The Syndicate

Anyway finally time for sleep.

Also thanks llama for the kind words on your way out.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Well that's not the case I built at all but I guess it's a decent enough result.

If Epi and llama were both active then is there a reason to believe there are multiple baddie teams? I suppose the kill(s) tonight would be a decent indicator.

It was a good result. Now that I see Llamas and Epigs role I do believe they had to find each other to activate and they did. I'm pretty sure we removed an active kill from the game.

I'm starting to believe we might have one larger baddie team. That's just paranoid thoughts though, no evidence.

I'm going back and forth between catch up and staying current. I see Tranq actually posted a few times today.

thellama73 wrote:That BR vote just pisses me off though.

Sorry, I don't regret it at this time. If it matters, my vote didn't.

Black Rock wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Well that's not the case I built at all but I guess it's a decent enough result.

If Epi and llama were both active then is there a reason to believe there are multiple baddie teams? I suppose the kill(s) tonight would be a decent indicator.

It was a good result. Now that I see Llamas and Epigs role I do believe they had to find each other to activate and they did. I'm pretty sure we removed an active kill from the game.

I'm starting to believe we might have one larger baddie team. That's just paranoid thoughts though, no evidence.

I'm going back and forth between catch up and staying current. I see Tranq actually posted a few times today.

There were three kills on each of the preceding nights. I see no reason to believe that they both weren't killing already.

MacDougall wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I'm the new King of Fuck Mountain. I broke the tie between llama and Tranq.

No you are The Fuck of King Mountain.

I'm satisfied either way, since marmots dwell on mountains.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think we made the best decision I was able to come up with. That's all we can ask for in any lynch.

omg lol this is the most arrogant thing I have ever said. I'm sorry. Bad wording.

LOL! I love it, JJJ. Truly beautiful arrogance, it's perfect.

Anyhoo, probably a good lynch sort of. Llama could have killed baddies, but last night the Broadway Duo probably killed a Civ, so later Llammerstein!

So the real deal is, you all followed a lynch on a player that was bogus. The points that made Llama seem bad were not accurate, and it's only luck that he wasn't a Civ.

It's really interesting that most everyone is ignoring the case that JJJ is Kubrick, despite him surviving a lynch on the day that it is probable that Kubrick would survive a lynch. You remember, right? A case based on "facts", instead of "how we think Lorab might distance in that post".

I want to REALLY focus on how interesting it is, actually. Lemme go look at how many votes JJJ got today. Last time I checked (a few hours ago), it was down to just me voting for him.

Here's the angle for you, and it really only resonates if you think that my (now) main case on JJJ has any realistic credibility. To recap that case as simply as possible, again: Lorab/Ozymandias was able to control the Day 3 Position. Kubrick survives a lynch on Position 1. JJJ was under suspicion going into Day 3. JJJ survived the lynch on Day 3. JJJ is probably Kubrick.

I happen to think that's enough to seriously consider that JJJ is Kubrick. I also had several other points of solid suspicion on JJJ even before that came up.

If JJJ is a Civ, why did no baddies at all decide to back this case and go for his lynch?? If he's a Civ, he's a dangerous one. Look at his awesome all-player ISOs after a baddie dies! Those are very valuable references to have. And yet, a) no one voted for him today, and b) no one has tried to night kill him.

Macdougall threw a (joke?) vote his way long after the Llama train had left the station. Otherwise, just me. Today was filled to the brim with people pretty much ignoring the JJJ case. Are you telling me that no baddie at all would latch on to a case like this to lynch a Civ? He's practically served up on a silver platter.

But no votes. Think about that.

LC, what vote do you think looks the worst out of the Llama voters?

DrWilgy wrote:LC, what vote do you think looks the worst out of the Llama voters?

I'm confused by a lot of what I read for that lynch. I never saw a serious tie situation (though I worked tonight from about two hours before the lynch was up, to two hours after), and there's a bunch of references to people breaking/causing/seeking ties. All I see is a massive pileup on Llama.

Point being, if there were ties and tie-breakers, then they are key points along the lynch to look into... otherwise, the later voters generally look like bandwagon-jumpers, so more suspicious.

Final answer: JaggedJimmyJay is the most suspicious of the Llama voters, because he is Kubrick.

Long Con wrote:I could get on board with a Llama lynch, Jimmy. I'd rather lynch you, obviously, but if it ends up not being you, then Llama is a fine contender for me, along with Draconus, and Boomslang.

Very quiet for the past little while. I haven't been able to post as often as I would have liked this round, but I think I'll hang around for awhile, see how this day goes.

Just for fun, I'll explain this statement. Day 4, I was cursed to post a Sonny and Cher lyric in every post I made. Miss once, and my vote is worth nothing, miss twice and I'm roleblocked. The more posts I made, the more likely it was that I miss doing it, so I had to hold back from some quick responses and such. Not to mention it was a hassle, trying to find lyrical lines that would fit into my posts without too much disruption (like "I think I'll hang around for awhile" in the quoted post here). Nearly every single one of their songs is about love/relationships! So many lines that would just be totally weird if I threw them into a post!

FZ. wrote:Dom, possibly :P The only game prior to Pikmin, that I was mafia in, it was MP, you and I. MP kind of screwed it for me and him and you remained on your own. I followed the game to see how you were doing. You were asking tons of questions. More than regular sentences probably. I keep looking for that ever since. I don't know if this is the case here, but that's why when you start asking questions, I get worried. Maybe it's something you do no matter the alignment, but that game, it was very easy to notice.


JJJ, I think I've seen llama vote for the other contender many times, in order to save himself. Not sure if he does it more when a civ or a baddie though. It's interesting he didn't go that rout, though I guess it wasn't a "save myself" situation yet.

