The Syndicate

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:45 pm
Lynching someone so you can get information is a cop out. Anybody can claim he or she voted someone because the lynch would provide information. It removes any responsibility from the voter for casting the vote.

The objective isn't to use lynches to guide future lynches- that is going to happen regardless. The objective is to use lynches to eliminate people who you believe hold roles you need eliminated to emerge victorious.

The point of lynches is 1. to find baddies, and 2. put the community in a better informational position for future lynches. Our position right now is one where anyone can technically be mafia as much as anyone else and it is hell.

A Dom lynch would have given us 0 insight on who else could be bad regardless of how he flipped. A Mesk lynch would have given us possible links. Something to work with.

It's not the best but it's better than lynching someone you don't suspect

another example, an LC townie flip would mean Epi is scum

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:58 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:45 pm
Lynching someone so you can get information is a cop out. Anybody can claim he or she voted someone because the lynch would provide information. It removes any responsibility from the voter for casting the vote.

The objective isn't to use lynches to guide future lynches- that is going to happen regardless. The objective is to use lynches to eliminate people who you believe hold roles you need eliminated to emerge victorious.

The point of lynches is 1. to find baddies, and 2. put the community in a better informational position for future lynches. Our position right now is one where anyone can technically be mafia as much as anyone else and it is hell.

A Dom lynch would have given us 0 insight on who else could be bad regardless of how he flipped. A Mesk lynch would have given us possible links. Something to work with.

It's not the best but it's better than lynching someone you don't suspect

I don't agree with any of that. A lynch doesn't give you any more information than the alignment and role of the victim.

What elucidating jewels of information did the Mesk lynch drop into your lap?

Dunya ISO point by point part 2

malakim2099 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:52 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:56 pm Sake for me Bob and Mal

Well, JoH is scum because he's posting.

Mal is scum because he is always scum

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:58 pm anyone can technically be mafia as much as anyone else

That's not true, though. Some people are slightly more likely to be mafia than others. The point is to determine who are those.

Also I disagree a Dom lynch would have given zero insights. The mere fact there were people supporting and opposing it provides insights.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:02 pmI don't agree with any of that. A lynch doesn't give you any more information than the alignment and role of the victim.

Wait what are you even talking about? How do you even play mafia like that? Do you just vote for whoever and then regardless of how they flip you move on and always ignore the past lynch results because they have nothing to do with anything and the information gained from them is all self contained and can't be used to view things in new contexts?

What elucidating jewels of information did the Mesk lynch drop into your lap?

As explained, Mesks' flip would have been more informative if bad. She flipped civ so less informative.

I don't think her lynch was a waste though. I think some fuckery occurred near the end of the phase involving Jay. I also think Dunyas reaction to the lynch is worth dissecting.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:09 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:58 pm anyone can technically be mafia as much as anyone else

That's not true, though. Some people are slightly more likely to be mafia than others. The point is to determine who are those.

that's basically exactly what I said.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:17 pm

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:09 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:58 pm anyone can technically be mafia as much as anyone else

That's not true, though. Some people are slightly more likely to be mafia than others. The point is to determine who are those.

that's basically exactly what I said.

Does not compute.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:05 pm

malakim2099 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:52 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:56 pm Sake for me Bob and Mal

Well, JoH is scum because he's posting.

Mal is scum because he is always scum

Especially when I'm town.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:18 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:17 pm

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:09 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:58 pm anyone can technically be mafia as much as anyone else

That's not true, though. Some people are slightly more likely to be mafia than others. The point is to determine who are those.

that's basically exactly what I said.

Does not compute.

we've got a bunch of possible links get and relationships and data that's ultimately meaningless until we successfully lynch a small mountain. That's what I was explaining in the part of the post you cut out.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:16 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:02 pmI don't agree with any of that. A lynch doesn't give you any more information than the alignment and role of the victim.

Wait what are you even talking about? How do you even play mafia like that? Do you just vote for whoever and then regardless of how they flip you move on and always ignore the past lynch results because they have nothing to do with anything and the information gained from them is all self contained and can't be used to view things in new contexts?

What information other than an alignment and role do you get from a lynch?

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:02 pm

What elucidating jewels of information did the Mesk lynch drop into your lap?

As explained, Mesks' flip would have been more informative if bad. She flipped civ so less informative.

I don't think her lynch was a waste though. I think some fuckery occurred near the end of the phase involving Jay. I also think Dunyas reaction to the lynch is worth dissecting.

The first bit is just repeating that the Mesk lynch yielded information. It doesn't answer the question, "What information?"

