A Mafia of Unfortunate Events [END GAME]

[Epignosis]

I hope that Epi's scum game is half as good as he says it is!!

I don't have a "scum game."

You probably do, just don't know it yet

No. I don't.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I hope that Epi's scum game is half as good as he says it is!!

I don't have a "scum game."

You probably do, just don't know it yet

No. I don't.

*cough*

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpost. ... ostcount=2

[Golden]

I'm excited to understand this site's meta more where I can start to understand roles more - I didn't have a single guess to who was what role by the end of Monkey Island and I've found the lack of information makes me feel very very lost, but I'm hoping that changes pretty soon!!

You!

You're the guy who got me lynched on mafiascum but you couldn't explain why I was scummy.

I got lynched, was town, and you were immediately replaced and I never learned why you thought I was mafia. Quite annoyed with you, I was.

In fairness, I was probably shit at vanilla mafia at the time.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=4955712

To be fair, you look pretty town in retrospect but holy shit have I mislynched some people for horrible reasons in my day so at least you have company, right...?

We are two mariners
Our ship's sole survivors
In this belly of a whale
It's ribs are ceiling beams
It's guts are carpeting
I guess we have some time to kill

Nacho and epi confirmed mafia scummates

Golden does get the context of the song. Shame on him.

The narrator in the song is Jack, and the other mariner is Nacho.

Listen to the song. Good stuff.

What you get up to inside a manatee is none of my business.

Thanks for clarifying that it's Jack and Nacho who are the confirmed scummates, though!

PS I got linki.

[Epignosis]

I hope that Epi's scum game is half as good as he says it is!!

I don't have a "scum game."

You probably do, just don't know it yet

No. I don't.

*cough*

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpost. ... ostcount=2

[Golden]

I'm up to LC's questions.

It seems obvious that Klaus should check Olaf. Apologies if I'm repeating questions, but,

Host, does Klaus lose a shot if he is blocked or does he keep it for future use?

Can Hector save himself?

Does Dr Montgomery protect against kills only or all negative effects?

What happens in the event of a tie where Justice Strauss's vote is not on one of those who is tied?

Does the game end when Ishmael reaches more than 50%, or does he and his team win after that point even if they die? Does he deprive other factions of their win? (sounds like, from other responses, some of these may already be answered)

[Marco]

Greetings. Have people started killing each other already?

[insertnamehere]

Greetings. Have people started killing each other already?

Only with kindness!

(It took me almost an hour to come up with that.)

[Long Con]

Greetings. Have people started killing each other already?

Only with kindness!

(It took me almost an hour to come up with that.)

Totally worth the hour.

Marco, I fixed your sig GIF already... you like skippy?

LC is giving me a feeling of being on the fence. Too lazy to ISO it to be sure, but that was the gut feeling.

Oh, I am definitely on the fence. Maybe I'll see something that will get me off.

...not like that

[Long Con]

I hope that Epi's scum game is half as good as he says it is!!

I don't have a "scum game."

You probably do, just don't know it yet

No. I don't.

*cough*

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpost. ... ostcount=2

The GIF is quite savoury, but I can't see the link... you see, I'm banned from that site.

[Marmot]

I'm feeling rather savory.

[Marco]

I haven't yet started catching up or looking into roles. How much time in this dayphase by the way?

Greetings. Have people started killing each other already?

Only with kindness!

(It took me almost an hour to come up with that.)

You're a monster. I hope you're happy.

[Marco, I fixed your sig GIF already... you like skippy?

Yes, please. Gimme.

[Marmot]

I haven't yet started catching up or looking into roles. How much time in this dayphase by the way?

Greetings. Have people started killing each other already?

Only with kindness!

(It took me almost an hour to come up with that.)

You're a monster. I hope you're happy.

[Marco, I fixed your sig GIF already... you like skippy?

Yes, please. Gimme.

~25 more hours or so.

[Marco]

I haven't yet started catching up or looking into roles. How much time in this dayphase by the way?

Greetings. Have people started killing each other already?

Only with kindness!

(It took me almost an hour to come up with that.)

You're a monster. I hope you're happy.

[Marco, I fixed your sig GIF already... you like skippy?

Yes, please. Gimme.

~25 more hours or so.

How long is Day 0 supposed to be?

[Long Con]

We've been in Day 1 since DFaraday made his post where people go east to Lousy Lane (a post which, I will add, was an enjoyable read. Quite nice.).

