So I read through your post and can appreciate you looking at her through a non-baddie lens since I feel like it's hard for me to extract myself from the mud.
I do apologize, I was slightly buzzed and was frustrated that my ISOs of Golden voters weren't yielding me any striking evidence and wanted something of substance that stood out as bad to me. I can't look back at my post and say 'well maybe in a different mindset I would find this case as looking manipulative in a way that I want to see', but I'll take your word for it.
I see the innocence in her posts, and her calmness in answering my heat has been nothing short of satisfactory at a surface level. But you are looking at her as if she can do no wrong, which frankly is no different than what I was doing on the other end of the spectrum. I feel like we need someone to look at her with an unbiased lens, but I'm not sure who would be able to do that.
As for the bandwagon, I don't really know how or why that happened so fast, but apparently people seem compelled with something about the arguments against Sorsha.
I do ask that if you DO vote for Sorsha, don't just say you agree, but say what points you agree with.
For the record, I'm still open to changing my vote back to TinyBubbles, and appreciate more discussion of opinions on this matter.
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:One point that I'd expand on is this: I think baddie players are more likely to post B/S in this thread than non-baddies even with two baddie teams present. They can merely baddie-hunt like the civilians/neutrals, but there's more to their situation than that. What do I mean?
They are a team. Their priorities are different.
Here are the priorities for civilians and pro-civ neutrals:
1. Lynch baddies
/end
Here are the priorities for baddies of either team:
1. Lynch players that aren't members of their team, regardless of alignment
2. Lynch baddies of the other team
~~~
Because of that top priority for baddies, they'll be more likely to gleefully join errant bandwagons (any bandwagon for a player not on their team) even if it means they have to manufacture a fake reason for doing so.
On the flipside, I find this inconclusive when people have time constraints, and get home to find that what they wanted to say had already been said; so instead of cluttering up the thread more than they have to, they choose to agree and vote on the bandwagon. I don't tend to like this approach however, because how do we know they actually agree with the cases posed or are just joining the wagon for shits?
When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather;
not screaming like the people in his car
MovingPictures07 wrote:As to Boomslang, Jay... Can you see his exchange from you coming from a neutral perspective?
Maybe. I can see players of any alignment responding incredulously to a logical breakdown like the one I employed. I've mulled over it for a night and at this point the most troubling Boomslang post in that exchange is the one Bullzeye highlighted:
Boomslang wrote:I disagree. Now what you need to ask yourself is this: am I bad, or just stupid?
This statement is included somewhere in the Encyclopedia Baddietannica, at least in my experience.
JJJ, can you elaborate what exactly it is you find troubling about this post? What's the baddie mindset? I'm trying to understand it and am just not sure I'm seeing the mindset of a baddie in that post.
It's suspicious at face value. This is reminiscent of a post I made as a baddie in the champs finale that drew a ton of heat. I uttered a sentence that immediately brought the vultures circling: "What do you want from me?"
I was exasperated by constant pressure from a single source (coolkid in that case) and it drove me to saying something that was honestly terrible at face value. I don't necessarily think Boomslang was "exasperated" by me, but I think the constant pressure I was applying led to this crack -- I don't see this post coming from a civilian or neutral mindset.
Moreover, I'd have felt a lot better if he'd have simply granted the mistake after I pointed it out. Something like "oh yeah I see what you mean, I dunno why I was thinking that." Instead he argued me to the tooth that it did make sense, seemingly to dissuade the notion that there was a mistake. That's how baddies respond when accused of things that seem nitpicky -- they get incredibly frustrated and try to hammer home their true meaning without any honest-seeming resignation.
This just happened to me; I'm probably sensitive to it.
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Mafia Universe
Mafia Championship Finalist, 2015 and 2020 Best Town Player, 2020
Roxy wrote:1.)No. Bc his posts have a tone that does not feel civvie. He has pushed his Boomslang case (I am not the only one who does not see it yet he keeps pushing and pushing) not even trying to look for other suspicions. Though I admit I am not fully caught up. His responses did not help him any bc he keeps trying to insinuate crap into my posts that is not there. Why keep trying to say I am calling everyone who is a high poster bad when I clearly am only calling *him* bad?
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Mafia Universe
Mafia Championship Finalist, 2015 and 2020 Best Town Player, 2020
MovingPictures07 wrote:
...Besides, it's only my opinion. If the baddies decide to kill the player at the top of my rainbow list every time, so be it...
And so it begins. Watchmen all over again.
When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather;
not screaming like the people in his car
aapje wrote:Wow this is a pain to catch up to
I've literally been reading for hours now
First of all congrats BR, hope you have a great day.
I didn't like the sound of the lynch post, the whole situation sounded ominous to me.
What does ISO stand for?
I agree this tidbit at the end is troubling to me -
Long Con wrote:Azura stood before a dark pit, deep in the bowels of the mountain, her chanting growing to a crescendo. When she had finished the spell, a golden, wispy form descended through the ceiling and into the pit, and a low growl emanated forth, and Azura could see a pair of glowing golden eyes from deep within the darkness.
She shuddered in excited ecstasy, and threw a hand forward, fingers splayed. "The Chuddekon is born!"
I am pushing the case because it's the one I feel the most strongly about. I don't care if other players don't see it. I've entertained a number of perspectives on the matter and still feel this way.
He probably won't be lynched at this point because nobody seems to agree with me. So if my baddie strategy is to smear Boomslang, then I suck at it.
Best Townie, Maffies 4, 8 and 9 Best Scum, Maffies 3 Best Moderator, Maffies 8 and 9 Most Valuable Player, Maffies 7 and 9 Best Roleplay, Maffies 4 and 6 Spirit Award, Maffies 9 Hall of Fame inductee, Maffies 4
Mafia Universe
Mafia Championship Finalist, 2015 and 2020 Best Town Player, 2020
With regards to bandwagoning, here's what I'm thinking:
I think bandwagoning is more likely to happen this game, particularly in the early stages, due to the neutral-heavy player base. In fact, neutrals might have the most incentive to baddie hunt.
With that said, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that it would benefit a mafia to appear as though they are neutral, so in conjunction with the desire to get rid of someone not on their team, I still think there is much incentive for baddies to jump onto bandwagons.
Of course, that doesn't stop civilians from bandwagoning, especially if they are low on time, since I've seen civilians make terrible votes, myself included, time and time again.