I feel like we're going in circles. On the surface level, you're right. llama is acting more like the classic mafia. If he's mafia, I'll be disappointed in him. I'm willing to vote him, because it doesn't look like it's going Dom's way, and I don't want to vote either Tranq or DH at this point.

Hey everyone: would you all say I ask lots of questions or nah?

thellama73 wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Ricochet wrote:

thellama73 wrote:Hey, this isn't cool guys. I was walking home from work and then I was on the radio, and I come back to see this? The whole thing stinks, I tell ya.

Legacy suspects. Please and thank you.

Agreed. If you're civilian then tell us what you think of the people on your bandwagon and its development. Please hurry.

I'm not going to spit out a list of suspects I don't have, but I do think this feels like a pretty obvious Tranq save. YOu know how I feel about DH. I think Dom and Juliets could be bad. I'm still not buying that JJ is. I'm unsure about Matt. He's inscrutable.

NOW I'm potentially bad.

Riiiiight.

thellama73 wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:*crickets*

I do think it's noteworthy that llama has attempted to provide some reads. If he's bad then that's just scraps that can be picked at the civvie vultures afterword.

Even though you were the first to vote for me, I at least feel like your suspicious was honest and not opportunistic. You're a stand up guy, even if I die.

Do you think Dom is bad in light of the point I was making against you? Not just using the word "suspish", but LoRab's treatment of him for it (defending him while attacking you)?

Combined with his bandwagon vote for me, I think it's likely.

Except I discussed my reasoning with JJJ.

Ricochet wrote:Also, I did not expect the pairing to be the original one.

Now, about the baddies, can we move on to Dom now?

No.

Ricochet wrote:nooo not that trauma-inducing video. *teh memories*

wow, two indy killers, what insanity is this.

buh-bye llamaman. good result.

It seems they were similarly set up to how I created them.

Dom wrote:Hey everyone: would you all say I ask lots of questions or nah?.

My experience with you is that asking a lot of questions is your usual detective style.

thx i also apoogize for the shitty punctuation there

Dom wrote:thx i also apoogize for the shitty punctuation there

Any thoughts on my latest big post? I'm starting to get into Hitting Myself On The Head With A Hammer mode, and everyone has gone to sleepyville before I got home to post it.

Hold on I'll re read it.

LC, why do you think JJJ was almost lynched before, then?

I still agree with you on him, but I'm curious as to why you think this way now and not then.

Dom wrote:LC, why do you think JJJ was almost lynched before, then?

I still agree with you on him, but I'm curious as to why you think this way now and not then.

One factor is that Kubrick's role was not revealed until after that.

Wow, I did not see that coming. No idea what it means regarding the number of mafia teams.


LC, you're making me doubt myself with your case, but other than the Kubrick thing, I just don't get a baddie vibe from him. I can easily explain why he wasn't NK with the reasoning the baddies thought they could get him lynched. As for why baddies didn't take that bait you gave them, I think he was getting votes every day now, as well as the last day, but my thought is, baddies were feeling this train lost its momentum.

As for the Kubrick issue, it reminds me of Death Note game, when Russ died and was revealed to be a role checker and changed my mind about me the day before he died from being civ, to probably being bad. Epi made a really good case with statistic reasoning that even I couldn't ignore. It was probably the best case I've seen in a long time...but it was wrong. I was good, it was circumstantial, and as much as it appeared like a solid evidence based case, it was wrong. I can't tell you how frustrated I was that game. By the way, I could survive a lynch too, and I fought really hard to prevent my lynch that game. So at least consider all of that when you're looking at things.

Sorry, it was supposed to say :when Russ died and revealed as the role checker, and appeared to change his mind on me.

No, I hath decreed that tomorrow The King of Fuck Mountain is to be lynched. By hook, or by crook.

MacDougall wrote:No, I hath decreed that tomorrow The King of Fuck Mountain is to be lynched. By hook, or by crook.

Glad to know you have really good reasons to lynch people. So good to know there are some high level thinkers in this game.

Long Con wrote:
So the real deal is, you all followed a lynch on a player that was bogus. The points that made Llama seem bad were not accurate, and it's only luck that he wasn't a Civ.

No need to be this harsh. Firstly, the result is in favor of the civs, no matter how oddball the case was. One can inadvertedly catch a baddie with small stuff, silly pings or out-of-the-box sussing - sure, it won't rank as Greek masterful rhetoric stuff, and even the baddie might feel it wasn't fair for him to go down this way, but it is what it is. I think our Host SVS would agree with this.

Long Con wrote: It's really interesting that most everyone is ignoring the case that JJJ is Kubrick, despite him surviving a lynch on the day that it is probable that Kubrick would survive a lynch. You remember, right? A case based on "facts", instead of "how we think Lorab might distance in that post".

How a confirmed baddie might have distanced in his/her posts sounds fair of a case to me. Also, the Kubrick facts don't completely sink JJJ's boat, they just create doubt around him.

Long Con wrote: I want to REALLY focus on how interesting it is, actually. Lemme go look at how many votes JJJ got today. Last time I checked (a few hours ago), it was down to just me voting for him.

Here's the angle for you, and it really only resonates if you think that my (now) main case on JJJ has any realistic credibility. To recap that case as simply as possible, again: Lorab/Ozymandias was able to control the Day 3 Position. Kubrick survives a lynch on Position 1. JJJ was under suspicion going into Day 3. JJJ survived the lynch on Day 3. JJJ is probably Kubrick.

I happen to think that's enough to seriously consider that JJJ is Kubrick. I also had several other points of solid suspicion on JJJ even before that came up.

