The Syndicate

Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:23 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:20 pm Spicy take #2

Sloonei developed his opinion on ddl as a spectator, then replaced into a scum slot, learned ddl is not on his team, and ran with it. And also is teammates with speed.

The first clause is correct. Do you have reason to believe the others? Why is speedchuck my partner?

I entertained the idea that Jay was scum so yeah. Speed is my top suspect, and I didn't like how Jay treated him, and I found your interaction with him compatible as well.

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:20 pm Spicy take #2

Sloonei developed his opinion on ddl as a spectator, then replaced into a scum slot, learned ddl is not on his team, and ran with it. And also is teammates with speed.

Needs more paprika

Okay. Caught up.

Some off-topic-ish acculturation rants to start:
1) I dislike that vote-changing is so popular now. Keeping track of shit is a headache. Seeing someone call a vote, wanting to look at it more for the why, only to get further and they've changed it again (and again, and maybe again). Grr.
2) I dislike how much people are now willing to openly call townreads on people. On day fucking 1. WIFOM on WIFOM on WIFOM. It feels so calculated and head-spinning for me.

So those are both things that threw me off in Inception as well and I'm already chewing through here. It feels even more heightened in this game because I didn't replace in just to immediately get killed.

Yeah how dare people townread other people, that’s not how this game is played! I shake my stick at you youngsters and your new fangled townreads!!

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:26 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:23 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:20 pm Spicy take #2

Sloonei developed his opinion on ddl as a spectator, then replaced into a scum slot, learned ddl is not on his team, and ran with it. And also is teammates with speed.

The first clause is correct. Do you have reason to believe the others? Why is speedchuck my partner?

I entertained the idea that Jay was scum so yeah. Speed is my top suspect, and I didn't like how Jay treated him, and I found your interaction with him compatible as well.

Oh right, I kinda forgot i’m replacing into a player slot that has actually been active. Meh. I can’t speak for anything Jay did in his time here. You’ll all have a read on me before long.

boo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:36 pm Okay. Caught up.

Some off-topic-ish acculturation rants to start:
1) I dislike that vote-changing is so popular now. Keeping track of shit is a headache. Seeing someone call a vote, wanting to look at it more for the why, only to get further and they've changed it again (and again, and maybe again). Grr.
2) I dislike how much people are now willing to openly call townreads on people. On day fucking 1. WIFOM on WIFOM on WIFOM. It feels so calculated and head-spinning for me.

So those are both things that threw me off in Inception as well and I'm already chewing through here. It feels even more heightened in this game because I didn't replace in just to immediately get killed.

I am your worst nightmare.

boo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:36 pm Okay. Caught up.

Some off-topic-ish acculturation rants to start:
1) I dislike that vote-changing is so popular now. Keeping track of shit is a headache. Seeing someone call a vote, wanting to look at it more for the why, only to get further and they've changed it again (and again, and maybe again). Grr.
2) I dislike how much people are now willing to openly call townreads on people. On day fucking 1. WIFOM on WIFOM on WIFOM. It feels so calculated and head-spinning for me.

So those are both things that threw me off in Inception as well and I'm already chewing through here. It feels even more heightened in this game because I didn't replace in just to immediately get killed.

Who specifically is doing calculated things in bulletpoint 2?

It was discussed and dropped pretty quickly, but my 2 cents on the games breakdown:

There is 1 mafia team. It's the Barksdale Crew. 3 or 4 members. Roles: Avon, Stringer, and Wee-bay. In a game with as many roles as this one had cut, I'm gonna call it just those 3, but a 4th wouldn't surprise me a ton.

Independents... I'm going to say there are 2 in the game as is.
It would be the highest of all crimes for there to be no Omar. I'd imagine that to be a mostly civ-friendly, needs all mafia dead type of role.

To balance that out, I'd assume there's a more mafia-friendly indie as well. Lots of characters that would fit there. With the cuts made, maybe just needs certain other characters dead to win, and can win with mafia alive.