Roxy wrote:I personally feel boomslang is yet a Neutral. I think JJJ made his points - sure - but imo he is just going for another easy lynch.
This would imply that you found at least one of my points to be inadequate. Please show me. I've tried my best to assess players and come up with reads. If I wanted an "easy" lynch I would have just joined the anti-Golden crusade.
Where did I imply that?
Oh thats right I didn't. You are trying to put something into my post that simply is not there and making my post have a different inflection.
I just think Boomslang would make a horrible recruit. (No offense Boomslang I said the same thing about my own son).
He has not really been in the thread.
You can tell he is not keeping up by looking at his posts.
If he is not around to read or post properly what makes you so sure he has had time to try for a recruitment?
I think you, however, would make an excellent recruit.
you are paying attention to the thread.
You are playing the game and fully reading and posting.
You are under no suspicion but from me.
You have been around to eneter contests for recruitmen
You a good player so you know how to play the same once recruited.
You are pushing neutral easy lynch after lynch.
I actually agree with most of this post, with two caveats:
1) It is equally likely that JJJ has been recruited as a civvie.
2) Why are you discounting the possibility that Boomslang started out as a baddie, as one of the leaders?
1.)No. Bc his posts have a tone that does not feel civvie. He has pushed his Boomslang case (I am not the only one who does not see it yet he keeps pushing and pushing) not even trying to look for other suspicions. Though I admit I am not fully caught up. His responses did not help him any bc he keeps trying to insinuate crap into my posts that is not there. Why keep trying to say I am calling everyone who is a high poster bad when I clearly am only calling *him* bad?
2.) I hope BR and LC do not take offense to this as I hope other players don't as well but do I really think BR would put Boomslang as a recruiter? No I don't. Even if they random'ed the roles I believe there was more than one or two tweaks. I do it in games I host.
I'm not sure I understand your points here, Rox.
1) Jay has unarguably posted more cases and baddie hunted more than practically anyone else in this game. Wouldn't you agree?
2) I think this perspective is very dangerous. We should consider literally every player as a possible recruiter or recruitee.
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I am pushing the case because it's the one I feel the most strongly about. I don't care if other players don't see it. I've entertained a number of perspectives on the matter and still feel this way.
He probably won't be lynched at this point because nobody seems to agree with me. So if my baddie strategy is to smear Boomslang, then I suck at it.
Yo JJJ if you're smearing Boomslang, then I'm smearing Sorsha. Dealio?
When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather;
not screaming like the people in his car
MovingPictures07 wrote:As to Boomslang, Jay... Can you see his exchange from you coming from a neutral perspective?
Maybe. I can see players of any alignment responding incredulously to a logical breakdown like the one I employed. I've mulled over it for a night and at this point the most troubling Boomslang post in that exchange is the one Bullzeye highlighted:
Boomslang wrote:I disagree. Now what you need to ask yourself is this: am I bad, or just stupid?
This statement is included somewhere in the Encyclopedia Baddietannica, at least in my experience.
JJJ, can you elaborate what exactly it is you find troubling about this post? What's the baddie mindset? I'm trying to understand it and am just not sure I'm seeing the mindset of a baddie in that post.
It's suspicious at face value. This is reminiscent of a post I made as a baddie in the champs finale that drew a ton of heat. I uttered a sentence that immediately brought the vultures circling: "What do you want from me?"
I was exasperated by constant pressure from a single source (coolkid in that case) and it drove me to saying something that was honestly terrible at face value. I don't necessarily think Boomslang was "exasperated" by me, but I think the constant pressure I was applying led to this crack -- I don't see this post coming from a civilian or neutral mindset.
Moreover, I'd have felt a lot better if he'd have simply granted the mistake after I pointed it out. Something like "oh yeah I see what you mean, I dunno why I was thinking that." Instead he argued me to the tooth that it did make sense, seemingly to dissuade the notion that there was a mistake. That's how baddies respond when accused of things that seem nitpicky -- they get incredibly frustrated and try to hammer home their true meaning without any honest-seeming resignation.
This just happened to me; I'm probably sensitive to it.
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks!
Maybe I'll revisit your conversation with him, because I'm struggling to uncover his intentions personally. I still am torn between the two perspectives I espoused earlier, though I've been increasingly thinking he's probably just a neutral in the past cycle.
Devin, Tranq, unfurl, and BWT just jumped onto Sorsha. What do players think of their vote explanations? I'll take a look at them myself and let you all know.
aapje seems content to continue waiting on his baddie hunt, even though it's Day 4 and each team is clearly cemented now, and focus entirely on low posters. I can entirely relate with why he's fixating on them, but does anyone else find this disconcerting?
Roxy wrote:
You have been recruited. I would bet my sweet ass on it.
While anything I say in reply is obvs wifom-y, I'm actually still unrecruited. I have no preference of whether I'm bad or good, I've been applying to all of the recruitment drives, but so far...
And mainly because I'm not feeling so suspicious of either of the main vote getters at the moment.
linkitis: I lost count of how many times I've tried to post. Which gave me a moment to remember that linkitis has a definition on Urban Dictionary. And to then realize that the vast majority of players here probably think it's related to links. And that the majority of players probably do not know it was named after a mafia player (although before he started playing, I think, and possibly before mafia became a thing on LP). And maybe a dozen people in this game remember him (although more folks than in recent games). And that he was a really good player and a cool guy. And a ninja. OK, done rambling and reminiscing now.
As for my thoughts re: Sorsha, I need to mull over what Jay has posted, and re-consider. I legitimately saw Sorsha's behavior as very WIFOM-heavy with regards to Golden, and my general lack of opinion of her whatsoever last night led me to examine her in a harsh light, especially once Scotty analyzed her quotes (something I was intending to do). Thanks to Scotty and Jay for analyzing them under two different operating perspectives.
I am shocked to see how quickly the train has developed, which does give me a bit of pause, but for now I'm still keeping my vote on TinyBubbles. Sorsha is in the bottom half of my Rainbow, and I will keep considering her for my vote.
Alright, here's an exercise. 4 Sorsha votes that were just cast since last night.
What I'm curious from everyone is a ranking of sincerity. Which vote post seems most sincere, considering that player's other content this game? Which seems least sincere?
MovingPictures07 wrote:Roxy and unfurl, I think much of the reason we're consistently having different opinions is largely in part due to approaching the game with very different mindsets, so I'll keep that in mind going forward, and try not to judge either of you too harshly merely for disagreeing.
fair enough
Dom wrote:
unfurl wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Rico, I agree that sideline Azura + voting others to vote for Golden are compatible. Which players come to mind with "wanting him gone from a distance" and playing on the sidelines? For me, I'd say unfurl, TinyBubbles, and aapje.
