The Syndicate

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:45 pm i am not going to answer any questions that epi asks me from now until the end of the game because he's a douche gg

[mention]nutella[/mention]

To be clear, this happened:

MacDougall claimed this:

Hally was townreading me and I love playing with her.

I said to proto (who asked in reference to Mac killing new people):

Hally is not new to Mac.

You asked Mac this:

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:22 pm @MacDougall have you actually played with hally before this game? I thought this was your first game with them but I could be wrong?

Mac said:

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:29 pm
this was the first game i think but i immediately fell in love

"This was the first game I think but I immediately fell in love."

I am just copying that again for clarity's sake.

Then I post my query:

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:35 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:29 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:22 pm @MacDougall have you actually played with hally before this game? I thought this was your first game with them but I could be wrong?

this was the first game i think but i immediately fell in love

"And I love playing with her."

I don't know how you can love playing with someone you've never played with.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:37 pm

i am playing two games with her at teh same time and it has been lovely whats so hard dipshit?

That directly contradicts what Mac said to nutella.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:37 pm epi just fuck off please

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:39 pmLink?

I ask for a link to prove what Mac is saying.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:41 pm im busy, ill be back later

Mac is suddenly busy and fucks off.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:45 pm i am not going to answer any questions that epi asks me from now until the end of the game because he's a douche gg

Bonus.

Well do whatever you want to do. Mac shouldn't treat me like shit.

epi

just drop this line please

Just being fucking transparent would be enough.

ISO Hally, ctrl f Mac, understand why I loved her

this is such a dumb line honestly

I'm really tired of being told what I can and can't talk about. If I am not free to explore my suspicions as I would like, then what am I to do?

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:53 pm Well do whatever you want to do. Mac shouldn't treat me like shit.

I cannot deal with the way you approach me. It's not the first time you've pissed me off with your tone and it won't be the last.

"I'll be waiting." is just such eyerrollingly lame shit.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:56 pm I'm really tired of being told what I can and can't talk about. If I am not free to explore my suspicions as I would like, then what am I to do?

Do whatever you want and I will also be free to tell you off for it. It's been our dynamic for years and last I checked we had no agreement to the contrary.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:12 pm 1. To my own experience, dunya doesn't do this. I looked over what games I could here to see if I could find evidence to the contrary and could not. For me, this would be the first time I witnessed dunya killing a new person on the Syndicate Night 1, and if she's guilty of that, very well, but I'll never make the same mistake twice.

2. Mac does whatever the fuck he wants, and don't let him tell you otherwise. He's a scoundrel. He's a fine soundrel, but a scoundrel nonetheless.

3. I want new people to stick around. And I get no fun out of killing them right away when I've not had the chance of fucking with them first.

Is it weird answer number 3 makes me worried? I'm not townreading you because of Hally. I'm townreading you on the basis that your code is real, and a person with this code doesn't call a new person an autist for towncred. I'm assuming this is so far out of your mafia range it's literally offensive to you as a concept.

[mention]nutella[/mention] can you confirm my theory is sound?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:56 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:53 pm Well do whatever you want to do. Mac shouldn't treat me like shit.

I cannot deal with the way you approach me. It's not the first time you've pissed me off with your tone and it won't be the last.

"I'll be waiting." is just such eyerrollingly lame shit.

Oh, you can't take it? If it's eyerollingly lame, then roll your eyes and move on. Instead you've got to be a dick.

protocultures wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:57 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:12 pm 1. To my own experience, dunya doesn't do this. I looked over what games I could here to see if I could find evidence to the contrary and could not. For me, this would be the first time I witnessed dunya killing a new person on the Syndicate Night 1, and if she's guilty of that, very well, but I'll never make the same mistake twice.

2. Mac does whatever the fuck he wants, and don't let him tell you otherwise. He's a scoundrel. He's a fine soundrel, but a scoundrel nonetheless.

3. I want new people to stick around. And I get no fun out of killing them right away when I've not had the chance of fucking with them first.

Is it weird answer number 3 makes me worried? I'm not townreading you because of Hally. I'm townreading you on the basis that your code is real, and a person with this code doesn't call a new person an autist for towncred. I'm assuming this is so far out of your mafia range it's literally offensive to you as a concept.

@nutella can you confirm my theory is sound?

Epi is town and there is never and will never be any reason to remotely reconsider that

i am at work and sneak playing while staff and managers come in and stare at me with this "wtf are you ignoring me to post on forums" look but i cant help it because i am an addict and you are egging me on

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:57 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:56 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:53 pm Well do whatever you want to do. Mac shouldn't treat me like shit.