That would leave 13 civs.

Seems about right.

boo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:36 pm Okay. Caught up.

Some off-topic-ish acculturation rants to start:
1) I dislike that vote-changing is so popular now. Keeping track of shit is a headache. Seeing someone call a vote, wanting to look at it more for the why, only to get further and they've changed it again (and again, and maybe again). Grr.
2) I dislike how much people are now willing to openly call townreads on people. On day fucking 1. WIFOM on WIFOM on WIFOM. It feels so calculated and head-spinning for me.

So those are both things that threw me off in Inception as well and I'm already chewing through here. It feels even more heightened in this game because I didn't replace in just to immediately get killed.

Actual advice for adjusting to this style: don’t put so much stock in early-to-mid-day votes. Part of them being changeable means that we’re free to use them as tools for conversation. A vote is not always (perhaps seldom) an actual vote in the sense that the voter is actively advocating for that player to be lynched until late in the phase. We throw them around to prompt reactions, not because we’re settled on a suspect.

And town reads are just negative scum reads. The town is a team and we should function as such. The most effective way to do that is to be an open and responsive in the thread. This means expressing town reads when they come up. If anyone is wrong about anything, we’ll work through it.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:14 pm How distracting is it that my avatar doesn’t have nipples?

Idk if I’m happy with it. Nobody even laughed even though Speed had just said something about naked avatars.

I did. I just didn't post a lol

Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:40 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:26 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:23 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:20 pm Spicy take #2

Sloonei developed his opinion on ddl as a spectator, then replaced into a scum slot, learned ddl is not on his team, and ran with it. And also is teammates with speed.

The first clause is correct. Do you have reason to believe the others? Why is speedchuck my partner?

I entertained the idea that Jay was scum so yeah. Speed is my top suspect, and I didn't like how Jay treated him, and I found your interaction with him compatible as well.

Oh right, I kinda forgot i’m replacing into a player slot that has actually been active. Meh. I can’t speak for anything Jay did in his time here. You’ll all have a read on me before long.

I mean he had like two posts lol.

Urgh I need ISOs

Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:17 pm

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:09 pm I was just lamenting that Sloonei wasn't in this game when I saw him viewing it

<3

Why are you voting for mac?

Token participation and prodding. The 'if you had a gun' rubbed me the wrong way. Like, ooh, here's the questions that town people ask. Let's ask it.

The question doesn't make much of anything at this stage of the game. Might as well be calling for D1 POEs, and we all know how I feel about THAT. Right, JJJ?

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:38 pm Yeah how dare people townread other people, that’s not how this game is played! I shake my stick at you youngsters and your new fangled townreads!!

It being done so brazenly is what throws me.

Openly townreading people (if it seems you have good reasons) was always a really great way to paint a target on their back and get them NKed in my mind.

Doing it (if it seems you don't have good reasons) has a bunch of downsides, it's WIFOM at best, it can feel like mafia (the one making the read) buddying to a civ, it can cause civs to establish way too much trust in a mafia that is decent at changing their meta up... etc.

It just isn't how I process the game. As a civ, my starting point is everyone is bad and I go from there. Any townread I make would be held onto until at least D3 or 4 because there just isn't enough information for it to remain accurate before then.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:56 pm Urgh I need ISOs

When you do me I expect a thank you for providing such good fun and clean humor.

boo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:51 pm It was discussed and dropped pretty quickly, but my 2 cents on the games breakdown:

There is 1 mafia team. It's the Barksdale Crew. 3 or 4 members. Roles: Avon, Stringer, and Wee-bay. In a game with as many roles as this one had cut, I'm gonna call it just those 3, but a 4th wouldn't surprise me a ton.

Independents... I'm going to say there are 2 in the game as is.
It would be the highest of all crimes for there to be no Omar. I'd imagine that to be a mostly civ-friendly, needs all mafia dead type of role.