What do all of you players think?
Seriously MP,wow,
Golden was among the players, that was ok with how Im playing, he did thought I was just being me
why on earth I would want him gone? ask yourself that
you are clearly think Im some mastefull evil mind, or you want others to think that
Why is Golden's opinion infallible? He was not a civilian. He was neutral. While, I am not happy with the result of his lynch-- his word on you doesn't necessarily point to you being civilian. This doesn't make a lick of sense.
Who are you looking at, unfurl? I'm interested.
MP was sort of saying that I wanted Golden dead from the distance, and I didnt, that was my point
I adressed Roxy before that MP and BWT are among people I dont trust, but Im not going to be tunnel vision in that part
I would like to hear more from reywas, as to why he changed his vote from himself to golden? what made him make that move, he never explained it?
I also what to see aapje getting more involve as he promised to do so
I think good points about Sorsha has been brought up, I think Sorsha may know who killed Epig, and she did knew it was not Golden, I think that could had been slip up with the framed part
As a matter of fact Im votting for Sorsha
Spacedaisy wrote:Unfurl, while I wouldn't go so far as to say I trust you, I don't feel as strongly about you, based primarily on the fact people who have played more with you than I have are dismissing my suspicions. But frankly the biggest concern to me is that your attitude in this game seems so vastly different to me than I recall from the few games I have played with you before. I would never have characterized you as snarky or dismissive that I can recall before this. You have always eked very nice. I understand language barrier at times and so forth, but I have just felt like you had a different attitude this game.it is the big thing keeping you on my list right now. But you are not in danger of getting a vote for me immediately, I want to try to keep my mind open.
Like I said befofe it you thought I was snarky, that was not my intention, sometimes I have a dark sense of humour and sometimes it comes the wrong way
birdwithteeth11 wrote:I'm finally all caught up. Unfortunately, I do not have the time to make a lengthy post of any kind. I will say that I agree with a lot of the thoughts on Sorsha, as a potential player who could have tried to put some pressure on Golden while remaining out of the spotlight. So my vote will go to her today. I promise I will be more involved for the next day phase.
MovingPictures07 wrote:Sorsha, I was actually going to pull some quotes, but it seems Scotty has beaten me to the punch!
In short, I suspect you heavily for your lack of activity (though I understand the RL reasons for early on), and then mostly your behavior surrounding Golden. It's very WIFOMy, soft defending him, and perfect for someone wanting to take advantage of Golden but still sitting in the sidelines.
Yup. I was planning to change my vote to Sorsha and just did. Scotty has some compelling arguments in his mega post. But it was a Wilgy post that made me want to vote for Sorsha to begin with. Let me see if I can find it.
Red being the case i find the most interesting, green being the case i felt 'meh' about, and blue being the case that didn't really feel like a case. Why is Boomslang considered a main suspect, exactly?
unfurl wrote:I think good points about Sorsha has been brought up, I think Sorsha may know who killed Epig, and she did knew it was not Golden, I think that could had been slip up with the framed part
As a matter of fact Im votting for Sorsha
Wilgy's eyes widen with horror. His heart begins to ache and his chest tightens. He finds it hard to say, but can finally let out a soft voice as he turns to face everyone.
Unfurl... How did you come to the conclusion... That Sorsha "did knew" that Golden didn't kill Epi? Sorsha even said she wasn't confident in Golden...
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:56 pm
@DrWilgy don't post any more k
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Wilgy's vote is an enigma of science. Philosophers are known to throw their tomes across the auditorium in a fit of frustration after failing to solve its mystery.
insertnamehere wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:50 pm
WTF was up with Wilgy's entire deal?
I will say this- if TinyBubbles does not respond to her heat before 9pm, I will be switching my vote back to her, because that's the MOST evidentially suspicious thing in my mind.
linki @MP- ooo I like this game. It's like Let's Make a Deal. Uhhh, I pick dooooooor 3! Is it a goat, Jerry?!
When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather;
not screaming like the people in his car
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I am pushing the case because it's the one I feel the most strongly about. I don't care if other players don't see it. I've entertained a number of perspectives on the matter and still feel this way.
He probably won't be lynched at this point because nobody seems to agree with me. So if my baddie strategy is to smear Boomslang, then I suck at it.
Yo JJJ if you're smearing Boomslang, then I'm smearing Sorsha. Dealio?
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Mafia Universe
Mafia Championship Finalist, 2015 and 2020 Best Town Player, 2020
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I am pushing the case because it's the one I feel the most strongly about. I don't care if other players don't see it. I've entertained a number of perspectives on the matter and still feel this way.
He probably won't be lynched at this point because nobody seems to agree with me. So if my baddie strategy is to smear Boomslang, then I suck at it.
Yo JJJ if you're smearing Boomslang, then I'm smearing Sorsha. Dealio?
Let's smear each other bb.
I have the peanut butter. Now what.
When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather;
not screaming like the people in his car
MovingPictures07 wrote:Alright, here's an exercise. 4 Sorsha votes that were just cast since last night.
What I'm curious from everyone is a ranking of sincerity. Which vote post seems most sincere, considering that player's other content this game? Which seems least sincere?
MovingPictures07 wrote:Roxy and unfurl, I think much of the reason we're consistently having different opinions is largely in part due to approaching the game with very different mindsets, so I'll keep that in mind going forward, and try not to judge either of you too harshly merely for disagreeing.
fair enough
Dom wrote:
unfurl wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Rico, I agree that sideline Azura + voting others to vote for Golden are compatible. Which players come to mind with "wanting him gone from a distance" and playing on the sidelines? For me, I'd say unfurl, TinyBubbles, and aapje.
What do all of you players think?
Seriously MP,wow,
Golden was among the players, that was ok with how Im playing, he did thought I was just being me
why on earth I would want him gone? ask yourself that
you are clearly think Im some mastefull evil mind, or you want others to think that
Why is Golden's opinion infallible? He was not a civilian. He was neutral. While, I am not happy with the result of his lynch-- his word on you doesn't necessarily point to you being civilian. This doesn't make a lick of sense.
Who are you looking at, unfurl? I'm interested.
