The Syndicate

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:15 pm So like... how we all feelin' about Sloonei?

Lock town.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:15 pm So like... how we all feelin' about Sloonei?

Lock town.

Weird, I've gotten very different vibes from him.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:20 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:15 pm So like... how we all feelin' about Sloonei?

Lock town.

Weird, I've gotten very different vibes from him.

I'll let others talk you off that ledge.

But of course I am an open book if you have pressing questions.

Sloonei’s town

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:23 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:20 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:15 pm So like... how we all feelin' about Sloonei?

Lock town.

Weird, I've gotten very different vibes from him.

I'll let others talk you off that ledge.

Well, you're definitely a tomorrow problem rather than a today problem, but I feel like you might be a wolf that accidentally got stuck on Owner.

For the record, this next paragraph is written to Sloonei, but the intended audience is the rest of the thread.

For someone who was voting Owner before I came in and told everyone to vote owner, you've given me a ton of resistance every step of the way, and I've felt you've tried to distract and discredit me multiple times, while also getting the feeling that you REALLY wanted to know what I have on her. And not in like a "town wants to have their own evidence" sort of way, but in a "scum wants to know if their scumbuddy has wiggle room" kind of way (she doesn't). After Alison asked me if I had mech, and I told her, you said that's all you were asking... but it is NOT what you were asking. You asked me specific questions that reeked like you wanted to fish for information.

Now, your story about having been given a gift kind of fits how you've been playing, but even then, I don't remember who it was, but you got into a spat with someone about that and seemed strangely defensive about it. Almost as if you jumped at an opportunity to try to clear Owner, but then kind of realized that your story didn't make much sense and backtracked (Owner wouldn't have targeted you, blah blah blah).

Sorry, I really just don't feel great about you, and seeing you on Made's wagon, seeing how it was Made/Nutella/Owner, trying to figure out where the wolves were, it just kind of made (pun intended) everything click.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:31 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:23 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:20 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:15 pm So like... how we all feelin' about Sloonei?

Lock town.

Weird, I've gotten very different vibes from him.

I'll let others talk you off that ledge.

Well, you're definitely a tomorrow problem rather than a today problem, but I feel like you might be a wolf that accidentally got stuck on Owner.

For the record, this next paragraph is written to Sloonei, but the intended audience is the rest of the thread.

For someone who was voting Owner before I came in and told everyone to vote owner, you've given me a ton of resistance every step of the way, and I've felt you've tried to distract and discredit me multiple times, while also getting the feeling that you REALLY wanted to know what I have on her. And not in like a "town wants to have their own evidence" sort of way, but in a "scum wants to know if their scumbuddy has wiggle room" kind of way (she doesn't). After Alison asked me if I had mech, and I told her, you said that's all you were asking... but it is NOT what you were asking. You asked me specific questions that reeked like you wanted to fish for information.

Now, your story about having been given a gift kind of fits how you've been playing, but even then, I don't remember who it was, but you got into a spat with someone about that and seemed strangely defensive about it. Almost as if you jumped at an opportunity to try to clear Owner, but then kind of realized that your story didn't make much sense and backtracked (Owner wouldn't have targeted you, blah blah blah).

Sorry, I really just don't feel great about you, and seeing you on Made's wagon, seeing how it was Made/Nutella/Owner, trying to figure out where the wolves were, it just kind of made (pun intended) everything click.

I'm not like super confident about this, but it has been something I felt weird about with Sloonei a few times today, and then just seeing those wagons really drove the point home in my mind. Definitely worth a careful look.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:15 pm So like... how we all feelin' about Sloonei?

JJJ says he's town so he is.

Also he's been townie on play.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:31 pm For someone who was voting Owner before I came in and told everyone to vote owner, you've given me a ton of resistance every step of the way, and I've felt you've tried to distract and discredit me multiple times, while also getting the feeling that you REALLY wanted to know what I have on her. And not in like a "town wants to have their own evidence" sort of way, but in a "scum wants to know if their scumbuddy has wiggle room" kind of way (she doesn't). After Alison asked me if I had mech, and I told her, you said that's all you were asking... but it is NOT what you were asking. You asked me specific questions that reeked like you wanted to fish for information.

