Phenon Mafia: ENDGAME - Snuffed

[Long Con]

Looking back, I noticed this post from you, Sloon:

A note: When I've caught Scotty as scum before, it's been for contradictions and inconsistencies in his behavior. I don't typically view him doing weird things with his vote and playing loose as bad things. That is just Scotty being Scotty.

Would you classify Scotty's stump/target-proving claim as contradictory or inconsistent? Why or why not?

I don't think that I would describe it in those terms. It's shady on some level, but I think he's been consistent with the claim at least. His failure to deliver on verification opens the whole thing up to skepticism. I'm not willing to dismiss him as a suspect for claiming a role that he can't or won't prove, but he's not doing anything contradictory.

Missed this, was responding to juliets.

I wish Stumpy would come in and clarify a little.

[Sloonei]

The unfortunate situation for Scotty is that he's probably more useful to the town if he doesn't activate his ability (assuming he's telling the truth), given his time constraints this game. It's a good ole Catch 22.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The tree stump role is stunted in that it's benefits are realized at the expense of a civilian vote. That's a big loss when you're talking about the numbers game and town's ability to control a lynch (typically tied directly into the win condition for the mafia). For numbers purposes, Scotty is effectively dead if the activates that role.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

When I initially provided my positive take on Elohcin, I hadn't seen that she'd officially requested a replacement. That makes me less inclined to support her and I'll drop her out of the coziness of greentown. I had thought she'd just thrown her arms up and said "fuck it", which is different from saying that while actually still promoting the survival of her player slot.

[speedchuck]

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 00#p339044
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 00#p339050
These two posts are like 6 posts apart.
Quin claims soon after.

Quin was doing impulsive things around the start of day. Getting angry more easily, etc. He planned the info drop from the very first of the day, and then was pressured by JJJ and Jack, though lightly. He ended up claiming under these weird circumstances.

NOW MOTIVE:

Either
Quin planned the claim in advance. Perhaps Quin even did the kill, and was preparing in case of a tracker/watcher. Things played out pretty well. Quin reveals what his actual role might have been with the Strongman, and claims doctor. Doctor was a good role to claim here because of reverse psychology. Scum goes for the believable claims. Saying that you doctored the kill target after the target died and then popping hints at the very start of the day leads to motive based trust from town. Or at least from me. Good strategy.
Or
Quin was bemused that his protection did not work, and went ahead and preemptively claimed shenanigans. Quickly, he regretted that decision, and decided to lay his claim out on the table so that his 'magic bagging' (role hinting) wouldn't haunt him for the rest of the game. This, obviously, didn't work out that well.

I could go either way.

[Golden]

<snip>

2) Jay, it's true I didn't have much of a progression in marmot. One thing you left out is the first reads post (where I had him as town) was so early that I didn't even have a read on nutella yet. I liked his map cover and the way he handled himself around it. I didn't like much else thereafter. I referenced Dune which was a game where he lacked in any real content. That's exactly what he felt like here.

On the day he was lynched, I had to be absent and had very little time to contribute, so it is an accurate observation to say I didn't push my marmot suspicion much but I didn't really push any much (even inh, who I voted for). I wish I could say who I would have voted for or what I might have contributed if I was around, but I can't. I think it would probably have been marmot, but perhaps my participation in the thread would have seen inh lynched and delayed the marmot vote. Who knows.

Golden, on the subject of your progression, you indicate you didn't have much of a read on nutella when you did your first reads on Marmot. I took this to mean once you got a civ read on nutella it influenced your thoughts on marmot because she came out against him. I checked her posts and your posts though and you changed your read on marmot before nutella came out against him. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying about the relationship between the two in your mind. Could you clarify?

No, I just meant that this highlights how early that read was of marmot.

[Sloonei]

[VOTE: ] aubergine[VOTE:

Out of all the people I've had some suspicion on today, this one is the strongest. I had some doubts about culture clash but the more I see from Silver Lantern and JoH, the less his posts are excusable. They both have been in the thick of things, not using their unfamiliarity with the posters/style here to excuse their activity/opinions. posted his opinion on the Dys situation to then turn around and say his opinion should be ignored in favor of others. He posted that seeming scummy is a town method of surviving longer where he is from, which I can't see much of a town motivation for posting here. He at that point could tell that is not the standard here nor was there any suspicion on him at the time, so mentioning it could only ever serve as a preliminary defense for any future scum behavior from him or SL/JoH's. Preemptive defenses are near the top of my scumtell list.