Yes, the reasoning here of the process is no-doubt solid. But, as I've said, it doesn't 100% make me pull the nuke switch on him.
Two auxiliary questions: 1) do you think a civ one-time survivor, the kind JJJ is openly claiming, could exist in the game, to balance out Kubrick's bad mad skills? 2) Do you think Kubrick's role could actually be the corrupted one? More precisely, do you think a civ role called Kubrick could encompass all the abilities written there (lynch immunity on one position, night kill immunity on four positions), just like it appears to do as a baddie?

Long Con wrote: If JJJ is a Civ, why did no baddies at all decide to back this case and go for his lynch?? If he's a Civ, he's a dangerous one. Look at his awesome all-player ISOs after a baddie dies! Those are very valuable references to have. And yet, a) no one voted for him today, and b) no one has tried to night kill him.

Macdougall threw a (joke?) vote his way long after the Llama train had left the station. Otherwise, just me. Today was filled to the brim with people pretty much ignoring the JJJ case. Are you telling me that no baddie at all would latch on to a case like this to lynch a Civ? He's practically served up on a silver platter.

But no votes. Think about that.

Don't know how to answer your first angle. Llama was, on the downside, a good magnet for baddies votes as well; they gain as much from his death. I suppose JJJ wasn't the main option for them this time? Would baddies just expose themselves by voting JJJ, with no strong momentum for JJJ to be voted, only because they fear his civvieness?

As for expecting high-posting, high-casing civilians to get swiftly removed during the Night, that's not a civilianesque thing to say to my ears.

FZ. wrote:

MacDougall wrote:No, I hath decreed that tomorrow The King of Fuck Mountain is to be lynched. By hook, or by crook.

Glad to know you have really good reasons to lynch people. So good to know there are some high level thinkers in this game.

That's not a very nice way to speak about the literal God of Mafia.

Long Con wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:LC, what vote do you think looks the worst out of the Llama voters?

I'm confused by a lot of what I read for that lynch. I never saw a serious tie situation (though I worked tonight from about two hours before the lynch was up, to two hours after), and there's a bunch of references to people breaking/causing/seeking ties. All I see is a massive pileup on Llama.

Point being, if there were ties and tie-breakers, then they are key points along the lynch to look into... otherwise, the later voters generally look like bandwagon-jumpers, so more suspicious.

Final answer: JaggedJimmyJay is the most suspicious of the Llama voters, because he is Kubrick.

At one point, DH had 4 votes and Llama with Tranq were tied 5 a piece. That's when the tie banter started again.

I could probably sketch another vote-by-vote list, give or take a few I might have missed (juliets, for instance, mentioned a switch that I don't have on my sheet, so I have to check that).

Dom wrote:Hey everyone: would you all say I ask lots of questions or nah?

When you're bad, you pressure players greatly with your inquisitiveness, to act like you're top civ dawg.

Dom wrote:

Ricochet wrote:Also, I did not expect the pairing to be the original one.

Now, about the baddies, can we move on to Dom now?

No.

Wasn't asking you.

FZ. wrote:LC, you're making me doubt myself with your case, but other than the Kubrick thing, I just don't get a baddie vibe from him.

I think this is the main reason why his lynch has totally lost steam. Such a Civvie vibe! Hey, JJJ, a question for you: are you an experienced enough Mafia player to be able to play a "Civ game" when you are not Civ? FZ, what is a baddie vibe? Is it something only baddies give off, uncontrollably, and Civs never have? Vibe. Vibe vibe vibe. Gut feel? Are you that good?

I can easily explain why he wasn't NK with the reasoning the baddies thought they could get him lynched. As for why baddies didn't take that bait you gave them, I think he was getting votes every day now, as well as the last day, but my thought is, baddies were feeling this train lost its momentum.

As for the Kubrick issue, it reminds me of Death Note game, when Russ died and was revealed to be a role checker and changed my mind about me the day before he died from being civ, to probably being bad. Epi made a really good case with statistic reasoning that even I couldn't ignore. It was probably the best case I've seen in a long time...but it was wrong. I was good, it was circumstantial, and as much as it appeared like a solid evidence based case, it was wrong. I can't tell you how frustrated I was that game. By the way, I could survive a lynch too, and I fought really hard to prevent my lynch that game. So at least consider all of that when you're looking at things.

Believe me, I know that I could be wrong, and that JJJ could be Civ. Like I said before, I truly was posting to let the thread know a very good reason why I suspected him less (before I factored in Lorab's control of the Position that day). I'm not tunnelling here. I have other suspicions. It's just that the evidence is practically glaring at this point. Considering everything JJJ has done that has made people feel like he's Civ, it comes down to one question: is he a skilled enough player to write these things as a baddie?

Long Con wrote:

FZ. wrote:LC, you're making me doubt myself with your case, but other than the Kubrick thing, I just don't get a baddie vibe from him.

I think this is the main reason why his lynch has totally lost steam. Such a Civvie vibe! Hey, JJJ, a question for you: are you an experienced enough Mafia player to be able to play a "Civ game" when you are not Civ? FZ, what is a baddie vibe? Is it something only baddies give off, uncontrollably, and Civs never have? Vibe. Vibe vibe vibe. Gut feel? Are you that good?

I can easily explain why he wasn't NK with the reasoning the baddies thought they could get him lynched. As for why baddies didn't take that bait you gave them, I think he was getting votes every day now, as well as the last day, but my thought is, baddies were feeling this train lost its momentum.