[Sorsha]

I haven't yet started catching up or looking into roles. How much time in this dayphase by the way?

Greetings. Have people started killing each other already?

Only with kindness!

(It took me almost an hour to come up with that.)

You're a monster. I hope you're happy.

[Marco, I fixed your sig GIF already... you like skippy?

Yes, please. Gimme.

~25 more hours or so.

How long is Day 0 supposed to be?

It's actually day 1... you missed day 0

[Glorfindel]

Unfinished business:

I'll be defending Glorfindel too unless I catch him unwilling to lie about something.

I'm sorry, my dear friend... I'm probably a little slow at the moment (in the frantic lead up to the holiday season) but could you please explain for me what you meant by your remark above? I assure you that I've taken no offence at it and I trust you will take none for me asking - I just want to be certain I understood what you meant

[DFaraday]

Dfaraday.. will you be having a polls thread?

I can...

But since I hate compiling voting records, I'll commission a special end of game banner for anyone who volunteers to put voting records into an easily copy-and-pasteable format for me.

[sprityo]

@Quin, i was referring to i can see how you could use someone having blind trust as a receipt later on if one of them flips bad. So i said that would be one of the few things day 0 could really offer outside of role claiming.

[Long Con]

Unfinished business:

I'll be defending Glorfindel too unless I catch him unwilling to lie about something.

I'm sorry, my dear friend... I'm probably a little slow at the moment (in the frantic lead up to the holiday season) but could you please explain for me what you meant by your remark above? I assure you that I've taken no offence at it and I trust you will take none for me asking - I just want to be certain I understood what you meant

You know, it is a weird damn thing to say. Didn't realize it fully until now.

Hope you are willing to lie about something, Glor!

[Quin]

@Quin, i was referring to i can see how you could use someone having blind trust as a receipt later on if one of them flips bad. So i said that would be one of the few things day 0 could really offer outside of role claiming.

Oh, okay. Your wording made it sound like you thought I had info or something, so I was confused.

[Quin]

Unfinished business:

I'll be defending Glorfindel too unless I catch him unwilling to lie about something.

I'm sorry, my dear friend... I'm probably a little slow at the moment (in the frantic lead up to the holiday season) but could you please explain for me what you meant by your remark above? I assure you that I've taken no offence at it and I trust you will take none for me asking - I just want to be certain I understood what you meant

You know, it is a weird damn thing to say. Didn't realize it fully until now.

Hope you are willing to lie about something, Glor!

It's a reference to Mad Max. They caught him out because he refused to answer as to whether he was bad or not. Knowing his reasoning for that from our BTSC chat, I'm against pursuing that avenue to get a read on Glorf. Purely personal, before anyone gets any bright ideas.

[Long Con]

Well, shit.... Glorfindel, are you bad in this game?

[a2thezebra]

This is the wrong thread
But I am positively
baked and that gives me an excuse to not worry about the syllable count

[a2thezebra]

I will be catching
up in due time for I know
that my contribution is currently lacking

[Long Con]

Damn, yo, zebra is
Performing some mind-bending
Cross-mojonation

[Quin]

Hey, I am alive!
This is a pleasant surprise
Refrigerator

[Golden]

It's bad enough that
I now think in haiku, but
you all bring it here?

[Glorfindel]

Aaahh, welcome back my friends to the 'Glorfindel Hour'

I've read the recent posts in this game and refuse any longer to be exploited as a potential distraction any further this game by certain players for their own ends. I will deal with this matter right here, right now!

By way of background (for those of you who were not involved) in my last game here (Mad Max) I was asked by Jay to directly and explicitly respond to a series of questions that he put to me that amounted to a declaration of my alignment in that game. His questions were prompted by statements that I'd made in previous games to the effect that I would not lie if asked a direct question as to my alignment in any Mafia game. I have included both his questions and my response to them here for your information.

Spoiler: show

Glorfindel, I still need answers to these questions:

1. Are you bad?

2. Are you a member of a team that killed anyone in this group: MovingPictures07, MacDougall, motel room?

I'm going to adjust the first question.

1. Are you a member of the team in this Mafia game called the Skags?

Please still answer both.

Thank you Jay for your patience in awaiting my reply to your questions. I now ask your indulgence one more time - to grant me the courtesy of reading my response carefully and thoughtfully before jumping to any conclusions. I thank you sincerely in advance for your courtesy in this regard.

