The Syndicate

Sometimes RL sucks

Question for you all:

I had planned Night 9 to be the night where I give anyone who wants the chance to compete for a prize. It would be trivia based. I want to ensure there's enough interest before I put it together. Is there interest? There would be three prizes available-- all are good-- and the first place winner would have first pick, the second would have second, and the third-- third.

sorry for the RL stuff Neverwhere Hope it all gets better soon. Feel free to message me anytime if you need someone to talk to.

Golden wrote:Where is splints? Why has she been so quiet? Add her to my suspect list. Dfaraday too. I need to do some really good examining.

Just because. I don't want to use RL as an excuse so much. It is what it is. If you suspect me for my quietness so be it, but keep in mind I have gone pretty quiet everywhere. I haven't even gotten a chance to go ask Sloonei questions in the interrogation room.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:on Day 2 as splints was still working to acclimate herself with the game, she selected Cobalt as the more suspicious party in the Cobalt/LC dynamic. i am not inclined to lambaste her for this primarily because she might not have been wrong about Cobalt. however, it still does stand as a soft defense of LC and if that becomes a trend it'll be more troubling.

The thing about the LC/Cobalt drama was that it started from another game, and it involved me too. (I can reiterate what happened again, but I am pretty sure it's been said many times so) What stood out most to me about that at the time was that Cobalt had said it started as a joke suspicion that progressed into an actual suspicion. The whole thing felt very attacky. I can't be the only one who felt really uncomfortable there.

Also, for the record. I have been mafia with LC a couple times. If we were teammates, he wouldn't have wanted me to defend him. That is the opposite of how he plays. In the game we played on JTM (the one where Cobalt defended him all game and I went after him) LC had this to say in his mafia chat: (I'm posting both the link and quote because you might have to be added to that area to see it.)

baddie Long Con in 90's JTM game wrote: I'm totally up for planning my own sacrifice from the beginning with someone. Like, set up an adversarial relationship and eventually I "slip up" and get lynched. Maybe two teammate could come after me. *shrug* Unless you guys don't dig that kind of play.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Spoiler: show

fingersplints wrote:

Golden wrote:I think it's really because we are in a bit of a holding pattern. We need a lynch or two to get some info and get us moving again.

This. I will leave my bass suspicion until tomorrow. I'm voting sig.

splints, could you explain why you were willing to delay your Bass case at this point and pursue a sig lynch instead? i don't think it's a bad look for you, but i'd like to be clearer on your thought process.

Sure. I had been suspicious of bass for longer, but the case on Sig was stronger. Bass wasn't around, and I wanted to give him more chance to respond since that may have alleviated some of my suspicion of him. (Which I still don't think he ever did) Also, a lot of my suspicion of him had to do with my theory that he was on team Wildhorn, and I was a bit paranoid I was reading him wrong due to the LC/Cobalt situation. Later, I dropped my suspicion of him entirely due to him seeming to survive a kill from a member of that team.

I don't always vote my number 1 suspect, and sometimes I get heat for it. (see Economics - my vote for aether after tunneling on BR all game. Slightly different, but not really. I took the credit you guys gave me that game for playing my role cleverly, but I didn't actually think about the votes around me until just after the vote was cast.)
I just think that sometimes we need some information to get the game going. So I'd rather vote to lynch my number 2 or 3, then throw away another vote trying to get bass to talk more again.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:this is probably the most interesting period of splints' post history. on Day 4 when eventually LC was lynched and flipped mafia, splints lent him significant aid in the tally. she didn't speak in his favor, but she tied the vote 5-5 between LC and G-Man. it would seem it was quite plausible at this point for G-Man to be lynched instead. this lends further support to the notion that splints is unlikely to be a member of Team Webber, but it could also tie her more closely with Team Wildhorn. she actually said nothing whatsoever about LC during this phase, and very little about him prior to it. this is something she is going to have to talk about, because it's not a great look.

