No worries, DDL.
It'll be great to play another game with you, whenever you have more time. I can relate to your situation, especially since I'm in a game over on RYM at the moment as well, all the while RL is demanding much of my time. Juggling multiple games is definitely an art. And welcome, Canuck! It will be great to play with you again.
On the topic of RL, please note the following, as it will have an impact on my behavior this game.
I'm leaving for Cincinnati tomorrow until Sunday mostly to take care of wedding planning, and it will be a SUPER tight schedule. I will literally only have time for wedding stuff and a little bit of time with my family and that's it. I really wish I could even make a little bit of time to see friends, since I haven't seen any since Christmas, but I can't. After I return, I have a very busy month ahead of me with wedding planning (wedding is August 8th) as well as PhD work: (1) juggling my independent research project, (2) my replication (yes, Epi, Choi et al 2010 the auditing one, not the Biology one) and first year paper, (3) my teaching prep class seminar (in which I fully prepare for the Principles of Accounting I class I'm teaching in the Fall, as well as read two books, and various other activities), and (4) research assistant work (this is stuff I get paid my stipend to do, so I can't ignore it). This already is 50+ hours a week, but will increasingly become more demanding as I get into July. I've also already spent too much time procrastinating some of it, thanks to mafia. See: Economics mostly, but also Biblical and The Flash (briefly). Consequently, my mafia game, which is often defined by a high volume of posts, will be affected this game. I will be much more likely to pop in less frequently, which will increase my already notoriously long posts probably much more so, and make my style seem more like a cross of Blooper-esque, Epi-esque, and MP-esque, rather than straight-up MP-esque combination of frequency and volume. Please read my posts anyway, if you are so inclined, and I will try my absolute hardest to put as much effort into this game as I can, since it will probably be my last for a couple of months.
I will be taking full advantage of spoiler tags just to keep my post from being insanely long as I'm often notorious for. That is not a license to skim over my post. I hope it means that it actually increases the likelihood of being read.
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1) The 'Voting for New Players' Gambit
Full disclosure, I never actually intended on giving new players a "free pass" this game. I was hoping it would garner discussion, hence why I wouldn't answer Epi's question about my change in opinion, since my opinion never really changed 180 degrees.
Noting that DDL, Epi, Golden, and Sloonei were playing this game, all of whom played Economics, I was hoping someone would note a slight change in my opinion from Economics, and that it would make my drastic shift in opinion seem more believable. Here is the post from Economics that DDL was probably thinking of:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Also, to make it clear, I will not be voting for any Syndicate newbies on Day 1 unless they fall into "moderate mafia" read range or worse, without any accompanying non-Syndicate candidates. I think it's only fair to give them time to prove themselves and get into a groove here, which many of them have done. I know this specifically goes against my behavior in many prior games on the matter, where I was indifferent as to whether someone was new or not as to my Day 1 vote.
I specifically was looking for reactions from Epi and S~V~S, since those are two players I consistently have a difficult time reading, especially early on in games, and, more significantly, those are two players which consistently have had strong opinions on both sides of the issue, and as a result I felt they were the two (perhaps besides DDL, Golden, etc.) most likely engage with me regarding it. I received the reaction I was anticipating from Epi, and his interaction with me made me feel good about him (I'll elaborate more in a second here), hence why Epi was declared a very slight civilian read. I'm not sure if I received the full extent of a reaction I was anticipating from S~V~S (again, will elaborate).
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1a) Why did Epi's reaction make me feel good about him from a vibes-based standpoint?
People keep saying this is 'standard Epi', and while that is largely true, I do feel that people (whether civilian or mafia) are parroting this non-opinion of him to make it seem as though they have something to say. Personally, I have something by which to issue at least some opinion of Epi, hence why he made a color in my rainbow. A few players have speculated how I have been able to do that. I will explain that now. I did and still do feel good about the way he handled my situation, and I will not be voting for him today. Here's why:
Epignosis wrote:MovingPictures07 wrote:***I would like to avoid voting a player completely new to The Syndicate on Day 1. I used to very vocally oppose those who took this view, but I have recently come around to this line of thinking. I do think it would suck to come to a new site and get lynched Day 1 your first game, so newbies will get a "free pass" from me, but only from my vote (not any suspicion I have), and if they are my top suspect going into Day 2, I will not hesitate to vote for a newbie.
Why? What changed your mind, that you should "very vocally oppose those who took this view" to "recently come around to this line of thinking?" The underlined was the exact same reasoning people gave, which you claim to have rejected that notion before, but now you are accepting it without offering any reason why.
That's a change of heart I was not expecting, especially slipped into a discussion about your history with Devin.