It's been six days and nights now and things look grim for us and it's in this context that you ask me these questions. Though you may deny it, the truth is that these questions are NOT about my role in this game, they speak directly and unequivocally to my personal character.

In posts I've made in earlier games on this site (and others) I have (somewhat naively) traded on my personal integrity and honesty in never having lied about my alignment in any Mafia game I've ever played. My protestations however have been to no avail and have gone almost completely unheeded. And now, as this game draws to a bitter end, you (someone whose respect I genuinely cherish) come to me asking me to confirm my alignment.

If I recall correctly, my approach (as referred to above) was a topic of discussion between the two of us and Epi in the Town BTSC Chat last game (The Garden of Peaches). In our conversation, you or Epi (I can't recall now who) asked me to consider what that might mean in future games I play for the other members of a non-Town team (and specifically Mafia teams I suppose) of which I may find myself a part. The two of you challenged me to consider the price of my approach with respect to the enjoyment of others who play these games and whose experience of them may be seriously diminished by the selfishness of my approach. I did consider your points carefully and find myself left in a dilemma in respect of my playing Mafia games in the future.

It is for this reason, that I am not going to avoid or dance around your questions. I simply categorically refuse to answer them because to do so, would continue to perpetuate what I now fear is a bad approach to these games on my behalf. When I say that I refuse to answer them, let me be absolutely explicit here, I mean not now and not ever again. I trust you will understand what I've tried to explain here in all sincerity. I accept that some more cynical minds will question why I've taken this stance right now, in this game and whether it wouldn't be easier for me to simply answer your questions and adopt my new approach next game. To me, this is a moral question. If I am unable to stand by my principles in a time when (it appears) it counts the most, then when can I?

As for this game, I'd ask you, my friend to apply the same measure to me that you would to everyone else. Consider my actions and my comments throughout this game and if you find them wanting, then by all means, you should vote for me. If however you find they are reasonable under what you believe to have been my circumstances and ability, then you should look elsewhere.

Whilst (as I indicated in the post above) my decision to adopt this approach was made independent of my alignment in that game, I'm pretty sure only Jay actually understood what I meant there and every other player interpreted my response as simply a feeble and expedient means of dodging Jay's questions for that game.

As I said in the coloured section of that post, I will no longer declare my alignment in any game I play on this site irrespective of my alignment then, now or in the future. Let me be crystal clear about this - if you are uncomfortable with me taking this approach or unwilling to accept my adopting it, then you should vote to remove me from this game, AND the next game AND the one after that because this is a matter of deeply held principle to me upon which I will not compromise.

[Golden]

I like that a lot glorf. I have no problem with you not making any alignment declaration - very smart play to avoid manipulation.

[Jackofhearts2005]

@Glor

Forgive me.

What deep moral principles, exactly, cause you to not be able to claim your alignment?

[Long Con]

Playing Mafia while being unwilling to lie is like playing futbol/soccer while being unwilling to kick the ball. Lying is what the game is about; there is no moral issue.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Playing Mafia while being unwilling to lie is like playing futbol/soccer while being unwilling to kick the ball. Lying is what the game is about; there is no moral issue.

That's what I was afraid of.

I think a better metaphor would be playing Call of Duty but refusing to shoot anyone because you are ethically against killing someone else. But you're okay with leading them into a claymore mine trap.

The ethical dilemma doesn't apply because you are not killing people. You are playing a game. Plus, you're splitting hairs with not shooting people but being perfectly happy to lead them to their deaths. Additionally, you're going to tick off your teammates and possibly offend your opponents by not playing the game to the best of your ability.

So too, refusing to lie while being willing to decive is trying to find a loophole in morality. And nobody is going to consider you dishonest for lying in mafia as it is an essential mechanic to the game.

[Dom]

I don't see the merit in the discussion.

[sig]

It'll be very clear if glor is mafia. He is making it a little bit more diffucult this game, since civ glor would usually say but we will see.

[Snow Dog]

Sorry to be so absent. This pre Christmas time is so busy. So many pages to read to catch up. Not sure I can manage it. I'll try to be involved more.

[Marco]

We've been in Day 1 since DFaraday made his post where people go east to Lousy Lane (a post which, I will add, was an enjoyable read. Quite nice.).

I haven't yet started catching up or looking into roles. How much time in this dayphase by the way?