I cannot deal with the way you approach me. It's not the first time you've pissed me off with your tone and it won't be the last.

"I'll be waiting." is just such eyerrollingly lame shit.

Oh, you can't take it? If it's eyerollingly lame, then roll your eyes and move on. Instead you've got to be a dick.

"can't take it" has shades to it

if "piss me off and make me insult you" = "can't take it" then sure

but I think there is room for interpretation there

I'm out.

Figure this one out on your own.

Mention me if you want a bunker protection, nutella, but I'm done here. I'm tired of being a punching bag and being told what I should and should not talk about or say.

I did feel the need to be a dick I dunno why. I don't always turn the other cheek. I'm not a good Christian boi like you.

I don't know the history but a lot of.comments felt unnecessarily rude Mac.

protocultures wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:14 am I don't know the history but a lot of.comments felt unnecessarily rude Mac.

yeah i know im a prick im sorry epi

[mention]Epignosis[/mention] come back. I issue you with an unreserved apology for my toxic and terrible aggressive behaviour. I lost control of my emotions and it was not your fault.

why is it that every time I'm feeling well the game is a desert but whenever I get sick or inactive for even one day there's like 20 posts immediately

my posts I mean pages

dunya wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:06 pm no.

think of it this way, you don' know much about me but maybe you know i get emotionally invested in the game and players i play with. hally is a brand new player on the syndicate, and she replaced into a game with 20+ pages and made an effort to catch up on those and make maybe more than 100 posts. do you think, based on what you know about my personality, i would feel comfortable deciding hally has to be the n1 kill? remember, i was here for all of n1. from start till finish. i couldn't have been blindsided by my scumteam because i wasn't around to chip in. i was around.

of course, you can all claim wifom, but it's a principle for me, not just a silly meta read. i play dozens of games every year; do you think, logically, i'd burn myself to win one game if i were an alien here?

I believe that dunya genuinely has this principle and is unlikely to throw it away just for an advantage in one game.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:33 pm I mean, to Proto: I would bet harder on you and Epi being unaligned than I'd bet on any other pair.

Actually I would bet super hard on Proto and Epi being the same alignment :P

I assume you meant "I would bet harder that these two aren't the scum team", which I agree with.

why has carot just mysteriously vanished off everyone's scum radars when she has done basically nothing to clear her as town? I really want to say that the second scum is someone who originally scumread her and then suddeny flipped around on her when the timing was convenient, but the two biggest people who did that are dunya and proto and they're probably both town so. Either I'm missing some really townie post(s) from carot or people are just forgetting about her because she fell off the radar.

dunya wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:26 pm

protocultures wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:11 pm Its like frustration or paranoia or anger. I dont know. I dont understand why you would be angry.

before i respond, i am not at all angry. don't know how you thought it's anger, sorry if it came across like that!

i am definitely paranoid of you pocketing us. the ridiculous kill dizzyxdunyaxtonyxme plan, your insistence that aliens were in there, and then this push of mac instead of sabie who i can actively scum read as an alien partner to anyone else in the game definitely made me reasses. i gave you an easy pass because you seem genuinely mechanically solving, but mechanical solves don't tell me much about your agenda in the same way as player pushes go. and you've admitted to nanook on numerous occasions that you are still within your wolf meta.

i took you for granted being town, but i don't want to do that, i've decided.

I don't buy this case on proto. His posts are just super pure, even if you disagree with them (like the dizzy/dunya/tony/proto plan) and I think he just genuinely believes in them. I can connect with what he's saying on a lot of levels and I've had like a low level of mindmeld with him all game. Not in the sense that our reads are the same, but we're running on the same wavelength and thinking in the same processes (if that makes sense). I don't believe scum proto can simulate a mindmeld to that degree so consistently.

dunya wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:37 pm awww i feel like i love carot this night phase.

what has carot done that night phase? I really don't get it, I read through her posts and it's a bunch of fluff and mech stuff. Like the only real gamesolving post she made was pushing me and mac as partners

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:40 pm I need everyone to give a crystal fucking clear read list as well as exact count of remaining protections

in order from towniest to scummiest

Epi
Proto
Dunya
Mac
TSP
Carot

I have 3 remaining protections. I protected you when ordered and have holstered all other nights.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:45 pm Dunya said something that fmpov was a scumslip. When she said "mac is compatible with everyone". I am literally compatible with nobody and Dunya would see that if she was town.

this isn't what a scumslip means

a scumslip is when a player says something that it is impossible for them to know or say unless they are scum. eg. nobody died last night, and some player comes in and goes "huh, why did the aliens shoot X?" before anyone has claimed a protect - that is a scumslip because there is absolutely no way for them to know that X was shot before protects are claimed.

even if you think you are compatible with nobody there's no reason why dunya can't have a different opinion if she is town, unless you two have a very strong meta of mindmelding each other as town or something.

you're not incorrect about the first thing but also who cares

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:19 pm i think it's exactly dunya/carot or they are both town

I don't understand this read at all

like if dunya is town, carot is also town...?

if carot is town, that somehow makes your suspicion of dunya for not reading you properly go away?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:19 pm alison/proto maybe?