To put a finer point on it, I count exactly four brand new people in this. If you are bad with any number of them, your change of heart excuses you from voting them Day 1 (i.e., putting your money where your mouth is) all the while leaving yourself open to distance ("Yes, I'm quite suspicious of NEWGUY but as I already said Day 0, I won't vote a new person").
While I would expect Epi to respond with content like this regardless of alignment, I was glad to see the bolded and underlined sentiment. He was able to suss out the awkwardness of my statements, purposefully placed there; I was hoping he would. Instead of grilling me, it seems Epi is perplexed, and sees a possible nefarious reason for me to drop that sentiment. While this content still makes it difficult to assess alignment, since Epi has been inquisitive as either alignment, as well as balls-to-the-wall aggressive as either alignment, I can at least say it appears to me he is genuinely intrigued regarding my 180. No vibe points one way or the other just yet, but in combination with subsequent posts, this does assist my decision to issue an opinion of him.
Epignosis wrote:MovingPictures07 wrote:Epignosis wrote:MovingPictures07 wrote:***I would like to avoid voting a player completely new to The Syndicate on Day 1. I used to very vocally oppose those who took this view, but I have recently come around to this line of thinking. I do think it would suck to come to a new site and get lynched Day 1 your first game, so newbies will get a "free pass" from me, but only from my vote (not any suspicion I have), and if they are my top suspect going into Day 2, I will not hesitate to vote for a newbie.
Why? What changed your mind, that you should "very vocally oppose those who took this view" to "recently come around to this line of thinking?" The underlined was the exact same reasoning people gave, which you claim to have rejected that notion before, but now you are accepting it without offering any reason why.
That's a change of heart I was not expecting, especially slipped into a discussion about your history with Devin.
To put a finer point on it, I count exactly four brand new people in this.
If you are bad with any number of them, your change of heart excuses you from voting them Day 1 (i.e., putting your money where your mouth is) all the while leaving yourself open to distance ("Yes, I'm quite suspicious of NEWGUY but as I already said Day 0, I won't vote a new person").
What likelihood would you give to this being the case in this game?
I'll answer that question as soon as you point me to a single instance when probability ever did anything for me.
Null read still. This sentiment does jive with his recent attitude that his experimental flirtation with probability-focused scum hunting had received little serious weight from most other players at this site in recent games (i.e., Death Note).
Epignosis wrote:Making observations and asking questions is what a good little civilian is supposed to do. And I'm trying to be a good little civilian.
Instead of answering the question, you ask me a question about probability (the answer is 25% with anyone, just under 4% with a new person), then dodge the question a second time by asking me about my instinct regarding your "set of statements."
Is there a reason you're not forthcoming about my initial question?
First statement is WIFOM, null read from that. Second statement is an issuance of fact very in line with what I would expect him to say. The question at the end gives me a slightly civilian read, since he still seems genuinely intrigued as to why I changed my mind.
This is detective Epi, not reaction baiting Epi. Again, I realize that detective Epi can be civilian or mafia, and so can reaction baiting Epi (see Economics where I mistakenly thought reaction baiting Epi was mafia, when he wasn't).
MovingPictures07 wrote:Epignosis wrote:Making observations and asking questions is what a good little civilian is supposed to do. And I'm trying to be a good little civilian.
Instead of answering the question, you ask me a question about probability (the answer is 25% with anyone, just under 4% with a new person), then dodge the question a second time by asking me about my instinct regarding your "set of statements."
Is there a reason you're not forthcoming about my initial question?
Perhaps.
Epignosis wrote:OK then.
This is where I really could leave the live interaction with Epi and issue a statement on his alignment one way or the other, even if very slight. Instead of opting to aggressively pursue me further after my cryptic answer, he drops the issue completely. This indicated to me that Epi no longer had reason to believe pursuing this was worth his time.
Seeing as though we're dealing with detective Epi, since his behavior regarding Long Con, S~V~S, and practically the entire game can still be characterized as such, I felt and still feel comfortable in issuing Epi's hunting is coming from a genuine civilian-oriented mindset. Absolutely nothing about the way he handled the situation led me to see anything nefarious, in real time.
I recognize fully the amazing mafia capabilities of Epi, hence why my opinion is very slight. It could very well change at any time, in either direction. But it is an opinion nonetheless. And all of that said, I have played quite a number of games with Epi now, and while he is a very, very good player, he isn't perfect. I wanted to specifically set up a situation early on where I could interact with him in real time. I believe Epi has been putting forth a genuinely-seeming effort to baddie hunt and that his posts in live time interaction with me hold up to scrutiny. Could he have been genuinely interested as a mafia member? Sure. Could he be faking his baddie hunt? Easily. Of course, I still can't tell. I wanted to get discussion going, however, specifically from two players I have a hard time reading, and as Gumshoe noted, mafia is all about making assessments on other players, whether right or wrong. So I've made an assessment.
