The Syndicate

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:57 pm**

Disregard the previous: I hadn't read back yet, and I see it was discussed at length.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:00 pm**

In Recruitment Mafia's, it always pays to look for changes in tone and shifts in opinion. These are SVS's thoughts regarding Golden Day 1:

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 61#p168261

The part where he said he wanted Epi dead or God help him felt fairly sincere to me, Golden being a lay preacher and all. As I said initially, Goldens original line of questioning to me did not feel that odd,

-------

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 59#p168459

Unless Golden started out on someones short list, or is a recruiter himself, I don't see him applying for baddie positions in the various contests that the host is likely to have, based on prior experience with their games. I also think that, based on odds, he is as unlikley to have started out as a baddie recruiter as anyone else,

So I think that the odds of Golden finishing the game as a civ or a neutral are somewhat higher than for most people.

==================

She spent all of Day 2 hounding Golden for "baiting" the Epi kill, ignoring that 24 hours previous, she made some good points about how unlikely he was to be bad. To me, this reads like SVS sees an easy lynch and is going for it. No skin off her back, if he flips neutral early.

I think SVS is the Ubzergan (sp) recruit from the role picture contest, or Ubzergan herself.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:01 pm**

Oh also, Vote Registered for SVS

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:02 pm**

Long Con wrote:
Long Con wrote:
aapje wrote:Aww Typh and Epi.

Interesting that there was no Immortal kill.

@Hosts:
Will failed kills be written into the post?
How many missing PM's?
Failed kills should be written in. I think I missed writing in the Immortal kill that failed last night. I'll write it up today after I talk to BR to be sure of what she wants to do. I think the right solution is to just write up an extra section about this person surviving and post it.

There was definitely one PM missing.
Totally forgot about this. The Immortal's Position 1 kill was headed for G-Man, but G-Man survived. Sorry about the oversight.

Interesting. That leaves only a few options for who G-Man might have been.

Also, it seems most of the kills and kill attempts have targeted big players so far. I don't stand a chance to win this if I remain unrecruited.

Who here doesn't like big players?

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:07 pm**

Canucklehead wrote:Wow, those Timer defense posts by ?SVS and Tranq have some eerily similar language in them.... and are awfully close together.

Great minds think alike

Personally, I think the Timmer suspish is weak, to be blunt. BUT that's becasue I know the history. I was at the head of the pack that lynched him in RM3 for the exact same reasons the people who don't know him want to lynch him now, so I feel it is only right to speak up. I woke up, and I caught up from the night before during my morning coffee & Mafia time, and gave my opinion on Timmer, which had been the last conversation before I posted.

Ricochet wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:Bold stance: next time we're in Position 2, the lynch will be switched again.

Will it be to save a teammate?
How will we be able to test that or get info out of that, if there'll be a lynch switch no matter what.

You can't. That's the point. I am of the opinion that with the variety of roles that can switch things around, there is no way to really know anything

With these hosts, attempts to "solve" their intricately woven chaos will invariable end in failure. Not all games are logic puzzles. Some games are finely crafted clusterfucks.

If you're a baddie and you've got a use it or lose it lynch switch, or use it or lose it whatever power, you use it.

I read some of Bubbles posts in other games, and I was like *meh* about her being bad. Anything is possible, but she sounds about the same in those games as she does here. Although i disagree with him on Timmer, I do tend to agree with Wilgy on Bubbles.

I had a doctors appointment and took half a day. I will be in and out.

Linki @ DH, yes I clearly posted the EXACT time that my opinion on Golden shifted. EXACTLY. The exact post. Old news dear, keep up with the thread better

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:09 pm**

And why would anyone think Golden would be an easy lynch? For killing Epignosis?

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:16 pm**

S~V~S wrote:And why would anyone think Golden would be an easy lynch? For killing Epignosis?

You didn't suspect Golden for killing Epignosis (aka his bait to get Epignosis being WIFOM) until late into Golden's lynch. Initially you suspected Golden for his nonchalance and for distrusting that he's playing his civ game.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:18 pm**

Linki @ DH, yes I clearly posted the EXACT time that my opinion on Golden shifted. EXACTLY. The exact post. Old news dear, keep up with the thread better

Well this just confirms it for me.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:19 pm**

Ricochet wrote:
S~V~S wrote:And why would anyone think Golden would be an easy lynch? For killing Epignosis?
You didn't suspect Golden for killing Epignosis (aka his bait to get Epignosis being WIFOM) until late into Golden's lynch. Initially you suspected Golden for his nonchalance and for distrusting that he's playing his civ game.

i know. I meant that why would anyone want to lynch Golden for killing Epignosis. Epi was hounding him, and until he made that post, I felt sorry for him, too.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:19 pm**

Ricochet wrote:Also, it seems most of the kills and kill attempts have targeted big players so far. I don't stand a chance to win this if I remain unrecruited.