To balance that out, I'd assume there's a more mafia-friendly indie as well. Lots of characters that would fit there. With the cuts made, maybe just needs certain other characters dead to win, and can win with mafia alive.

That would leave 13 civs.

Seems about right.

I really like that someone besides Creature humored me here, so I'll give boo a few civ points.

Also Boo you're from the era of NK'd = no win right?

I'm a lot like boo in this way actually.

I really like Nanook he's fun ergo he must live for awhile. Wouldn't be shocked if he was mafia given his post about being in mafia chat it seems like something he'd do based off the rest of his D1 playstyle. Buuuuut since he's fun I say let him live.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:53 pm

boo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:36 pm Okay. Caught up.

Some off-topic-ish acculturation rants to start:
1) I dislike that vote-changing is so popular now. Keeping track of shit is a headache. Seeing someone call a vote, wanting to look at it more for the why, only to get further and they've changed it again (and again, and maybe again). Grr.
2) I dislike how much people are now willing to openly call townreads on people. On day fucking 1. WIFOM on WIFOM on WIFOM. It feels so calculated and head-spinning for me.

So those are both things that threw me off in Inception as well and I'm already chewing through here. It feels even more heightened in this game because I didn't replace in just to immediately get killed.

Actual advice for adjusting to this style: don’t put so much stock in early-to-mid-day votes. Part of them being changeable means that we’re free to use them as tools for conversation. A vote is not always (perhaps seldom) an actual vote in the sense that the voter is actively advocating for that player to be lynched until late in the phase. We throw them around to prompt reactions, not because we’re settled on a suspect.

And town reads are just negative scum reads. The town is a team and we should function as such. The most effective way to do that is to be an open and responsive in the thread. This means expressing town reads when they come up. If anyone is wrong about anything, we’ll work through it.

I see your first point. But, as was the case in Inception, I think that style of voting really hampers civs working together throughout the day to find common suspicions. Votes fly around so you won't know where things end up until the day actually ends. It's far more reactive than proactive, which means far more chaos, which does far more to benefit mafia, imo.

As for your second point. I understand your logic. But again, I view doing that so brazenly as really opening up the civs to influence from the mafia. I also strongly disagree with your idea that anyone being wrong about anything gets worked through. People make unsubstantiated townreads, and expect other people to agree with them. Being challenged on them has not, in my experience so far, resulted in the person who made the read open up and engage in discussion with the questioner, it made them challenge the questioner and grow distrust.

Like I said initially, it's all just a change in culture for me. If I'm going to play, I suppose I'll need to adapt to it. I just have the gut reaction of seeing a lot of pitfalls.

sig wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:02 am

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:56 pm Urgh I need ISOs

When you do me I expect a thank you for providing such good fun and clean humor.

boo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:51 pm It was discussed and dropped pretty quickly, but my 2 cents on the games breakdown:

There is 1 mafia team. It's the Barksdale Crew. 3 or 4 members. Roles: Avon, Stringer, and Wee-bay. In a game with as many roles as this one had cut, I'm gonna call it just those 3, but a 4th wouldn't surprise me a ton.

Independents... I'm going to say there are 2 in the game as is.
It would be the highest of all crimes for there to be no Omar. I'd imagine that to be a mostly civ-friendly, needs all mafia dead type of role.

To balance that out, I'd assume there's a more mafia-friendly indie as well. Lots of characters that would fit there. With the cuts made, maybe just needs certain other characters dead to win, and can win with mafia alive.

That would leave 13 civs.

Seems about right.

I really like that someone besides Creature humored me here, so I'll give boo a few civ points.

Also Boo you're from the era of NK'd = no win right?

Correct. My experience was almost always, that as a civ, if you were not alive at the end, you did not win. A handful of games on RM changed that at times. Personally I prefer the latter method. It makes civs work as a more cohesive team, willing to take a death for the greater-good, rather than all being more self-interested, especially for those players who are competitive and place a lot of value on a full and proper win in which they get to display a shiny new banner (nothing against people with that mentality. winning is great, but I think defining a win in that way hurts the team-sense of some people when they're playing as civ).