MP was sort of saying that I wanted Golden dead from the distance, and I didnt, that was my point
I adressed Roxy before that MP and BWT are among people I dont trust, but Im not going to be tunnel vision in that part
I would like to hear more from reywas, as to why he changed his vote from himself to golden? what made him make that move, he never explained it?
I also what to see aapje getting more involve as he promised to do so
I think good points about Sorsha has been brought up, I think Sorsha may know who killed Epig, and she did knew it was not Golden, I think that could had been slip up with the framed part
As a matter of fact Im votting for Sorsha
Spacedaisy wrote:Unfurl, while I wouldn't go so far as to say I trust you, I don't feel as strongly about you, based primarily on the fact people who have played more with you than I have are dismissing my suspicions. But frankly the biggest concern to me is that your attitude in this game seems so vastly different to me than I recall from the few games I have played with you before. I would never have characterized you as snarky or dismissive that I can recall before this. You have always eked very nice. I understand language barrier at times and so forth, but I have just felt like you had a different attitude this game.it is the big thing keeping you on my list right now. But you are not in danger of getting a vote for me immediately, I want to try to keep my mind open.
Like I said befofe it you thought I was snarky, that was not my intention, sometimes I have a dark sense of humour and sometimes it comes the wrong way
birdwithteeth11 wrote:I'm finally all caught up. Unfortunately, I do not have the time to make a lengthy post of any kind. I will say that I agree with a lot of the thoughts on Sorsha, as a potential player who could have tried to put some pressure on Golden while remaining out of the spotlight. So my vote will go to her today. I promise I will be more involved for the next day phase.
MovingPictures07 wrote:Sorsha, I was actually going to pull some quotes, but it seems Scotty has beaten me to the punch!
In short, I suspect you heavily for your lack of activity (though I understand the RL reasons for early on), and then mostly your behavior surrounding Golden. It's very WIFOMy, soft defending him, and perfect for someone wanting to take advantage of Golden but still sitting in the sidelines.
Yup. I was planning to change my vote to Sorsha and just did. Scotty has some compelling arguments in his mega post. But it was a Wilgy post that made me want to vote for Sorsha to begin with. Let me see if I can find it.
Red being the case i find the most interesting, green being the case i felt 'meh' about, and blue being the case that didn't really feel like a case. Why is Boomslang considered a main suspect, exactly?
*votes Sorsha*
To answer your question MP, I agree with these rankings and I don't like Tranq's dealings here. His content is about as full as my belly right now, and I haven't eaten since last night.
When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather;
not screaming like the people in his car
Hey Rox, I have a few more questions for you, whenever you get a chance.
1) You seemed intent to really baddie hunt going into this phase and I feel like you've been one of the players delivering on this promise, but I'm curious to know even more about what you're thinking. Who are your top 5 (or a similar number, if that's inconvenient) suspects for mafia recruiters/recruitees at this time and why?
2) What are your current thoughts on BWT? How heavily or slightly do you suspect him at this time and why?
3) What are your current thoughts on Boomslang? Have you stated any? If so, I apologize, but I cannot recall yours off hand.
4) What are your current thoughts on unfurl? I know you've come to her defense earlier. What do you think of her Sorsha vote today?
We both approach mafia from very different mindsets, so I think it'll behoove us to engage each other in conversation and consider the other player's perspective. Two heads are better than one!
So far, I feel like we've probably been finding each other shifty for not understanding where the other is coming from, which is what's causing us to eyeball each other (yet not too heavily) off and on during this game.
I'd like to ask unfurl the same first three questions.
MovingPictures07 wrote:Alright, here's an exercise. 4 Sorsha votes that were just cast since last night.
What I'm curious from everyone is a ranking of sincerity. Which vote post seems most sincere, considering that player's other content this game? Which seems least sincere?
MovingPictures07 wrote:Roxy and unfurl, I think much of the reason we're consistently having different opinions is largely in part due to approaching the game with very different mindsets, so I'll keep that in mind going forward, and try not to judge either of you too harshly merely for disagreeing.
fair enough
Dom wrote:
unfurl wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Rico, I agree that sideline Azura + voting others to vote for Golden are compatible. Which players come to mind with "wanting him gone from a distance" and playing on the sidelines? For me, I'd say unfurl, TinyBubbles, and aapje.
What do all of you players think?
Seriously MP,wow,
Golden was among the players, that was ok with how Im playing, he did thought I was just being me
why on earth I would want him gone? ask yourself that
you are clearly think Im some mastefull evil mind, or you want others to think that
Why is Golden's opinion infallible? He was not a civilian. He was neutral. While, I am not happy with the result of his lynch-- his word on you doesn't necessarily point to you being civilian. This doesn't make a lick of sense.
Who are you looking at, unfurl? I'm interested.
MP was sort of saying that I wanted Golden dead from the distance, and I didnt, that was my point
I adressed Roxy before that MP and BWT are among people I dont trust, but Im not going to be tunnel vision in that part
I would like to hear more from reywas, as to why he changed his vote from himself to golden? what made him make that move, he never explained it?
I also what to see aapje getting more involve as he promised to do so
I think good points about Sorsha has been brought up, I think Sorsha may know who killed Epig, and she did knew it was not Golden, I think that could had been slip up with the framed part
As a matter of fact Im votting for Sorsha
Spacedaisy wrote:Unfurl, while I wouldn't go so far as to say I trust you, I don't feel as strongly about you, based primarily on the fact people who have played more with you than I have are dismissing my suspicions. But frankly the biggest concern to me is that your attitude in this game seems so vastly different to me than I recall from the few games I have played with you before. I would never have characterized you as snarky or dismissive that I can recall before this. You have always eked very nice. I understand language barrier at times and so forth, but I have just felt like you had a different attitude this game.it is the big thing keeping you on my list right now. But you are not in danger of getting a vote for me immediately, I want to try to keep my mind open.
Like I said befofe it you thought I was snarky, that was not my intention, sometimes I have a dark sense of humour and sometimes it comes the wrong way
birdwithteeth11 wrote:I'm finally all caught up. Unfortunately, I do not have the time to make a lengthy post of any kind. I will say that I agree with a lot of the thoughts on Sorsha, as a potential player who could have tried to put some pressure on Golden while remaining out of the spotlight. So my vote will go to her today. I promise I will be more involved for the next day phase.
MovingPictures07 wrote:Sorsha, I was actually going to pull some quotes, but it seems Scotty has beaten me to the punch!