Who here doesn't like big players?

Wilgy runs off and into the streets crying I'm not fat!!! Don't be mean!!! Wilgy runs out of sight. His cries were heard in the distance until the sound of a car stopping suddenly, a bang, and a crash. Following that were the sirens of an ambulance.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:21 pm**

S~V~S wrote: Not all games are logic puzzles. Some games are finely crafted clusterfucks.

This is the greatest and most true thing anyone has ever said about mafia. Ever.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:22 pm**

DharmaHelper wrote:
Linki @ DH, yes I clearly posted the EXACT time that my opinion on Golden shifted. EXACTLY. The exact post. Old news dear, keep up with the thread better
Well this just confirms it for me.

You did not already know this when you came to the conclusion you came to?

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:24 pm**

S~V~S wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
Linki @ DH, yes I clearly posted the EXACT time that my opinion on Golden shifted. EXACTLY. The exact post. Old news dear, keep up with the thread better
Well this just confirms it for me.
You did not already know this when you came to the conclusion you came to?

Know that you were bad? Not with 100% certainty. Your response confirmed it.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:28 pm**

DharmaHelper wrote:
S~V~S wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
Linki @ DH, yes I clearly posted the EXACT time that my opinion on Golden shifted. EXACTLY. The exact post. Old news dear, keep up with the thread better
Well this just confirms it for me.
You did not already know this when you came to the conclusion you came to?
Know that you were bad? Not with 100% certainty. Your response confirmed it.

No, you didn't know that I was saying that for days smartass :P ? That one post made me change my mind. You can even see it in the thread, right after the night post where Epi & Typh died. I wasn't sure how I felt about it until he posted. If you want to think that changing my mind makes me a baddie, feel free. You'd be wrong. And why that specific role?

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:31 pm**

Canucklehead wrote:
S~V~S wrote: Not all games are logic puzzles. Some games are finely crafted clusterfucks.
This is the greatest and most true thing anyone has ever said about mafia. Ever.

True story.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:31 pm**

S~V~S wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
S~V~S wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
Linki @ DH, yes I clearly posted the EXACT time that my opinion on Golden shifted. EXACTLY. The exact post. Old news dear, keep up with the thread better
Well this just confirms it for me.
You did not already know this when you came to the conclusion you came to?
Know that you were bad? Not with 100% certainty. Your response confirmed it.
No, you didn't know that I was saying that for days smartass :P ? That one post made me change my mind. You can even see it in the thread, right after the night post where Epi & Typh died. I wasn't sure how I felt about it until he posted. If you want to think that changing my mind makes me a baddie, feel free. You'd be wrong. And why that specific role?

The Ubzer recruitment ended after you had made the first two comments. Your attack on Golden occurred after that recruitment.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:32 pm**

It also occurrred after Golden said he had baited the baddies into killing Epignosis, lol.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:33 pm**

S~V~S wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
S~V~S wrote:And why would anyone think Golden would be an easy lynch? For killing Epignosis?
You didn't suspect Golden for killing Epignosis (aka his bait to get Epignosis being WIFOM) until late into Golden's lynch. Initially you suspected Golden for his nonchalance and for distrusting that he's playing his civ game.
i know. I meant that why would anyone want to lynch Golden for killing Epignosis. Epi was hounding him, and until he made that post, I felt sorry for him, too.

Golden made his doomed comment fairly immediately, so there was no window for players to feel "sorry about Golden being hounded by Epig". His comment split the players right away into those finding him nonchalant and bad and those finding him genuine and possibly framed.

So when was Golden a lynch target for killing Epignosis (or the WIFOM around it)? As I've said, only you converted your suspicion into that late on D3 and I think rey did it as well at one point (without having brought it up before at all). I'd have to double-check about others, don't recall.

Am I misunderstanding something? Did you mean DH implied people (easily) suspected and lynched Golden for killing Epig? Because I don't see where he implied that.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:35 pm**

DharmaHelper wrote:
Linki @ DH, yes I clearly posted the EXACT time that my opinion on Golden shifted. EXACTLY. The exact post. Old news dear, keep up with the thread better
Well this just confirms it for me.

