Pikachu Tribe - Day 9

[DharmaHelper]

Can the baddies kill
each other in the night time
If so, we are boned

---

Since we have two lives
It is near impossible
A lynch will be "good"
---

Could it be worthwhile
To kill everyone's first role
And then play the game?

[speedchuck]

Can the baddies kill
each other in the night time
If so, we are boned

---

Since we have two lives
It is near impossible
A lynch will be "good"
---

Could it be worthwhile
To kill everyone's first role
And then play the game?

1. presumably
2. yes
3. If the scum played along. They won't, if they're smart.

[DharmaHelper]

Can the baddies kill
each other in the night time
If so, we are boned

1. presumably

I should clarify
I meant kill their own teammates
New "role" but still "maf"

[speedchuck]

Can the baddies kill
each other in the night time
If so, we are boned

1. presumably

I should clarify
I meant kill their own teammates
New "role" but still "maf"

Oh, I knew what you meant. All of the benefits of bussing with none of the numerical consequences or lynch variables.

We gonna get led by the nose.

[Epignosis]

In addition to the high likelihood that Charlie Pace is a civilian role, there are these:

15: Cecil (Welcome to Night Vale). Each night, you can write a news article to be published in the thread via the host.

This is almost certain to be a civilian role, given its function.

17: Refridgerator (Haiku). Each night, you may choose one player who must post in haiku for the entire following day phase. At least 10 haiku must be posted. Unless the hosts deem that they have failed to meet the haiku requirement sufficiently, no votes cast against that player will count during that day.

At first glance, I felt this role could go either way, but looking at it again, I note that failure to meet the poetry requirement doesn't result in a punishment. Instead, the poetry requirement functions less like a challenge and more like an opportunity for a reward, which seems more suited as a civilian role given the ugly ramifications of it being a mafia role.

Also, why is "refrigerator" spelled incorrectly?

[DharmaHelper]

Can the baddies kill
each other in the night time
If so, we are boned

1. presumably

I should clarify
I meant kill their own teammates
New "role" but still "maf"

Oh, I knew what you meant. All of the benefits of bussing with none of the numerical consequences or lynch variables.

We gonna get led by the nose.

We are so fucked man
This will get confusing fast
This was a haiku

[Epignosis]

The only way that having 2 roles does NOT benefit scum is if we commit to every lynch. Mathematically.

Lynching someone opens them up to lynch or nightkill. It takes us two lynches to kill someone. It takes us TWO lynches. If we mislynch, mafia can kill the mislynchee instantly. Would they do that?

"Of course," Long Con says. "After all, killing someone else would supply a townfirm."

Right. So Mafia will probably finish the job for us. Unless they don't. In the case that our lynched dude is scum, they'll kill someone else. This leads us to kill the dude again, and they can finish the job on that other person, bringing us back to square one.

Basically, for game balance and assurance that mafia won't just wipe the floor with us, both sides will, by nature, double down. Which is dumb, because it means the second roles we are given aren't worth a flying flip darn tootin' skippy, except for a last night action before biting the dust. In addition, the roles of these players that get doubled down on won't be revealed if they get nightkilled (we'll know they aren't scum, but that's all).

AM I MISSING ANYTHING?

By night killing other options, the mafia is providing itself with a chance to grow.

Alignments don't change.

Common sense.

Otherwise, we lynch a mafia, they become town, they get their team lynched, GG.

That's not true.

8) Players will get two roles in this game. You will all get your first role at the start of the game. You will only get your second role upon your first death. If you die twice, you are officially actually dead. When your first role dies (regardless of how you die), your role will be revealed, but your affiliation and win conditions will be kept secret. When your second role dies, your role and affiliation will be revealed if you die by lynch or any method other than nightkill. It is possible for players to change win conditions or affiliations, however any mafia player who has BTSC with their team for role one will continue to have the same affiliation and win conditions for role two.

[DharmaHelper]

In addition to the high likelihood that Charlie Pace is a civilian role, there are these:

15: Cecil (Welcome to Night Vale). Each night, you can write a news article to be published in the thread via the host.