As for the Kubrick issue, it reminds me of Death Note game, when Russ died and was revealed to be a role checker and changed my mind about me the day before he died from being civ, to probably being bad. Epi made a really good case with statistic reasoning that even I couldn't ignore. It was probably the best case I've seen in a long time...but it was wrong. I was good, it was circumstantial, and as much as it appeared like a solid evidence based case, it was wrong. I can't tell you how frustrated I was that game. By the way, I could survive a lynch too, and I fought really hard to prevent my lynch that game. So at least consider all of that when you're looking at things.

Believe me, I know that I could be wrong, and that JJJ could be Civ. Like I said before, I truly was posting to let the thread know a very good reason why I suspected him less (before I factored in Lorab's control of the Position that day). I'm not tunnelling here. I have other suspicions. It's just that the evidence is practically glaring at this point. Considering everything JJJ has done that has made people feel like he's Civ, it comes down to one question: is he a skilled enough player to write these things as a baddie?

I'm not that good. I actually think I used to be but not any more. Could I be wrong? Hell yes, and I'm sure JJJ can totally pull it off. That said, all I have is my gut, my reads and how people come off looking to me. If I let your intuition, "evidence" and whatever, be what guides my decision, what's the point in me playing? I joined after the first day, so I don't know how I would have handled that, nor have I read it. I was right about Sig (and should have defended him stronger), I was right in my initial suspicion of Lorab (before I started doubting myself), and I though Epi and llama both acted quite reserved and weird (which is why I wasn't defending llama like I was other civvies), and I understand why now. I was also sure Golden and HB were good. Does it mean I'm going to be right about other things, most likely not, and I've probably suspected some innocent civvies as well, but I have to go with what I believe. Other than not posting the amount I expected from him on the day I joined, JJJ has done nothing to make me question him at all. I need at least something, other than "evidence" to make me consider voting for him. I don't have it.

Ricochet wrote:

Long Con wrote:So the real deal is, you all followed a lynch on a player that was bogus. The points that made Llama seem bad were not accurate, and it's only luck that he wasn't a Civ.

No need to be this harsh. Firstly, the result is in favor of the civs, no matter how oddball the case was. One can inadvertedly catch a baddie with small stuff, silly pings or out-of-the-box sussing - sure, it won't rank as Greek masterful rhetoric stuff, and even the baddie might feel it wasn't fair for him to go down this way, but it is what it is. I think our Host SVS would agree with this.

Harsh smarsh. I thought Llama was bad too. Why are you bringing S~V~S into this?

Long Con wrote:It's really interesting that most everyone is ignoring the case that JJJ is Kubrick, despite him surviving a lynch on the day that it is probable that Kubrick would survive a lynch. You remember, right? A case based on "facts", instead of "how we think Lorab might distance in that post".

How a confirmed baddie might have distanced in his/her posts sounds fair of a case to me. Also, the Kubrick facts don't completely sink JJJ's boat, they just create doubt around him.

And what sunk sig's boat? What sunk Llama's boat? Was it more or less than the case on JJJ? The Kubrick thing is far from the first case made on him.

Long Con wrote:I want to REALLY focus on how interesting it is, actually. Lemme go look at how many votes JJJ got today. Last time I checked (a few hours ago), it was down to just me voting for him.

Here's the angle for you, and it really only resonates if you think that my (now) main case on JJJ has any realistic credibility. To recap that case as simply as possible, again: Lorab/Ozymandias was able to control the Day 3 Position. Kubrick survives a lynch on Position 1. JJJ was under suspicion going into Day 3. JJJ survived the lynch on Day 3. JJJ is probably Kubrick.

I happen to think that's enough to seriously consider that JJJ is Kubrick. I also had several other points of solid suspicion on JJJ even before that came up.

Yes, the reasoning here of the process is no-doubt solid. But, as I've said, it doesn't 100% make me pull the nuke switch on him.
Two auxiliary questions: 1) do you think a civ one-time survivor, the kind JJJ is openly claiming, could exist in the game, to balance out Kubrick's bad mad skills? 2) Do you think Kubrick's role could actually be the corrupted one? More precisely, do you think a civ role called Kubrick could encompass all the abilities written there (lynch immunity on one position, night kill immunity on four positions), just like it appears to do as a baddie?

Again, were you 100% on the nuke switch with sig and Llama? Is that even a lynchability-rating system that exists?

1) Absolutely, a Civ could have a lynch-survival. I don't see Kubrick's ability as something that needs a Civilian Balancer Role to maintain fairness in the game - he can survive a lynch on 1 out of 5 Positions. That's WAY less powerful than a common Mafia Godfather type role that will automatically survive the first lynch, or every lynch until the team is dead. But having a 'Duncan Idaho' type role is totally fair game, and he might be that. Of course, not Duncan. Who has a reasonable chance of being in the game, being in the Day 0 poll. And if he is, then maybe there's TWO Civs that survive lynches. Or Duncan is evil or something. Tangential, point made, moving on.

2) What do you mean by "the corrupted one"?

Roger Rabbit - Who Framed Roger Rabbit BADDIE
In position 4, Roger Rabbit can frame a player by making them appear bad to alignment checks.
In any other Position, he may target a player and force them to post using only emoticons for the next Day.

That? Zebra was already dead by the time the Kubrick role was revealed.

Long Con wrote:If JJJ is a Civ, why did no baddies at all decide to back this case and go for his lynch?? If he's a Civ, he's a dangerous one. Look at his awesome all-player ISOs after a baddie dies! Those are very valuable references to have. And yet, a) no one voted for him today, and b) no one has tried to night kill him.