The reason this confirms it, for anyone asking, is how combative SVS is when she is bad in my experience.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:41 pm**

DharmaHelper wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
Linki @ DH, yes I clearly posted the EXACT time that my opinion on Golden shifted. EXACTLY. The exact post. Old news dear, keep up with the thread better
Well this just confirms it for me.
The reason this confirms it, for anyone asking, is how combative SVS is when she is bad in my experience.

To be fair, I think SVS can be pretty combative when she's good, too. That's why she's so fucking awesome at mafia.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:43 pm**

Canucklehead wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
Linki @ DH, yes I clearly posted the EXACT time that my opinion on Golden shifted. EXACTLY. The exact post. Old news dear, keep up with the thread better
Well this just confirms it for me.
The reason this confirms it, for anyone asking, is how combative SVS is when she is bad in my experience.
To be fair, I think SVS can be pretty combative when she's good, too. That's why she's so fucking awesome at mafia.

(And I assume by "combative" you mean "unwilling to take suit lying down" and "defending hard against suspicions she finds unreasonable")

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:44 pm**

Theres a difference between defending and being combative.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:45 pm**

DharmaHelper wrote:Theres a difference between defending and being combative.

What is the difference?

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:46 pm**

Canucklehead wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:Theres a difference between defending and being combative.
What is the difference?

Tone.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:48 pm**

DharmaHelper wrote:
Canucklehead wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:Theres a difference between defending and being combative.
What is the difference?
Tone.

That's nebulous, but regardless my point still stands: I've seen SVS be "combative" as a goodie, too. "Combative SVS" does not necessarily equate to baddie SVS in my experience.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:49 pm**

Alright, well, in this instance,it does.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:50 pm**

Ricochet wrote:
S~V~S wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
S~V~S wrote:And why would anyone think Golden would be an easy lynch? For killing Epignosis?
You didn't suspect Golden for killing Epignosis (aka his bait to get Epignosis being WIFOM) until late into Golden's lynch. Initially you suspected Golden for his nonchalance and for distrusting that he's playing his civ game.
i know. I meant that why would anyone want to lynch Golden for killing Epignosis. Epi was hounding him, and until he made that post, I felt sorry for him, too.
Golden made his doomed comment fairly immediately, so there was no window for players to feel "sorry about Golden being hounded by Epig". His comment split the players right away into those finding him nonchalant and bad and those finding him genuine and possibly framed.

So when was Golden a lynch target for killing Epignosis (or the WIFOM around it)? As I've said, only you converted your suspicion into that late on D3 and I think rey did it as well at one point (without having brought it up before at all). I'd have to double-check about others, don't recall.

Am I misunderstanding something? Did you mean DH implied people (easily) suspected and lynched Golden for killing Epig? Because I don't see where he implied that.

No, lol. How are you reading it this way? I am sorry I am not being clear. During the day before Epi died, I was sorry for Golden; I would imagine anone on the receiving end of Epis assuredness was.

I was asking why anyone would think it was an easy lynch, the "for killing Epignosis" part was rhetorical. Like how would someone people felt sorry for be an easy lynch?

@DH, um, I am not being combative? I am defending myself here.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:50 pm**

DharmaHelper wrote:Alright, well, in this instance,it does.

Is your tone this game "combative"? Or just "snarky"? How does that map onto your alignment?

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:53 pm**

Can you point out the combative? Was it calling you dear, or using this smiley: :P Or did you not like being told to read the thread? Becasue you missed a few things, IMO. And how do you know exactly when Uzbarger recruited? I went and looked back for that info, and I can't find it. I found the announcement of the first recruit, and the picture request, but can't find when he recruited either of those times. Unless the hosts misspleed his name

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:54 pm**

*misspelled

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:55 pm**

Canucklehead wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:Alright, well, in this instance,it does.
Is your tone this game "combative"? Or just "snarky"? How does that map onto your alignment?

I don't think either of those things. My tone is consistent throughout my alignment.

The course of events is:

SVS says that she does not thing Golden will be recruited to a baddie team, nor does she find it especially likely he is a baddie recruiter, at least not more so than anyone else.

The Ubzer picture contest happens and is resolved

Epignosis is killed

Golden brags about the Epi Kill

SVS goes after Golden all of Day 2.