Chaos definitely helps town more than it helps mafia.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:47 pm

boo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:36 pm Okay. Caught up.

Some off-topic-ish acculturation rants to start:
1) I dislike that vote-changing is so popular now. Keeping track of shit is a headache. Seeing someone call a vote, wanting to look at it more for the why, only to get further and they've changed it again (and again, and maybe again). Grr.
2) I dislike how much people are now willing to openly call townreads on people. On day fucking 1. WIFOM on WIFOM on WIFOM. It feels so calculated and head-spinning for me.

So those are both things that threw me off in Inception as well and I'm already chewing through here. It feels even more heightened in this game because I didn't replace in just to immediately get killed.

Who specifically is doing calculated things in bulletpoint 2?

Oh, I have no idea for this one. To me, at this stage in the game, almost everyone who makes open townreads gets that reaction (my lone exception would be if someone you trust is in danger of getting lynched, you're better off discussing why they shouldn't be than just letting it happen. But even that, I think, is better accomplished by finding a better lynch target than a straight up defense of someone else). But when it's a common way of playing, that is useless to me in forming suspicions.

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:48 pm

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:23 pm Saying something is "interesting" is just about the most boring thing you could do.

I thought we had a game without Epi for once

Do you have something to say or are you going to obfuscate more?

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:02 pm

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:23 pm Saying something is "interesting" is just about the most boring thing you could do.

It’s a meme. That scum can’t say what they mean because they don’t have legit opinions or are afraid to look to eager so they just call things interesting. That’s why Speed and I capitalized the word INTERESTING.

It’s being like “haha I am using a scumtell.”

Though for realzies I was interested in seeing where you would go with the Nutella accusation.

Sure. I'll buy that on sale.

Nutella is declaring people civvie, and is sure of all her reads. There is no wavering. There is no fence sitting. There is no worry.
I don't think it's a civ look for her.

boo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:36 pm Okay. Caught up.

Some off-topic-ish acculturation rants to start:
1) I dislike that vote-changing is so popular now. Keeping track of shit is a headache. Seeing someone call a vote, wanting to look at it more for the why, only to get further and they've changed it again (and again, and maybe again). Grr.
2) I dislike how much people are now willing to openly call townreads on people. On day fucking 1. WIFOM on WIFOM on WIFOM. It feels so calculated and head-spinning for me.

So those are both things that threw me off in Inception as well and I'm already chewing through here. It feels even more heightened in this game because I didn't replace in just to immediately get killed.

Boo.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:12 am Chaos definitely helps town more than it helps mafia.

I do not agree.

boo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:00 am

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:38 pm Yeah how dare people townread other people, that’s not how this game is played! I shake my stick at you youngsters and your new fangled townreads!!

It being done so brazenly is what throws me.

Openly townreading people (if it seems you have good reasons) was always a really great way to paint a target on their back and get them NKed in my mind.

Doing it (if it seems you don't have good reasons) has a bunch of downsides, it's WIFOM at best, it can feel like mafia (the one making the read) buddying to a civ, it can cause civs to establish way too much trust in a mafia that is decent at changing their meta up... etc.

It just isn't how I process the game. As a civ, my starting point is everyone is bad and I go from there. Any townread I make would be held onto until at least D3 or 4 because there just isn't enough information for it to remain accurate before then.

I mean that’s backwards, yeah? More people are good than bad, so assuming everyone is bad from the get go means you’re less likely to be right and you’re hamstringing yourself in addition.

So yeah not to be all “you’re doing it wrong” but your approach is bad and you should feel bad.

Reads lists on the other hand are bad and should be outlawed.

Dom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:26 am

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:48 pm

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:23 pm Saying something is "interesting" is just about the most boring thing you could do.