In short, I suspect you heavily for your lack of activity (though I understand the RL reasons for early on), and then mostly your behavior surrounding Golden. It's very WIFOMy, soft defending him, and perfect for someone wanting to take advantage of Golden but still sitting in the sidelines.
Yup. I was planning to change my vote to Sorsha and just did. Scotty has some compelling arguments in his mega post. But it was a Wilgy post that made me want to vote for Sorsha to begin with. Let me see if I can find it.
Red being the case i find the most interesting, green being the case i felt 'meh' about, and blue being the case that didn't really feel like a case. Why is Boomslang considered a main suspect, exactly?
*votes Sorsha*
To answer your question MP, I agree with these rankings and I don't like Tranq's dealings here. His content is about as full as my belly right now, and I haven't eaten since last night.
Scotty, I appreciate your response, but I realize I made something unclear.
I myself was not sharing my ranking of them in that post. I believe it was the order in which they posted, but it's at least the order in which I compiled the quotes.
So you do rank them from most to least sincere in that order?
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Roxy, how do you feel about the votes for TinyBubbles?
I have a reason for asking Roxy specifically.
I don't want to answer until I know the reasons. But also fyi I have previously stated my opinion to Bubbles about her andher posts.
Standstill!
The question sort of loses its value if you already know the reason for it. It's a minor point either way so screw it: I wanted to see if you felt Bubbles represented an "easy lynch" akin to your perspectives of Bass and Boomslang and thus gauge your reaction to its hasty development.
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MovingPictures07 wrote:I also think it's dangerous to think that certain types of players are more or less apt to be recruited. We should be cautious of everyone. I, too, have been too closed-minded with regards to this.
Best Townie, Maffies 4, 8 and 9 Best Scum, Maffies 3 Best Moderator, Maffies 8 and 9 Most Valuable Player, Maffies 7 and 9 Best Roleplay, Maffies 4 and 6 Spirit Award, Maffies 9 Hall of Fame inductee, Maffies 4
Mafia Universe
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It was still quite difficult to commit to traditional civilian/mafia reads of everyone given we still have about half of neutrals (right?), but I forced myself to. All players' positions are very subject to change, especially provided the nature of this game, and I'm going to try to keep an open mind to, but also a skeptical eye on, everyone.
I realize I haven't really talked about Sorsha yet, but I was willing to give her time to catch up provided her RL situation, and when I forced myself to think about her under this exercise, I realized she seems to fit the bill very well for recruiter/recruitee. I also find the WIFOM that she projected in the Golden situation to be very tenuous; I believe someone else mentioned this as well (can't remember who, sorry, whoever you are). Add Sorsha to the definite "sidelines" theory I spoke of earlier. What are players' thoughts on Sorsha? Or literally anyone who you feel hasn't been talked about enough yet?
If anyone wants me to elaborate upon any of these reads, I would be more than happy to do so. Most are a combination of the players' content and how genuine I believe that player is in their behavior.
Even better, I hope we can open up discussion on as many players as possible today.
So no high posters have been recruited or are recruited? How very quaint. Do you really think that is possible?
1) BWT's other post content leads me to believe he is being the most sincere in his thoughts, and his post also seemed the most straightforward/blunt.
2) unfurl's reasoning "I think Sorsha knows" seems WIFOMy/odd to me, but I could see it coming from a genuine perspective. I could also see it as an easily manufactured reasoning as well. Not sure what to think of it, since I've been reading unfurl as not genuine for quite some time, so I feel I could use some fresh perspectives on this.
3) Devin has been a habitual bandwagoner this game, which I can see the civilian perspective for (I know he's a busy guy), but I really want to grill him because I think he's been getting by pretty easily. His bandwagon votes, from what I can recall (I can look later once I have more time), would be easy to manufacture. It's easy to just go "Yep, I agree with so and so's post on the matter", which is how he's been posting a lot.
4) Tranq's post is pretty weak, since he didn't even provide reasons for his RGB ranking, as interesting as it was. I hope he can elaborate later.
MovingPictures07 wrote:I also think it's dangerous to think that certain types of players are more or less apt to be recruited. We should be cautious of everyone. I, too, have been too closed-minded with regards to this.
I agree it is why I have brought up JJJ.
I'm all for discussing JJJ; I'm just not seeing any of the points you're making at this time.
Try to convince me as much as you can. Why should I believe JJJ is bad?
nutella wrote:OK, I'll try, but a lot of these are kind of arbitrary. I'm honestly just going to c/p from yours and switch around a bunch of names. Also just to be clear the green end includes people I think are more likely to just be unrecruited (such as myself), rather than specifically civ.
Turnip Head
Russtifinko / Synonym
Spacedaisy
timmer
thellama73
Tranq
DisgruntledPorcupine
DFaraday
aapje
Devin the Omniscient
LoRab
Metalmarsh89
Sorsha
Boomslang
TinyBubbles
Dom
DharmaHelper
reywaS
Meh, this didn't feel like a very helpful exercise, a lot of this is uncertain and subject to change. I had reconsidered Rey's likelihood of baddieness and rescinded my suspicion of him by the end of the previous day, but now I have put him back at the bottom for that recent post of his about not posting after Golden's lynch because that pinged me six ways to sunday.
again no high posters listed as possible baddies. Do you really think that is realistic?
Rox, why are you fixating on high posters? Can't you make the same mirrored argument about low posters?
When I was saying earlier that we should consider everyone as recruited/recruitee, I was including high and low posters. I'm all for discussing them with you, but I personally do not have any strong reason to believe any of the top 5 or so high posters are recruited at this time. You seem to think that Jay is. Do you think any of the others are?
It's entirely possible that no "high" posters are recruited at this time. It's also possible that one is, whether mafia or civilian. Anything is possible. At this time, Metalmarsh89 seems most likely to me as a mafia recruit, as evidenced by my list.
Sorry for the loads of questions, Rox, but I'm really curious to hear your responses if you have the time to address them all.
I have to really return to work now; I've taken over an hour break and have quite a lot more to accomplish today before I can be happy with my productivity.
I'll try to be back before deadline, no promises though.
POST. I see you voted. Any reason you chose the one you did?
not really, it's just the first number so why not start at the beginning
since we are going to cycle through all 5 positions anyway
and I like the number 1 :P
That was my reasoning, copycat. Are you bad?
yes, i'm evil. badder than you could ever suspect! better lynch me now, doo eet.
actually i thought the position 1 also had many protector - ish options, compared to some of the other positions.
llama viewed this with suspicion, asserting that it evidenced some degree of nervousness on Bubbles' part. I think this was a bit of a reach on llama's part to begin with, and I also had a separate reason for feeling differently. In Bullets over Broadway, Bubbles was criticized endlessly for repeatedly claiming aloud to be a good guy. The spoiler below is from that game, the highlighted portion showing the first example of this.