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1b) Why did S~V~S's reaction not match with what I anticipated?
I believe the way S~V~S handled the situation is most interesting.
To clarify for those who may not know, but S~V~S and I have a long and complicated (and lovely) mafia history, since we've played together for the past 5 years. She fooled me hard a few of the first handful of times we interacted, so I subsequently viewed her actions in many games we played thereafter with heavy scrutiny. We also tend to approach the game from opposite perspectives consistently, hence why it surprises me not at all that she hates rainbow lists, since I love them. For the longest time, I tunneled her game after game, sometimes opportunistically (as a mafia) and other times genuinely (as a civilian). After being consistently incorrect, especially as the latter, I have tried keeping that in mind in subsequent reassessments of her game, being much more cautious in my opinions of her. Lately, in reapproaching the game after Champs and playing at other sites again (most notably, RYM), I've been revamping my style, and I've been able to play with S~V~S in successfully call her out in a recent game (Biblical). Whether it was for the right reasons or not, she will contest, and I will recognize her objections.
That all may seem meaningless to many of you, but I'm willing to start a completely new leaf with S~V~S, and I'm going to try my absolute best not to tunnel her but not to ignore any assessment of her I do develop, just because I've been wrong many times before.
Here is how she responded:
S~V~S wrote:This has been an interesting discussion. I look forward to rereading it in depth tonight.
And re the not lynching nubs day one;in the past we were somewhat isolated, and if we had a nub playing it generally meant they had never played mafia at all before. And if you lynched them day one most never came back at all,Lol.
Unfortunately, she did not respond to my set of statements in real time, but it's very likely that she was at work, especially since this post seems to jive with what I know from her in RL in that it appears to be a phone post from work. Nonetheless, it's still a post, and still needs to be dissected.
Say what you will about 'interesting'. I tend to agree with
Sloonei that it is a word that many of us use regardless of alignment, but all the while noting that it can be utilized (and has been, I've seen it, and I've done it) by mafia in order to seem as though they're contributing:
What really gets me about this post and her subsequent posts thereafter is she never once acknowledges my 180. She did not play Economics so she would have been unaware that I even changed my mind in the slightest, or so I would assume.
I mean, look at this:
S~V~S wrote:Epignosis wrote:S~V~S wrote:Gumshoe & I both used the word "Interesting" as well.
I can't speak for LC or Gumshoe, but I thought todays discussion WAS interesting. You did not find it so, Epi? Out of all that discussion the only thing that caught your eye was one word?
Not really, no.
What of the discussion was interesting to you? You used the word, but you didn't say how.
You said you looked forward to rereading it, but you haven't done so. Instead, you are focusing on me.
My issue is not that people use the word, but that they don't explain. If you call something interesting, then say why. Otherwise, you are talking and not saying anything. If I say "S~V~S is suspicious," what you are going to do?
You're going to ask "Why?"
This is no different.
You posted a picture of llama's avatar, and now you're questioning me. This tells me nothing about what you found interesting before 4pm EST today. It leads me to believe you didn't really find anything interesting at all.
S~V~S wrote:This feels somewhat distractionary to me.
Oh here we are again. What am I distracting people from now? Not posting? Pizza Hut commercials?
S~V~S wrote:Either you don't want people to talk about the other discussion today, or maybe you're doing some rather fancy distancing with LC, since it is unlikely that he is going to get lynched over "interesting". Or maybe you are just doing some standard issue Epi mind games and intentionally enigmatic crap. Not sure which, maybe all, maybe none.
You've just named every possibility and then conceded there are other possibilities.
You speak, yet say nothing.
You are on my suspect list.
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nutella wrote:Epi, I disagree with your criticisms. True, "interesting" is kind of a vacuous term but I and others use it all the time. And I also say things like "I don't know what to think about [whatever interaction has been going on in the thread]" because I feel like such interactions merit acknowledgment/I feel like I have to comment on them regardless of my alignment.
So I'm right, but it's okay when you do it?
I reread it, and I still find it interesting. I want to see where it goes, and tbh, I found you jumping on a word to be MORE interesting. Which was why that was what I chose to comment on.
Which was perhaps your intention
And I am sure I will lay awake all night in fear at being on your suspect list.
She says "I reread it, and I still find it interesting. I want to see where it goes..." Still she said nothing about my 180.
I'm not really sure what to make of this, but it's not at all what I expected. Given our history of consistently disagreeing in thread, ESPECIALLY about this issue, I fully anticipated her to at least recognize my viewpoint or inquire about it or at least second Epi's inquiry as to why I have changed my mind, since I came around to the argument that she was unarguably the biggest proponent of. Even if she were either alignment, I expected SOMETHING.