I wish. would love to be on a wolf team with proto someday

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:29 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:19 pm i think it's exactly dunya/carot or they are both town

I don't understand this read at all

like if dunya is town, carot is also town...?

if carot is town, that somehow makes your suspicion of dunya for not reading you properly go away?

i dont understand it either sometimes i make reads with parts of my being that are maybe not my actual brain

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:30 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:23 pm I don't think it's tony I think it's proto but i think you are on the right track carot

the hally and sabie kills make sense to be proto/alison

proto has been the one pushing to read heavily into the "would mac kill new players" angle a lot

hmmn the point that points heavily against proto in my mind is that the N2 no-kill was a really really bad mechanical play from the aliens.

Also remember that I sent a bunker save for Epignosis. I'm like 99% sure it's the explanation of why sabie is the only nk

If Carot flips Alien I am going to develop a "saved Epignosis" tell.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:45 pm i am not going to answer any questions that epi asks me from now until the end of the game because he's a douche gg

horrible post

"I'm not going to talk to the biggest consensus townread because he's a douche" (he wasn't) is like D1 macdougall levels of anti-town. This is an awful way of playing mafia. If you think Epi is asking you about stuff that he has no right asking then you can say so, but completely refusing to talk to him or answer his questions is just bad.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:52 am "I'm not going to talk to the biggest consensus townread because he's a douche" (he wasn't) is like D1 macdougall levels of anti-town. This is an awful way of playing mafia. If you think Epi is asking you about stuff that he has no right asking then you can say so, but completely refusing to talk to him or answer his questions is just bad.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:25 am @Epignosis come back. I issue you with an unreserved apology for my toxic and terrible aggressive behaviour. I lost control of my emotions and it was not your fault.

good post

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:29 am you're not incorrect about the first thing but also who cares

I mean the rest of my point still stands really, you have to actually explain why town dunya would read you as town here because I really don't get it.

yes twas an embarrassing momentary lapse in my usual fabulous judgement and not worth talking about hey look a cookie

the scum team is probably just carot/TSP laughing their asses off in the wolf chat while mac/dunya/epi go at it tbh

none of this feels particularly forced and none of it feels productive, which means that it's just townies engaging in anti-town behavior while scum ghost the thread and leave them to it

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:56 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:29 am you're not incorrect about the first thing but also who cares

I mean the rest of my point still stands really, you have to actually explain why town dunya would read you as town here because I really don't get it.

dunya and i have been playing mafia together for nearly a decade

i am incompatible with anyone. i am in my town meta. she would know this. she is not in her town meta.

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:15 pm

protocultures wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:12 pm

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:03 pm

protocultures wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:00 pm

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:52 pm MECHANICAL REMINDER : There's only *one* misfire possibility before N6.

Kinda depends if aliens screw up.

I don't think anyone in this game as an alien does the wrong mechanical play.

Like claim a save?

Yeah, it's always better to let 2 persons die.

This was a joke about you being mafia btw.

Unsure how to take your nonchalant implied response about it being wifom

protocultures wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:07 pm So another flurry of activity.

Interesting takeaways for me.

People are lying about meta. I don't know what is true but I know someone is lying. There is a team of 2 possible so it's even more confusing.

I would love for all answers to be in one place. I know I have had partial answers but please allow me to ask in one place to focus everyone in these answers. I think we find an alien once we find them in a lie.

@nutella @dunya @Epignosis @MacDougall

If someone else knows their meta, please also answer.

Can you each answer every question or say you don't know. Can you also comment in your view as to veracity of answers from others.

1. Dunya doesn't kill Hally as mafia.
2. Mac doesn't kill Hally as mafia.
3. Epi doesn't kill Hally as mafia.

Lets play spot the potential liar.

your views are "are they telling the truth or lying/misleading?".