TinyBubbles wrote:Hey all, im alive :o still lurking for the most part because it's honestly kind of intimidating at the start of a mafia game, i hate the thought of wrongly accusing people and there usually is a bunch of new people i am not familiar with, so can't tell if they are being themselves or acting out a role. on the plus side i've finished exams so don't have that stealing my time more for mafia, potentially And i'm a good guy AGAIN for the third time in a row! Which really doesn't help me train my mafia hunting instincts, like they say it takes a thief to catch a thief. Anyway, for what it is worth sloonei and golden are playing a lot like they did in the economics game so far, so i (want?) to believe they are civ. Don't know about the others like long con. Curious about the pm Dom sent like many of you, i would love if we could somehow join together and figure out what they all mean without actually posting them.
This first lynch vote i'm gonna probably bandwagon on the most voted person, since i figure that is marginally better than voting a random. It's a cop out, i know. Don't shoot me.
Btw sorry to see you go DDL! And welcome canucklehead, your first post made me lol
My initial reaction was to assume Bubbles was merely trying something else after seeing where "I'm a good guy!" got her in that game (she really was a good guy). However, I probably shouldn't read this as a distinctly civilian-inclined thing. She could be inclined to make this adjustment as any alignment, so I'll read it null.
DharmaHelper wrote:Llama associates copycats with being bad. Llama is a copycat. Llama is bad.
flawless logic. what do you say llama? dharma did use the "start at the beginning" reasoning before you (or me!)
This might be the sort of nonchalant joke that people have been referring to to describe her in general. Still, if this post is to be called a suspicious one then the implication must be that she is a baddie recruiter. This was Day 0.
TinyBubbles wrote:oh come on, i was only kidding about being bad, i thought it was obvious. if thats a reason to lynch me then this game makes no sense at all!
I am inclined to accept this incredulity as genuine. Did one of the game's only two baddie recruiters jump right into the game and joke aloud "yeah I'm bad lol"? I have my doubts. I also don't think it'd suit the personality I'd associate with TinyBubbles in limited experience playing with her.
DFaraday wrote:Eighteen pages got posted while I was at work yesterday, and about a dozen more today. Whoever said that I don't have commitment to the game because I haven't had a chance to catch up yet rustles my jimmies. I'm sorry I missed the poll, hosts, and I will make every effort to be caught up tonight.
I seemed to have missed it too, damn it for the record i probably wouldn't have voted gman, russ, or golden because they seem to be genuine.
I'd like to know why Bubbles had these stances. I'm not sure what the origins were of her reads on any of the three even if I agreed with them at the time.
Golden wrote:BWT also went awfully quiet when he started taking votes. Like someone who might not want to create any more potential incrimination, possibly.
is this typical of BWT from previous games?
Potential filler, potential soft smear. I don't think Bubbles does this to her team mate, but she might do it to someone else.
TinyBubbles wrote:Hey all i've been reeeeeally busy and just havent had time to read all posts,sorry. i'm willing to change my vote from turniphead to either golden or bass since that's where things seem to be headed.. golden hasn't seemed totally his upfront self like from previous games, it's giving me goosebumps. what's the case against bass though?
Apparently she changed her mind about Golden. I don't know why she changed her mind about Golden. I'd like to know why she changed her mind about Golden.
TinyBubbles wrote:Hey all i've been reeeeeally busy and just havent had time to read all posts,sorry. i'm willing to change my vote from turniphead to either golden or bass since that's where things seem to be headed.. golden hasn't seemed totally his upfront self like from previous games, it's giving me goosebumps. what's the case against bass though?
Bubbles, what do you think about Bass, right now, before being presented with any case?
neutral
She stated her half-willingness to vote either Bass or Golden "since that's where things seem going". Her read on Bass was... brief.
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I perceived the Day 1 duel between Epignosis and Golden to be neutral-neutral, which is an uninspired read because nearly every interaction on Day 1 was neutral-neutral. This game is unique though, and I think a perspective of neutral-neutral -- one that is distinctly espoused as a read -- is akin to reading an interaction as civilian-civilian in a more typical game. In this regard I understand S~V~S's perspective about Epi in the context of the Day 1 discussion.
I don't think this reflects poorly on Golden, but I understand why S~V~S is pursuing this angle.
That's fair enough; I understand why she feels the way she does as well. I just am trying to help her see it from another perspective, since Golden's posts have just been oozing sincerity to me, and I feel he is being over scrutinized over other players.
golden always seems to attract a lot of enmity in every game, i feel like it's because he's just a good player that can "play" at mafia/civ equally well, better than most. it's ironically kind of a disadvantage, he has to work at convincing people of his civ ness more than most, i remember reading some time ago he should be lynched early just to be safe, which isn't fair.
i might vote him anyway despite what i said, because i don't have much info to go on at all with bass.
She is at least quite honest about her own read on Bass -- it doesn't exist. She waffles around a bit on Golden. The initial highlighted point is sound though. I do like that she has this in her thought process somewhere, because I did too.
TinyBubbles wrote:damn it, i just can't vote golden again. i don't care if he's a baddie or not, it feels like rejecting a friend. he's totally right about him and other talkative players like MP and epi getting heat just for talking, rather than for the content of their posts. it isn't right,and the game would be dead in the water without their input, i don't think anyone should be punished for posting a lot, even though it obviously makes them a bigger target.
hope you have a good trip golden! i wont vote you out though!!!
and i know my own arguments are flipping back and forth but thats what happens when you get emotionally invested in a game like this ><
voting rey on golden's testimony
Wild flip-flops are hard to comprehend (hi MP), but they aren't necessarily bad-indicative. The highlighted portions trouble me a lot more than the flip-flop itself.
Yellow = I completely agree, but then why...
Orange = ...does this perspective directly conflict with your prior assertions that "Golden didn't seem himself"? That'd have to be an observation made about the content of his posts.
TinyBubbles wrote:i don't think golden is a baddie, i think he wants to cut his losses before he goes on holiday soon, and not have this lingering over his head. granted the self vote looks suspicious but i dont believe golden would use it as a tactic, he's always defended himself through his words before.
what's the case against boom? is there a way to read all his posts together?