I thought we had a game without Epi for once

Do you have something to say or are you going to obfuscate more?

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:02 pm

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:23 pm Saying something is "interesting" is just about the most boring thing you could do.

It’s a meme. That scum can’t say what they mean because they don’t have legit opinions or are afraid to look to eager so they just call things interesting. That’s why Speed and I capitalized the word INTERESTING.

It’s being like “haha I am using a scumtell.”

Though for realzies I was interested in seeing where you would go with the Nutella accusation.

Sure. I'll buy that on sale.

Nutella is declaring people civvie, and is sure of all her reads. There is no wavering. There is no fence sitting. There is no worry.
I don't think it's a civ look for her.

boo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:36 pm Okay. Caught up.

Some off-topic-ish acculturation rants to start:
1) I dislike that vote-changing is so popular now. Keeping track of shit is a headache. Seeing someone call a vote, wanting to look at it more for the why, only to get further and they've changed it again (and again, and maybe again). Grr.
2) I dislike how much people are now willing to openly call townreads on people. On day fucking 1. WIFOM on WIFOM on WIFOM. It feels so calculated and head-spinning for me.

So those are both things that threw me off in Inception as well and I'm already chewing through here. It feels even more heightened in this game because I didn't replace in just to immediately get killed.

Boo.

Really though Dom? I feel like LA was the most townread early and brazenly of just about anyone I can recall and who is still playing. That she has taken to this style doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

boo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:27 am

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:12 am Chaos definitely helps town more than it helps mafia.

I do not agree.

Chaos is unstable. It can’t be planned for or calculated. It forces people to react in immediate ways with pressure in them. In such situations, a member of the mafia team is more likely to slip up than in a situation that they can control or anticipate.

Part of it is also about trusting your fellow civilians, which is also a big part of the philosophy behind declaring town reads.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:32 am Reads lists on the other hand are bad and should be outlawed.

Town read on Boo, btw.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:32 am

boo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:00 am

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:38 pm Yeah how dare people townread other people, that’s not how this game is played! I shake my stick at you youngsters and your new fangled townreads!!

It being done so brazenly is what throws me.

Openly townreading people (if it seems you have good reasons) was always a really great way to paint a target on their back and get them NKed in my mind.

Doing it (if it seems you don't have good reasons) has a bunch of downsides, it's WIFOM at best, it can feel like mafia (the one making the read) buddying to a civ, it can cause civs to establish way too much trust in a mafia that is decent at changing their meta up... etc.

It just isn't how I process the game. As a civ, my starting point is everyone is bad and I go from there. Any townread I make would be held onto until at least D3 or 4 because there just isn't enough information for it to remain accurate before then.

I mean that’s backwards, yeah? More people are good than bad, so assuming everyone is bad from the get go means you’re less likely to be right and you’re hamstringing yourself in addition.

So yeah not to be all “you’re doing it wrong” but your approach is bad and you should feel bad.

More people are good than bad, yes. But as a civ, I am only going to typically be directly responsible for at most, maybe a handful of deaths in a game. My assuming everyone is bad isn't going to get my false-reads killed unless they are so convincing I can get a bunch of other people to agree with me that a person seems bad, at which point, yes I might be wrong, but I'm wrong with a consensus.

If however, I start off willing to trust anyone and everyone, by your approach my mathematically safest approach is to just work to kill no one. That's a terrible civ strategy though in practice.

boo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:32 am

Dom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:26 am

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:48 pm

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:23 pm Saying something is "interesting" is just about the most boring thing you could do.

I thought we had a game without Epi for once

Do you have something to say or are you going to obfuscate more?

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:02 pm

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:23 pm Saying something is "interesting" is just about the most boring thing you could do.

It’s a meme. That scum can’t say what they mean because they don’t have legit opinions or are afraid to look to eager so they just call things interesting. That’s why Speed and I capitalized the word INTERESTING.