1. Dunya doesn't kill Hally as mafia.

1(a) Epi: To my own experience, dunya doesn't do this. I looked over what games I could here to see if I could find evidence to the contrary and could not. For me, this would be the first time I witnessed dunya killing a new person on the Syndicate Night 1, and if she's guilty of that, very well, but I'll never make the same mistake twice.
1(a)(i) Nutella views on Epi's response: TBC
1(a)(ii) Dunya views on Epi's response: TBC
1(a)(iii) Mac views on Epi's response: TBC

1(b) Nutella: I think there is plenty of compelling reasoning for her to have done so here.
1(b)(i) Epis views on Nutella's response: TBC (less needed because Nutella shouldnt be lying unless to reaction test)
1(b)(ii) Dunya views on Nutella's response: TBC (less needed because Nutella shouldnt be lying unless to reaction test)
1(b)(iii) Mac views on Nutella's response: TBC (less needed because Nutella shouldnt be lying unless to reaction test)

1(c) Dunya: implied never
1(c)(i) Epi views on Dunya's response: TBC
1(c)(ii) Nutella views on Dunya's response: TBC
1(c)(iii) Mac views on Dunya's response: TBC

1(d) Mac: implied never
1(d)(i) Epi views on Mac's response: TBC
1(d)(ii) Nutella views on Mac's response: TBC
1(d)(iii) Dunya views on Mac's response: TBC


2. Mac doesn't kill Hally as mafia.

2(a) Epi: Mac does whatever the fuck he wants, and don't let him tell you otherwise. He's a scoundrel. He's a fine soundrel, but a scoundrel nonetheless.
2(a)(i) Nutella views on Epi's response: TBC
2(a)(ii) Dunya views on Epi's response: TBC
2(a)(iii) Mac views on Epi's response: TBC

2(b) Nutella: Don't think he does.
2b(i) Epis views on Nutella's response: TBC (less needed because Nutella shouldnt be lying unless to reaction test)
2bI(ii) Dunya views on Nutella's response: TBC (less needed because Nutella shouldnt be lying unless to reaction test)
2b(iii) Mac views on Nutella's response: TBC (less needed because Nutella shouldnt be lying unless to reaction test)

2(c) Dunya: TBC
2(c)(i) Epi views on Epi's response: TBC
2(c)(ii) Nutella views on Epi's response: TBC
2(c)(iii) Mac views on Epi's response: TBC

2(d) Mac - TBC
2(d)(i) Epi views on Mac's response: TBC
2(d)(ii) Nutella views on Mac's response: TBC
2(d)(iii) Dunya views on Mac's response: TBC


3. Epi doesn't kill Hally as mafia.

3(a) Epi: I want new people to stick around. And I get no fun out of killing them right away when I've not had the chance of fucking with them first.
2(a)(i) Nutella views on Epi's response: TBC
2(a)(ii) Dunya views on Epi's response: TBC
2(a)(iii) Mac views on Epi's response: TBC

3(b) Nutella: 1000% never does.
3(b)(i) Epis views on Nutella's response: TBC (less needed because Nutella shouldnt be lying unless to reaction test)
3(b)(ii) Dunya views on Nutella's response: TBC (less needed because Nutella shouldnt be lying unless to reaction test)
3(b)(iii) Mac views on Nutella's response: TBC (less needed because Nutella shouldnt be lying unless to reaction test)

3(c) Dunya: TBC
3(c)(i) Epi views on Dunya's response: TBC
3(c)(ii) Nutella views on Dunya's response: TBC
3(c)(iii) Mac views on Dunya's response: TBC

3(d) Mac - TBC
3(d)(i) Epi views on Mac's response: TBC
3(d)(ii) Nutella views on Mac's response: TBC
3(d)(iii) Dunya views on Mac's response: TBC

Some additional thoughts.

Mac and Epi scum theatre theory. I'm having trouble believing Mac's lapse in judgement excuse here, so my spidey sense is going off like level 7. If we can believe it, theres a really low chance of Mac being wolf if Epi is town. Its almost clearing if Epi is never mafia. Im a little scared of Epi being mafia again.



[mention]nutella[/mention]
[mention]dunya[/mention]

Thoughts on the above?

Obviously everyone else can have views as well, but think they have the most meta with Mac.

My thoughts on potential partner pair within Dunya/Mac/Epi

Epi/Mac - scum theatre for the win? You either believe scum theatre or Mac is town. I refuse to believe Mac makes those posts ever as mafia.

Epi/Dunya - gg well played, I still lose because I can never find Epi

Dunya/Mac - I can see this as distancing between Mac and Dunya

This isnt based on iso or hard work, just where my brain happens to be right now.