Could still be culture clash but I'm betting my money that it is attempting to abuse culture clash to gain an edge.] aubergine

[VOTE: This is an intriguing post in the universe where Soneji and Fredwood are scum together.] aubergine

[Strawhenge]

<snip>

4. After some folks explain why INH's worries were valid, he says that the Dys slip is much more 'juicy'. Possible attempt to redirect conversation. In the same post he says the INH vote was just a pressure-vote. I'm struggling to see why a pressure-vote was needed there.
Again, as I talked about much earlier, I used the term "pressure-vote" to explain the way I was voting him - to indicate a mild suspicion.

<snip>

6. All in one post: snarks at INH, throws shade at Jay for laying off of Golden, asks Dys if we should move on from being suspicious of Dys. That Dys item hurts my brain. LC must be pretty confident that Dys is town if he's asking DYS if we should stop grilling them about it.
Not sure about the first two, but the Dys question was to determine if Dys planned to "do" anything more with his fakeslip. It wasn't about confidence in his town-ness, it was about getting him to reveal if he was done with it, or if he was going anywhere with it. Not going anywhere with it was suspicious in my eyes. Best way to find out is to ask.

<snip>

9. Asks the map-holders if we should trust them. Map-holder or not, a map-claimer is going to say yes to that question.
I don't believe that's what I asked. I asked if the map holders believed that they could promote a Civ victory with the map information they had, not if I could trust them. I wanted to know if they were holding a map and saying "I don't know what the hell I'm looking at here" or if there was some clear info that they could use.

4. Your answer about INH is fine, but I'm still stuck on Dizzy's thing being more juicy than more rational (though, now, incorrect) suspicions. Here's a huge reveal: I didn't really believe Dizzy truly fakeslipped. I pressed that obviously ridiculous reasoning to see who would jump on that bandwagon. I'm not very good at gambits like that, because nobody truly took that bait. You didn't take my bait either, but you still called the fake slip debacle juicy as if to draw more attention to it. What say you to that?

6. Again on the Dizzy thing, you say here that asking Dizzy if we should leave it alone or not was a prompt for Dizzy to 'do' something with it. That makes no sense. If you're suspicious of someone, like you claimed to be, a) they don't get to tell you when the questioning is done, and b) what the hell else was Dizzy going to do to sway opinion at that point?

9. [facepalm] Asking the map holders if they could lead us to victory is tantamount to asking if we can trust them.

[Golden]

I want Golden's night results.

Claiming watcher puts a target on your back. Doing so without bringing forward good information is unnecessary.

I can understand some hesitancy to reveal night information due to the possibility of outing say, the doctor, but I think that ship has sailed.

We already ran into trouble with Golden misinterpreting his information (thinking Marmot had busdriver JJJ and Fred). I wouldn't be surprised (assuming Golden is town) if there was a useful gem of information for the town in those results.

Bullshit. We didn't run into any trouble with me misinterpreting information. I made the claim specifically because I was trying to draw out whether or not jay was bad (I mean, it followed from my claim that I was misdirected). Then I gave accurate information that I did not misinterpret.

I have been very clear that I saw no one but me in my watching results the last two nights. What 'useful gem of information' do you think is in there? Because I can only think of one, and that is knowing who I've targeted, and I think that's of more use to scum than town.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[VOTE: ] aubergine[VOTE:

Out of all the people I've had some suspicion on today, this one is the strongest. I had some doubts about culture clash but the more I see from Silver Lantern and JoH, the less his posts are excusable. They both have been in the thick of things, not using their unfamiliarity with the posters/style here to excuse their activity/opinions. posted his opinion on the Dys situation to then turn around and say his opinion should be ignored in favor of others. He posted that seeming scummy is a town method of surviving longer where he is from, which I can't see much of a town motivation for posting here. He at that point could tell that is not the standard here nor was there any suspicion on him at the time, so mentioning it could only ever serve as a preliminary defense for any future scum behavior from him or SL/JoH's. Preemptive defenses are near the top of my scumtell list.

Could still be culture clash but I'm betting my money that it is attempting to abuse culture clash to gain an edge.] aubergine

[VOTE: This is an intriguing post in the universe where Soneji and Fredwood are scum together.] aubergine

[VOTE:

I think it looks like Soneji trying to smear a guy for reasons that are unfair -- reading Fredwood as scum because he isn't behaving the same way as JOH or SL isn't about "culture clash" unless you expect everyone from a given culture to be clones.] aubergine

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What 'useful gem of information' do you think is in there? Because I can only think of one, and that is knowing who I've targeted, and I think that's of more use to scum than town.

The believability of your claim does hinge on those targets largely, because the last two night kills have been pretty obvious targets -- the sorts of targets often watched by watchers.

[Sloonei]

I want Golden's night results.