I uh... don't know where you got this impression. I have tried to get clarification out of you for my own peace of mind. I am a player who likes to leave no stone unturned. I do not recall offering specific resistance to you, but I did spend some time trying to engage in pro-owner arguments for that sake.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:31 pm Now, your story about having been given a gift kind of fits how you've been playing, but even then, I don't remember who it was, but you got into a spat with someone about that and seemed strangely defensive about it. Almost as if you jumped at an opportunity to try to clear Owner, but then kind of realized that your story didn't make much sense and backtracked (Owner wouldn't have targeted you, blah blah blah).

Kito. I am too sensitive to suspicion against me. I am a player who tends to get tinfoiled a lot. Kito's theory about my claim was absurd. That's the word I will continue to use. If you are under the impression that my claim was originally intended as a plan to save Owner (Why the hell would I do that in the first place?), have a look at the original post where I claimed.: "I do not think I would have been Owner's target. She was more suspicious of me than not on Day 1." I do not think there should be any way that is construed as "an opportunity to try to clear Owner."

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:33 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:31 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:23 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:20 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:15 pm So like... how we all feelin' about Sloonei?

Lock town.

Weird, I've gotten very different vibes from him.

I'll let others talk you off that ledge.

Well, you're definitely a tomorrow problem rather than a today problem, but I feel like you might be a wolf that accidentally got stuck on Owner.

For the record, this next paragraph is written to Sloonei, but the intended audience is the rest of the thread.

For someone who was voting Owner before I came in and told everyone to vote owner, you've given me a ton of resistance every step of the way, and I've felt you've tried to distract and discredit me multiple times, while also getting the feeling that you REALLY wanted to know what I have on her. And not in like a "town wants to have their own evidence" sort of way, but in a "scum wants to know if their scumbuddy has wiggle room" kind of way (she doesn't). After Alison asked me if I had mech, and I told her, you said that's all you were asking... but it is NOT what you were asking. You asked me specific questions that reeked like you wanted to fish for information.

Now, your story about having been given a gift kind of fits how you've been playing, but even then, I don't remember who it was, but you got into a spat with someone about that and seemed strangely defensive about it. Almost as if you jumped at an opportunity to try to clear Owner, but then kind of realized that your story didn't make much sense and backtracked (Owner wouldn't have targeted you, blah blah blah).

Sorry, I really just don't feel great about you, and seeing you on Made's wagon, seeing how it was Made/Nutella/Owner, trying to figure out where the wolves were, it just kind of made (pun intended) everything click.

I'm not like super confident about this, but it has been something I felt weird about with Sloonei a few times today, and then just seeing those wagons really drove the point home in my mind. Definitely worth a careful look.

I am a player folks often feel weird about when they do not know me.

I am legitimate okay with just sheeping JJJ and Sloonei on each other. The chance that they are both scum is virtually nil at this point, and they have better reads on each other than I ever will on either of them.

And they have both very confidently said that the other is town this game.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:38 pm I uh... don't know where you got this impression. I have tried to get clarification out of you for my own peace of mind. I am a player who likes to leave no stone unturned. I do not recall offering specific resistance to you, but I did spend some time trying to engage in pro-owner arguments for that sake.

Clarification: "for the sake of leaving no stone unturned." Not "for the sake of resisting seanzie."

I’ll let Seanzie respond again (if he is so inclined) before I butt in further.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:45 pm I’ll let Seanzie respond again (if he is so inclined) before I butt in further.

You can respond. I said what I wanted to say, and I'm not super confident about it, so I just wanted to throw it out there and see how others feel to help me figure the game out.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:15 pm So like... how we all feelin' about Sloonei?

sloonei has felt fine to me, how do you feel about him?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:47 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:45 pm I’ll let Seanzie respond again (if he is so inclined) before I butt in further.

You can respond. I said what I wanted to say, and I'm not super confident about it, so I just wanted to throw it out there and see how others feel to help me figure the game out.

Very well.

I understand your perception that Sloonei was digging for role information. From your vantage point as a player who clearly want to keep the cards face down (apart from "Owner mafia"), there's a chance that any question relating to the specifics or the reliability of your information is going to strike you that way. I also understand Sloonei's position as a player in a closed role madness game who has seen too many instances of "sure fire" mechanics that turned out bunk -- often leading to entire games falling apart because people can't get out of their own obsession with the stuff. So on its own power, Seanzie saying "just trust me, Owner is mafia", even with mechanics assumed, is not a very convincing thing in a game like this. It isn't very convincing to me either. There are too many unknown variables, and for peace of mind, it's nice to have a better idea of some of those variables to the extent that someone is willing to share.