I will agree that this is not a great look, but it doesn't make me bad either. I don't mind talking about LC if you have more questions after what I said up there ^ I don't think it's likely with the attention he was receiving for days that LC's teammates voted to save him.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Spoiler: show

fingersplints wrote:Just woke up didn't realize the poll ended then. Sorry I have a hard time keeping track of the time that way. poll gives me time in my time zone :P

I voted bubbles. I know she commented on her playing being off, but I still think it's off because she hasn't been bad before.

somewhat surprising move. earlier in the game when Bubbles had drawn some heat, splints was softly defensive of her. so i am not sure what changed her mind enough to warrant this Day 5 vote. Bubbles was probably a pretty easy target and i am always wary of opportunistic moves like this one might be.

I was defensive of her in the beginning (because I played with her on infjs ), but in the end I couldn't ignore that this wasn't the same civvie game I had seen before. Unfortunately it seems that this wasn't because she was bad, but because she was overwhelmed.
Also, all my other strong suspicions had been lynched, so while I didn't express a lot of suspicion of her, I also hadn't suspected many others still alive at this point. I was running out of time to vote, and didn't want to miss a vote. I clearly made the wrong choice.

Did I get it all? I think I probably missed some other stuff. so let me know what else.

Dom wrote:Question for you all:

I had planned Night 9 to be the night where I give anyone who wants the chance to compete for a prize. It would be trivia based. I want to ensure there's enough interest before I put it together. Is there interest? There would be three prizes available-- all are good-- and the first place winner would have first pick, the second would have second, and the third-- third.

I would love to play some trivia. This has probably been one of the few times I might have been good at trivia, but I haven't been around to play any.

Scotty wrote:Not suspecting you Epi, because your reads on GMan and BR make it hard to put you on a mafia team. But I can't be behind you on stuff when it appears that you're playing darts in the dark.

I'll have you know that my skill level is not affected by diminished illumination.

Dom wrote:Question for you all:

I had planned Night 9 to be the night where I give anyone who wants the chance to compete for a prize. It would be trivia based. I want to ensure there's enough interest before I put it together. Is there interest? There would be three prizes available-- all are good-- and the first place winner would have first pick, the second would have second, and the third-- third.

Sure! I will suck at Broadway trivia, but if I am available (which on Tuesday I probably will be), count me in.

Dom wrote:Question for you all:

I had planned Night 9 to be the night where I give anyone who wants the chance to compete for a prize. It would be trivia based. I want to ensure there's enough interest before I put it together. Is there interest? There would be three prizes available-- all are good-- and the first place winner would have first pick, the second would have second, and the third-- third.

What is the format like? Is it it a set time kind of thing? PM based? I should be around except for a 4 hour block of time, and you know I love me some Broadway trivia.

Dom wrote:Question for you all:

I had planned Night 9 to be the night where I give anyone who wants the chance to compete for a prize. It would be trivia based. I want to ensure there's enough interest before I put it together. Is there interest? There would be three prizes available-- all are good-- and the first place winner would have first pick, the second would have second, and the third-- third.

Most definitely interested!

Glad you didn't die, Scotty, you're definitely reading civ to me.

I don't think much of Epi's case tying Ninja and Golden together. I feel better about Golden than nearly anyone else, although I do still think Ninja could be bad based on her voting history. Bass is my top suspect atm, but I don't want to vote just yet if votes aren't changeable after all.

Scotty wrote:

Dom wrote:Question for you all:

I had planned Night 9 to be the night where I give anyone who wants the chance to compete for a prize. It would be trivia based. I want to ensure there's enough interest before I put it together. Is there interest? There would be three prizes available-- all are good-- and the first place winner would have first pick, the second would have second, and the third-- third.

What is the format like? Is it it a set time kind of thing? PM based? I should be around except for a 4 hour block of time, and you know I love me some Broadway trivia.

I have seen two variations. An in-thread variety, or a chatroom variety to add speed to the contest and keep from cluttering the game thread with OT. I would expect the latter of these two options to be the case.

fingersplints wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:on Day 2 as splints was still working to acclimate herself with the game, she selected Cobalt as the more suspicious party in the Cobalt/LC dynamic. i am not inclined to lambaste her for this primarily because she might not have been wrong about Cobalt. however, it still does stand as a soft defense of LC and if that becomes a trend it'll be more troubling.

The thing about the LC/Cobalt drama was that it started from another game, and it involved me too. (I can reiterate what happened again, but I am pretty sure it's been said many times so) What stood out most to me about that at the time was that Cobalt had said it started as a joke suspicion that progressed into an actual suspicion. The whole thing felt very attacky. I can't be the only one who felt really uncomfortable there.