It’s being like “haha I am using a scumtell.”

Though for realzies I was interested in seeing where you would go with the Nutella accusation.

Sure. I'll buy that on sale.

Nutella is declaring people civvie, and is sure of all her reads. There is no wavering. There is no fence sitting. There is no worry.
I don't think it's a civ look for her.

boo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:36 pm Okay. Caught up.

Some off-topic-ish acculturation rants to start:
1) I dislike that vote-changing is so popular now. Keeping track of shit is a headache. Seeing someone call a vote, wanting to look at it more for the why, only to get further and they've changed it again (and again, and maybe again). Grr.
2) I dislike how much people are now willing to openly call townreads on people. On day fucking 1. WIFOM on WIFOM on WIFOM. It feels so calculated and head-spinning for me.

So those are both things that threw me off in Inception as well and I'm already chewing through here. It feels even more heightened in this game because I didn't replace in just to immediately get killed.

Boo.

Really though Dom? I feel like LA was the most townread early and brazenly of just about anyone I can recall and who is still playing. That she has taken to this style doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

LA is not a name I've hard... in a very long time.

You don't recall her fence sitting? I bet her ass is still sore from all of it.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:33 am

boo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:27 am

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:12 am Chaos definitely helps town more than it helps mafia.

I do not agree.

Chaos is unstable. It can’t be planned for or calculated. It forces people to react in immediate ways with pressure in them. In such situations, a member of the mafia team is more likely to slip up than in a situation that they can control or anticipate.

Part of it is also about trusting your fellow civilians, which is also a big part of the philosophy behind declaring town reads.

True. But chaos can be fought with chaos. And seeding "chaos" that is carefully done can be planned by mafia. Inception had an atrocious mafia-team start as a result of civ-friendly chaos, but they turned it around (from my perspective) by getting the chaos back to their advantage.

As is probably evident by everything else I've said, my philosophy is to keep trust to a minimum. I do not know who my fellow civilians are, so I cannot trust them, because if I place my trust incorrectly, that becomes a mafia advantage. Give out trust far more sparingly, you get burned far less.

Trust others, but don’t trust yourself to be right about them and you’ll be golden.

Her fence sitting would feel a lot more in her baddie-meta than her civ-meta, to me Dom. I'm curious for her to weigh in on it herself now though.

Anyways, I just spent far longer on this than I meant to (and I'm aware most of that was far to meta a discussion to be particularly useful, so apologies for those who have no interest in that sort of overall game analysis and just like the skin and bones of a game to chew on, I'll try and focus on the issues at hand tomorrow), have an exam in a few hours and still need to actually sleep. I will be back with plenty of time before the lynch ends though, so shouldn't be an issue.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:44 am Trust others, but don’t trust yourself to be right about them and you’ll be golden.

I'm far too self-indulgent to ever consider I might actually be wrong.

[mention]Rej[/mention]
If not DDL, then who?

Dom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:26 am

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:48 pm

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:23 pm Saying something is "interesting" is just about the most boring thing you could do.

I thought we had a game without Epi for once

Do you have something to say or are you going to obfuscate more?

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:02 pm

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:23 pm Saying something is "interesting" is just about the most boring thing you could do.

It’s a meme. That scum can’t say what they mean because they don’t have legit opinions or are afraid to look to eager so they just call things interesting. That’s why Speed and I capitalized the word INTERESTING.

It’s being like “haha I am using a scumtell.”

Though for realzies I was interested in seeing where you would go with the Nutella accusation.

Sure. I'll buy that on sale.

Nutella is declaring people civvie, and is sure of all her reads. There is no wavering. There is no fence sitting. There is no worry.
I don't think it's a civ look for her.

boo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:36 pm Okay. Caught up.

