The Syndicate

S~V~S wrote:When the arguments in favor of lynching a specific person include picayune semantics like the use of but or because; or if they turn around fine points such as , did a person actually say something or was he just appearing to actually say something, sorry buckaroos, but I am not going there.

Unless Golden started out on someones short list, or is a recruiter himself, I don't see him applying for baddie positions in the various contests that the host is likely to have, based on prior experience with their games. I also think that, based on odds, he is as unlikley to have started out as a baddie recruiter as anyone else, 2 people out of 30ish? I know that if i was a baddie recruiter, I would not put Golden on an initial 3 person list because he has often said he strongly prefers being a civ, and I would not recruit someone who would be unhappy to be recruited, someone who would have preferred to be on another team. I know not everyone thinks like me, but I will assume that some do. So I think that the odds of Golden finishing the game as a civ or a neutral are somewhat higher than for most people. There are a lot of "ifs" in what I just said, and any of then could be wrong. The weakest link, imo, is the supposition that baddies would be less likley to recruit him. Perhaps if they were not as familiar with him as I am, or if they did not care about his preferences.

But for me, it is enough, and based on this I do not want to vote for Golden at this time.

S~V~S wrote:Who the fuck would kill Typhoony on Night One of his first game back in years?

Lame

And then Epi as well. Golden being ballsy or Golden being set up?

S~V~S wrote:You unilaterally decided that you & he could not coexist, although no one else felt that way, and basically then bragged that YOU had solicited his death when he was NKed.

I have never seen this Golden. I played the very first game you played, and I was one of the people who watched, and understood, yur King Arthur sacrifice. But i have NO idea who is playing this game. None.

S~V~S wrote:

DharmaHelper wrote:VOTE REGISTERED FOR GOLDEN I'm not sure I want to wait for him to consider it impossible for myself and he to be on the same team :P

Yeah, this. I find the whole nonchalance about the whole thing to be almost chilling, tbh. Everything else I have seen seems like a little ping next to it.

VOTING FOR GOLDEN

MovingPictures07 wrote: Golden, I can 100% relate with you this game. This game has taken a ridiculous emotional toll on me as well, especially since this past weekend I had perhaps my biggest mental and emotional breakdown I've had in my entire PhD program tenure. Thankfully, today I've felt much more like my normal self.

I do NOT understand all of the Golden bashing and will do anything to keep him alive in this game, because I firmly believe Golden is a neutral and has been genuine with all of his thoughts this game.

I also see absolutely nothing wrong with his move against Epi, especially as someone who has been on the receiving end of his antics before. S~V~S and others, seriously try to put yourself in Golden's shoes, and then rethink his actions with an open mind. I don't see it as uncharacteristic at all. I NKed Epi in N1 of Economics, regardless of whether he was mafia, because I wanted him gone like Golden wanted Epi gone here. I can absolutely relate to Golden's feelings as he's expressed them.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:I can definitely see how you (or anyone) would view Golden as a threat at this point. He basically stopped short of calling the Epignosis kill "a demonstration".

Well, I suppose you're right; I perhaps am not being understanding enough of the opposite perspective myself, but I'll still be very disappointed if Golden gets lynched and flips neutral (or, worse, civilian-aligned, but I would doubt that).

MovingPictures07 wrote: I agree that it's bet at this stage for Golden to drop the Epi issue completely, but it doesn't help that others (rey and S~V~S and Boomslang, etc.) have been just as insistent on bringing it up over and over as well as Golden has.

Make fun of me as his cheerleader all you want (actually, please do, since it's hilarious), but I have been only defending Golden with the fervor that I've had because I feel accusations against him have been driven by mere fear mongering ("he did that to Epi? What if he does it to me?!?!?!!?"), which is a silly sentiment in my opinion given that the vast majority of players in this game still don't know what side they're going to end up on.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
As to what Golden has playing, I'd say he's been playing a 100% survival-aligned neutral game. He's been under such heat for most of his tenure in this game that honestly I think he's been doing whatever he can to ensure that he doesn't die immediately. I don't think that's necessarily unreasonable at this stage, mainly because I've been reading all of his thoughts as genuine, because he's been able to articulate himself in a manner that I personally find believable. Therefore, I also believe that Golden is not actively seeking recruitment, and that he'd prefer to be a civilian. Of course, if this game will proceed how the prior games did, I could very well be advocating for his lynch, since it's entirely possible Golden and I will end up with opposing interests. I do not currently think we have opposing interests. I honestly wouldn't care about Golden as much as any other neutral if I felt players weren't exposing him to a ridiculously unbalanced amount of heat when compared to other players who should be examined as well.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Sorry guys, I've been super busy today, and will continue to do so. I should be around more to talk tomorrow (latter part of D3) than today, but even then I'll be swamped.