Claiming watcher puts a target on your back. Doing so without bringing forward good information is unnecessary.

I can understand some hesitancy to reveal night information due to the possibility of outing say, the doctor, but I think that ship has sailed.

We already ran into trouble with Golden misinterpreting his information (thinking Marmot had busdriver JJJ and Fred). I wouldn't be surprised (assuming Golden is town) if there was a useful gem of information for the town in those results.

Bullshit. We didn't run into any trouble with me misinterpreting information. I made the claim specifically because I was trying to draw out whether or not jay was bad (I mean, it followed from my claim that I was misdirected). Then I gave accurate information that I did not misinterpret.

I have been very clear that I saw no one but me in my watching results the last two nights. What 'useful gem of information' do you think is in there? Because I can only think of one, and that is knowing who I've targeted, and I think that's of more use to scum than town.

Why are you alive? Why did you not watch the publicly exposed vigilante and cop the last two nights?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What 'useful gem of information' do you think is in there? Because I can only think of one, and that is knowing who I've targeted, and I think that's of more use to scum than town.

The believability of your claim does hinge on those targets largely, because the last two night kills have been pretty obvious targets -- the sorts of targets often watched by watchers.

Perhaps instead of revealing the targets immediately, you could start by revealing why you didn't watch Silver Lantern or nutella.

[Sloonei]

[VOTE: ] aubergine[VOTE:

Out of all the people I've had some suspicion on today, this one is the strongest. I had some doubts about culture clash but the more I see from Silver Lantern and JoH, the less his posts are excusable. They both have been in the thick of things, not using their unfamiliarity with the posters/style here to excuse their activity/opinions. posted his opinion on the Dys situation to then turn around and say his opinion should be ignored in favor of others. He posted that seeming scummy is a town method of surviving longer where he is from, which I can't see much of a town motivation for posting here. He at that point could tell that is not the standard here nor was there any suspicion on him at the time, so mentioning it could only ever serve as a preliminary defense for any future scum behavior from him or SL/JoH's. Preemptive defenses are near the top of my scumtell list.

Could still be culture clash but I'm betting my money that it is attempting to abuse culture clash to gain an edge.] aubergine

[VOTE: This is an intriguing post in the universe where Soneji and Fredwood are scum together.] aubergine

[VOTE:

I think it looks like Soneji trying to smear a guy for reasons that are unfair -- reading Fredwood as scum because he isn't behaving the same way as JOH or SL isn't about "culture clash" unless you expect everyone from a given culture to be clones.] aubergine

[VOTE: Why is Soneji your top POE suspect?] aubergine

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Why is Soneji your top POE suspect?

I could come up with something to say in defense of every player except for him. I have no idea what he's done in this game that should indicate him to be a civilian.

[Fredwood]

Fred - 3 - I read his posts and it seemed he mentioned Jack was probably bad a lot yet doesn't rate Jack in his top two. I thought this was odd. Fred, have you been burned badly by Jack in the past? It feels like you think you have to keep mentioning him as bad.

I don't think I have been specifically burned by him, the only time I actually remember being burned by a player was Adamical. I may have been in games where he did burn someone, but I was probably dead by then. If I make it to the end game I have a high win percentage, so It's not that, but in general I've found that my best approach with Jack is to be careful unless given a reason to put him strongly into one category (Town) or the other (scum).

What makes me think he's a suspect is that he keeps misrepresenting my posts, which makes me distrust his other posts regarding others. Additionally, part of the read is based of process of elimination. He keeps harping on that I proffered a theory about strong players wanting to discredit each other early in the game, when 3 strong players were each fighting each other simultaneously. I thought it was an interesting interaction and pointed it out. He then twists it and then uses it as the only proof he really has that he thinks I am bad. The rest of his stuff isn't committal, or just not accurate, and he keeps changing those non-committal reads without any follow up even though I address what he accused me of and he doesn't respond. Up until today I really didn't have a ton of strong thoughts one way or the other and felt there was a slight scum tinge to his game along with a few other people and a number of actual targets. I don't know where people are saying I rank him 3rd among my targets, I might put him in the bottom 3 now but I haven't really done a read list yet.

It feels like today specifically that he wants me to lynching him or Quin, when I think that argument has been exhausted to that point, and I still don't really trust either of them, apparently this train is going to a hospital. And as such am unsure who to go after...I will admit that I am non-commital on that specific argument, because today has been a massive clusterfuck.

[Long Con]

The tree stump role is stunted in that it's benefits are realized at the expense of a civilian vote. That's a big loss when you're talking about the numbers game and town's ability to control a lynch (typically tied directly into the win condition for the mafia). For numbers purposes, Scotty is effectively dead if the activates that role.