This is almost certain to be a civilian role, given its function.

17: Refridgerator (Haiku). Each night, you may choose one player who must post in haiku for the entire following day phase. At least 10 haiku must be posted. Unless the hosts deem that they have failed to meet the haiku requirement sufficiently, no votes cast against that player will count during that day.

At first glance, I felt this role could go either way, but looking at it again, I note that failure to meet the poetry requirement doesn't result in a punishment. Instead, the poetry requirement functions less like a challenge and more like an opportunity for a reward, which seems more suited as a civilian role given the ugly ramifications of it being a mafia role.

Also, why is "refrigerator" spelled incorrectly?

I had the same thoughts
both roles seemed like civs to me
This was a haiku

[speedchuck]

I'm almost tempted to no lynch on D1, just to put the mafia in the deciding position of killing one of their own or giving us a townfirm to work with on our first lynch. Put the pressure on them, instead of allowing them to capitalize on our likely mislynch and give us nothing.

(we can't even lynch who we want to today, in all likelyhood)

linki: CRAP
So mafia numbers can grow, but they can't defect to town. Frikkin perfect.
Lynch me so that I might see what my final win con is.

[Epignosis]

I'm starting to think the double-life issue won't be as large of an obstacle as I initially believed.

In addition, I want to lynch someone who can actually be lynched today.

[speedchuck]

(Don't actually lynch me. If I don't swap, then mafia will kill me. If I do swap, you guys will lynch me tomorrow for still being alive.)

[speedchuck]

(Wait I can't be lynched. NVM.)

[speedchuck]

I'm starting to think the double-life issue won't be as large of an obstacle as I initially believed.

[DharmaHelper]

Even though there's no
point in today's lynch vote we
still learned a whole bunch

[speedchuck]

Does anyone else have opinions on the no-lynch?

I know there's no option, but we could pile all our votes on an invincible person. Like me.

[Epignosis]

So speedchuck isn't keen on reading lengthy guidelines carefully.

We are all voting in a circle to drive a group tie to flush out who didn't send in a haiku. Not sure if that was storytelling or not in the host post about finding those who did not send in a haiku.

This is so stupid.

I mean, I sent a haiku.

But no. You're kidding?

I don't know if I believe this, especially now.

(Don't actually lynch me. If I don't swap, then mafia will kill me. If I do swap, you guys will lynch me tomorrow for still being alive.)

(Wait I can't be lynched. NVM.)

[DharmaHelper]

Everywhere we vote
will likely be a no lynch
this was a haiku

[speedchuck]

So speedchuck isn't keen on reading lengthy guidelines carefully.

We are all voting in a circle to drive a group tie to flush out who didn't send in a haiku. Not sure if that was storytelling or not in the host post about finding those who did not send in a haiku.

This is so stupid.

I mean, I sent a haiku.

But no. You're kidding?

I don't know if I believe this, especially now.

(Don't actually lynch me. If I don't swap, then mafia will kill me. If I do swap, you guys will lynch me tomorrow for still being alive.)

(Wait I can't be lynched. NVM.)

Go for it. I'm possibly advocating for a no-lynch, and going after me might make it happen.

If not, then I'll have more control over the secondary wagon. Yes, this is a good idea.

[Quin]

epignosis, please
sum up this double life talk
i'm tired and stupid

[Long Con]

There's no tangible difference between lynching a Civ who turns bad and lynch a baddie who stays bad. We won't even know which it is. And if there is a trusted Civ who dies and turns, then that's going to be hard to let go of.

[S~V~S]

Why did that make you sad?

I don't love being laughed at, no one does. Everyone says stupid things at times. But I also am perhaps overly sensitive to that, so meh.

You scumhead, I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at poor non-Haiku-sending sprityo. I was laughing at his vulnerability. "Oh you wanna really lynch someone? *jabs a thumb in sprit's direction* Just toss it on the mortal, easy!"

You called me a scumhead

Gotcha. NOW you can laugh at me.

Hey Sprityo, it looks like it's a battle between me and you.

YOU READY FOR THIS!?!???

(actually, I don't want you lynched if you have a cool role, which you're acting like you do. Hm.)