I think that if Sloonei was really more concerned with your role than with Owner's alignment, then there's a good chance none of that conversation happens in the first place. Especially over the last 5-7 hours of play, the Owner wagon has grown from big to biggest to huge to insurmountable. That's not getting saved. There's really no point in trying for one of her teammates. I also understand Sloonei's interest in entertaining theories wherein Owner is town. I did the exact same thing, and I even asserted that I thought it might be true at one point. Seanzie is certain is not good enough for me, and I am not surprised if its not good enough for Sloonei with or without mechanics considered. It's important that you are voicing certainty, and it's relevant, and it is a part of the Owner case. I'll tell you right now though that my own vote is more driven by Owner's own behavior in the game thread than by your expression of certainty. It's a matter of philosophy.

Owner isn't confirmed mafia until she flips mafia. She isn't confirmed mafia right now. With that in mind, any stone unturned leaves town unprepared for responding to events if she happens to flip town. That's not how Sloonei plays ball if he has the time and the drive to be as thorough as a town Sloonei should be. That all relates specifically to your concerns with Sloonei. My town read extends well beyond these notions to Sloonei's general performance in the game, his relationship with nutella, and the present state of affairs. There are very specific elements of a Sloonei hunting effort that uniquely occur when Sloonei is town and needs to hunt. I know this well because I am quite alike. We can both Do The Work as mafia, but it's so much more shallow in ways that I don't want to get into here.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:20 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:15 pm So like... how we all feelin' about Sloonei?

Lock town.

Weird, I've gotten very different vibes from him.

May need to ask Sloon for his case on Sloon

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:23 pm But of course I am an open book if you have pressing questions.

Show me your secret Town slip!

Can't we just go "ok Seanzie, remember that this is a closed role madness game and there could be confounding mechanics. With that in mind, are you still confident that Owner is mafia based on the mech info you have"?

And then if he says yes we just assume he's taken possible confounding mechanics into account.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:31 pm Can't we just go "ok Seanzie, remember that this is a closed role madness game and there could be confounding mechanics. With that in mind, are you still confident that Owner is mafia based on the mech info you have"?

And then if he says yes we just assume he's taken possible confounding mechanics into account.

This gets to the heart of all the questions I was prodding him with earlier, yes.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:46 pm JJJ does POE right before your eyes, with a mind on a world where Owner is indeed mafia:

Is this player even worth considering right now?

Spoiler: show

Actvscenei - yes
Alison - no
Allcrab - yes
bad bunny - yes
Dana - yes
Garden Gnome - yes
Gavial - no
Guillotine - no
hawkataine - yes
Kito - yes
Long Con - yes
lost monkey - no
MacDougall - no
Made - yes
MartinGG99 - yes
Sloonei - no
Seanzie - no
Sonny - yes

Remove the "no" people.

Is this player really someone I think warrants any meaningful concern right now?

Spoiler: show

Actvscenei - yes
Allcrab - yes
bad bunny - yes
Dana - no
Garden Gnome - yes
hawkataine - yes
Kito - no
Long Con - yes
Made - yes
MartinGG99 - no
Sonny - yes

Remove the "no" people.

Gun to my head, is this person town?

Spoiler: show

Actvscenei - yes
Allcrab - yes
bad bunny - no
Garden Gnome - no
hawkataine - yes
Long Con - yes
Made - no
Sonny - no

Consider the above spoiler a proper POE pool, and if I follow through everything I end up with this group containing [most likely] three mafia: bad bunny, Garden Gnome, Made, Sonny.

I doubt I am dead on with that process. But it displays how I am getting to my groupings, and if anyone out there has a major beef with any part of that process, they should speak up. I surprise myself a bit with Sonny and will think on that one. For the purposes of a POE solve, ignore the final step. The last spoiler is sufficient.

imma vibe this and probably just shitpost until something interesting happens tbh

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:06 pm @JaggedJimmyJay If nutella and Owner are both mafia then Made is a save.

are you saying that the mafia saved made by pushing both nutella and owner?

that would probably require a lot of mafia lol

hawkataine wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:07 pm

Gavial wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:05 pm @hawkataine
I’d suggest letting one of your other buds performing the kill tonight unless you wanna die with the kill.

hard claim red check on gavial
your move

gavial now has two hard red checks and owner still has 65 votes, our red checks have no power here

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:08 pm I believe I fully understand what Gavial is claiming.
I do not regard it as anything close to a red check on hawk.

Gavial is claiming that he impeded hawk's ability to act and therefore that means he stopped the kill right?