Some off-topic-ish acculturation rants to start:
1) I dislike that vote-changing is so popular now. Keeping track of shit is a headache. Seeing someone call a vote, wanting to look at it more for the why, only to get further and they've changed it again (and again, and maybe again). Grr.
2) I dislike how much people are now willing to openly call townreads on people. On day fucking 1. WIFOM on WIFOM on WIFOM. It feels so calculated and head-spinning for me.

So those are both things that threw me off in Inception as well and I'm already chewing through here. It feels even more heightened in this game because I didn't replace in just to immediately get killed.

Boo.

It's too early for the wavering and worry. That will come by later in the phase. And I actually don't have that many strong reads. I declared Creature town, I said I townleaned on several people (note: lean), and I am seeing speed as scum with a pretty strong read but it may waver with more content. It's just my starting point.

boo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:37 am

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:32 am

boo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:00 am

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:38 pm Yeah how dare people townread other people, that’s not how this game is played! I shake my stick at you youngsters and your new fangled townreads!!

It being done so brazenly is what throws me.

Openly townreading people (if it seems you have good reasons) was always a really great way to paint a target on their back and get them NKed in my mind.

Doing it (if it seems you don't have good reasons) has a bunch of downsides, it's WIFOM at best, it can feel like mafia (the one making the read) buddying to a civ, it can cause civs to establish way too much trust in a mafia that is decent at changing their meta up... etc.

It just isn't how I process the game. As a civ, my starting point is everyone is bad and I go from there. Any townread I make would be held onto until at least D3 or 4 because there just isn't enough information for it to remain accurate before then.

I mean that’s backwards, yeah? More people are good than bad, so assuming everyone is bad from the get go means you’re less likely to be right and you’re hamstringing yourself in addition.

So yeah not to be all “you’re doing it wrong” but your approach is bad and you should feel bad.

More people are good than bad, yes. But as a civ, I am only going to typically be directly responsible for at most, maybe a handful of deaths in a game. My assuming everyone is bad isn't going to get my false-reads killed unless they are so convincing I can get a bunch of other people to agree with me that a person seems bad, at which point, yes I might be wrong, but I'm wrong with a consensus.

If however, I start off willing to trust anyone and everyone, by your approach my mathematically safest approach is to just work to kill no one. That's a terrible civ strategy though in practice.

Where I play normally the town winrate is around 80%, my own personal town WR hovers around 65-70%. I have some idea what I’m talking about

boo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:27 am

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:12 am Chaos definitely helps town more than it helps mafia.

I do not agree.

Chaotic EODs with lots of vote switches/counter-wagons more often lead to scum lynches, I believe. I don't know the stats but I'm pretty sure it's a thing.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:32 am Reads lists on the other hand are bad and should be outlawed.

Now this is some spice from the frosty fellow.

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:59 am

boo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:27 am

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:12 am Chaos definitely helps town more than it helps mafia.

I do not agree.

Chaotic EODs with lots of vote switches/counter-wagons more often lead to scum lynches, I believe. I don't know the stats but I'm pretty sure it's a thing.

I only have numbers for 451, but in the group of games looked at (around 12 IIRC, so small sample size disclaimer), town would have been better off killing the vote leader 48 hours into a 72 hour day over EOD scrambles a significant amount of the time (I think it was something like 2/3 accuracy vs. 1/2 but definitely don’t quote me, I’d have to go back and look and I’m too lazy to find the conversation).

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:44 am Trust others, but don’t trust yourself to be right about them and you’ll be golden.

We all aspire to be Golden.

boo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:49 am Her fence sitting would feel a lot more in her baddie-meta than her civ-meta, to me Dom. I'm curious for her to weigh in on it herself now though.

Anyways, I just spent far longer on this than I meant to (and I'm aware most of that was far to meta a discussion to be particularly useful, so apologies for those who have no interest in that sort of overall game analysis and just like the skin and bones of a game to chew on, I'll try and focus on the issues at hand tomorrow), have an exam in a few hours and still need to actually sleep. I will be back with plenty of time before the lynch ends though, so shouldn't be an issue.