Why does this post not surprise me?

I kept getting an (albeit early, especially with the two role business) team-y vibe from you and Sprit, especially with how you reacted to the idea of the RR ... UNTIL you dropped that opportunistic vote on him. That made me feel as if one or the other of you was bad, not both. This post brought we right back to where I was.

I want to see SpeedBuffy again~ you may not have been overly effective there due to divided attentions as your other game was in endphase combined with 24 hour days, but once I had a grip on your civvieness, I understood you; but to be honest, I am not seeing that person at all in this game. I am going to reread you there, becasue as I recall, you discussed your civ game there, and being as you were a civ would have no reason to be misleading about it.

linki, lol. Yup.

Why do you want to see Speedbuffy again? So you can start a scum-lead wagon on me?

Speedbuffy - was playing with divided attention, as an important townie, under pressure.
Speedchuck in this game - is invincible day 1, has a boring but helpful role, has been promised a second role if he is lynched, and is in freaking dire straits in another game. Plus it's the weekend. Look all the way back to my first games here. Outside of burglaries, I generally play most on weekdays, and slack on weekends. I have every motivation to play low-key in this game.

Metareads are complicated, multi-state things.

And for that matter, Sprit and me are buddies, going back to a game called Terminal 13 mafia that I played in 2014. I've known him four times as long as anyone else on this site. He's the reason I'm here. There's some familiarity there.

I promise that, when half of the game isn't invincible and the chips are down, I'm going to bear down on this game and give it my all. I'm not going to join any other games while this game is going. I want to focus solely on it, especially once things get going.

But anyway, given my current invulnerable state (which leaves most of the game unlynchable even if I do scumhunt), and the burglary that might take place today, and my church duties, and so on, I'm going to pull a CC123 role #13 and be lazy for a day period. Aggressively lazy.

Chuck, I was playing as a civ when I wagoned you, and I was so sure you were bad, so it wasn't a scumwagon. It was a bad read complicated by your partner giving his all for you when I was convinced he was bad due to mu kill deflecting off him and onto Marmot. This is an important distinction; I would not want you thinking I led a scumwagon on you when I didn't.

I would rather lynch Sprit than you, but this game is gonna be hard when we really learn not much from lynches for quite a while I would guess. We don't even know how many bad teams there are, so we likely won't learn much from NK's either. We know he can die, and tbh, I personally think he is bad. That whole knowing who started the RR, then pretending he didn't and I don't buy that he forgot. Although having someone who can't die as the lynch leader will tell us what "immunity" means.

That said, Chucky, this and your subsequent posts look more like I expect than the guy who made an opportunistic vote. And I still HATE your reaction to the RR.

[Epignosis]

epignosis, please
sum up this double life talk
i'm tired and stupid

It's a theory I have that I want to keep under my hat for a while.

[speedchuck]

And I still HATE your reaction to the RR.

Sorry, I didn't mean it personally.

[Long Con]

Why did you think it was DH that thought of the round robin, Chuckers?

What do you think of S~V~S' suspicion on you that stems from this error?

[speedchuck]

Why did you think it was DH that thought of the round robin, Chuckers?

What do you think of S~V~S' suspicion on you that stems from this error?

Skimming the topic. Must have missed her post somehow. I have a bad habit of jumping on and reading the most recent stuff.

SVS's suspicion of me is probably warranted. Or, at least as warranted as it was in Buffy. She seems town to me.

[Epignosis]

I do not understand the value of a no-lynch. A no-lynch serves a very specific purpose, and Day 1 is never it.

I also have to believe that at least one mafia member here did not submit a haiku. Otherwise, this Day phase serves no civilian function and would feel a tad "trollish."