The second bit isn't information either. It's what you think.

Epiiiiignoooooosiiiiiiiis. I'm sick and I'm also tired.

Lynching mafia gives us context to help lynch more mafia.

Alignment and role flips are information that help us piece together the puzzle that is the game that we're playing.

I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:30 pm Epiiiiignoooooosiiiiiiiis. I'm sick and I'm also tired.

Lynching mafia gives us context to help lynch more mafia.

Alignment and role flips are information that help us piece together the puzzle that is the game that we're playing.

I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

You're not explaining anything to me. What information did the Mesk lynch provide that the Dom lynch could not have?

Several people have given their opinions on Mesk no one has mentioned Dom like at all other than to say he hasn't said anything.

dunya wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:00 pm another example, an LC townie flip would mean Epi is scum

Damn, then let's skip the middleman and get straight to an Epi lynch!

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:35 pm Several people have given their opinions on Mesk no one has mentioned Dom like at all other than to say he hasn't said anything.

Ok.

I thought Dom was probably trying to buddy me by responding to my post. His second post makes me think he's likely a baddie trying to hide behind "not putting in the effort to read or post."

Does that work for you?

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:42 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:35 pm Several people have given their opinions on Mesk no one has mentioned Dom like at all other than to say he hasn't said anything.

Ok.

I thought Dom was probably trying to buddy me by responding to my post. His second post makes me think he's likely a baddie trying to hide behind "not putting in the effort to read or post."

Does that work for you?

LC. Calling out buddying at the drop of a hat.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:35 pm Several people have given their opinions on Mesk no one has mentioned Dom like at all other than to say he hasn't said anything.

None of that is information either.

If Dom is bad, then people blew it lynching Mesk over him, because that cost a civilian, and the mindset of "Well gee, nobody is really talking about Dom so let's not lynch him" allows his role to continue to get by without contributing, and people who fail to vote mafia can shrug their shoulders and invoke the "This lynch would give better info" excuse.

If you lynch somebody, it damn well better be because you think that person is bad, not because you need the more "informative" lynch. If you aren't lynching people you think are bad, I'm sure there's a simple explanation for that.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:43 pm

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:42 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:35 pm Several people have given their opinions on Mesk no one has mentioned Dom like at all other than to say he hasn't said anything.

Ok.

I thought Dom was probably trying to buddy me by responding to my post. His second post makes me think he's likely a baddie trying to hide behind "not putting in the effort to read or post."

Does that work for you?

LC. Calling out buddying at the drop of a hat.

I like your hat too, buddy!

Hey epig what the fuck are you talking about. I respect your whole soapbox thing. Like it's cool and all, but your speech doesn't apply to the scenario we were facing at the eod2

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:43 pm If you lynch somebody, it damn well better be because you think that person is bad, not because you need the more "informative" lynch. If you aren't lynching people you think are bad, I'm sure there's a simple explanation for that.

I love this post.

You had a vote on Dom for a bit. Did you think he was bad while you did have a vote on Dom?

The options were lynch Jack or lynch Dom, I decided a Dom lynch was better.

votes shifted

the options were then Dom or Mesk, Mesk seemed like a more ideal choice to me.

the votes shifted again.

It was now Mesk or Jay, I didn't feel confident enough in the case against Jay, which had basically just become relevant at that moment, so I kept my vote on Mesk.

dunya wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:49 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:43 pm If you lynch somebody, it damn well better be because you think that person is bad, not because you need the more "informative" lynch. If you aren't lynching people you think are bad, I'm sure there's a simple explanation for that.

I love this post.

You had a vote on Dom for a bit. Did you think he was bad while you did have a vote on Dom?

Me or Epig?

I already explained my feelings about Dom lynch while the lynch was happening. I said it was fine but that we could do better. To me, Mesk was a better lynch option.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:59 pm

dunya wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:49 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:43 pm If you lynch somebody, it damn well better be because you think that person is bad, not because you need the more "informative" lynch. If you aren't lynching people you think are bad, I'm sure there's a simple explanation for that.

I love this post.

You had a vote on Dom for a bit. Did you think he was bad while you did have a vote on Dom?

Me or Epig?

I already explained my feelings about Dom lynch while the lynch was happening. I said it was fine but that we could do better. To me, Mesk was a better lynch option.

No, you explained your stance. This was for Epi.

[mention]Jackofhearts2005[/mention] I really love your detailed post iso of me. I don't think anyone has ever ISOd me before? I feel important and amazing.