The way that makes sense to me is SVS was recruited by Ubzer.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:57 pm**

Black Rock wrote:The Recruitment Challenge is over, the leader shall now judge and make a decision. Sorry for the delay, I had the farrier here doing my horses feet.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:58 pm**

S~V~S wrote:Can you point out the combative? Was it calling you dear, or using this smiley: :P Or did you not like being told to read the thread? Becasue you missed a few things, IMO. And how do you know exactly when Uzbarger recruited? I went and looked back for that info, and I can't find it. I found the announcement of the first recruit, and the picture request, but can't find when he recruited either of those times. Unless the hosts misspleed his name

Linki @ DH, yes I clearly posted the EXACT time that my opinion on Golden shifted. EXACTLY. The exact post. Old news dear, keep up with the thread better

Caps, repetition, condescension. Combative.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:04 pm**

Canucklehead wrote:
S~V~S wrote: Not all games are logic puzzles. Some games are finely crafted clusterfucks.
This is the greatest and most true thing anyone has ever said about mafia. Ever.

Yeah, I love this as well. I agree with SVS that we can't logic our way out of the lynch switch business.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:06 pm**

I'm enjoying an actual case from DH. Thank you, sir. But I still think he is more suspish than SVS. SVS randomly changes her mind all the time. She has tiunnell vision that 180s all the time. I know, because I have been the victim of it, and I also have a tendency to get it myself. I don't see her changing stance on Golden as particularly pingy.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:10 pm**

DharmaHelper wrote:
Black Rock wrote:The Recruitment Challenge is over, the leader shall now judge and make a decision. Sorry for the delay, I had the farrier here doing my horses feet.

There are over 24 hours between this post and Epis death, and Goldens subsequent remark. 24 hours in which I continued to not think Golden was bad.

And I get that way at pretty much any accusation, DH, as you well know. I recall games where you intentionally tried to upset me. And I have been using caps all game for emphasis.You just know how to upset me, just look at when we first started playing D & D.

You're stretching here.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:11 pm**

Synonym switched his vote to Bubbles. Has he said something about it?

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:12 pm**

thellama73 wrote:
Canucklehead wrote:
S~V~S wrote: Not all games are logic puzzles. Some games are finely crafted clusterfucks.
This is the greatest and most true thing anyone has ever said about mafia. Ever.
Yeah, I love this as well. I agree with SVS that we can't logic our way out of the lynch switch business.

I can't begin explain how wrong this is.

and Llama

thellama73 wrote:Wrong. All actions are by definition rational, in the sense that they are designed to move the actor from a place of lesser satisfaction to a place of greater satisfaction, based on the subjective preferences of the actor. Whether or not they succeed is not relevant.

Here you were disputing something MP had said. If every action is rational, that means every decision has a logical decision making process behind it. Does this mean those logical processes aren't traceable by any means?

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:14 pm**

Not with all the night powers that can fuck with things, Wilgy. There are too many unknown variables. Sometimes you just have to suspend belief and let magic take over.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:15 pm**

S~V~S wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
Black Rock wrote:The Recruitment Challenge is over, the leader shall now judge and make a decision. Sorry for the delay, I had the farrier here doing my horses feet.
There are over 24 hours between this post and Epis death, and Goldens subsequent remark. 24 hours in which I continued to not think Golden was bad.

And I get that way at pretty much any accusation, DH, as you well know. I recall games where you intentionally tried to upset me. And I have been using caps all game for emphasis.You just know how to upset me, just look at when we first started playing D & D.

You're stretching here.

We'll see.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:16 pm**

DharmaHelper wrote:
S~V~S wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
Black Rock wrote:The Recruitment Challenge is over, the leader shall now judge and make a decision. Sorry for the delay, I had the farrier here doing my horses feet.
There are over 24 hours between this post and Epis death, and Goldens subsequent remark. 24 hours in which I continued to not think Golden was bad.

And I get that way at pretty much any accusation, DH, as you well know. I recall games where you intentionally tried to upset me. And I have been using caps all game for emphasis.You just know how to upset me, just look at when we first started playing D & D.

You're stretching here.
We'll see.

Also, bullshit.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:18 pm**

Nope.

And in that game, it was Rabbits abortive Superhero game, LT read you & Rey out in the thread for intentionally working me up. We were all civ.

I will never forget that. So no bullshit.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:18 pm**

ebwop, I kinda thought there were others but have no way of knowing for sure, but you got called out in thread for that one.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:20 pm**

aapje wrote:
Scotty wrote:@Dom's demeanor has been hovering somewhere around antagonistic, but I've never seen him play a game before. He's been pretty vocal about several people and so far hasn't been successful in catching a baddie (such as Golden, MP and me as examples) which doesn't sit well with me.
How can you be so sure MP wasn't bad? Not saying he was but it's certainly a possibility.