Fence-sitting and flip-flopping is definitely, firmly, squarely my town meta. Dom is right about that. It's just early enough in the game that I mostly just have the starting reads that I may flip-flop on later.

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:00 am

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:32 am Reads lists on the other hand are bad and should be outlawed.

Now this is some spice from the frosty fellow.

I’ve said it before.

I’m sure I’ll say it again.

Reads lists give scum a roadmap to the game and are bad.

Yes I’m sure many of you will have rebuttals, some of you maybe the same ones I heard in Inception, I’m still not interested and you’re not going to change my mind with some “but the reeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaads” argument. Most reads are meaningless to begin with, putting that many out there just makes it easier for scum to plan their night game.

Now if you’ll excuse me I’m going to ride this high horse to bed, tyvm.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:04 am

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:00 am

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:32 am Reads lists on the other hand are bad and should be outlawed.

Now this is some spice from the frosty fellow.

I’ve said it before.

I’m sure I’ll say it again.

Reads lists give scum a roadmap to the game and are bad.

Yes I’m sure many of you will have rebuttals, some of you maybe the same ones I heard in Inception, I’m still not interested and you’re not going to change my mind with some “but the reeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaads” argument. Most reads are meaningless to begin with, putting that many out there just makes it easier for scum to plan their night game.

That's actually a pretty good point.

Maybe I'll try to go a whole game without doing a rainbow list. Still, I think there's a balance to be found there -- while you have a point that there is value in keeping your reads fairly close to your chest to avoid scum taking advantage of them, sharing reads is still a crucial tool for the town in solving the game and in order for the town to function as a team there needs to be a decent amount of communication to that end.

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:07 am

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:04 am

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:00 am

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:32 am Reads lists on the other hand are bad and should be outlawed.

Now this is some spice from the frosty fellow.

I’ve said it before.

I’m sure I’ll say it again.

Reads lists give scum a roadmap to the game and are bad.

Yes I’m sure many of you will have rebuttals, some of you maybe the same ones I heard in Inception, I’m still not interested and you’re not going to change my mind with some “but the reeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaads” argument. Most reads are meaningless to begin with, putting that many out there just makes it easier for scum to plan their night game.

That's actually a pretty good point.

Maybe I'll try to go a whole game without doing a rainbow list. Still, I think there's a balance to be found there -- while you have a point that there is value in keeping your reads fairly close to your chest to avoid scum taking advantage of them, sharing reads is still a crucial tool for the town in solving the game and in order for the town to function as a team there needs to be a decent amount of communication to that end.

I’m not against sharing reads, I just don’t like doing scums work for them by compiling them into easily digestible lists.

I also am a hypocrite in that I will lie about my reads and/or my confidence in them a relatively frequent amount of the time while also believing that town should mostly be honest about their reads.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:11 am

I also am a hypocrite in that I will lie about my reads and/or my confidence in them a relatively frequent amount of the time while also believing that town should mostly be honest about their reads.

actually same tho lol

like I was kind of trying to say in response to dom, my confidence in speed being scum was fairly strong at first but is probably declining/will decline as more stuff happens, but I'm maintaining a worldview that he's scum partially as a perspective to aid in content generation/reactions (both from others and from myself). I've certainly been misleading about how confident I was about a read in past games to various effects (then sometimes getting looked at funny when I back off them lol).

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:16 am

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:11 am

I also am a hypocrite in that I will lie about my reads and/or my confidence in them a relatively frequent amount of the time while also believing that town should mostly be honest about their reads.

actually same tho lol

like I was kind of trying to say in response to dom, my confidence in speed being scum was fairly strong at first but is probably declining/will decline as more stuff happens, but I'm maintaining a worldview that he's scum partially as a perspective to aid in content generation/reactions (both from others and from myself). I've certainly been misleading about how confident I was about a read in past games to various effects (then sometimes getting looked at funny when I back off them lol).

I knew you were my spirit animal/condiment!