Greetings. Have people started killing each other already?

Only with kindness!

(It took me almost an hour to come up with that.)

You're a monster. I hope you're happy.

[Marco, I fixed your sig GIF already... you like skippy?

Yes, please. Gimme.

~25 more hours or so.

How long is Day 0 supposed to be?

It's actually day 1... you missed day 0

The Day 0 in the title threw me off.

[Soneji]

I hope that Epi's scum game is half as good as he says it is!!

Why exactly would you wish this, if you were town? You can like a challenge but in the end its a competition where you want to emerge victorious, there is no well-wishing to be had.

While you gave the reasoning of Christmas prep for your dropoff in contribution, you've gone from full scale analysis to majority fluff.

Ok, so I read everything. I voted east because I wanted to and am satisfied to see it winning.

That was a lot of pages of discussing Snow Dog's statement about not reading his role card. I thought not reading one's role card would be a foolish personal decision but it wouldn't be a scum tell in my mind. And I didn't find anything particularly useful in the back and forth to help identify any scum either, it seemed a lot more about playstyle influenced conversation than anyone trying to manipulate anything. I think the people who we should look at are probably the people who were reading it and not commenting or committing to any stance. They are the ones much more likely to be scum, because scum love letting civs go after each other over stupid playstyle arguments, it saves them a lot of work.

Just my two cents. Going to work now. Third shift, fun fun fun...

Spacedaisy's point of view here mirrors my own.

So, who are those people?

There are many such people. However, it helps to remove some of the names from consideration for Day 1. New Jack City losing his shit over Snow Dog strikes me as earnest and genuine, for instance (plus I wouldn't vote for him today anyway). Did either Mafia really think no one was going to come in (like I did) and explain the Island Monkey business and show that Snow Dog shouldn't be lynched Day 1 for such a ludicrous reason? Of course they didn't. I will thus likely be voting someone who stood on the sidelines while that uproar was taking place rather than vote for one of the combatants.

MM stirred the pot on Snow Dog and then left it to boil. MM was on Monkey Island, so I question his reaction to Snow Dog's little joke.

One counterpoint I would make is that it was just Day 0, so it's not as strong a viewpoint as it would be were it a later, meatier game day.

What exactly is not as strong a viewpoint?

In regards to the bolded, if they saw it coming, it would be easy for one of them to act first and try to gain town cred by playing the voice of reason. I'm not much of the opinion that mafia would avoid talking about the Snow Dog situation given it was day 0 and the likelihood of a SD lynch happening D1 were very slim(Wilgy didn't get lynched in Monkey Island).

Mafia can like letting civs go at each other but they also like putting easy suspicion on aggressive townies.



Zebra to me this game comes off as trying to push certain angles where none exist really. Snow Dog's claim of not reading his role naturally came off as a joke to anyone in Monkey Island but Zebra argued for what he did as some baiting tactic, with a catch-all pass to be scummy if you can claim or have it claimed that you were just luring out mafia.

First read - zebra is town. I love the way he is deconstructing DDL and Jacks arguments around Snow Dog, despite the much easier route being to do what I did and say 'Snow was not 'lying', he was just engaging in referential banter'.

The easy route doesn't allow you to paint people as scum. For all the angles Zebra expects DDL and Jack to have considered, at a time when no decision or claim can even be close to final, she overlooks angles herself like culture clash and approaches their statements as definitive in terms of Snow Dog being their day one lynch.

I'll be voting Zebra for now.

[insertnamehere]

I hope that Epi's scum game is half as good as he says it is!!

Why exactly would you wish this, if you were town? You can like a challenge but in the end its a competition where you want to emerge victorious, there is no well-wishing to be had.

I assume he hopes that Epi is bad at being scum, in case he has to play against a scum Epi. Not a super sincere case of well-wishing.

[DrWilgy]

Hi everyone!

I'm having trouble keeping up. Someone win my heart and vote.

[Scotty]

I don't wanna talk about Glorf's moral principals.

Look y'all, life is like a box of chocolates mmk? Sometimes you get cherry cordial, and you didn't want cherry cordial. Sometimes you pop an almond in your mouth and you're allergic to almond. Next time just stick to an apple or something that has no chance to let you down.

FUJI APPLE FOR OFFICE 2020

Here's what I wanna talk about: the fires at the beach. Why were there fires at the beach?

And has anyone not checked in yet?