TinyBubbles wrote:quick question: is there a pic of the last poll?
and GUYS im not being nonchalant or whatever you think, canucklehead you're wrong im not trying to fly under the radar of the whole golden thing, on the contrary im trying to post more cause i dont want my participation score to drop more. i am admittedly behind on the suspicious posts so thats why i havent been answering them as youd expect, really its just the tone of the posts that is putting me off i hate getting into arguments, it just fucking feels horrible and i get enough of that in real life. i'm not trying to create drama , want to keep it to the point, but its already 4am and im lagging behind, hopefully tomorrow i'll have something more constructive to say. please bare with me i am trying to be a part of it.
I believe you when you say you're trying. Hang in there, you'll have lots to talk about tonight if you show up in time. Please show up in time and help me/us sort this out.
~~~
Bubbles is more suspicious than Sorsha. I'll consider her as a candidate for my vote. My biggest trepidations are these:
1.) I don't think she's a recruiter, so the "reasons" to suspect her at the earliest stage of the game don't apply.
2.) She is suspected in every game she plays. Normally I stand in her defense because I think the reasoning is poor or easy, but in this case I see enough reason for concern that I am not so inclined. Hopefully she posts soon.
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MovingPictures07 wrote:Alright, here's an exercise. 4 Sorsha votes that were just cast since last night.
What I'm curious from everyone is a ranking of sincerity. Which vote post seems most sincere, considering that player's other content this game? Which seems least sincere?
MovingPictures07 wrote:Roxy and unfurl, I think much of the reason we're consistently having different opinions is largely in part due to approaching the game with very different mindsets, so I'll keep that in mind going forward, and try not to judge either of you too harshly merely for disagreeing.
fair enough
Dom wrote:
unfurl wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Rico, I agree that sideline Azura + voting others to vote for Golden are compatible. Which players come to mind with "wanting him gone from a distance" and playing on the sidelines? For me, I'd say unfurl, TinyBubbles, and aapje.
What do all of you players think?
Seriously MP,wow,
Golden was among the players, that was ok with how Im playing, he did thought I was just being me
why on earth I would want him gone? ask yourself that
you are clearly think Im some mastefull evil mind, or you want others to think that
Why is Golden's opinion infallible? He was not a civilian. He was neutral. While, I am not happy with the result of his lynch-- his word on you doesn't necessarily point to you being civilian. This doesn't make a lick of sense.
Who are you looking at, unfurl? I'm interested.
MP was sort of saying that I wanted Golden dead from the distance, and I didnt, that was my point
I adressed Roxy before that MP and BWT are among people I dont trust, but Im not going to be tunnel vision in that part
I would like to hear more from reywas, as to why he changed his vote from himself to golden? what made him make that move, he never explained it?
I also what to see aapje getting more involve as he promised to do so
I think good points about Sorsha has been brought up, I think Sorsha may know who killed Epig, and she did knew it was not Golden, I think that could had been slip up with the framed part
As a matter of fact Im votting for Sorsha
Spacedaisy wrote:Unfurl, while I wouldn't go so far as to say I trust you, I don't feel as strongly about you, based primarily on the fact people who have played more with you than I have are dismissing my suspicions. But frankly the biggest concern to me is that your attitude in this game seems so vastly different to me than I recall from the few games I have played with you before. I would never have characterized you as snarky or dismissive that I can recall before this. You have always eked very nice. I understand language barrier at times and so forth, but I have just felt like you had a different attitude this game.it is the big thing keeping you on my list right now. But you are not in danger of getting a vote for me immediately, I want to try to keep my mind open.
Like I said befofe it you thought I was snarky, that was not my intention, sometimes I have a dark sense of humour and sometimes it comes the wrong way
birdwithteeth11 wrote:I'm finally all caught up. Unfortunately, I do not have the time to make a lengthy post of any kind. I will say that I agree with a lot of the thoughts on Sorsha, as a potential player who could have tried to put some pressure on Golden while remaining out of the spotlight. So my vote will go to her today. I promise I will be more involved for the next day phase.
MovingPictures07 wrote:Sorsha, I was actually going to pull some quotes, but it seems Scotty has beaten me to the punch!
In short, I suspect you heavily for your lack of activity (though I understand the RL reasons for early on), and then mostly your behavior surrounding Golden. It's very WIFOMy, soft defending him, and perfect for someone wanting to take advantage of Golden but still sitting in the sidelines.
Yup. I was planning to change my vote to Sorsha and just did. Scotty has some compelling arguments in his mega post. But it was a Wilgy post that made me want to vote for Sorsha to begin with. Let me see if I can find it.
Red being the case i find the most interesting, green being the case i felt 'meh' about, and blue being the case that didn't really feel like a case. Why is Boomslang considered a main suspect, exactly?
*votes Sorsha*
To answer your question MP, I agree with these rankings and I don't like Tranq's dealings here. His content is about as full as my belly right now, and I haven't eaten since last night.
Scotty, I appreciate your response, but I realize I made something unclear.
I myself was not sharing my ranking of them in that post. I believe it was the order in which they posted, but it's at least the order in which I compiled the quotes.
So you do rank them from most to least sincere in that order?
Oh then that's coincidental because yes, I like this order.
unfurl has actually been in the discussions, albeit lightly but genuinely. BWT hasn't really posted anything of note in a while, but timing issues are a thing I understand, and his post also comes off as reasoned. Devin I could go either way on. He hasn't posted many reads of anyone that I can remember at this time, so I''l;l probably need to look at him soon. Tranq I just don't get here. He's my big ????
When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather;
not screaming like the people in his car
Sorsha wrote:Thats a good question Wilgy.. was it a frame or was it the result of a redirect (Ahriman), target switch (Master of Ancient Arts), switching three roles powers (Chaos Dancer) or a repel of kill to the Magnetarch?
Do you think Golden was framed Wigly? And why did you vote for me? Also, what are your thoughts on the day ending early and no night?
Also, good dance around my question here, I feel like you slipped though. If Epig's death was simply a frame, I think you would be pursuing those who were going after him. I also think you wouldn't have voted Tiny when the votes were so stacked on Golden. You rose the question of if it could be a redirect. The only peole that can answer that question are the people that cast the kill and the person who caused the redirect. Which one are you Sorsha?