Macdougall threw a (joke?) vote his way long after the Llama train had left the station. Otherwise, just me. Today was filled to the brim with people pretty much ignoring the JJJ case. Are you telling me that no baddie at all would latch on to a case like this to lynch a Civ? He's practically served up on a silver platter.

But no votes. Think about that.

Don't know how to answer your first angle. Llama was, on the downside, a good magnet for baddies votes as well; they gain as much from his death. I suppose JJJ wasn't the main option for them this time? Would baddies just expose themselves by voting JJJ, with no strong momentum for JJJ to be voted, only because they fear his civvieness?

Cool. Cool cool cool.

As for expecting high-posting, high-casing civilians to get swiftly removed during the Night, that's not a civilianesque thing to say to my ears.

So I'm bad now for suggesting that the Mafia might kill dangerous Civs? Why would you say that? Was I asking them to kill prolific Civs? Is that what you saw when you read my post? Really?

LC, remember in Flash, I kept saying that you're playing a game that is too perfect and a little voice inside me keeps saying it's too good to be true? I ended up not following that little nagging suspicion when I should have. That was a very well crafted game where I consider a skilled player doing what you're suggesting JJJ is doing. The difference for me is, I don't think he's playing a perfect game. I have no idea how to convey to you what I mean when I say perfect, but that's where my doubts come from. JJJ has given me a genuine vibe all game. He's not trying to be overly helpful, he's not trying to buddy up to people. He's just doing what he thinks he should. At least that's how I'm reading him.

FZ. wrote:

Long Con wrote:

FZ. wrote:LC, you're making me doubt myself with your case, but other than the Kubrick thing, I just don't get a baddie vibe from him.

I think this is the main reason why his lynch has totally lost steam. Such a Civvie vibe! Hey, JJJ, a question for you: are you an experienced enough Mafia player to be able to play a "Civ game" when you are not Civ? FZ, what is a baddie vibe? Is it something only baddies give off, uncontrollably, and Civs never have? Vibe. Vibe vibe vibe. Gut feel? Are you that good?

I can easily explain why he wasn't NK with the reasoning the baddies thought they could get him lynched. As for why baddies didn't take that bait you gave them, I think he was getting votes every day now, as well as the last day, but my thought is, baddies were feeling this train lost its momentum.

As for the Kubrick issue, it reminds me of Death Note game, when Russ died and was revealed to be a role checker and changed my mind about me the day before he died from being civ, to probably being bad. Epi made a really good case with statistic reasoning that even I couldn't ignore. It was probably the best case I've seen in a long time...but it was wrong. I was good, it was circumstantial, and as much as it appeared like a solid evidence based case, it was wrong. I can't tell you how frustrated I was that game. By the way, I could survive a lynch too, and I fought really hard to prevent my lynch that game. So at least consider all of that when you're looking at things.

Believe me, I know that I could be wrong, and that JJJ could be Civ. Like I said before, I truly was posting to let the thread know a very good reason why I suspected him less (before I factored in Lorab's control of the Position that day). I'm not tunnelling here. I have other suspicions. It's just that the evidence is practically glaring at this point. Considering everything JJJ has done that has made people feel like he's Civ, it comes down to one question: is he a skilled enough player to write these things as a baddie?

I'm not that good. I actually think I used to be but not any more. Could I be wrong? Hell yes, and I'm sure JJJ can totally pull it off. That said, all I have is my gut, my reads and how people come off looking to me. If I let your intuition, "evidence" and whatever, be what guides my decision, what's the point in me playing? I joined after the first day, so I don't know how I would have handled that, nor have I read it. I was right about Sig (and should have defended him stronger), I was right in my initial suspicion of Lorab (before I started doubting myself), and I though Epi and llama both acted quite reserved and weird (which is why I wasn't defending llama like I was other civvies), and I understand why now. I was also sure Golden and HB were good. Does it mean I'm going to be right about other things, most likely not, and I've probably suspected some innocent civvies as well, but I have to go with what I believe. Other than not posting the amount I expected from him on the day I joined, JJJ has done nothing to make me question him at all. I need at least something, other than "evidence" to make me consider voting for him. I don't have it.

"Evidence". I don't feel like you have even considered the idea that he is Kubrick at all. "Evidence". My cases even before the Kubrick thing were not fluff and bullshit.

Let me counter your point. If you don't let anyone's intuition and "evidence" guide your decision, is that the ideal way to play? I'm making points for you to consider, which you then act on or not, based on the likelihood of them being accurate. You are not expected to play based on my game, but I do expect you to at least give me a seat at your internal table.

FZ. wrote:LC, remember in Flash, I kept saying that you're playing a game that is too perfect and a little voice inside me keeps saying it's too good to be true? I ended up not following that little nagging suspicion when I should have. That was a very well crafted game where I consider a skilled player doing what you're suggesting JJJ is doing. The difference for me is, I don't think he's playing a perfect game. I have no idea how to convey to you what I mean when I say perfect, but that's where my doubts come from. JJJ has given me a genuine vibe all game. He's not trying to be overly helpful, he's not trying to buddy up to people. He's just doing what he thinks he should. At least that's how I'm reading him.

I do remember that. It was awesome, and one of my best baddie game ever. I have no rebuttal to this post, it appears that you have all the tools you need to make your decision. Remembering how I got the better of you by playing that kind of game is a valuable lesson.