I'm still not understanding Stump. Could you maybe give me an example of what my role card would look like if I received "Stump"?

[Strawhenge]

unless you expect everyone from a given culture to be clones.

Aren't we though? Balls to the wall, 'my night role involves choosing a townie to die', etc.?

[Sloonei]

Why is Soneji your top POE suspect?

I could come up with something to say in defense of every player except for him. I have no idea what he's done in this game that should indicate him to be a civilian.

Has he done anything (beyond the one point you just mentioned) that indicates he is scum?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't think I have been specifically burned by him, the only time I actually remember being burned by a player was Adamical. I may have been in games where he did burn someone, but I was probably dead by then. If I make it to the end game I have a high win percentage, so It's not that, but in general I've found that my best approach with Jack is to be careful unless given a reason to put him strongly into one category (Town) or the other (scum).

What makes me think he's a suspect is that he keeps misrepresenting my posts, which makes me distrust his other posts regarding others. Additionally, part of the read is based of process of elimination. He keeps harping on that I proffered a theory about strong players wanting to discredit each other early in the game, when 3 strong players were each fighting each other simultaneously. I thought it was an interesting interaction and pointed it out. He then twists it and then uses it as the only proof he really has that he thinks I am bad. The rest of his stuff isn't committal, or just not accurate, and he keeps changing those non-committal reads without any follow up even though I address what he accused me of and he doesn't respond. Up until today I really didn't have a ton of strong thoughts one way or the other and felt there was a slight scum tinge to his game along with a few other people and a number of actual targets. I don't know where people are saying I rank him 3rd among my targets, I might put him in the bottom 3 now but I haven't really done a read list yet.

It feels like today specifically that he wants me to lynching him or Quin, when I think that argument has been exhausted to that point, and I still don't really trust either of them, apparently this train is going to a hospital. And as such am unsure who to go after...I will admit that I am non-commital on that specific argument, because today has been a massive clusterfuck.

Posts like this one, and Fredwood has made a few, look to me like civilian uncertainty which bad guys try to twist into waffling or being non-committal as an accusation. I have no issue with Fred.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Why is Soneji your top POE suspect?

I could come up with something to say in defense of every player except for him. I have no idea what he's done in this game that should indicate him to be a civilian.

Has he done anything (beyond the one point you just mentioned) that indicates he is scum?

Subpar interactions with Marmot.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

unless you expect everyone from a given culture to be clones.

Aren't we though? Balls to the wall, 'my night role involves choosing a townie to die', etc.?

"What if everyone is a werewolf?"

[Long Con]

<snip>

4. After some folks explain why INH's worries were valid, he says that the Dys slip is much more 'juicy'. Possible attempt to redirect conversation. In the same post he says the INH vote was just a pressure-vote. I'm struggling to see why a pressure-vote was needed there.
Again, as I talked about much earlier, I used the term "pressure-vote" to explain the way I was voting him - to indicate a mild suspicion.

<snip>

6. All in one post: snarks at INH, throws shade at Jay for laying off of Golden, asks Dys if we should move on from being suspicious of Dys. That Dys item hurts my brain. LC must be pretty confident that Dys is town if he's asking DYS if we should stop grilling them about it.
Not sure about the first two, but the Dys question was to determine if Dys planned to "do" anything more with his fakeslip. It wasn't about confidence in his town-ness, it was about getting him to reveal if he was done with it, or if he was going anywhere with it. Not going anywhere with it was suspicious in my eyes. Best way to find out is to ask.

<snip>

9. Asks the map-holders if we should trust them. Map-holder or not, a map-claimer is going to say yes to that question.
I don't believe that's what I asked. I asked if the map holders believed that they could promote a Civ victory with the map information they had, not if I could trust them. I wanted to know if they were holding a map and saying "I don't know what the hell I'm looking at here" or if there was some clear info that they could use.

4. Your answer about INH is fine, but I'm still stuck on Dizzy's thing being more juicy than more rational (though, now, incorrect) suspicions. Here's a huge reveal: I didn't really believe Dizzy truly fakeslipped. I pressed that obviously ridiculous reasoning to see who would jump on that bandwagon. I'm not very good at gambits like that, because nobody truly took that bait. You didn't take my bait either, but you still called the fake slip debacle juicy as if to draw more attention to it. What say you to that?
"As if to draw more attention to it"... loaded language. I wasn't trying to draw undue attention. It was juicy. I thought it was juicy. Didn't you? I mean... it's designed to be juicy. If it wasn't juicy, it wouldn't get attention. It got my attention, mucho juice.