[DFaraday]

I feel like someone asked about Justice Strauss some ways back. To clarify, Justice Strauss can send me a list of all players in the order in which she'd prefer them to be lynched, which can be updated anytime.

[Marmot]

Hi everyone!

I'm having trouble keeping up. Someone win my heart and vote.

If I won your vote, I'd throw it away.

If I won your heart, I'd treasure its beauty.

[Scotty]

Hi everyone!

I'm having trouble keeping up. Someone win my heart and vote.

If I won your vote, I'd throw it away.

If I won your heart, I'd treasure its beauty.

Are you the Donald's Toupeè?

[insertnamehere]

I don't wanna talk about Glorf's moral principals.

Look y'all, life is like a box of chocolates mmk? Sometimes you get cherry cordial, and you didn't want cherry cordial. Sometimes you pop an almond in your mouth and you're allergic to almond. Next time just stick to an apple or something that has no chance to let you down.

FUJI APPLE FOR OFFICE 2020

Here's what I wanna talk about: the fires at the beach. Why were there fires at the beach?

And has anyone not checked in yet?

They don't sleep anymore on the beach.

Cuz of the fire.

[Soneji]

I hope that Epi's scum game is half as good as he says it is!!

Why exactly would you wish this, if you were town? You can like a challenge but in the end its a competition where you want to emerge victorious, there is no well-wishing to be had.

I assume he hopes that Epi is bad at being scum, in case he has to play against a scum Epi. Not a super sincere case of well-wishing.

Makes sense. My half-awake brain was interpreting it more like the phrase "If hes half as good as you say he is, they're in trouble."

[Scotty]

I don't wanna talk about Glorf's moral principals.

Look y'all, life is like a box of chocolates mmk? Sometimes you get cherry cordial, and you didn't want cherry cordial. Sometimes you pop an almond in your mouth and you're allergic to almond. Next time just stick to an apple or something that has no chance to let you down.

FUJI APPLE FOR OFFICE 2020

Here's what I wanna talk about: the fires at the beach. Why were there fires at the beach?

And has anyone not checked in yet?

They don't sleep anymore on the beach.

Cuz of the fire.

That didn't answer my question.

Did you start the fire?

[Marmot]

Hi everyone!

I'm having trouble keeping up. Someone win my heart and vote.

If I won your vote, I'd throw it away.

If I won your heart, I'd treasure its beauty.

Are you the Donald's Toupeè?

Would the Donald's Toupeè do such a thing? I think not!

[Snow Dog]

Besides my role, I haven't read any of the other roles yet. This is true. I intend to fix this.

[Marmot]

Besides my role, I haven't read any of the other roles yet. This is true. I intend to fix this.

I've only read my role and your role.

[Golden]

The easy route doesn't allow you to paint people as scum. For all the angles Zebra expects DDL and Jack to have considered, at a time when no decision or claim can even be close to final, she overlooks angles herself like culture clash and approaches their statements as definitive in terms of Snow Dog being their day one lynch.

I'll be voting Zebra for now.

Their statements were incredibly definitive. DDL said Snow Dog should either be policy lynched if not lying or, if lying, there was a 99% chance of being bad.

JoH listed three possibilities, truthful scum, truthful town, lying scum, but did not consider lying town. That's not 'all the angles zebra expects them to consider'. It was one - and a pretty blatant one at that. It's not hard to look at that list and see JoH as potentially deliberately not considering one option.

Zebra did not (although others did) expect them to consider the 'it's just day zero banter, referencing monkey island' angle, which might be what you would call 'culture clash'. By the way, DDL has been at this site nearly as long as me, and he's an ambassador, so I hardly think his views can be construed as 'culture clash'. He knows what to expect.

And in all of that, I did not see zebra rushing to call either Jack or DDL as scum. She just engaged them in a dialogue about why their perspective was limiting (which it was). I haven't really got a sense of how firmly Jack or DDL have stuck to their guns yet since I haven't finished a catchup, but I'd hope that they'd listen to the many people who (correctly) identified that Snow Dog was referencing Monkey Island.

Also, votes are permanent, so forget 'for now'... you voted zebra.

This is the most suspicious thing I've seen. It's incredibly misrepresentative of what occurred, and it's just a bizarre vote, almost like 'I'm voting zebra because I also experience culture clash at this site, and zebra doesn't seem to consider that'. I'm going to be strongly considering a vote for soneji.