Day 4:

JJJ = 1 (MM)
JJJ = 1, LLM = 1 (JJJ)
JJJ = 2 (LC), LLM = 1 (JJJ)
JJJ = 2, LLM = 1, Tranq = 1 (Boom)
JJJ = 2, LLM = 1, Tranq = 1, Dom = 1 (Ninja)
JJJ = 2, LLM = 2, Tranq = 2 (Sorsha), Dom = 1
JJJ = 2, LLM = 2, Tranq = 3 (Mac), Dom = 1
JJJ = 2, LLM = 2, Tranq = 3, Dom = 1, DH = 1 (Draco)
JJJ = 2, LLM = 2, Tranq = 4 (juliets), Dom = 1, DH = 1
JJJ = 2, LLM = 2, Tranq = 4, Dom = 1, DH = 2 (Llama)
JJJ = 2, LLM = 2, Tranq = 5 (DH), Dom = 1, DH = 2
JJJ = 2, LLM = 2, Tranq = 5, Dom = 1, DH = 2, Boom = 1 (Matt)
JJJ = 2, LLM = 3 (Matt), Tranq = 5, Dom = 1, DH = 2 (Boom loses 1)
JJJ = 2, LLM = 3, Tranq = 5, Dom = 1, DH = 3 (motel)
JJJ = 2, LLM = 4 (Llama), Tranq = 5, Dom = 1, DH = 3
JJJ = 2, LLM = 5 (Dom), Tranq = 5, Dom = 1, DH = 3
JJJ = 1, LLM = 5, Tranq = 5, Dom = 1, DH = 4 (MM) (JJJ loses 1)
JJJ = 1, LLM = 6 (MM), Tranq = 5, Dom = 1, DH = 3 (DH loses 1)
JJJ = 1, LLM = 7 (FZ), Tranq = 5, Dom = 1, DH = 3
JJJ = 1, LLM = 8 (Mac), Tranq = 4, Dom = 1, DH = 3 (Tranq loses 1)
JJJ = 1, LLM = 9 (bea), Tranq = 4, Dom = 1, DH = 3
JJJ = 1, LLM = 10 (Draco), Tranq = 4, Dom = 1, DH = 2 (DH loses 1)
JJJ = 1, LLM = 11 (juliets), Tranq = 3, Dom = 1, DH = 2 (Tranq loses 1)
JJJ = 1, LLM = 11, Tranq = 3, Dom = 2 (Wilgy), DH = 2
JJJ = 2 (Mac), LLM = 10, Tranq = 3, Dom = 2, DH = 2 (Llama loses 1)
JJJ = 2, LLM = 11 (BR), Tranq = 3, Dom = 2, DH = 2

LC, I didn't say your case on JJJ was bull or fluff, I just didn't agree with it. As for the evidence, I told you that it's the one thing that is making me doubt myself, so I am considering it. That said, my past experience with evidence is, that as much as it feels solid and well placed, it could be wrong, and if you go read Death Note mafia and Epig's case against me, you'll see what I mean.

After I read everything and take it all into consideration, your thoughts included, my gut feeling is all I have left. But I read and consider everything, which is why I ended up voting llama, by the way, even though my preference would have been Dom (which could totally be the wrong preference, by the way).


linki: I'm aware of that LC, I'm just saying that the difference between that game and this one, is that I don't have that nagging feeling I did with you. So either he's a better player than you :P , or he's a civ.

What is LLM, Rico?

teh llama

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

bea wrote:You know what sucks more? My play this cycle. I am sorry. Still dealing with work chaos and my hubby has been on my schedule the last two nights so having my "post work mafia catch up alone time" hasn't happened. This shall change soon.

It's only made tougher when you happen to join in while the thread is moving so fast at the end of the phase. Thanks for your effort bea.

I get that jj - I really do. The votes are tricky and all I have to add to my defense is I'm busy and I haven't read the whole thread. I appreciate that you do realize I'm trying.


Every time. Every stinking time I say, life has settled down some, I can play a game. All hell breaks loose in my RL. This time it happened literally 3 hours after I was announced in. LOL. Maybe God is telling me to cut the ties, but I love you lot so much.

After tomorrow, I move back to close at the beginning of the week, open at the end of the week. That will help me out with available time to play some.

I understand your case LC and though it drives me nuts to be seeing it again, the evidence you have can validly implicate me. I'm not sure what I can say in my defense beyond WIFOM, but I'll do it anyway:

Assuming the mafia team with the positions, if there is only one such team) communally benefits from those positions, then the lynch stop for Kubrick is probably not the only one they have left. In fact I know for sure that's still an active thing, so let's never vote position one in any night phase eh? Anyway as I was saying: I have the utmost confidence in myself that I can evade a lynch even when the pressure is at maximum, and I wouldn't feel the need to call for a lynch stop from my teamie's skillset -- I'd acquiesce that forced position right to some other ability in our collective and play my own game to get around the lynch pressure. If I had to identify a single trait as my strongest baddie skill, it'd be my ability to respond to pressure and move votes off of me. That's how I won the champs finale -- I was under pressure pretty much the whole game starting from the first half of the first day, but they waited until Day 4 to lynch me because I kept wiggling out of the noose.

This time I haven't resisted the noose that fervently. On Day 3.0 I knew I would survive either way because of my role. I did put effort into preventing the lynch because I wanted my ability to affect a night kill instead, but I still didn't fight it as hard as I usually have in the past. On Day 3.5 I literally welcomed my lynch and if LoRab hadn't been the lynch in that 4-way tie and FZ would have been, I'd have really regretted my own survival significantly (assuming I'm right that she's civilian). I knew then that people were too hung up on my case and that they only way to get over it would be for me to die. I told DharmaHelper as much when I practically asked for a lynch. I thought it was well in hand too when I left, but then the 4-way tie shenanigans developed and the rest is history.

Moreover, while I was under some pressure exiting Night 2, it wasn't intense pressure and I didn't feel like my lynch was imminent or even likely. I'd have felt the same way as a bad guy. There would have been better ways to use that position force of LoRab's, or at least I'd have felt that way.