Wait.... Did Epi vote for Dom

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:45 pm I'm voting Dom.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:55 pm How about Dom? He's a great lynch, am I right?

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:23 am I see Kylemii has joined the Dom train.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:08 am Unless someone persuades me elsewhere, my vote is staying on Dom. I think speedchuck is cool (even if he's disappointing my wife), Long Con is an asshole toward me (which probably means he's good), and Jack is voting in self-preservation.

I mean, my read on Epi was town before. I just hate inconsistencies and anything hypocritical that stands out I feel should be questioned.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:40 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:39 am

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:37 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:33 am

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:31 am To what degree do you believe in your case?
why is mesk a better lynch than elohcin and dom?

I believe in my Elohcin case enough to want to lynch her.

Mesk is not a better lynch than Elohcin. Mesk is a better lynch than Dom because the low-poster motivation suits both of them, while only the former's content features tangible reasons for suspicion.

Bullshit. The latter has no content to compare.

That's the point. -1 is less than 0.

can you see no town conviction behind mesk's posts?

Why if you hated voting for her and seemed to see some towniness in Mesk, did you vote for her? I mean, I get the general feel of why but why her over Dom in your case? Please and thank you.

dunya wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:09 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:40 am can you see no town conviction behind mesk's posts?

Why if you hated voting for her and seemed to see some towniness in Mesk, did you vote for her? I mean, I get the general feel of why but why her over Dom in your case? Please and thank you.

don't you think if you had voted for dom, someone may have switched over?

dunya wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:10 pm

dunya wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:09 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:40 am can you see no town conviction behind mesk's posts?

Why if you hated voting for her and seemed to see some towniness in Mesk, did you vote for her? I mean, I get the general feel of why but why her over Dom in your case? Please and thank you.

don't you think if you had voted for dom, someone may have switched over?

I understand you did it to avoid a tie, because you hate ties. I can respect that. But no matter how hard someone pushes me, or how hard I hate ties, I won't vote for someone I have any inclination to believe is town. so I guess this is where my confusion stems from.

townie reads:
dunya
long con
epi
ddl
sloonei
nutella
daisy
kyle
sig

unsure of reads:
Quin (pouncing around a lot. I like his inquisitive approach, I like when he puts data together and reaches a possible conclusion, but I'm not sure how good he is anymore. still closer to town than scum for me.)
speedchuck (I like him on paper. This worries me after the pirates game. Have to look into him more tbh)
colonialbob (I have more townie vibes as a whole, but must iso him to get a lear indication)
eloh (feel she is very wishy washy and not generally open with her feelings. feel she is holding things back, in a bad way)
jack (I want to cool off him for a day, see how I feel later. I still hated a lot of his counterarguments yesterday, but he fought hard eod and I can respect that as a townie)
drwilgy (needs looking into. Seems different than the games I played with him in seinfeld and pirates. leaning anti-town with gut read actually, but need to iso and see where my head is at)

leaning scum:
jay (sorry baby ily <3)
dom/malakim or insertnamehere (out of three inactives, 1 is definitely scum team aligned, leaning towards malakim since he was replaced before INH)

Jack, your opinion of speedchuck would be one of the most relevant now. You were scumbuddies in Pirates. How is his general presence in this game pinging you?

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:42 am What are you guys doing. The poll just changed like 16 times it was a potential 4 way tie at one point

Near the end Jay had 5 votes but now Mesk is in the lead again, I think?

I'm really sad I missed this. It would be very interesting. Where was the 4-way tie between?

Jay, Jack, Mesk and Dom?

dunya wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:20 pmdom/malakim or insertnamehere (out of three inactives, 1 is definitely scum team aligned, leaning towards malakim since he was replaced before INH)

3 inactives?

In case I am NKed tonight:
Jay
Quin
Dom/malakim

should be the next three lynches. Not sure who the fourth is. I'd maybe consider Kyle again tbh... Or INH or sig. But I am very confident that the three I listed are bad.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:28 pm

dunya wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:20 pmdom/malakim or insertnamehere (out of three inactives, 1 is definitely scum team aligned, leaning towards malakim since he was replaced before INH)

3 inactives?

Mesk was the third.

I don't mean to imply like info-level confident for the record. I just know it in my soul.

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:30 pm I don't mean to imply like info-level confident for the record. I just know it in my soul.

soul reads are the most important reads. I feel you on them.

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:29 pm In case I am NKed tonight:
Jay
Quin
Dom/malakim

should be the next three lynches. Not sure who the fourth is. I'd maybe consider Kyle again tbh... Or INH or sig. But I am very confident that the three I listed are bad.