But she acknowledged nothing of it. She never once even has acknowledged me, my rainbow reads, or anything about me. I find it very odd.
You know what's even more odd? She never once acknowledges any of it, but here she asks Golden what he thinks of me:
S~V~S wrote:Golden wrote:Epi just dropped the mic!
Now the case on SVS I sort of see. I could have used the word interesting in this thread, but the chances of me remembering whether I did or didn't is zero. Defending LC's use of the word while pointing out she did it herself I could definitely see as a potential move to make herself look better if LC flipped civ.
It's a little thing, but this is my first legitimate ping.
I did a search when Epi made a big deal of it, and three people had used it. I was one of them. When they came for me, to paraphrase that WW2 German pastor, there was no one left to speak for me. If Epi led a lynch on someone for use of a common word, I might be next.
Golden wrote:Also, are you eating bean dip?
This is fun. Epi reminds me of me when I think I've caught baddies on day zero.
And did you?
It reminds me of Epi in almost every game I have ever played with him, good or bad, with his cryptic Day One (or Zero as the case may be) gambits & mind games. Yoni, as TGG told me it was called (repeatedly
) during Biblical.
Golden wrote:Hey, for the first time ever I'm getting civ vibes from Epi!
I don't agree with the case on LC, but I do agree that this game has not gotten in the least bit interesting (linki - sorry SVS!).
For me, the most interesting post this game is the one Cobalt posted, which Timmer quoted above. I think there are quite a number of players in this game who could point to games where they have played the super-civvie. Especially invoking the 'my most recent game' thing... and all in a comment where he purports not to care if we vote for him. Do I see potential civilian motives for posting it? Yes. It's not easy to have a voice in a place where you are not known, so making a cred grab isn't necessarily inherently suspicious.
But civilians don't usually go around flashing their supatown credentials.
Now I found this post interesting. What about him gave you that civ vibe? His back & forth with MP? His vaguely sneering tone? If you are getting a civvie vibe from him, what do you think of MP?
I have not made my mind up on Epi, but I gotta say (and he knows it) that I loathe his fishing expeditions, the way he throws fake suspicions out early in the game to gauge reactions, then drops them after Day One.
And I don't like Rainbow lists, I don't like ANY lists this early in the game, especially with 2 mafias. With one mafia, the baddies already know who is who, or more precisely, who is a civ. Two mafias complicates things, and lists naming who people trust help the baddies at this stage; I will be happy to list those I don't trust, but not those that I do. And if I am alive to make a list later in the game, it will be not be a rainbow. We had a discussion about Rainbow lists in the mod forum, which prompted me to find my new nifty grey rainbow avatar. And I will look askew at those who use list posting as a litmus test.
If this is Day Zero Day One should be fabulous
S~V~S's behavior has given me GTH mafia vibes, rather than civilian ones. I don't see any genuine mafia hunting from her. In fact, she has the highest propensity to receive my vote at the moment. I will elaborate more later.
***But I want to hear what others think of my thoughts here in 1b in the meantime, please and thank you.
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2) Responses to Others' Posts (except Cobalt)
If you see your name underlined and bolded, it is addressed to YOU.
I hope DDL (well, I guess I missed that one, sorry buddy), Bass, and any others who were wondering what was going on with me re: 1) are satisfied. Consequently, I will not waste time responding to their posts if I feel the answers to their questions would have been answered in 1). If not, I will be happy to respond to any posts hereafter that are directed at me.
Devin the Omniscient wrote:MovingPictures07 wrote:Thanks for putting up with my extended interrogation, Devin. This certainly won't be the end, but I wanted to take advantage of you being here at the same time as myself, early on, to try and pick your brain.
You won't be getting my vote on Day 1 unless something drastically changes. Neither will Epi.
I wouldn't expect anything less, Buddy!
I do need to get back to work, though 
I will leave you with this for now: What make you of Cobalt's confidence coming into a new site? I will just say that I don't have a problem with confidence in general...
Welcome to you, too, Cobalt!!
, I will address this in my response to Cobalt. If you're curious what I think of Cobalt, note that I had him as my sole very slight mafia read in my rainbow list the last time I was in the thread, as well as my response to him. It will be in section 3). If you still have additional questions on this (or any other) matter, I'll address them subsequently.
nijuukyugou wrote:Oh good god, four pages on Day 0. Already gonna be a lot more talky than in Bible Mafia, I see. And the threat of more technicolor lists. Super :P
Comments on what's been commented on:
Voting newbie players on Day 1? I don't think I have much of an opinion on it. I don't actively avoid it, but I also don't actively go after new people in particular, as I do want them to stay. Hello, new people!