It's all WIFOM, but that's all I can give you in response to a case built around someone else's role.

As for why I haven't been night killed, well... I think that's pretty clear. Just ask yourself how likely they are to kill me tonight with you yammering about lynching me and putting up numerous lengthy posts to support it?

Long Con wrote:

Dom wrote:Hey everyone: would you all say I ask lots of questions or nah?.

My experience with you is that asking a lot of questions is your usual detective style.

I agree with this. It's one of the things that tends to make Dom hard to read tbh. He tends to ask alot of questions regardless of alignment. Given her explanation of why FZ is leary of question asking Dom, I can see where that is coming from. But, no. I don't think Dom is bad soley because he's asking a lot of questions. He was trained to play the game by asking questions and looking for holes.

FZ. wrote:Wow, I did not see that coming. No idea what it means regarding the number of mafia teams.


LC, you're making me doubt myself with your case, but other than the Kubrick thing, I just don't get a baddie vibe from him. I can easily explain why he wasn't NK with the reasoning the baddies thought they could get him lynched. As for why baddies didn't take that bait you gave them, I think he was getting votes every day now, as well as the last day, but my thought is, baddies were feeling this train lost its momentum.

As for the Kubrick issue, it reminds me of Death Note game, when Russ died and was revealed to be a role checker and changed my mind about me the day before he died from being civ, to probably being bad. Epi made a really good case with statistic reasoning that even I couldn't ignore. It was probably the best case I've seen in a long time...but it was wrong. I was good, it was circumstantial, and as much as it appeared like a solid evidence based case, it was wrong. I can't tell you how frustrated I was that game. By the way, I could survive a lynch too, and I fought really hard to prevent my lynch that game. So at least consider all of that when you're looking at things.

This coupled with my knowlege of at least one host's love of balance is what's holding me back on JJ. If a baddie can't get lynched - then some civ must not be able to be lynched too. Otherwise the construction of the game outs the role. Doesn't it? Or am I not seeing something?

I get what you are saying LC, I really do. And I could be the dumbest person ever for not buying in on it, but I played Death Note too and I saw how all that shook out. And I'm not seeing anything else but well constructed circumstance since I've started playing to make me think JJ is bad.

Ricochet wrote:

Long Con wrote:
So the real deal is, you all followed a lynch on a player that was bogus. The points that made Llama seem bad were not accurate, and it's only luck that he wasn't a Civ.

No need to be this harsh. Firstly, the result is in favor of the civs, no matter how oddball the case was. One can inadvertedly catch a baddie with small stuff, silly pings or out-of-the-box sussing - sure, it won't rank as Greek masterful rhetoric stuff, and even the baddie might feel it wasn't fair for him to go down this way, but it is what it is. I think our Host SVS would agree with this.

Long Con wrote: It's really interesting that most everyone is ignoring the case that JJJ is Kubrick, despite him surviving a lynch on the day that it is probable that Kubrick would survive a lynch. You remember, right? A case based on "facts", instead of "how we think Lorab might distance in that post".

How a confirmed baddie might have distanced in his/her posts sounds fair of a case to me. Also, the Kubrick facts don't completely sink JJJ's boat, they just create doubt around him.

Long Con wrote: I want to REALLY focus on how interesting it is, actually. Lemme go look at how many votes JJJ got today. Last time I checked (a few hours ago), it was down to just me voting for him.

Here's the angle for you, and it really only resonates if you think that my (now) main case on JJJ has any realistic credibility. To recap that case as simply as possible, again: Lorab/Ozymandias was able to control the Day 3 Position. Kubrick survives a lynch on Position 1. JJJ was under suspicion going into Day 3. JJJ survived the lynch on Day 3. JJJ is probably Kubrick.

I happen to think that's enough to seriously consider that JJJ is Kubrick. I also had several other points of solid suspicion on JJJ even before that came up.

Yes, the reasoning here of the process is no-doubt solid. But, as I've said, it doesn't 100% make me pull the nuke switch on him.
Two auxiliary questions: 1) do you think a civ one-time survivor, the kind JJJ is openly claiming, could exist in the game, to balance out Kubrick's bad mad skills? 2) Do you think Kubrick's role could actually be the corrupted one? More precisely, do you think a civ role called Kubrick could encompass all the abilities written there (lynch immunity on one position, night kill immunity on four positions), just like it appears to do as a baddie?

Long Con wrote: If JJJ is a Civ, why did no baddies at all decide to back this case and go for his lynch?? If he's a Civ, he's a dangerous one. Look at his awesome all-player ISOs after a baddie dies! Those are very valuable references to have. And yet, a) no one voted for him today, and b) no one has tried to night kill him.

Macdougall threw a (joke?) vote his way long after the Llama train had left the station. Otherwise, just me. Today was filled to the brim with people pretty much ignoring the JJJ case. Are you telling me that no baddie at all would latch on to a case like this to lynch a Civ? He's practically served up on a silver platter.

But no votes. Think about that.

Don't know how to answer your first angle. Llama was, on the downside, a good magnet for baddies votes as well; they gain as much from his death. I suppose JJJ wasn't the main option for them this time? Would baddies just expose themselves by voting JJJ, with no strong momentum for JJJ to be voted, only because they fear his civvieness?

As for expecting high-posting, high-casing civilians to get swiftly removed during the Night, that's not a civilianesque thing to say to my ears.

Or you know, rico could just say better 2 posts later what I was trying to ask.

Long Con wrote:

FZ. wrote:LC, you're making me doubt myself with your case, but other than the Kubrick thing, I just don't get a baddie vibe from him.