Well, that DEFINITELY encourages me to be active.

Sheesh, can I digest the War and Peace-sized game to date before getting strung up as a replacement?

dunya wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:27 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:42 am What are you guys doing. The poll just changed like 16 times it was a potential 4 way tie at one point

Near the end Jay had 5 votes but now Mesk is in the lead again, I think?

I'm really sad I missed this. It would be very interesting. Where was the 4-way tie between?

Jay, Jack, Mesk and Dom?

I believe so. I was refreshing a lot to keep up with the current posts so I didn't see but I think it was probably those 4. Jack (i think?) had 1 fewer votes than the others but I counted him as part of the "tie" since role shenanigans allow for a disparity of + or - up to 3 votes.

I'm not confident that it was Jack

dunya wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:09 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:40 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:39 am

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:37 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:33 am

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:31 am To what degree do you believe in your case?
why is mesk a better lynch than elohcin and dom?

I believe in my Elohcin case enough to want to lynch her.

Mesk is not a better lynch than Elohcin. Mesk is a better lynch than Dom because the low-poster motivation suits both of them, while only the former's content features tangible reasons for suspicion.

Bullshit. The latter has no content to compare.

That's the point. -1 is less than 0.

can you see no town conviction behind mesk's posts?

Why if you hated voting for her and seemed to see some towniness in Mesk, did you vote for her? I mean, I get the general feel of why but why her over Dom in your case? Please and thank you.

my vote for mesk was purely a means to prevent vote shenanigans. I don't like ties and I didn't want any unforeseen last second changes to the lynch result. All the votes were piling on Mesk so I padded her lead. It was not a lynch that I wanted, but at this stage in the game I wanted a clean lynch more than anything. It probably wasn't the best strategic move.

I'm still behind on the thread and not getting caught up at the moment. I'll have a lot of free time later this evening and hopefully then I can start making confident reads.

For the record, far too early for me (got to page 11) to get any sort of good reads yet, BUT when you talk about lynching a player spot immediately after they've been replaced? That seems fairly scummy to me. Especially with the meta-logic of "well, they were replaced so they must be mafia" which is, frankly, crap logic.

Nutella, aside from the fact that Dom was completely inert, why am I bad?
Dunya, likewise.

If I'm locked into dying via lynch in the next couple days (which definitely helps the mafia narrow down who they don't have to bother NKing)... I'd like to know why at least. Consider it a professional courtesy.

(Normally I'd just defend myself, but I'm curious what their reasoning is in lynching someone who is going to actually be active in the game going forward?)

malakim2099 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:42 pm For the record, far too early for me (got to page 11) to get any sort of good reads yet, BUT when you talk about lynching a player spot immediately after they've been replaced? That seems fairly scummy to me. Especially with the meta-logic of "well, they were replaced so they must be mafia" which is, frankly, crap logic.

Nutella, aside from the fact that Dom was completely inert, why am I bad?
Dunya, likewise.

If I'm locked into dying via lynch in the next couple days (which definitely helps the mafia narrow down who they don't have to bother NKing)... I'd like to know why at least. Consider it a professional courtesy.

(Normally I'd just defend myself, but I'm curious what their reasoning is in lynching someone who is going to actually be active in the game going forward?)

I have no reason to suspect you other than basic statistics and probability at this point in time. Also that fucking SF game

I won't be scrambling to lynch you any time soon. Please, get comfortable and show us your pearly white peak.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:56 pm Sake for me Bob and Mal

Thanks but I generally prefer gin.

malakim2099 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:42 pm For the record, far too early for me (got to page 11) to get any sort of good reads yet, BUT when you talk about lynching a player spot immediately after they've been replaced? That seems fairly scummy to me. Especially with the meta-logic of "well, they were replaced so they must be mafia" which is, frankly, crap logic.

I'd also like to point out I replaced in before you, and I'm town. There were three other inactives, Mesk, you, and insertnamehere (who became inactive after replacing another inactive). Is it likely all 4 inactives were town and not even 1 was mafia? Possible, but I wouldn't call it likely.

I'm town, Mesk flipped town, so the logic that you COULD be scum isn't fool proof, but it isn't coming straight out of my ass either, I reckon. Read on, show us what you got. I've been in your shoes and it wasn't a fun process--especially when the person I replaced was a lynch-candidate the day before I replaced.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:16 pm @Quin can you point out the time where you voted for Mesk (as in, close to what post of yours it happened?

At the same time as Epi voted for Dom. I was the first on her.