Also, for the record. I have been mafia with LC a couple times. If we were teammates, he wouldn't have wanted me to defend him. That is the opposite of how he plays. In the game we played on JTM (the one where Cobalt defended him all game and I went after him) LC had this to say in his mafia chat: (I'm posting both the link and quote because you might have to be added to that area to see it.)

baddie Long Con in 90's JTM game wrote:
linki MM- Oh cool! That sounds like fun
I'm totally up for planning my own sacrifice from the beginning with someone. Like, set up an adversarial relationship and eventually I "slip up" and get lynched. Maybe two teammate could come after me. *shrug* Unless you guys don't dig that kind of play.

Well that's interesting. Didn't Golden suggest that may have been a thing LC/Cobalt were doing early on? I don't remember how well that worked for LC in the JTM game. I also don't remember LC being too attacky with anyone except....Golden. Actually they did have a pretty adversarial relationship for a bit...

hmm...that would be hilariously evil- hypothetically- if Golden was also sacrificed by his team to give him cred, though that doesn't really fit with LC's JTM strategy.

" If we were teammates, he wouldn't have wanted me to defend him. That is the opposite of how he plays. "
Not necessarily. Could be how he played the previous times. I understand mafia would want to mix it up, eh?

fingersplints wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:this is probably the most interesting period of splints' post history. on Day 4 when eventually LC was lynched and flipped mafia, splints lent him significant aid in the tally. she didn't speak in his favor, but she tied the vote 5-5 between LC and G-Man. it would seem it was quite plausible at this point for G-Man to be lynched instead. this lends further support to the notion that splints is unlikely to be a member of Team Webber, but it could also tie her more closely with Team Wildhorn. she actually said nothing whatsoever about LC during this phase, and very little about him prior to it. this is something she is going to have to talk about, because it's not a great look.

I will agree that this is not a great look, but it doesn't make me bad either. I don't mind talking about LC if you have more questions after what I said up there ^ I don't think it's likely with the attention he was receiving for days that LC's teammates voted to save him.

I don't remember you defending him at all. You referenced other games, and equated that to how he was playing now. But that was the extent of what I remember you doing. My suspicion arises from how standoffish you were from LC up until he was voted out.

splints, who do you currently suspect after Bass, and why?

Apparently LC was talking to me in a game on JTM even though I've never played there.

Thanks for fixing the poll and the thread title Dom!

Wtf? Sorry MM I'm not sure how I mixed that up.
I'm sure Epi will bring attention to it though and say it's a conspiracy for MM to be mafia.

And yes, thank you for making the votes changeable again, Dom!

I don't recall being standoffish to LC. I'm trying to look back to see what you mean.

fingersplints wrote:I don't recall being standoffish to LC. I'm trying to look back to see what you mean.

I think he was referring to how reluctant you were to vote LC or pursue leads on him., which is true.

I don't think I was reluctant to vote LC. There were other cases as well, that also proved to be good ones.
I was reluctant to pursue the one lead on him, that is true. I already addressed that in the last post. The situation was uncomfortable and a bit personal. While it didn't surprise me much since I have played with them on jtm, that doesn't mean I wish to engage in it or play that way.

@Splints
I get that you didn't want to be a part of that. It was reluctance, of sorts. Objectively, your opinion of LC is very much indirectly linked to what others think of him. Meaning you don't ever really have an opinion on him one way or the other.

Here you talk about LC in relation to how other people think of him.

fingersplints wrote:So I've been reading from the beginning. I think that of LC vs Cobalt. Cobalt looks worse to me, but I am not sure I am suspicious of either yet earlier. I think that it is understandable for him to be a bit wary of LC because of the 90's game on JTM, but it seemed pretty extreme. Now it seems to be a joke

I also find Bass suspicious. This post here caught my eye on I've read all his posts now.

What bothered me on there is Epi asked him to read LC and tell him if there is anything suspicious. Instead of doing that bass asks a couple questions of Epi: "Is it because there are only six post, 3 of which are fluff posts?"
"Is it the MP/Epi shoving match post?"

Providing reasons it COULD be suspicious without actually committing that he found LC suspicious for those reasons.