I'm voting Golden because he asked to be lynched and seems to really want out.

MovingPictures07 wrote:I still think Golden needs to go so I'm still voting for him.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Death to self-voters!!!!!

MovingPictures07 wrote:My vote isn't lazy. I still have defended golden and still am. I am voting for him to put him out of his misery. The self vote stuff has been just to lighten the mood of the thread but yeah everyone hear knows how I feel about self votes. That doesn't mean I can't see Golden's frustration as genuine.

MovingPictures07 wrote:It's clear to me this golden discussion is completely derailing the thread and i can't wait for him to get the chance to tell all of you "told you so".

Linki at Jay, I've just changed my mind. Golden's self vote, I've been there man. I've felt that emotion before. I'm just helping him move on.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Jay, you really think so?
Why would I make my win condition change so apparent?

MovingPictures07 wrote:Well, fuck PhD work for a little bit, I can squeeze in a few more posts.

I see what's going on here. Well played, Jay and Rox.

Well, I'm absolutely bad. Go ahead and vote for me. Golden and I are baddie teammates. I'm 100% serious. I'm voting Golden because I've sloppily tried to bus him and you all caught me. Nice job!

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:Maybe MP's vote is being forced.

I deny this speculation, good sir, though I can see why you think such a 180 could be explained by an alien in my brain telling me what to do.

I really just am so sick of this talk around Golden; Golden obviously wants to die, what's the big deal?

Do you think he's bad?

Two other players have self-voted. What do you think of them?

I know he's bad. How about that?

Neither of those other two are on my team, so I don't know what I think of them, and I don't care.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:MP, now that you've found your sanity again for the moment, could you restate that you do indeed want Golden lynched because of his self-vote? If that's the case.

Ah, well, I suppose I can elaborate now since I've accomplished what I've wanted to with it.

I don't really want Golden lynched; I never did. Heat on Golden started to die (relatively, it still was definitely there), and if I recall correctly, the vote between him and rey was about tied when I voted. With the state of the thread the way it was, after rey's breakdown as well, I wanted to change up the direction of that specific conversation (Golden v. rey). I wanted to see how everyone would react to me flipping 180 and I specifically wanted to draw attention to how ridiculous I think many of the points and votes against Golden really are. The crusade against him has absolutely become a "GOLDEN MUST BE LYNCHED" train that has flown off the rails, intent to derail many other trains, merely because players are afraid at letting a potentially baddie Golden slip away.

I still firmly believe Golden is neutral.

timmer wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:
I also want to highlight this post because I feel it has some merit.

What do players think of BWT's post? bea's post?

I think several people - Golden, Epig, llama, BWT - are trying to act like they normally do but it is often coming across as false because we all know they are at least mostly likely still neutral. Golden's chit chat in prticular sounded like he was playing the part of civ Golden when in fact he likely isn't civ. BWT's posts feel a bit forced as well. llama's feel a bit more natural, as do Bea's, Epig's and SVS's, and yours.

timmer wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:timmer, could you please reference something specific in Golden's content that you think is indicative of his falsely fulfilling his civilian meta?

It's more of a sense than anything, but Epig kind of nailed it with his colour coding. The fact is, any of us who have been a part of this group for a long time could have been chosen recruiters/team leaders, and made, in the moment, a decision in recruiting targets that goes completely against the grain of everything people think of us in terms of our gameplay. None of the players who have been around for a long time are so boring that they are blindingly predictable. Golden knows this. So his answer, which Epig coded, feels false. It's like, he's trying to have a discussion and show the different facets of how he would come to a decision when we all kind of know that those facets are weighed by everyone in that position. Golden, in short, made a lot of words string together to make it sound like he was saying something - in more real terms, he was playing the "part" of Civ Golden, which often works for him. But the odds are against him in fact being that.