Like I said before, I'm not sure that he was framed. There are a few roles with powers that could have led to epis death and those so adamant that golden killed epi didn't seem to be talking about/ taking those into consideration. Unless I missed it.
Ok, theory craft with me then Sorsha. I would see the uncontrollable redirections as Chaos Dance, and Magnetarch, so I won't bother with those. I don't see Ahriman gaining out of redirecting the night kill onto Epi, and why would Ahriman kill Epi? If Epi was switched with someone via Master of Ancient Arts, who do you think was actually supposed to die?
I welcome any theories or comments about Sorsha's and my exchanges.
With regards to Ahriman redirecting a night kill: I guess it depends on if Ahriman knew it was a NK s/he was being targeted with. He could have just been told to choose a target to deflect all night actions to regardless of the action, I'm not sure how exactly that role would work, if he did know it was a NK then maybe he didn’t trust Epi. I don’t know the answer to “Why kill Epi?” though… I’m not Ahriman so I can’t answer that.
With regards to the Master of Ancient Arts switch, even that player wouldn’t know as he is switching players targets, not roles targets.
Ugh... You arent making this easy. Let me rephrase the question about the Master. If MoAA swapped two people, one of them being Epi, who do you think the other was? Also, I'm still on the fence about voting for Sorsha. Sorry SVS I submitted a vote for you and passed out before I could write anything up. I'll write out something as soon as I'm not busy.
I have no idea. There are over 30 players to choose from, I don't even know where to begin to look at what the moaa would be thinking.
MovingPictures07 wrote:2) unfurl's reasoning "I think Sorsha knows" seems WIFOMy/odd to me, but I could see it coming from a genuine perspective. I could also see it as an easily manufactured reasoning as well. Not sure what to think of it, since I've been reading unfurl as not genuine for quite some time, so I feel I could use some fresh perspectives on this.
It also contradicts something Sorsha said previous...
Unfurl... You are one of my friends...
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:56 pm
@DrWilgy don't post any more k
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Wilgy's vote is an enigma of science. Philosophers are known to throw their tomes across the auditorium in a fit of frustration after failing to solve its mystery.
insertnamehere wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:50 pm
WTF was up with Wilgy's entire deal?
nutella wrote:Dom -- maybe you don't quite have the same idea as what I mean by stream of consciousness post. I obviously don't expect everyone to come in here and ramble endlessly on everything, but I am firmly of the belief that you should say what is on your mind regarding what's going on in the thread/at least in response to a few things. When I catch up I grab posts along the way that I want to quote and respond to (btw this site REALLY needs a multiquote button I am tired of opening tabs and pasting) and make mental notes of whatever else I want to add my thoughts on, and when I write my post I just write off the top of my head and often my ideas evolve within a paragraph. That is what I consider a stream of consciousness style of posting -- posting openly what is on your mind and not being afraid to share your initial thoughts and reactions to stuff. And when something significant like a lynch reveal happens, I always at least acknowledge it. Both you and Rey refused to even comment on Golden's flip, and I am curious why you both were so hesitant to share your kneejerk reactions. If you're not guilty you should not be afraid to speak your mind and openly discuss your honest opinions.
I didn't have time to say what was on my mind? I had spent hours trying to catch up to find the thread was locked... when it became unlocked, I posted what I could and went about my evening. I had things to do, people to see...
I have said what was on my mind. I didn't refuse anything. I have contributed a great deal and your continued insistence that I haven't is, to be honest, tiring.
Sorsha wrote:Thats a good question Wilgy.. was it a frame or was it the result of a redirect (Ahriman), target switch (Master of Ancient Arts), switching three roles powers (Chaos Dancer) or a repel of kill to the Magnetarch?
Do you think Golden was framed Wigly? And why did you vote for me? Also, what are your thoughts on the day ending early and no night?
Also, good dance around my question here, I feel like you slipped though. If Epig's death was simply a frame, I think you would be pursuing those who were going after him. I also think you wouldn't have voted Tiny when the votes were so stacked on Golden. You rose the question of if it could be a redirect. The only peole that can answer that question are the people that cast the kill and the person who caused the redirect. Which one are you Sorsha?
This is the one. I found Sorsha's response to Wilgy's unquoted question very odd, and totally agree with his response to her.
Sorry for the lack of original thought here. I have somewhere to be very soon.
This will be the second time I will point put you are voting for other peoples reasons without adding a single original opinion.
Last time I said something it was totes ignored. This one will prob be too.
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Mafia Universe
Mafia Championship Finalist, 2015 and 2020 Best Town Player, 2020
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Wilgy's vote is an enigma of science. Philosophers are known to throw their tomes across the auditorium in a fit of frustration after failing to solve its mystery.
insertnamehere wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:50 pm
WTF was up with Wilgy's entire deal?
Best Townie, Maffies 4, 8 and 9 Best Scum, Maffies 3 Best Moderator, Maffies 8 and 9 Most Valuable Player, Maffies 7 and 9 Best Roleplay, Maffies 4 and 6 Spirit Award, Maffies 9 Hall of Fame inductee, Maffies 4
Mafia Universe
Mafia Championship Finalist, 2015 and 2020 Best Town Player, 2020
Caution to everyone who's posted a rainbow in this game: I wouldn't play them like a slow-moving fluid. Any purple/blue ought to be able to become a red at the snap of a finger. Recruitment, man.
Best Townie, Maffies 4, 8 and 9 Best Scum, Maffies 3 Best Moderator, Maffies 8 and 9 Most Valuable Player, Maffies 7 and 9 Best Roleplay, Maffies 4 and 6 Spirit Award, Maffies 9 Hall of Fame inductee, Maffies 4
Mafia Universe
Mafia Championship Finalist, 2015 and 2020 Best Town Player, 2020
Best Townie, Maffies 4, 8 and 9 Best Scum, Maffies 3 Best Moderator, Maffies 8 and 9 Most Valuable Player, Maffies 7 and 9 Best Roleplay, Maffies 4 and 6 Spirit Award, Maffies 9 Hall of Fame inductee, Maffies 4
Mafia Universe
Mafia Championship Finalist, 2015 and 2020 Best Town Player, 2020
Can you see his exchange from you coming from a neutral perspective?
[-Mass Effect Mafia banner-]
And so it begins. Watchmen all over again.
Also just to be clear the green end includes people I think are more likely to just be unrecruited (such as myself), rather than specifically civ.
more for mafia, potentially 
for the record i probably wouldn't have voted gman, russ, or golden because they seem to be genuine.