6. Again on the Dizzy thing, you say here that asking Dizzy if we should leave it alone or not was a prompt for Dizzy to 'do' something with it. That makes no sense. If you're suspicious of someone, like you claimed to be, a) they don't get to tell you when the questioning is done, and b) what the hell else was Dizzy going to do to sway opinion at that point?
The fakeslip was Dizzy's baby. She planned it, she planted it, and I expected her to tend to it and reap the bounty of the results. Instead, she seemed to plant it and walk away. This defied my expectations of such a gambit, but I didn't want to default to feeling suspicious if she wasn't done with it. So I asked if she was done with it. I deny your "that makes no sense".

9. [facepalm] Asking the map holders if they could lead us to victory is tantamount to asking if we can trust them.
We can trust the mapholder to be Civ without them thinking they can decipher the map in such a way that promotes Civ victory. It's two different things.

[Strawhenge]

Fred - 3 - I read his posts and it seemed he mentioned Jack was probably bad a lot yet doesn't rate Jack in his top two. I thought this was odd. Fred, have you been burned badly by Jack in the past? It feels like you think you have to keep mentioning him as bad.

I don't think I have been specifically burned by him, the only time I actually remember being burned by a player was Adamical. I may have been in games where he did burn someone, but I was probably dead by then. If I make it to the end game I have a high win percentage, so It's not that, but in general I've found that my best approach with Jack is to be careful unless given a reason to put him strongly into one category (Town) or the other (scum).

What makes me think he's a suspect is that he keeps misrepresenting my posts, which makes me distrust his other posts regarding others. Additionally, part of the read is based of process of elimination. He keeps harping on that I proffered a theory about strong players wanting to discredit each other early in the game, when 3 strong players were each fighting each other simultaneously. I thought it was an interesting interaction and pointed it out. He then twists it and then uses it as the only proof he really has that he thinks I am bad. The rest of his stuff isn't committal, or just not accurate, and he keeps changing those non-committal reads without any follow up even though I address what he accused me of and he doesn't respond. Up until today I really didn't have a ton of strong thoughts one way or the other and felt there was a slight scum tinge to his game along with a few other people and a number of actual targets. I don't know where people are saying I rank him 3rd among my targets, I might put him in the bottom 3 now but I haven't really done a read list yet.

It feels like today specifically that he wants me to lynching him or Quin, when I think that argument has been exhausted to that point, and I still don't really trust either of them, apparently this train is going to a hospital. And as such am unsure who to go after...I will admit that I am non-commital on that specific argument, because today has been a massive clusterfuck.

Usually when I want to be completely noncommittal when challenged about my suspicions, I tend to fall quite short of three paragraphs. I applaud your effort.

(.gif of Fry narrowing his eyes)

[juliets]

Fred - 3 - I read his posts and it seemed he mentioned Jack was probably bad a lot yet doesn't rate Jack in his top two. I thought this was odd. Fred, have you been burned badly by Jack in the past? It feels like you think you have to keep mentioning him as bad.

I don't think I have been specifically burned by him, the only time I actually remember being burned by a player was Adamical. I may have been in games where he did burn someone, but I was probably dead by then. If I make it to the end game I have a high win percentage, so It's not that, but in general I've found that my best approach with Jack is to be careful unless given a reason to put him strongly into one category (Town) or the other (scum).

What makes me think he's a suspect is that he keeps misrepresenting my posts, which makes me distrust his other posts regarding others. Additionally, part of the read is based of process of elimination. He keeps harping on that I proffered a theory about strong players wanting to discredit each other early in the game, when 3 strong players were each fighting each other simultaneously. I thought it was an interesting interaction and pointed it out. He then twists it and then uses it as the only proof he really has that he thinks I am bad. The rest of his stuff isn't committal, or just not accurate, and he keeps changing those non-committal reads without any follow up even though I address what he accused me of and he doesn't respond. Up until today I really didn't have a ton of strong thoughts one way or the other and felt there was a slight scum tinge to his game along with a few other people and a number of actual targets. I don't know where people are saying I rank him 3rd among my targets, I might put him in the bottom 3 now but I haven't really done a read list yet.

It feels like today specifically that he wants me to lynching him or Quin, when I think that argument has been exhausted to that point, and I still don't really trust either of them, apparently this train is going to a hospital. And as such am unsure who to go after...I will admit that I am non-commital on that specific argument, because today has been a massive clusterfuck.

Thanks Fred and I understand about today being a cluster fuck. I would still love to see some reads from you.

linki

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The tree stump role is stunted in that it's benefits are realized at the expense of a civilian vote. That's a big loss when you're talking about the numbers game and town's ability to control a lynch (typically tied directly into the win condition for the mafia). For numbers purposes, Scotty is effectively dead if the activates that role.