Reading through his posts he is asking a lot of questions of others, and I also feel like he is being a bit careful with his wording about LC. Here he mentions feeling bad about LC, but already feeling better about him in the same posts. But then gives excuses why he might be wrong about it.

fingersplints wrote:

Sloonei wrote:

Hedgeowl wrote:I don't like the taunting Cobalt trying to get us to vote him now. Claiming that ability after someone guessed it seems like what you did I a game LC when Juliets said you were indy and you weren't.

I am almost inclined to leave the LC-Cobalt thing for another day, but there have been so many questions raised between these two. I still have 4-5 pages to read before the last lynch,

Why would you want to leave those two for another day? I'm inclined to vote for cobalt more for the sake of moving the game along than anything else. We're all gonna stay hung up on this case for as long as it remains open and I feel it's turned into a big distraction. The sooner it's dealt with, the better.

This. I feel like this is dominating the thread and we have other baddies to catch as well.

fingersplints wrote:I'm not convinced LC is a civvie, but I can't see Gman being one at all. I don't have a lot of time tonight and am not sure I will be around much more before the lynch

That's all you say in reference to LC before we kill him. It is very standoffish, and again, as you've said- it doesn't look good, but it doesn't automatically mean you're bad. But baddie hunting for the other team and looking the other way on some key suspicions is pretty suspicious looking.

fingersplints wrote:I have been reevaluating my suspicion of bass. a lot of my suspicion was based of him being careful about his mentioning LC, but since that team seemed to try and kill him last night I feel a bit better about him. I second (or third or what not) the questioning if he knows how he survived.

Do you still feel a bit better about Bass? That was Day 6. Between him, BR and GMan, Bass was on your radar the most early game.

fingersplints wrote: a lot of my suspicion of him had to do with my theory that he was on team Wildhorn, and I was a bit paranoid I was reading him wrong due to the LC/Cobalt situation. Later, I dropped my suspicion of him entirely due to him seeming to survive a kill from a member of that team

So can Bass not be on Team Webber? What if you looked at him through that lens?

Note, splints, that I've been looking at you through a LC-aligned lens this whole time. I don't intrinsically see you as bad, but there are a lot of question marks when met with the right focus. In general, I can't pin you with LC even through that lens. The BR thing is the big thing. I thought maybe your viewpoint shifted on BR after she was corrupted (safe to say it was Night 3), and your focus of BR changed a bit on Day 2, and didn't really alter much when you brought her up again on Day 6 and were at least semivocal about lynching her. Could be a tactic of gaining civ trust once BR comes out as bad, but I don't think that has a whole lot of merit.

I still want to know what you think of Bass as of now though.

A little sidetrack, looking at the MIAs. Gumshoe for instance hasn't posted since Night 1, and has 44 posts.
Splints has 52 posts.


I love how Gumshoe's last post was this:

Gumshoe wrote:I should probably make a note for y'all, I will always put time with loved ones as my top priority (of course) and I get that at weird hours. Especially late at night. Also there will be some days that you hear very little from me and that will typically be why. I know I'm being captain obvious but you guys don't know me so I'm letting you in on how I operate and a glance at what to expect from my "schedule".

Don't worry though. I'll make time to PM Dom and tell him that I choose to kill each and every one of you tonight.

Oh since it's a changeable vote day I'll go ahead and place mine on Bass. Not sure how I feel about splints right now, I thought the case on her was really strong and her defenses are ok but not stellar, so I've still got a big eye on her.

The trivia game will be unlike Epig's. I will make a list of questions, and the first to answer all correctly wins. And the second. And the third.

Scotty wrote:A little sidetrack, looking at the MIAs. Gumshoe for instance hasn't posted since Night 1, and has 44 posts.
Splints has 52 posts.

Other players alive have even less.

Scotty wrote: So can Bass not be on Team Webber? What if you looked at him through that lens?

Bass absolutely could be on Team Webber. I was willing to reconsider my original pings on him , but I don't think he has acted any less suspicious over time.

Dom wrote:The trivia game will be unlike Epig's. I will make a list of questions, and the first to answer all correctly wins. And the second. And the third.

Will you give advance notice of when the challenge will be posted? Time-based advantages bother me

AS you can see, JJJ, the game has taken off today. It's really fierce.