And the reality is he might have just stopped Hawk from giving me flowers and the mafia kill could have been stopped in seventeen other manners.

Does this summarise your thoughts?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:09 pm I'm willing to call it a yellow-orange check. A dandelion check.

I am quite partial to my batman check

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:10 pm What does today's threadstate tell us about the mafia team if Owner is on it?

either the game is over or there are 1-2 wolves going hellbus that will probably win in f5 or f3

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:11 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:09 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:06 pm @JaggedJimmyJay If nutella and Owner are both mafia then Made is a save.

What is a "save" in this sense?

I believe Made is a villager who was run up in order to protect nutella and Owner.

oh that makes more sense

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:14 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 3:29 pm Made
7
23%
Voters: JaggedJimmyJay, hawkataine, Sloonei, Tangrowth, Long Con, nutella, Owner of a Lonely Heart

(understanding that I am not lock-town blue for everyone, but)

It is not impossible to envision a world where either/both of Hawk and LC is mafia. It is not impossible to imagine them both as town either, to be fair.

I kinda think long con is pretty high likelihood a wolf actually, but I will just vig him tonight anyway

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:15 pm So like... how we all feelin' about Sloonei?

Sloonei is fine

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:40 pm I am legitimate okay with just sheeping JJJ and Sloonei on each other. The chance that they are both scum is virtually nil at this point, and they have better reads on each other than I ever will on either of them.

what about tomorrow when one of them dies tho lol

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:47 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:40 pm I am legitimate okay with just sheeping JJJ and Sloonei on each other. The chance that they are both scum is virtually nil at this point, and they have better reads on each other than I ever will on either of them.

what about tomorrow when one of them dies tho lol

If one of them dies and flips green then we know that person's read on the other is legit which carries a lot of weight with me.

With a confident godread on them by flipped town and both of them not having any red flags I'd be feel comfortable locking the other town.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:52 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:47 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:40 pm I am legitimate okay with just sheeping JJJ and Sloonei on each other. The chance that they are both scum is virtually nil at this point, and they have better reads on each other than I ever will on either of them.

what about tomorrow when one of them dies tho lol

If one of them dies and flips green then we know that person's read on the other is legit which carries a lot of weight with me.

With a confident godread on them by flipped town and both of them not having any red flags I'd be feel comfortable locking the other town.

But you are in essence saying that neither of them are capable of fooling the other and I have never seen evidence of that being true tbh.

Didn't they say that mafia Sloonei/JJJ has literally never fooled the other in Grasslands? It may take a while to get there, and may take a bit of time or uncertainty, but if someone confident and unambiguously says the other is town, they're always town.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:00 pm Didn't they say that mafia Sloonei/JJJ has literally never fooled the other in Grasslands? It may take a while to get there, and may take a bit of time or uncertainty, but if someone confident and unambiguously says the other is town, they're always town.

I would be interested to actually view the games in which one but not the other has randed mafia. I think there are more instances of Sloonei being mafia than Jay and in most of them Jay just gets night 1 killed before his read on Sloonei actually matters.

Martin just stealth voted Owner I think.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:03 pm Martin just stealth voted Owner I think.

Why do you think I should say it?

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:04 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:03 pm Martin just stealth voted Owner I think.

Why do you think I should say it?

I think this is self-evident and so don't feel the need to respond.

Good to see you though. Are you caught up? Thoughts on the game?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:41 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:08 pm I believe I fully understand what Gavial is claiming.
I do not regard it as anything close to a red check on hawk.

Gavial is claiming that he impeded hawk's ability to act and therefore that means he stopped the kill right?

And the reality is he might have just stopped Hawk from giving me flowers and the mafia kill could have been stopped in seventeen other manners.

Does this summarise your thoughts?

Yup

Well, up until a few minutes ago I didn't have any significant interest in anyone in particular being deleted.

I read through Allcrab's ISO and I felt that knowing Owner's alignment could help me get a better idea of whether Allcrab is w/w compatible with Nutella or not. Obviously, if Owner is mafia, then I have doubts that Allcrab is mafia as well.

Well, rather, its not a matter of having any interest in having someone deleted. I just didn't have any interest in any of the possible wagons being NOT deleted.

Mafia is probably seething in scum chat that all the players with godreads on each other randed town and have just created innocent children out of nowhere. Meanwhile a wolf gets D1ed and two red checks are claimed the following day.

So the question to ask is who looks like they came back from a session of scum-chat seething, put on a fake smile and tried to act like a normal person in thread.

Probably bunny.