I'm still not understanding Stump. Could you maybe give me an example of what my role card would look like if I received "Stump"?

I don't know exactly what Scotty's claim entails, but this is the stump I know:

"At any point in the game [or during any night phase] you may elect to become a stump. You will be immune to kills and all other night actions. You cannot be lynched. You may not vote."

Basically it makes the player mechanically useless, but gives their voice immortality. Think of Ricochet in the 2015 GOC; similar deal.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't know exactly what Scotty's claim entails, but this is the stump I know:

"At any point in the game [or during any night phase] you may elect to become a stump. You will be immune to kills and all other night actions. You cannot be lynched. You may not vote."

Basically it makes the player mechanically useless, but gives their voice immortality. Think of Ricochet in the 2015 GOC; similar deal.

All the while confirming publicly the stump role and alignment, I should say.

[Golden]

What 'useful gem of information' do you think is in there? Because I can only think of one, and that is knowing who I've targeted, and I think that's of more use to scum than town.

The believability of your claim does hinge on those targets largely, because the last two night kills have been pretty obvious targets -- the sorts of targets often watched by watchers.

Perhaps instead of revealing the targets immediately, you could start by revealing why you didn't watch Silver Lantern or nutella.

I did initially watch Nutella, but I changed my mind halfway through the night.

Silver lantern made no particular impression on me by the time I had to ask sprit if he'd accept my ability early. I don't remember when the vig claim came.

I've been thinking of this role as being as useful in knowing who to protect in the thread as who to go after. I've heard of watchers but never seen one in action, so I'll admit I haven't had the clear a thought process as 'find the killer'. I've been thinking more 'who's likely to be targeted'. I want as much info as possible to help me solve the game.

In terms of my ability to identify the kill target - well you're right that Nutella was obvious in hindsight and I should have stuck, but I'm having trouble keeping up with the thread to the point where I would ask for a replacement if sprit had them available. There's so much going on and to ask me to pick the exact target the baddies are nking is, or feels like, the same thing as criticising me for my time deficit, which I just can't help.

But in my opinion even saying 'this is the philosophy for how to pick my target as a watcher' seems to be a leg up for the baddies and I believe I have a pattern that I'd need to change if I revealed each one.

[Long Con]

The tree stump role is stunted in that it's benefits are realized at the expense of a civilian vote. That's a big loss when you're talking about the numbers game and town's ability to control a lynch (typically tied directly into the win condition for the mafia). For numbers purposes, Scotty is effectively dead if the activates that role.

I'm still not understanding Stump. Could you maybe give me an example of what my role card would look like if I received "Stump"?

I don't know exactly what Scotty's claim entails, but this is the stump I know:

"At any point in the game [or during any night phase] you may elect to become a stump. You will be immune to kills and all other night actions. You cannot be lynched. You may not vote."

Basically it makes the player mechanically useless, but gives their voice immortality. Think of Ricochet in the 2015 GOC; similar deal.

[speedchuck]

The tree stump role is stunted in that it's benefits are realized at the expense of a civilian vote. That's a big loss when you're talking about the numbers game and town's ability to control a lynch (typically tied directly into the win condition for the mafia). For numbers purposes, Scotty is effectively dead if the activates that role.

I'm still not understanding Stump. Could you maybe give me an example of what my role card would look like if I received "Stump"?

I don't know exactly what Scotty's claim entails, but this is the stump I know:

"At any point in the game [or during any night phase] you may elect to become a stump. You will be immune to kills and all other night actions. You cannot be lynched. You may not vote."

Basically it makes the player mechanically useless, but gives their voice immortality. Think of Ricochet in the 2015 GOC; similar deal.

Sounds useless.

If it was a day activation, it would be like, "Hey! Don't waste your day's kill on me! I'll give you an extra shot today!" *turns into stump*
But as a night activation, it's so useless.

[Strawhenge]

<snip>

4. After some folks explain why INH's worries were valid, he says that the Dys slip is much more 'juicy'. Possible attempt to redirect conversation. In the same post he says the INH vote was just a pressure-vote. I'm struggling to see why a pressure-vote was needed there.
Again, as I talked about much earlier, I used the term "pressure-vote" to explain the way I was voting him - to indicate a mild suspicion.

<snip>

6. All in one post: snarks at INH, throws shade at Jay for laying off of Golden, asks Dys if we should move on from being suspicious of Dys. That Dys item hurts my brain. LC must be pretty confident that Dys is town if he's asking DYS if we should stop grilling them about it.
Not sure about the first two, but the Dys question was to determine if Dys planned to "do" anything more with his fakeslip. It wasn't about confidence in his town-ness, it was about getting him to reveal if he was done with it, or if he was going anywhere with it. Not going anywhere with it was suspicious in my eyes. Best way to find out is to ask.