Scotty's post caught my eye aswell. Why assume MP wasn't bad?

Spacedaisy wrote:I'll repeat here that I suspect get not only because the lynch for switched but because her response to it seemed exaggerated. I would expect her to be all, "I don't know why" but now a paragraph of her going on about how she is so confused and she doesn't know what happened and she em pmed the hosts, etc. It is overkill. It don't feel like a natural civilian response. I think She knows why the lynch got switched, in fact I think it was her teammate that did it.

Why think it was her teammate? If TinyBubbles is on Ubzargan's team, i think it's more likely she's Ubzargan herself:

TinyBubbles wrote:going with position 1

Last night, after the lynch switch, Bubbles chose Position 1, rather than Position 4, knowing there would be 'consequences'. Why, after having just survived a lynch, would you be ok with taking on extra consequences? Ubzargan has lynch immunity on Position 1. Could it be someone thought they could really use lynch immunity the next day?

I'm ok with placing a vote on TinyBubbles for now.

@ Hosts: Can we get a screencap of the Night 4 poll results?

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:22 pm**

S~V~S wrote:Not with all the night powers that can fuck with things, Wilgy. There are too many unknown variables. Sometimes you just have to suspend belief and let magic take over.

So you suggest we dismiss belief, thought, reasoning and more so discussion? SVS, you are treading down the same path that had me voting Unfurl early.

I was suspicions of you for hounding Golden and being one of the day 1 lynch survivors. I didn't share this because I wanted to avoid tunnel vision, but I'm also suspicious of you based on our past play history together. In a game where you had some say in what role you obtained, you were the serial killer. We've had multiple open recruitments already and I would not be surprised if you were to hop on that baddie boat.

@HOSTS When Ubzargan does the lynch switch, how many players does he target?

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:26 pm**

I hate mafia. I'm not gonna play a game I hate. See you guys after the lynch.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:30 pm**

I figured you were suspicious of me, you did vote for me and never explain it. Or that question about how artistic i was.

And I am talking about Game Mechanics. Look at the roles, Wilgy. They're pretty wild. I am not saying dismiss discussion; I LOVE discussion. I am saying we not worry so much about being able to deduce things based on easily manipulated evidence. There are seemers, iirc there is a role that can insert stuff into the host post, there are roles with day or night ends that don't have to worry about saving it for when they need it. Vote manips. Power redirectors. People that can survive for any amount of reasons.

And I submit entries to all contests in this game. And in that game, those were the best roles, the indies, and two of the baddies, The most interesting. Even the host said I submitted the best list

@DH

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:31 pm**

DrWilgy wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Canucklehead wrote:
S~V~S wrote: Not all games are logic puzzles. Some games are finely crafted clusterfucks.
This is the greatest and most true thing anyone has ever said about mafia. Ever.
Yeah, I love this as well. I agree with SVS that we can't logic our way out of the lynch switch business.
I can't begin explain how wrong this is.

and Llama
thellama73 wrote:Wrong. All actions are by definition rational, in the sense that they are designed to move the actor from a place of lesser satisfaction to a place of greater satisfaction, based on the subjective preferences of the actor. Whether or not they succeed is not relevant.
Here you were disputing something MP had said. If every action is rational, that means every decision has a logical decision making process behind it. Does this mean those logical processes aren't traceable by any means?

I agree that every decision has a logical process behind it. I don't agree that we can know what that process is in this situation.

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:33 pm**

DrWilgy wrote:
S~V~S wrote:Not with all the night powers that can fuck with things, Wilgy. There are too many unknown variables. Sometimes you just have to suspend belief and let magic take over.
So you suggest we dismiss belief, thought, reasoning and more so discussion? SVS, you are treading down the same path that had me voting Unfurl early.

I was suspicions of you for hounding Golden and being one of the day 1 lynch survivors. I didn't share this because I wanted to avoid tunnel vision, but I'm also suspicious of you based on our past play history together. In a game where you had some say in what role you obtained, you were the serial killer. We've had multiple open recruitments already and I would not be surprised if you were to hop on that baddie boat.

@HOSTS When Ubzargan does the lynch switch, how many players does he target?

One

Posted: **Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:33 pm**

DharmaHelper wrote:I hate mafia. I'm not gonna play a game I hate. See you guys after the lynch.

All right, I'm voting for you then.

*vote registered for DharmaHelper.*

The Syndicate

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Re: Recruitment Mafia IV: Dawn of the Clans (Day 5)

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