[S~V~S]

Where I am at right now:

Bob, civ. DDL potentially bad, DH not seeing the things that make me worry about him. Dom, I would like to see more, but my opinion on him is worthless it always is, he pulls the wool over my eyes all the time. Epi, talking alot about mechanics and not making left field accusation based on weird little tangents, which is making me nervous. I am hoping for some accusations based on punctuation usage or word counts. LC, like DH, there are things that make me wary of him when he's bad, and I am not seeing them. Nutella, has said some things that could make me go either way, right now I feel fairly OK about her, but it is fairly shoestring cause it's wifom which is pointless this game. Quin, not seeing why he has votes. Chuck, could be bad, not sure yet. Sprit, I think he's bad. SVS, I am not bad, although I apparently am just a tad too touchy. Will work on that

I am hoping the haikus will stop, especially since we have a haiku curser, and with voluntary haikuers it will be harder to see who is cursed.

Wait, did Chuck think that, too? So did Sprityo:

*Donald Trump voice* I should vote whoever suggested round robin in the first place. Terrible!

I think it was DH

[VOTE: DharmaHelper] aubergine

And Chuck, it was not the "stupid" that I hate, it was that you felt strongly enough about it to react that way, if you understand my point.

[S~V~S]

Why did you think it was DH that thought of the round robin, Chuckers?

What do you think of S~V~S' suspicion on you that stems from this error?

I thought I had quoted that in the post I just made when I said, "Wait, he thought that too?".

[S~V~S]

Sprityo is the one I suspect for that error, not Chuck. I suspect Chuck for other reasons.

Sprit and Chuck made the same error?

Sorry for the 3 in a row, btw.

[speedchuck]

I do not understand the value of a no-lynch. A no-lynch serves a very specific purpose, and Day 1 is never it.

If we mislynch, mafia follow up on it. We make the decisions, mafia capitalize.

If we no-lynch, mafia has to make the decision. We get to capitalize on the info that gives us.

[Epignosis]

Question for the field:

What did i miss huh?
I did not submit a poem
I mean haiku. oops.

If you are mafia, is your first move to admit that you did not submit a poem?

[speedchuck]

Wait, did Chuck think that, too? So did Sprityo:

*Donald Trump voice* I should vote whoever suggested round robin in the first place. Terrible!

I think it was DH

[VOTE: DharmaHelper] aubergine

And Chuck, it was not the "stupid" that I hate, it was that you felt strongly enough about it to react that way, if you understand my point.

I don't think I actually did make that mistake. Read into that as you will.

I tend to word things strongly. I think I said that in Buffy mafia as well, if you recall. As town or scum, if I can bring a barrel of scorn down on easy targets, it gets me town cred. Sometimes. It's all about tone.

In other words, I did that because I wanted to.

[Epignosis]

I do not understand the value of a no-lynch. A no-lynch serves a very specific purpose, and Day 1 is never it.

If we mislynch, mafia follow up on it. We make the decisions, mafia capitalize.

If we no-lynch, mafia has to make the decision. We get to capitalize on the info that gives us.

What info? Mafia kills someone, you learn a discarded role, and then what? Not lynch the person who drew the kill even though he or she has a new role and possibly a new alignment?

[Quin]

Question for the field:

What did i miss huh?
I did not submit a poem
I mean haiku. oops.

If you are mafia, is your first move to admit that you did not submit a poem?

If he didn't know
the ramifications then
it may be the case

[DharmaHelper]

The pace of this game
Will be set by mafia
Not much we can do.

[S~V~S]

Question for the field:

What did i miss huh?
I did not submit a poem
I mean haiku. oops.

If you are mafia, is your first move to admit that you did not submit a poem?

If he only skimmed the host post, possibly. I don't think ANYONE regardless of affiliation would admit that unless they had skimmed the host post. It is possible he came in before hitting the chat, or even that no one was in the chat.

And Chuck, LC, is it true that Chuck and Sprit made the same error regarding DH originating the RR?

linki @ DH, yeah.

[S~V~S]

Wait, did Chuck think that, too? So did Sprityo:

*Donald Trump voice* I should vote whoever suggested round robin in the first place. Terrible!

I think it was DH

[VOTE: DharmaHelper] aubergine

And Chuck, it was not the "stupid" that I hate, it was that you felt strongly enough about it to react that way, if you understand my point.

I don't think I actually did make that mistake. Read into that as you will.

I tend to word things strongly. I think I said that in Buffy mafia as well, if you recall. As town or scum, if I can bring a barrel of scorn down on easy targets, it gets me town cred. Sometimes. It's all about tone.