Kito wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:56 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:52 pm

Kito wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:50 pm I'm actually more surprised by gnome than sonny there.

I think it's a product of the game state. Enough people seem town to me that there aren't many worlds where the unknown wild card is also town. I have very little confidence in any read on Gnome.

Which is fair, she's that kind of player. After being wrong on gnome several times, I've started reading her more as someone who is more interested in having fun and improving their own play, rather than trying to win as a priority. By that metric she's towny to me right now.

That, and the other three players in your POE have hardly made an effort (if any) to discuss owner, gnome at least entertained the idea and gave her opinion.

Yes, this is a good description of my play. Mafia is a game and the idea is to have fun and to learn the game and to play better with each game. It's been a long learning curve for me. I've had to figure out a play style that would be effective and would be a way for me to get around the fact that I just don't have an analytical mind.

That being said, I have been reading and catching up. I am especially persuaded by Alison's case on Owner of a Lonely Heart. It is very compelling in its argument that Owner is scum. I have no more questions to ask anyone. They've all been answered. (see? I don't just ask an endless string of questions! Sometimes, I make commentary!)

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:09 pm Mafia is probably seething in scum chat that all the players with godreads on each other randed town and have just created innocent children out of nowhere. Meanwhile a wolf gets D1ed and two red checks are claimed the following day.

Like the best thing that's happened for the mafia team right now is that two town combined forces and merged into one IC, which is technically slightly better for numbers, but gives us a clear.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:10 pm So the question to ask is who looks like they came back from a session of scum-chat seething, put on a fake smile and tried to act like a normal person in thread.

Probably bunny.

i think this is sort of what seanzie is accusing sloonei of

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:03 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:00 pm Didn't they say that mafia Sloonei/JJJ has literally never fooled the other in Grasslands? It may take a while to get there, and may take a bit of time or uncertainty, but if someone confident and unambiguously says the other is town, they're always town.

I would be interested to actually view the games in which one but not the other has randed mafia. I think there are more instances of Sloonei being mafia than Jay and in most of them Jay just gets night 1 killed before his read on Sloonei actually matters.

Sloonei has never truly fooled me in a decade in any game we've both played. It just hasn't occurred. I cannot recall a specific instance of having truly fooled Sloonei. I had a good chance in one random game on Bulbagarden, but I got shot N1 by a serial killer and had to bus my teammate D1 to even get there. I doubt he'd have been duped long.

Sometimes we string one another along and it takes a little low-confidence sorting. The next time a confident town read in this pair proves be faulty though will be the first time.

With all that said, Sloonei is a great player and the literal champ. I wouldn't tell anyone else to underestimate him and I won't either. Nonetheless, if I don't think I have a good reason to doubt myself then I am not going to worry about it -- certainly not under game circumstances like these on Day 2.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:13 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:10 pm So the question to ask is who looks like they came back from a session of scum-chat seething, put on a fake smile and tried to act like a normal person in thread.

Probably bunny.

i think this is sort of what seanzie is accusing sloonei of

I don't think this is what I was accusing him of. I was accusing him of possibly fishing for my mech info and possibly trying to save Owner. I am thinking I was mostly just being tinfoilly though, even though I will probably leave a note in my legacy about if Sloonei is still alive near endgame to reconsider.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:15 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:03 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:00 pm Didn't they say that mafia Sloonei/JJJ has literally never fooled the other in Grasslands? It may take a while to get there, and may take a bit of time or uncertainty, but if someone confident and unambiguously says the other is town, they're always town.

I would be interested to actually view the games in which one but not the other has randed mafia. I think there are more instances of Sloonei being mafia than Jay and in most of them Jay just gets night 1 killed before his read on Sloonei actually matters.

Sloonei has never truly fooled me in a decade in any game we've both played. It just hasn't occurred. I cannot recall a specific instance of having truly fooled Sloonei. I had a good chance in one random game on Bulbagarden, but I got shot N1 by a serial killer and had to bus my teammate D1 to even get there. I doubt he'd have been duped long.

Sometimes we string one another along and it takes a little low-confidence sorting. The next time a confident town read in this pair proves be faulty though will be the first time.

With all that said, Sloonei is a great player and the literal champ. I wouldn't tell anyone else to underestimate him and I won't either. Nonetheless, if I don't think I have a good reason to doubt myself then I am not going to worry about it -- certainly not under game circumstances like these on Day 2.

Yeah that's all fair.

Someone else just secret voted Owner. Gnome maybe?