I'd like to see where these buddy-buddy so-called "truces" will end up (or is it just one "truce" between MP and his buddy?), but I personally think it's nothing right now.
That's all I can think of to say at the moment. No strong opinions on anyone just yet.
, you note in this post multiple "truces", but ask the question whether there is just one thereafter. Devin and I never agreed to a truce. Just wanted to clear that up.
You specifically note you have "no strong opinions". If that is the case, do you have weak opinions? If so, what are they?
sig wrote:@ MP I think my question was a good one, I've been in mafia games were people will do certain things which I find suspicious and I will point it out just to have someone tell me "oh so and so always does that" which makes me not only look like a fool but will also clutter the thread and has made me look like/ been accused of being scum. So it is always good to know ahead of time.
@ Cobalt yeah I saw you were here and I want to spread the Paradox
, I was not at all implying your question was not a good one or that it is worthless. If you got that impression, then that is my fault for making my tone seemingly imply as such.
Yes, I've been in many mafia games like that as well, and I figured that was your intention, but I wanted to hear your explanation.
You say it is always good to know ahead of time, sure. Answer this question for me: Do you think it is humanly possible for me to list of every instance of meta regarding every player on this site that you would need to know ahead of time so that you can make assessments with the same basis of knowledge as I have?
Long Con wrote:Epignosis wrote:MovingPictures07 wrote:***I would like to avoid voting a player completely new to The Syndicate on Day 1. I used to very vocally oppose those who took this view, but I have recently come around to this line of thinking. I do think it would suck to come to a new site and get lynched Day 1 your first game, so newbies will get a "free pass" from me, but only from my vote (not any suspicion I have), and if they are my top suspect going into Day 2, I will not hesitate to vote for a newbie.
Why? What changed your mind, that you should "very vocally oppose those who took this view" to "recently come around to this line of thinking?"
MovingPictures07 wrote:What likelihood would you give to this being the case in this game?
Epignosis wrote:I'll answer that question as soon as you point me to a single instance when probability ever did anything for me.
MovingPictures07 wrote:How about a different question:
If you had to choose, instinctively, do you believe my set of statements is due to the fact that I am indeed mafia with a new player on my team or due to some other reason?
Epignosis wrote:Is there a reason you're not forthcoming about my initial question?
MovingPictures07 wrote:Perhaps.
Epignosis wrote:OK then.
MovingPictures07 wrote:Devin the Omniscient wrote:Newbie to the site. And I agree with you there. But no more than Day 1 or 2. It should give us enough time to get to know the new player while giving us a chance to feel out everyone else.
Gun to head read (if you have to pick immediately), civilian or mafia, for Epignosis, me, and sig. Go.
Epignosis wrote:I'm telling you up front I ain't answering any of this GTH bullshit.
And I ain't doing any ISOs.
And I damn sure ain't doing no rainbows reads. I've got Reading Rainbow, and that's enough rainbow reading for me.
MovingPictures07 wrote:Fair enough, of course, you're free to play however you want.
....
That's a shoving match if I ever saw one. Would you prefer pissing contest? I was never that fond of that one... and it's only chicks that say they're "going to go and get a ruler", so I didn't want to use those euphamisms. Shoving match.
, you say this is a shoving match or pissing contest. Can you elaborate? Why do you characterize my posts, which were trying to garner discussion, as both a shoving match and "good to see"? I'm not sure how to reconcile those two separate thoughts.
Golden wrote:Not everyone loves supatown golden.
I do.
Regarding rainbow lists and such, I loved the technicolor lists from Biblical, and I even more love rainbow lists. That's just me. I don't get the hate at all. Nonetheless, regarding the requests from others, I will try to make my posts as easily readable as possible.
Golden, what are your thoughts? Suspects? Town reads? You have an impressive mafia brain, so don't mind while I stand here and pick it. I noted that you suspect S~V~S. Will you vote for her today? I noted you also have civ vibes from Epi and Gumshoe. What do you think of my observations above? Perhaps it would be best if you could build a spoilerized rainbow list of your current reads on everyone... if you feel so inclined.
Golden wrote:Sloonei wrote:How normal is it for people to be actively engaged in scum-hunting and gameplay during Day 0 around here?
It's normal if your name is Golden. But I'm not sure it's usually that normal generally.
, Golden does aggressively pursue suspects on Day 0, from what I have seen. I also have been known to engage in it somewhat, as well as Epi, if something catches my or his eye, respectively. FZ. would do so as well, but she isn't playing this game. For most players, Day 0 is not such a hunting period, almost all of the time.