In other words, I did that because I wanted to.

So what was this about, is LC mistaking you and Sprit? I just want to clear this up, I have to go facetime my sister in 5 minutes and want Mafia not on my mind at that time ha ha.

Why did you think it was DH that thought of the round robin, Chuckers?

What do you think of S~V~S' suspicion on you that stems from this error?

Skimming the topic. Must have missed her post somehow. I have a bad habit of jumping on and reading the most recent stuff.

SVS's suspicion of me is probably warranted. Or, at least as warranted as it was in Buffy. She seems town to me.

[speedchuck]

I do not understand the value of a no-lynch. A no-lynch serves a very specific purpose, and Day 1 is never it.

If we mislynch, mafia follow up on it. We make the decisions, mafia capitalize.

If we no-lynch, mafia has to make the decision. We get to capitalize on the info that gives us.

What info? Mafia kills someone, you learn a discarded role, and then what? Not lynch the person who drew the kill even though he or she has a new role and possibly a new alignment?

New role, sure. New alignment, not super likely, unless this game is completely broken. If people can't defect FROM scum, then most aren't likely to defect TO scum.

Then again, in that unlikely circumstance, if that person they nightkilled doesn't get nightkilled the next night, we might think something's up.

Mafia will be setting the pace, giving us something to go off of. Not much, but it's something.

You may not think it's worth it. You may be right. But these are not normal circumstances, and it's worth thinking about.

[speedchuck]

Wait, did Chuck think that, too? So did Sprityo:

*Donald Trump voice* I should vote whoever suggested round robin in the first place. Terrible!

I think it was DH

[VOTE: DharmaHelper] aubergine

And Chuck, it was not the "stupid" that I hate, it was that you felt strongly enough about it to react that way, if you understand my point.

I don't think I actually did make that mistake. Read into that as you will.

I tend to word things strongly. I think I said that in Buffy mafia as well, if you recall. As town or scum, if I can bring a barrel of scorn down on easy targets, it gets me town cred. Sometimes. It's all about tone.

In other words, I did that because I wanted to.

So what was this about, is LC mistaking you and Sprit? I just want to clear this up, I have to go facetime my sister in 5 minutes and want Mafia not on my mind at that time ha ha.

Why did you think it was DH that thought of the round robin, Chuckers?

What do you think of S~V~S' suspicion on you that stems from this error?

Skimming the topic. Must have missed her post somehow. I have a bad habit of jumping on and reading the most recent stuff.

SVS's suspicion of me is probably warranted. Or, at least as warranted as it was in Buffy. She seems town to me.

I think LC mixed Sprit and I up, and I responded assuming that I said something to that effect because I was very distracted yesterday. Take that as you will.

[S~V~S]

Thank you. I WILL take that as I will. And leave my vote on Sprit and hope others do the same.

[speedchuck]

[VOTE: Unvote] aubergine
[VOTE: Vote Dom] aubergine

My headspace is between no-lynch and lynch-low-posters and lynch-scum and lynch-people-that-aren't-good-for-the-tribe

I can at least hit 2 or 3 with this vote

[speedchuck]

linki: oh I've disappointed you

[Epignosis]

I do not understand the value of a no-lynch. A no-lynch serves a very specific purpose, and Day 1 is never it.

If we mislynch, mafia follow up on it. We make the decisions, mafia capitalize.

If we no-lynch, mafia has to make the decision. We get to capitalize on the info that gives us.

What info? Mafia kills someone, you learn a discarded role, and then what? Not lynch the person who drew the kill even though he or she has a new role and possibly a new alignment?

New role, sure. New alignment, not super likely, unless this game is completely broken. If people can't defect FROM scum, then most aren't likely to defect TO scum.

Then again, in that unlikely circumstance, if that person they nightkilled doesn't get nightkilled the next night, we might think something's up.

Mafia will be setting the pace, giving us something to go off of. Not much, but it's something.

You may not think it's worth it. You may be right. But these are not normal circumstances, and it's worth thinking about.