One of my other games just ended so I can also devote more time here.

Hi Scotty, nice to see you.

What JJ and MM said. Sorry I've been a bit absent. I need to take some time to actually do some other things but I'll be back here proper before end of day.

Hi MM. I see you here

Well my thing is: yes, there's probably other stuff to talk about here, but for now several of my reads rely on knowing the alignment of Bass.

Could there be more said about Epi's ninja v. Golden link? Eh, maybe. but I don't buy it as of now.
Having half the living people absent in some capacity really hurts the variability of candidates.
Bass just seems the most --wait for it-- fishy.

I have not been feeling very proactive this game, and I apologize for that.

Linki: you have a way with words Master Comedian.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:One of my other games just ended so I can also devote more time here.

Me too! Hopefully you guys won because I did not

whats funny is there was the talk this game of games with merged mafias, and wouldn't you know I find out that game had a merged mafia team

It was a beautiful weekend, far too nice to stay in on the computer, Plus I had a fancy restaurant catered birthday for a one year old. I am guessing they will rent the Taj Mahal for her wedding, or maybe her sweet 16.

So sorry away so much; but also I mus say, I also avoided the thread somewhat. Since I came back, I read the whole thread, and have some opinions. But it seems to me that everyone already has their mind made up, and does not want to hear anything different. When I came it it was between Black Rock & Cobalt. I still have no idea why everyone thought Cobalt was suspicious. I read the thread, I read Cobalt in isolation, I reread him. I feel kinda like a voice in the wilderness, and that's not immensely fun, tbh.

I think Sloonei was 100% right. I think Ninjabloop is as bad as they come. I am not feeling the Golden connection that Epi posits, but I think Ninja made one really good post in defense, and the only thing that sets her defense apart from Black Rocks to me is tone. And having played a few games with Ninja, I will say that I admire her ability to keep it light and bantering at all times, civ or bad. Her tone is fairly level & light regardless. So if you remove tone from the equation (as was not done with Cobalt), her defense it not all that.

So I am going to vote for her.

Also, waiting for carpool person in car, it just seems too convenient to me. Slooneis biggest suspect is Blooper, he dies at night. She lays low until her name cones back up, she shows up with the big sincerity, she falls off the radar again.

I just don't buy it.

fingersplints wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:One of my other games just ended so I can also devote more time here.

Me too! Hopefully you guys won because I did not

whats funny is there was the talk this game of games with merged mafias, and wouldn't you know I find out that game had a merged mafia team

We did, or at least Golden and I did. JJJ unfortunately was recruited late to an Indy team in a game where baddies were dropping like flies. It was one of the greatest civilian games I had ever been a part of (though I subbed into the game later). We took out all 5 baddies by Night 3.

S~V~S wrote:It was a beautiful weekend, far too nice to stay in on the computer, Plus I had a fancy restaurant catered birthday for a one year old. I am guessing they will rent the Taj Mahal for her wedding, or maybe her sweet 16.

So sorry away so much; but also I mus say, I also avoided the thread somewhat. Since I came back, I read the whole thread, and have some opinions. But it seems to me that everyone already has their mind made up, and does not want to hear anything different. When I came it it was between Black Rock & Cobalt. I still have no idea why everyone thought Cobalt was suspicious. I read the thread, I read Cobalt in isolation, I reread him. I feel kinda like a voice in the wilderness, and that's not immensely fun, tbh.

I think Sloonei was 100% right. I think Ninjabloop is as bad as they come. I am not feeling the Golden connection that Epi posits, but I think Ninja made one really good post in defense, and the only thing that sets her defense apart from Black Rocks to me is tone. And having played a few games with Ninja, I will say that I admire her ability to keep it light and bantering at all times, civ or bad. Her tone is fairly level & light regardless. So if you remove tone from the equation (as was not done with Cobalt), her defense it not all that.

So I am going to vote for her.

Do you see the validity in the case against Bass as well?

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

fingersplints wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:One of my other games just ended so I can also devote more time here.

Me too! Hopefully you guys won because I did not

whats funny is there was the talk this game of games with merged mafias, and wouldn't you know I find out that game had a merged mafia team

We did, or at least Golden and I did. JJJ unfortunately was recruited late to an Indy team in a game where baddies were dropping like flies. It was one of the greatest civilian games I had ever been a part of (though I subbed into the game later). We took out all 5 baddies by Night 3.