Gumshoe wrote:Black Rock wrote:I do find it interesting that MP can so easily put a colour on Epig so early. I don't feel like he is looking more civ or less civ. It's basic Epig and I would rate him as neutral at this point.
I would quote you and SVS since you both said this but SVS had a superlong post and it's right there, people can look up.
I can't understand why the two of you are so anti-lists. Are you claiming you have no suspicions? No gut feelings? That you never have gut feelings Day 0/Day 1? I know, personally, I got gut feelings as soon as I entered the thread. I have gotten gut feelings off of a lot of people so far. It's not evidence (yet) and it's damn sure not proof but they're there.
Again, I feel much more comfortable playing devil's advocate on myself as I truly wish to be fair and talking things out in my own ways helps me understand new viewpoints, I can understand why you may not like the lists being posted publicly as in theory you're putting a hit on "trusted town". I put that in parenthesis because I would be shocked if a majority of us could agree on someone to trust this early on. Later in the game it could potentially be dangerous but this early on I don't think town members would care that much let alone the baddies.
Black Rock points out MP's list and, to me, there's nothing wrong with what he said. He gave two people the slightest town vibe he could. That seems entirely reasonable. Or is it just Epi that you have a problem with? Because I don't know the man but I'd give him the same color MP did if I made a list using MP's colors. Maybe even one shade farther than MP did.
Decisions have to made and they
will be made before we have proof. So every little read I get on someone helps. Some will be right and some will be wrong but I'm not ashamed of them. I may even put them in rainbow list form to counter the rainbow list hate I'm seeing. I didn't join this game expecting it to be hippies vs the Amish
Hello,
Gumshoe, mafia soulmate.
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3) Responses to Cobalt
Cobalt wrote:MovingPictures07 wrote:Cobalt wrote:My eye is on Devin almost immediately because of that joking truce thing. Mafia Cobalt tries to jokingly buddy up to people to see if they'd be receptive to it or not.
nutella wrote:Long Con wrote:
Here's the general rule I use with new players. If it comes down to a vote that's based on very little, I'll probably avoid going for them in the spirit of community friendliness. If there's a bigger or more stand-out suspicion on a new player, then I'll probably vote for them despite their newness.
Basically this
I don't give a fuck, y'all can vote for me whenever you want, if you want. Just keep in mind that the most recent mafia game I played my day 3 scum reads list was 5/6 accurate and I got MVP. I don't know you guys as well as that crowd but I do have decent instincts.
So because it is line with your mafia meta to do something, you extrapolate to mean that it is likely within someone else's meta, whom you've never met, as well?
Are you implying that we shouldn't vote for you because you have good instincts? What does that have to do with your alignment?
I actually missed this.
1. Meta is meta. If you really think every single person would have entirely different mafia strategies, note that it's likely impossible for there to be no overlap. Lots of different beginning of the game strategies that I've seen, people tend to overlap. ESPECIALLY people that I don't know, because it's a whole new field with all new players, but you're likely to see things you've seen before elsewhere.
2. I never said you shouldn't vote for me because I have good instincts, I was just trying to let you know I'm not a tentative newbie who's afraid to get their feet wet, in a few more words than that.
Cobalt wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Thanks for putting up with my extended interrogation, Devin. This certainly won't be the end, but I wanted to take advantage of you being here at the same time as myself, early on, to try and pick your brain.
You won't be getting my vote on Day 1 unless something drastically changes. Neither will Epi.
I don't like this post for some reason. It gives me bad vibes.
Cobalt wrote:
It's only a very slight mafia read. I'll roll with it. Nothing to really come at you for.
, I had to split up your post here into parts due to formatting reasons.
Response to first quote: Regarding 1., fair enough. What do you make of my opinion of him? Regarding 2., noted. However, can you see why the purpose of your statement can be seen as perhaps nefarious? So you're good, you didn't think that anyone else here is either? I could sit here and brag about my accomplishments, and so could many others, but none of us did so. So what was the real purpose of your statement? You say it was to say what you said in 2., but if that was the case, why not just say exactly what you said in 2.? I suppose I just don't understand your train of thought fully behind this.
Response to second quote: Can you elaborate in any way? Do you still feel this way after this post? If yes or no, why? Is there anything you want me to address?
Response to third quote: Noted. How do you think you would have reacted if it was a slight mafia read, moderate mafia read, or worse?
One last question: Can you fully elaborate your read on Long Con, please?
Thanks!
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4) General Observations
Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Golden wrote:Hedgeowl - if several people ended up voting for LC or SVS today, would you consider that there seemed to be good reasons for that, or are you saying that you find the reasons to suspect LC and SVS unconvincing?
Personally I think Epi is going a little overboard. Didn't see anything really terrible about Long Con, only fluff and a few posts that could be just semantics (the "interesting" thing). Long Con hasn't exactly been contributive, but hey's it's day 0. I wanna see how he'll be contributive as the game progresses.