That's demonstrably false though.

Hosts sometimes use dead civilians to replace back into their games, and sometimes those civilians come back in as mafia.

You can't have a lynched mafia come back as a civilian, because that breaks the game. The other way does not break the game. A lynched civilian might also come back as an independent or a serial killer.

I don't understand your meaning here:

Then again, in that unlikely circumstance, if that person they nightkilled doesn't get nightkilled the next night, we might think something's up.

I think you are assuming that mafia will just kill the person who got lynched that Day. Is that what you're thinking? If so, that would be incredibly short-sighted, given that the person who just got lynched might draw the attention of a protector.

[DharmaHelper]

Will the dead return
the moment they are killed off
Or will they delay

[speedchuck]

I do not understand the value of a no-lynch. A no-lynch serves a very specific purpose, and Day 1 is never it.

If we mislynch, mafia follow up on it. We make the decisions, mafia capitalize.

If we no-lynch, mafia has to make the decision. We get to capitalize on the info that gives us.

What info? Mafia kills someone, you learn a discarded role, and then what? Not lynch the person who drew the kill even though he or she has a new role and possibly a new alignment?

New role, sure. New alignment, not super likely, unless this game is completely broken. If people can't defect FROM scum, then most aren't likely to defect TO scum.

Then again, in that unlikely circumstance, if that person they nightkilled doesn't get nightkilled the next night, we might think something's up.

Mafia will be setting the pace, giving us something to go off of. Not much, but it's something.

You may not think it's worth it. You may be right. But these are not normal circumstances, and it's worth thinking about.

That's demonstrably false though.

Hosts sometimes use dead civilians to replace back into their games, and sometimes those civilians come back in as mafia.

You can't have a lynched mafia come back as a civilian, because that breaks the game. The other way does not break the game. A lynched civilian might also come back as an independent or a serial killer.

Correct. I don't see what the issue is.

If town can come back as scum, and scum can't come back as town, then the former (a scum recruitment) CANNOT happen often. For game balance. Mafia teams need to be a reasonable size. Example: If you have 2-3 mafia between the 11 of us, that's fine. 4 is too many, because 1 mislynch puts us in 'MYLO'. 1 is too few. So we could have 2 mafia and one recruitment, maybe.
Look at the odds and tell me that more than 1 specific townie could be reborn as scum.

Indies are a whole nother ballgame, but some down to the same problem as town. If we lynch them, or scum kill them, then it's likely they'll die again soon.

I don't understand your meaning here:

Then again, in that unlikely circumstance, if that person they nightkilled doesn't get nightkilled the next night, we might think something's up.

I think you are assuming that mafia will just kill the person who got lynched that Day. Is that what you're thinking? If so, that would be incredibly short-sighted, given that the person who just got lynched might draw the attention of a protector.

So we lynch someone because we genuinely want them dead, and then a townie protects them? That'd be stupid. We lynch people because we want them dead.

[speedchuck]

Will the dead return
the moment they are killed off
Or will they delay

This is important.

[Golden]

I do not understand the value of a no-lynch. A no-lynch serves a very specific purpose, and Day 1 is never it.

I also have to believe that at least one mafia member here did not submit a haiku. Otherwise, this Day phase serves no civilian function and would feel a tad "trollish."

For clarity, this mechanic was designed before roles were allocated.

[Epignosis]

For all you know, speedchuck, there could be two active mafia in BTSC right now. One here and one in the other tribe. That could easily mean three potential recruits from the dead coming back evil.

What I am saying is that you cannot make assumptions about what mafia will do with their kills because of assumptions you are making regarding the setup.

[Long Con]

I did mix up Sprit and Speed there, sorry!

[Long Con]

Question for the field:

What did i miss huh?
I did not submit a poem
I mean haiku. oops.

If you are mafia, is your first move to admit that you did not submit a poem?

Absolutely not.

I do feel, though, that I should follow that up with a less leading kind of statement: Civ, Indy, or Mafia, my first move would not be to admit I didn't submit a poem.

The admission is Non-Alignment-Indicative to me. I believe it was just a careless move that was not all that well-thought-out.