<snip>

9. Asks the map-holders if we should trust them. Map-holder or not, a map-claimer is going to say yes to that question.
I don't believe that's what I asked. I asked if the map holders believed that they could promote a Civ victory with the map information they had, not if I could trust them. I wanted to know if they were holding a map and saying "I don't know what the hell I'm looking at here" or if there was some clear info that they could use.

4. Your answer about INH is fine, but I'm still stuck on Dizzy's thing being more juicy than more rational (though, now, incorrect) suspicions. Here's a huge reveal: I didn't really believe Dizzy truly fakeslipped. I pressed that obviously ridiculous reasoning to see who would jump on that bandwagon. I'm not very good at gambits like that, because nobody truly took that bait. You didn't take my bait either, but you still called the fake slip debacle juicy as if to draw more attention to it. What say you to that?
"As if to draw more attention to it"... loaded language. I wasn't trying to draw undue attention. It was juicy. I thought it was juicy. Didn't you? I mean... it's designed to be juicy. If it wasn't juicy, it wouldn't get attention. It got my attention, mucho juice.

6. Again on the Dizzy thing, you say here that asking Dizzy if we should leave it alone or not was a prompt for Dizzy to 'do' something with it. That makes no sense. If you're suspicious of someone, like you claimed to be, a) they don't get to tell you when the questioning is done, and b) what the hell else was Dizzy going to do to sway opinion at that point?
The fakeslip was Dizzy's baby. She planned it, she planted it, and I expected her to tend to it and reap the bounty of the results. Instead, she seemed to plant it and walk away. This defied my expectations of such a gambit, but I didn't want to default to feeling suspicious if she wasn't done with it. So I asked if she was done with it. I deny your "that makes no sense".

9. [facepalm] Asking the map holders if they could lead us to victory is tantamount to asking if we can trust them.
We can trust the mapholder to be Civ without them thinking they can decipher the map in such a way that promotes Civ victory. It's two different things.

It was juicy at first, but not when the suspicions of INH had much more plausible roots. You didn't ask Dizzy if she was done with the gambit; you asked her if we should stop talking about it. That's what is two different things. Completely unlike asking map holders if we can trust them, and asking map holders if we can trust them.

[Sloonei]

I've read Soneji's and Fredwood's posts. Fredwood looks good. Soneji looks like a big shrug. I agree with Jay that his spinning of a suspicion against Fredwood has the potential of a scum player pursuing a low hanging fruit case while avoiding heavier scrutiny by getting involved in any of the more central issues. There are a lot of things which Soneji has said absolutely nothing about in this game. He appears to have been active on Day 1 but then fell behind. I don't fault him for that, but it provides an uninspiring history of activity in this game.

I also felt like his treatment of Dyslexicon on Day 1 was first angling to suspect him, and then later a begrudging acceptance that the slip itself was not suspicious while refusing to relinquish his general suspicion against Dizzy. I did not like it.

Fredwood looks like a townie who is trying to get his feet under him in a foreign environment.

[Golden]

Even at the time, as the actual map holder, it was clear to me lc was not asking if he could trust me but rather if the map was useful, which is why my response to him was what it was.

[Strawhenge]

Another subject: Golden has a crapload of material to read through, and I've not the requisite time to comb through it for an ISO. My guilt over having little time for this game is raging like some inflamed pustule. He remains in my 'vaguely suspicious' category. I'll do my ultimate damnedest to stay abreast of current goings on.

[Long Con]

Another subject: Golden has a crapload of material to read through, and I've not the requisite time to comb through it for an ISO. My guilt over having little time for this game is raging like some inflamed pustule. He remains in my 'vaguely suspicious' category. I'll do my ultimate damnedest to stay abreast of current goings on.

Maybe you should ask Soneji to lance your inflamed postule?

[Long Con]

EBWOP: I mean Sloonei. Damn name similarities.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't recommend popping a cap in Golden's arse.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

As the day wears on I am find myself returning/regressing to my suspicion of JOH too. If I were to make a bulleted list of scummy things said/done by every player, his list would be the longest.

[Sloonei]

EBWOP: I mean Sloonei. Damn name similarities.

Have you given an answer about your nights 1 & 3 targets?

[Fredwood]

Fred, when you come on today and after you catch up would you give a set of reads please?

Also guys, just trying to put the pieces together, is a stump someone who doesn't talk or vote? And does it make sense that you would "activate" your stumpiness? I'm just totally unfamiliar with a role like this.