(btw, is LC male or female?)
Not sure about SVS though, but I haven't done a focused read on his posts.
Is there a way to look only at a player's individual posts by clicking on a link like there was on Death and Taxes?
Note that DDL had no opinion of S~V~S. This could be relevant later, since S~V~S is currently a hot topic.
Turnip Head wrote:I have to admit I have no read in SVS at this point. I don't feel like I have enough information yet. Epi seems okay so far. Not sure about LC, he feels a bit squirrelly.
Also note that Turnip has no read on S~V~S.
Turnip Head wrote:I'm sensing a pattern with Hedgeowl's contributions here. All mechanics and mafia meta talk, nothing about the game.
Note that this forum does not like spoilers within spoilers, so I couldn't spoilerquote Turnip's case on Hedgeowl. His case can be found
here.
Regarding Hedgeowl, I note you have many valid observations here, which do affect my view of her, but note my hesitation to commit to more than a 'very slight' read of her because:
1) She hasn't played mafia consistently in a while.
2) Her last few games she has been less active, I presume due to RL.
3) I have seen her as a civilian slow to commit to game-related talk early in games.
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5) More on S~V~S
Golden wrote:As for the rest of this post. It really makes me only feel worse about SVS. Responses in pink
S~V~S wrote:Golden wrote:Epi just dropped the mic!
Now the case on SVS I sort of see. I could have used the word interesting in this thread, but the chances of me remembering whether I did or didn't is zero. Defending LC's use of the word while pointing out she did it herself I could definitely see as a potential move to make herself look better if LC flipped civ.
It's a little thing, but this is my first legitimate ping.
I did a search when Epi made a big deal of it, and three people had used it. I was one of them. When they came for me, to paraphrase that WW2 German pastor, there was no one left to speak for me. If Epi led a lynch on someone for use of a common word, I might be next.
Are you trying to suggest that you did not know you used the word interesting when you made that search? Then why did you make it? Isn't it a slightly odd thing to do to make a search of who used the word 'interesting'? Normally, if you disagreed with a word being suspicious, you would just say that - you wouldn't do a search. So we honest - did you remember you used it, or didn't you?
Golden wrote:Also, are you eating bean dip?
This is fun. Epi reminds me of me when I think I've caught baddies on day zero.
And did you?
Not relevant. When I said I got civ vibes from epi, I also said I didn't agree with his case on LC. It's about tone and approach, and this looks different to the way I'm used to epi questioning people.
It reminds me of Epi in almost every game I have ever played with him, good or bad, with his cryptic Day One (or Zero as the case may be) gambits & mind games. Yoni, as TGG told me it was called (repeatedly
) during Biblical.
You don't have to get civ vibes from epi - doesn't mean I can't.
Golden wrote:Hey, for the first time ever I'm getting civ vibes from Epi!
I don't agree with the case on LC, but I do agree that this game has not gotten in the least bit interesting (linki - sorry SVS!).
For me, the most interesting post this game is the one Cobalt posted, which Timmer quoted above. I think there are quite a number of players in this game who could point to games where they have played the super-civvie. Especially invoking the 'my most recent game' thing... and all in a comment where he purports not to care if we vote for him. Do I see potential civilian motives for posting it? Yes. It's not easy to have a voice in a place where you are not known, so making a cred grab isn't necessarily inherently suspicious.
But civilians don't usually go around flashing their supatown credentials.
Now I found this post interesting. What about him gave you that civ vibe? His back & forth with MP? His vaguely sneering tone? If you are getting a civvie vibe from him, what do you think of MP?
I have no read on MP. Nothing Epi did on MP had any relevance to me saying I got civ vibes from Epi, which given my timing on saying it (coming right after his case on LC) I think you know very well.
I have not made my mind up on Epi, but I gotta say (and he knows it) that I loathe his fishing expeditions, the way he throws fake suspicions out early in the game to gauge reactions, then drops them after Day One.
We don't know epi is going to drop anything after day 1 since it's still day 0.
And I don't like Rainbow lists, I don't like ANY lists this early in the game, especially with 2 mafias. With one mafia, the baddies already know who is who, or more precisely, who is a civ. Two mafias complicates things, and lists naming who people trust help the baddies at this stage; I will be happy to list those I don't trust, but not those that I do. And if I am alive to make a list later in the game, it will be not be a rainbow. We had a discussion about Rainbow lists in the mod forum, which prompted me to find my new nifty grey rainbow avatar. And I will look askew at those who use list posting as a litmus test.