I meant the game I was playing that just ended had a merged mafia team.

S~V~S wrote: I think Sloonei was 100% right. I think Ninjabloop is as bad as they come. I am not feeling the Golden connection that Epi posits, but I think Ninja made one really good post in defense, and the only thing that sets her defense apart from Black Rocks to me is tone. And having played a few games with Ninja, I will say that I admire her ability to keep it light and bantering at all times, civ or bad. Her tone is fairly level & light regardless. So if you remove tone from the equation (as was not done with Cobalt), her defense it not all that.

I'm a little confused here. Are you saying her one really good post wasn't enough of a defense? Or that the tone is what made it a good post?

SVS, I am absolutely willing to listen to your fresh perspective. I agree with you that the Big Talkers (that's a compliment, not an insult) have some pretty well established suspect pools that they have been perusing doggedly, but just because they are the most vocal does not mean they are the only thoughts out there. I, for one, am generally clueless at this point, and am VERY willing to look outside of the names that have been focused on thus far. I understand how you might feel like a voice in the wilderness, since voices like mine have been pretty silent..... but I'm reading and listening and hoping to be more actively involved (no promises though.... it is ME after all )

Also, re: nimblebobo, I was definitely one of the people who thought her defense post was "good", but that doesn't mean I'm willing to remove her from suspicion. Like you said, she is a player who perhaps more than any other is fully capable of dressing up an otherwise so-so defense in a "so calm and reasonable and light-hearted that I couldn't possibly be bad!"- tone in a way that can be very convincing. So, while I *did* find her post reasonable and balanced (generally qualities that I associate more with civ than with mafia) she is not entirely exonerated. For instance, I still think the (relatively minor) point that Golden raised a loooong time ago about baddies wanting to make sure they have members in each of the night poll options was very very astute, and that is one major mark against Ninja that she can't sweet-talk her way out of; it just is what it is and I need to make up my mind about whether that piece of evidence is significant or not.

I keep promising to look at Ninja's RR posts (where she was very Bad Baddie and would totally have gone undetected if I hadn't essentially had a role check on her) and try to articulate what it is about them that her posts in this game are reminding me of. I don't think I have time to do it today..... maybe tonight if the insomnia is happening? Maybe tomorrow? Ugh. I'm such a slacker in this game.

i don't have time to analyze, but i do have time for a little game-relevant banter. who's around right now to be interrogated?

I'm around, but we're in lylo in the other game. And I'm on my ipad.

So no, I am not ready to be interrogated.

At work now but will be around in about 4 hours.

fingersplints wrote:Bass absolutely could be on Team Webber. I was willing to reconsider my original pings on him , but I don't think he has acted any less suspicious over time.

I don't understand what you mean here. Your original pings were of him being bad, right? Did you mean to say he hasn't acted any more suspicious?

Scotty wrote:

fingersplints wrote:Bass absolutely could be on Team Webber. I was willing to reconsider my original pings on him , but I don't think he has acted any less suspicious over time.

I don't understand what you mean here. Your original pings were of him being bad, right? Did you mean to say he hasn't acted any more suspicious?

My original pings were of him being suspicious and possibly LC's teammate. No, I didn't mean to say he hasn't acted any more suspicious. I meant to say what I said. He has continued to act suspicious but not for the reasons I originally thought.

@ SVS - I am looking into your ninja points. I think her responses sounded good, but as has been pointed out, they usually do.

i have a bit more time to be thorough now. we have the makings of a Bass landslide vote, so i am going to look into his posts to ensure that i am comfortable with that. the Cobalt lynch of the last day phase proceeded much too easily, and the fact that it's happening again this phase with Bass is a little disconcerting.

fingersplints wrote:@ SVS - I am looking into your ninja points. I think her responses sounded good, but as has been pointed out, they usually do.

what is your stance on ninja right now?

My vote is worth three.

Where oh where shall I place it?

Epignosis wrote:My vote is worth three.

Where oh where shall I place it?

if that's the case you can certainly add some excitement to the current tally situation. town and mafia alike are going to feel no pressure voting for Bass right now regardless of his alignment. you should help change that by voting for someone else. i don't much care who.