But as for the lynch, I don't see how this makes Golden a lynch target. We all have to post our thoughts, and say things, and get through this awkward part of the game where we have abilities but no guiding purpose. A clan, but no team. It's a weird feeling, so really, if someone is participating and at least trying to contribute, even if it feels false, it's good enough for me for Day 1. I want this game to be legend, the series' cred demands it, and I'd rather vote for a lame-o non-poster than an active one for now.

@Bea, lol, I was caught off guard by that as well.

timmer wrote:Voted DF, but Golden is bugging me, I may switch to him.

timmer wrote:So as I'm reading along, the endless back and forths regarding Golden and MP truck along. They haven't play out yet and I've got a lot of pages to go, but for now I will say that I don't see a problem with MP's game, I'm a fan of his thinking in this game. Golden's playing a sort of similar game, but he seems to be shying away from admitting that his stance on Epig was odd, even for this game. SVS keeps mentioning it, but he isn't directly addressing it, even as he says he is. I'm liking MP more than Golden. And SVS' game is topnotch.

timmer wrote:Okay, so I'm pretty well caught up.

I'm going to try to sum up all of my thoughts in one post.

First, any and all cases that revolve around people not playing like their normal ____ game are irrelevant to me. Whether SVS has seen "this" Golden before, for instance, is useless to my view of this game. We are all stuck in some part of a meta, where we are neutral, then some of us aren't neutral, and some were never neutral, but we are all choosing our own unique path to portray ourselves, and this format is rare thus there IS no meta to actually map out, from a reading perspective. No truth, no tea.

Second, since I'm apparently using RuPaul's Drag Race-isms, let's go with one more. The amount of shade being cast about in here is getting indeed toxic. It's not quite toxic yet, but it's getting there. Let's stop with the "ugh, just lynch me" crap. It's cheap, we're all better than this.

Third, unlike in a normal game, I don't mind at all the people who are suggesting that quieter players should get votes. Only a nutter would recruit from a pool of absentees, imo.

Fourth, the few people who are actually trying to make normal cases all get my thumbs up, and my appreciation, as doing as much as proven to be beyond me so far this game. I note SVS' and rye's thoughts on Golden (while I don't put as much weight on the "never seen this Golden before" stuff {see point #1}, I do appreciate her thoughts on his evasiveness, etc.), also Canuckle's point on Tiny Bubbles.

Fifth, where I'm still at a conundrum is that (and take this with whatever grain of salt you want, I recommend Kosher personally) I still have no team and thus I'm not sure which kind of case to get behind, as any of them could affect my future employer. For instance, Canuckle makes a very good point about TinyBubbles. She seems like she's recruited and unsure of how to act. But what if that's true but Tiny's team will be my team?

Finally, while my vote is on Golden, having said everything I just said, I'd appreciate it if someone could show me the logic in voting elsewhere. Golden's evasiveness has bugged me, but it's not exactly meaty. I'm not sure how to really rally behind the current cases due to my position in the game, so please, give me ideas of how to proceed that sound reasonable, and I may bite.

ETA: and yes, many

Devin the Omniscient wrote:

Golden wrote:After I'm gone, lynch epi please. Thanks.

I won't be voting for either of you.

Devin the Omniscient wrote:I'm going to go ahead and place my vote on bass to help MP out. To me he sounds like genuine, frustrated, overreacting, emotional, explosive, f u MP (Don't take any of these to heart buddy ) and I'd hate to see him go out for it yet again. Also, I like Golden's "case" on bass. :parrotsmilie:

Devin the Omniscient wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Devin the Omniscient wrote:Also, skimmed through 13 pages and saw nothing for the Boomslang votes. Please halp

Click on my post history and find the big ISO from today.

Much appreciated, although I'm not sure how I missed that one before :/

I get the arguments there, but I feel more comfortable with my vote being where it is.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Is Golden being such a distraction entirely his fault? What of the people forcing him into that position including Epignosis?

Who is forcing him into this position. He has been posting and acting the same way since the whole back and forth with Epi started, and I would argue that not even Epi "forced" him to behave that way. This is supposed to be a game, and when you start being emotionally manipulative, you've taken it too far.
Also, Golden had quite a bit more votes before voting for himself on 2 separate occasions during this day phase. That alone makes me feel great about my vote.