I can appreciate that perspective. I took the same one into economics, and I got grumpy with people for wanting me to reveal too much of my thinking too early. I'm certainly not going to be making rainbow lists at an early stage in this game. BUT I'll consider making them later, and I don't begrudge those who do for making them.
If this is Day Zero Day One should be fabulous
All up - this post is exactly the kind of thing I expect from you if you are bad - you are throwing out generalisations to discredit epi, stuff like suggesting he will drop the suspicion after day 1. People who don't know epi, by the way, are picking up on this and it's making them think twice about epi. That's not necessarily a terrible thing, but certainly it's bad if people are only thinking you are bad because epi told them to...
For me there are two separate things in play. One is
the case on SVS. One is
Epi's alignment. I don't think you are bad because I think epi is civ. I think you are bad because I think your own posts make you look that way.
I find Golden's observations here valid and I agree with them.
S~V~S wrote:Epignosis wrote:We are only in Day 0. So far, regarding me, S~V~S has stated or implied that:
1. I am trying to get people who used a certain word lynched
2. I am playing mind games to trick people
3. I am making a cryptic gambit
4. I am throwing out fake suspicions as part of a fishing expedition
5. I am distracting people (from what has yet to be articulated)
6. I am possibly distancing from Long Con
That's a lot of commentary for a Day 0 on one person.
I said there are a lot of explanations for your behavior. Tell me o brilliant one how this makes me bad? It doesn't.
I don't like this defense by S~V~S at all. It's not even a defense, really, it's shrugging off posts by Epi, where he already has been saying why he thinks she's bad. Instead of responding to those, S~V~S tries to flip it around on Epi here.
Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:That is an inordinately high number of suspicions to develop in such an early phase of the game. I've never played with SVS before and do not know anything about their usual playstyle, so I do not know quite what to make of all this yet. But I've found this Day 0 to be pretty interesting.
To be fair to S~V~S, only a couple of those items could be construed as "suspicions." I do try to keep things fresh (for myself at least) whenever a new game starts, and that has led to me using tactics and techniques that may seem unorthodox. That much is true.
But what doesn't smell right is this: If my Day 0 suspicions aren't genuine (i.e., mind games, fishing expeditions, cryptic gambits), then why does she feel the need to say the following?
S~V~S wrote:I did a search when Epi made a big deal of it, and three people had used it. I was one of them. When they came for me, to paraphrase that WW2 German pastor, there was no one left to speak for me. If Epi led a lynch on someone for use of a common word, I might be next.
This implies that I *could* lead a lynch against someone for using a common word, and that S~V~S believes that if I campaign against people using that word (I'm not, because that's a terrible simplification of my Long Con suspicion), I'll eventually get to her, as though I am capable of directing the thread as some rhetorical Pantokrator...
...yet...
S~V~S wrote:This feels somewhat distractionary to me. Either you don't want people to talk about the other discussion today, or maybe you're doing some rather fancy distancing with LC, since it is unlikely that he is going to get lynched over "interesting". Or maybe you are just doing some standard issue Epi mind games and intentionally enigmatic crap. Not sure which, maybe all, maybe none.
Despite implying that I could lynch all the people who had (up to that point) used the word "interesting," S~V~S says that it's unlikely Long Con will get lynched over "interesting."
So either I am serious about my suspicions but feeble to do anything about them, or I am faking my suspicions and S~V~S fears she will be on a list of people taken out by them.
These two ideas are not compatible.
I would like to hear elaboration from S~V~S on this issue, since I agree that the ideas are not compatible.
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6) Updated Rainbow List
This is how I am currently feeling about everyone in the game:
MovingPictures07 wrote:TASTE THE RAINBOW
Devin the Omniscient
Epignosis
Bass_the_Clever
birdwithteeth11
Black Rock
Bullzeye
DFaraday
Dragon D. Luffy
DREAM
fingersplints
Golden
Gumshoe
Long Con
Metalmarsh89
Neverwhere
nijuukyugou
nutella
Scotty
sig
Sloonei
timmer
TinyBubbles
Turnip Head
XthAtGAm3RGuYX
Cobalt
Hedgeowl
S~V~S
For reference:
Very strong civilian read
Strong civilian read
Moderate civilian read
Slight civilian read
Very slight civilian read
No read or unsure
Very slight mafia read
Slight mafia read
Moderate mafia read
Strong mafia read
Very strong mafia read
If any of you want elaboration regarding any number of these reads, please ask.
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Yikes!! This took way too much time. Again, please note my RL restrictions going forward, specifically the fact that I will be out of town Thursday through Sunday. I will try my best to continue contributing nonetheless.
I need to go now, but I'll be back once more just to read and vote, since I have to do homework, clean the apartment, and pack for tomorrow.
Linki w/ Golden: Here I am.
