can see why I put her at firm civ read. I'd have her above canuck at this point.
Glorfindel - is our case really all tone or is there substance to a 'glorfindel is bad' case? I feel glorf is bad, but I also feel like it's because of his feeling new and alone.
Sig - it bothers me that sig really isn't doing anything that looks suspicious at all, lol. This is unusual.

#2731

I screwed up the Han solo humour

#2732

No that Han Solo humour was definitely funny.

#2733

Dude your ISO is too big and my feelings are too ingrained. I can only play around you at this point. All I can do is analyse the players you've read.

#2734

First thing that weirds me out is that Wilgy has half as many posts here as he did in tree mafia. He flipped civ in tree mafia so he was obviously putting the genuine effort in over there. Why is he struggling to contribute here?

#2735

sig wrote:
Enrique wrote:wow sig actually voted for me. is he usually this damn two faced? I must've missed Matt's vote as well. I am terrible at keeping up.
How am I being two faced? I thought about it some more read through your post and came to the conclusion you seem scummy, certainly more scummy them Matt, who from my understanding is getting votes from fly by voter or based around the Death Star thing.
You lower yourself to insults and you attempt to paint me bad by voting for you, I gave reasoning for my vote and stand by them.
This reaction much like your reaction when I mentioned the hutts and said you were interesting seems odd and scummy.

This interaction between sig and Enrique is a little unusual. Sig soft cased Enrique very early in the game about his opinion of Tattooine favouring the independents and pointed out that it would favour the Hutts. He seemed to have an opinion that Enrique was specifically a Hutt back when Enrique was just being generally scum read not alignment specific and then Enrique called him two faced which infers that he felt Sig was at least friendly with him when I can't see evidence of that at all.

#2736

I'm glad that you two have realized (to an extent) that you're scum-reading each other primarily for being mad at each other.

Golden wrote:@Mac - Dom's vote is fine. He is sticking up for a friend.

Really?

MacDougall wrote:
sig wrote:
Enrique wrote:wow sig actually voted for me. is he usually this damn two faced? I must've missed Matt's vote as well. I am terrible at keeping up.
How am I being two faced? I thought about it some more read through your post and came to the conclusion you seem scummy, certainly more scummy them Matt, who from my understanding is getting votes from fly by voter or based around the Death Star thing.
You lower yourself to insults and you attempt to paint me bad by voting for you, I gave reasoning for my vote and stand by them.
This reaction much like your reaction when I mentioned the hutts and said you were interesting seems odd and scummy.
This interaction between sig and Enrique is a little unusual. Sig soft cased Enrique very early in the game about his opinion of Tattooine favouring the independents and pointed out that it would favour the Hutts. He seemed to have an opinion that Enrique was specifically a Hutt back when Enrique was just being generally scum read not alignment specific and then Enrique called him two faced which infers that he felt Sig was at least friendly with him when I can't see evidence of that at all.

Nice catch.

#2737

Sig's only post on day 3 was a vote for Glorfindel, when he hadn't really mentioned Glorfindel until then and Enrique had been his baby case. Glorfindel was never close to being lynched and neither was Enrique. That was the day Brian got lynched though, who sig had been null reading.

Sig was on the Enrique bandwagon on day 4 though but it was late enough for him to easily just be voting a goner teammate.

He also calls for us not to analyse Enrique's interactions with other players. I still think he knew their names though? What is the prevailing wisdom on that?

I really do think Enrique was bussed though. Had to be. He ended up with 12 votes on him and almost everybody threw shade at him. He was railroaded. The only question is by whom. Sig would be a good chance at that.

Sig does raise some good points where sorsha defended Enrique in his biggest post. http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 42#p204442

I think it's a stretch to call sig Hutt. But his analysis outside of his read of Enrique and Enrique related material has been less thorough. With less Hutts to hunt he might have run out of things to say?

#2738

Bullzeye has given us nothing. It's interesting that Floyd would pull out of this game yet then go play tree mafia. Perhaps he was sick of being Mafia? Bullzeye might just be on a hiding to nothing but if he's going to continue to not contribute we should lynch him.

#2739

There's just nothing to read in this game outside of Zebra, me and Golden... It's shit house. We might as well start policy lynching low posters.

#2740

Didn't think I'd have time this morning, but I do. Seems I have more pages to catch up on this time... so I'm going to relatively quickly catch up and then post my thoughts thereafter.

#2741

Thank heavens.

#2742

Damn, 14 pages??! Looking forward to some juicy content.

#2743

Hi Bubbles what are your thoughts?

#2744

At what page do Golden and Mac stop arguing? I'm town reading them both, let's move on.

#2745

MovingPictures07 wrote:At what page do Golden and Mac stop arguing? I'm town reading them both, let's move on.

That happens at this current page.

#2746

a2thezebra wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:At what page do Golden and Mac stop arguing? I'm town reading them both, let's move on.
That happens at this current page.

Please don't tell me 14 pages is filled with this.

#2747

MovingPictures07 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:At what page do Golden and Mac stop arguing? I'm town reading them both, let's move on.
That happens at this current page.
Please don't tell me 14 pages is filled with this.

Or at least say nothing else at all happens on those 14 pages so I can skip them too.

#2748

Bullzeye wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:At what page do Golden and Mac stop arguing? I'm town reading them both, let's move on.
That happens at this current page.
Please don't tell me 14 pages is filled with this.
Or at least say nothing else at all happens on those 14 pages so I can skip them too.

I'll be sure to quote relevant posts that I think are worth discussing along the way.

#2749

MovingPictures07 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:At what page do Golden and Mac stop arguing? I'm town reading them both, let's move on.
That happens at this current page.
Please don't tell me 14 pages is filled with this.

It's 14 pages filled with this.

#2750

I never can keep to the promise of posting after I catch up, can I?

thellama73 wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
thellama73 wrote:All right, Blooper it is. Sorry, Blooper.
Can you point to specific posts where you feel Blooper has exhibited mafia behavior?
Probably.

...and...? Will you?

Who Dies Next?