I can't help with the balance issues, I generally don't host and when I do, have help with balance.

Confirmed
JJJ

Strong Town Reads
Dys

light town reads
juliets (engages me, one of the few people that does so without it being an accusation...so either she's incredibly disarming or is genuine, plus I'm more likely to believe the claim in the way it came about then Quin's)
Golden
Sloonei

null
Eloh
Speed (still lean slight town on him but he's not in the same tier as those ahead of him)
Straw (a good POE if we ever get to that point)

light scum (This a clusterfuck...like I legit don't know what to make of these people at this moment because of the last day phase. GTH, if I was forced to pick I'd pick Jack as the loser of the Jack v Quin fight)
LC
Quin

Moderate scum
Jack...yeah he's my 3rd target now (shrug)

sirens
Soneji
Scotty --- I have no idea what a stump is, after reading I have no idea how a stump helps a town, plus I read that Mafia sometimes makes people stumps. I never have played with a stump outside of the one I had in my yard as a kid in Florida that was filled with a large Gecko colony. I just don't get it as a concept or a claim, so corrupted data, I haven't really changed my stance until I can fully understand what the deal is. Don't we already have a stump in Eloh? (essentially just not mechanically)

[Strawhenge]

Even at the time, as the actual map holder, it was clear to me lc was not asking if he could trust me but rather if the map was useful, which is why my response to him was what it was.

For some reason I'm unable to grab the actual post, but the quote is, 'To the three Map-Holders: Do you think you should be followed? Do you feel like you can look at the map and further a Civ win with your choices?'

Do you think you should be followed. Do you feel like you can look at the map and further a Civ win with your choices.

That is, literally, asking them if they can be trusted. But I do need to stress that this was just a peculiar post, rather than an outright suspicious one. It's far from my main focus on LC.

[juliets]

As the day wears on I am find myself returning/regressing to my suspicion of JOH too. If I were to make a bulleted list of scummy things said/done by every player, his list would be the longest.

Do you feel like only one of JOH or Quin is bad?

linki

[JaggedJimmyJay]

To the three Map-Holders: Do you think you should be followed? Do you feel like you can look at the map and further a Civ win with your choices?

Just curious because my choice (East) was mostly random.

[Strawhenge]

As the day wears on I am find myself returning/regressing to my suspicion of JOH too. If I were to make a bulleted list of scummy things said/done by every player, his list would be the longest.

I'd be interested in that list, because his tenacity and pressing of specific subjects has seemed, overall, to be more townish than scumlike. Emphasis on 'overall'; in my efforts in catching up I probably have missed several little scum nuggets.

[Sloonei]

As the day wears on I am find myself returning/regressing to my suspicion of JOH too. If I were to make a bulleted list of scummy things said/done by every player, his list would be the longest.

Do you feel like only one of JOH or Quin is bad?

linki

My feeling from the beginning of the day was that exactly one of those two was bad. I've wavered a bit on that, but I still feel it a little bit. I would pick Jack as the bad one right now.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

As the day wears on I am find myself returning/regressing to my suspicion of JOH too. If I were to make a bulleted list of scummy things said/done by every player, his list would be the longest.

Do you feel like only one of JOH or Quin is bad?

linki

I wouldn't make that inference confidently. I can see a universe for all three possibilities: 0, 1, or 2 baddies.

[Strawhenge]

I've been meaning to ask, but refresh me on the meaning of POE.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I've been meaning to ask, but refresh me on the meaning of POE.

It's one of those lantern-toting ghosts in Ocarina of Time.

[Sloonei]

I've been meaning to ask, but refresh me on the meaning of POE.

He was a time-traveling alcoholic who wrote horror stories.

[Golden]

I want Golden's night results.

Claiming watcher puts a target on your back. Doing so without bringing forward good information is unnecessary.

I can understand some hesitancy to reveal night information due to the possibility of outing say, the doctor, but I think that ship has sailed.

We already ran into trouble with Golden misinterpreting his information (thinking Marmot had busdriver JJJ and Fred). I wouldn't be surprised (assuming Golden is town) if there was a useful gem of information for the town in those results.

Bullshit. We didn't run into any trouble with me misinterpreting information. I made the claim specifically because I was trying to draw out whether or not jay was bad (I mean, it followed from my claim that I was misdirected). Then I gave accurate information that I did not misinterpret.

I have been very clear that I saw no one but me in my watching results the last two nights. What 'useful gem of information' do you think is in there? Because I can only think of one, and that is knowing who I've targeted, and I think that's of more use to scum than town.

Why are you alive? Why did you not watch the publicly exposed vigilante and cop the last two nights?

These questions seem oddly contradictory.