I refuse to believe Mac makes those posts ever as mafia (if Epi is town) - edit in parentheses

7 alive, lets look at all the potential partner combos and give our quickfire thoughts.

This should become easier after everyone completes the "spot the liar" exercise to see if anyone is cleared by consensus (doesnt kill Hally) or someone is lying by consensus.

Alison
Carotenoid
Dunya
Epignosis
Mac
Proto
TSP

Alison - Carotenoid: possible. distancing all game
Alison - Dunya: possible
Alison - Epignosis: unlikely purely because epi is town
Alison - Mac: possible
Alison - Proto: no from my pov
Alison - TSP: never thought of it before and dont remember any interaction (im probably wrong)
Carotenoid - Dunya: possible
Carotenoid - Epignosis: unlikely purely because epi is town
Carotenoid - Mac: possible
Carotenoid - Proto: no from my pov
Carotenoid - TSP: never thought of it before and dont remember any interaction (im probably wrong)
Dunya - Epignosis: unlikely purely because epi is town
Dunya - Mac: very possible
Dunya - Proto: no from my pov
Dunya - TSP: Anyone remember my old plan? Very possible
Epignosis - Mac: You must believe in scum theatre
Epignosis - Proto: no from my pov
Epignosis - TSP: unlikely purely because epi is town but if there is a world where Epi is an alien, I think TSP is a likely partner
Mac - Proto: no from my pov
Mac - TSP: possible
Proto - TSP: no from my pov

I think Epi and me are being townread by most. If you remove us from the pool, the potential pairs look like this. Its only because its easier to conceptualise a list when its smaller. Yes it looks scummy to push worlds where I am not in it (or Epi if you think we might be partners). If you dislike it, I have left the whole list above intentionally for this purpose.

Alison - Carotenoid: possible. distancing all game
Alison - Dunya: possible
Alison - Mac: possible
Alison - TSP: never thought of it before and dont remember any interaction (im probably wrong)
Carotenoid - Dunya: possible
Carotenoid - Mac: possible
Carotenoid - TSP: never thought of it before and dont remember any interaction (im probably wrong)
Dunya - Mac: very possible now imo with the hard bussing in F7
Dunya - TSP: Anyone remember my old plan? Very possible
Mac - TSP: possible

Nobody seems to have read into the Sabie kill at all. Sabie is not new, has played here before, but hasnt played in a while. I feel like it makes it less likely that people who knew Sabie from before would kill them so quick knowing they havent played in a while. I feel like it should put more suspicion on new people and less suspicion on people like Dunya/Mac/Epi. Not sure if I should be counting TSP in here as well for this.

Who I actually think the best shots are today, in no particular order.

Mac - Epi says Mac would shoot Hally. I think. If this is true, Mac coasts all game and only starts spam posting theories when he is under pressure. I dont believe they believe they can have no partners. What even is that logic. Thats just a gaslight attempt onto town. Not really sure what to read into Mac suspecting me. I dont think Mac respects my scumgame enough to have a real suspicion on me. Also fits into every world from my pov. You MUST believe Mac/Epi was scum theatre though because again, I cannot see Mafia Mac doing this to town Epi. If Mac flips alien, I think we should reallly reallly really look at Epi again.

Dunya - Nutella says they might shoot Hally. If this is true, I can get behind this kill. Been hard to read all game for me. I feel like they tried to pocket me early on and are now suspecting me for towncredit since I said I would give more towncred for people who do in fact suspect me. Also fits in every world with high likelihood with Mac AND TSP from my pov. If they flip mafia, think we need to consider Alison more strongly as a partner given the "stop patronising me" post. Otherwise I am just fine ignoring Alison for remainder of game as a potential alien because we only have 3 shots left according to Carotenoid. Should also look into TSP heavily as well if Dunya flips alien.

Carotenoid - You are a distant third behind Mac and Dunya but way ahead of Alison/TSP. You are not a syndicat so have license to kill Hally and are more likely to have killed Sabie.

I am not against shooting TSP, but given we have 3 shots, think we get more info shooting Dunya first.

I am against shooting Alison first for similar reasons.

Dont shoot Epi and dont shoot me. I think Epi is town.

anything i say will be considered "emotional manipulation" so i wont even begin talking about whether or not i kill sabie in this game.

apparently, nutella has figured the game out and i am lock-scum with very compelling reasons to kill hally. i don't know what those reasons are, but neither has anyone else questioned her on that point, so i won't either cos my "emotional manipulation" makes her sick and she'd rather i stop posting itt.

feel free to iso me after eod and figure shit out.