I think this is the main reason why his lynch has totally lost steam. Such a Civvie vibe! Hey, JJJ, a question for you: are you an experienced enough Mafia player to be able to play a "Civ game" when you are not Civ? FZ, what is a baddie vibe? Is it something only baddies give off, uncontrollably, and Civs never have? Vibe. Vibe vibe vibe. Gut feel? Are you that good?

I can easily explain why he wasn't NK with the reasoning the baddies thought they could get him lynched. As for why baddies didn't take that bait you gave them, I think he was getting votes every day now, as well as the last day, but my thought is, baddies were feeling this train lost its momentum.

As for the Kubrick issue, it reminds me of Death Note game, when Russ died and was revealed to be a role checker and changed my mind about me the day before he died from being civ, to probably being bad. Epi made a really good case with statistic reasoning that even I couldn't ignore. It was probably the best case I've seen in a long time...but it was wrong. I was good, it was circumstantial, and as much as it appeared like a solid evidence based case, it was wrong. I can't tell you how frustrated I was that game. By the way, I could survive a lynch too, and I fought really hard to prevent my lynch that game. So at least consider all of that when you're looking at things.

Believe me, I know that I could be wrong, and that JJJ could be Civ. Like I said before, I truly was posting to let the thread know a very good reason why I suspected him less (before I factored in Lorab's control of the Position that day). I'm not tunnelling here. I have other suspicions. It's just that the evidence is practically glaring at this point. Considering everything JJJ has done that has made people feel like he's Civ, it comes down to one question: is he a skilled enough player to write these things as a baddie?

I hope you take this the complementary way it's intended.

I believe that JJ is a capable enough mafia player to snow me into thinking he's a civ EXACTLY as much as I think a capable baddie LC is able to use thread stuff to build a completely case on a civ while saying the whole time, "Guys, I'm just as doubtful as you are, but the evidence is there."

So. Yea.

bea wrote:

Long Con wrote:

FZ. wrote:LC, you're making me doubt myself with your case, but other than the Kubrick thing, I just don't get a baddie vibe from him.

I think this is the main reason why his lynch has totally lost steam. Such a Civvie vibe! Hey, JJJ, a question for you: are you an experienced enough Mafia player to be able to play a "Civ game" when you are not Civ? FZ, what is a baddie vibe? Is it something only baddies give off, uncontrollably, and Civs never have? Vibe. Vibe vibe vibe. Gut feel? Are you that good?

I can easily explain why he wasn't NK with the reasoning the baddies thought they could get him lynched. As for why baddies didn't take that bait you gave them, I think he was getting votes every day now, as well as the last day, but my thought is, baddies were feeling this train lost its momentum.

As for the Kubrick issue, it reminds me of Death Note game, when Russ died and was revealed to be a role checker and changed my mind about me the day before he died from being civ, to probably being bad. Epi made a really good case with statistic reasoning that even I couldn't ignore. It was probably the best case I've seen in a long time...but it was wrong. I was good, it was circumstantial, and as much as it appeared like a solid evidence based case, it was wrong. I can't tell you how frustrated I was that game. By the way, I could survive a lynch too, and I fought really hard to prevent my lynch that game. So at least consider all of that when you're looking at things.

Believe me, I know that I could be wrong, and that JJJ could be Civ. Like I said before, I truly was posting to let the thread know a very good reason why I suspected him less (before I factored in Lorab's control of the Position that day). I'm not tunnelling here. I have other suspicions. It's just that the evidence is practically glaring at this point. Considering everything JJJ has done that has made people feel like he's Civ, it comes down to one question: is he a skilled enough player to write these things as a baddie?

I hope you take this the complementary way it's intended.

I believe that JJ is a capable enough mafia player to snow me into thinking he's a civ EXACTLY as much as I think a capable baddie LC is able to use thread stuff to build a completely case on a civ while saying the whole time, "Guys, I'm just as doubtful as you are, but the evidence is there."

So. Yea.

This is running through my head from time to time as well. He's used JJJ as his suspect the entire game, and he comes off the most genuine when pushing that case, but if I really had to choose, I feel there's more chance of LC being the scum here, than JJJ.

a) I don't understand rico's spreadsheet, but then again, I never do.

b) should we talk at all about the night poll? Do we think all the positions are in order? Cuz I really want to vote for a well stocked bar, but if it could potentially be bad maybe not? IDK?

linki - my distrust of LC is pretty well documented FZ. He's really really good at this game. This how I feel during every game I play with LC - I'm all Mulder. I want to believe. More than any single player I've ever played with, I have a hard time 100 percent trusting LC. It's not fair to him. I know. It is what it is. That said, he's a stand up guy and kind as the day is long. I adore the dickens out of him. Also - most people don't know this, but he has a lovely singing voice.

also - wtf was up with my phrasing up there? "use thread stuff to build a completely believable case" is how that should have read.

I srrsly need to be not on the same schedule as the hubby if I want to mafia - he's been tempting me for hours with tv catch up - previews for Arrow and Game of Thrones, teefurry kitty shirts and stickers for my car.

bea wrote:a) I don't understand rico's spreadsheet, but then again, I never do.

b) should we talk at all about the night poll? Do we think all the positions are in order? Cuz I really want to vote for a well stocked bar, but if it could potentially be bad maybe not? IDK?

linki - my distrust of LC is pretty well documented FZ. He's really really good at this game. This how I feel during every game I play with LC - I'm all Mulder. I want to believe. More than any single player I've ever played with, I have a hard time 100 percent trusting LC. It's not fair to him. I know. It is what it is. That said, he's a stand up guy and kind as the day is long. I adore the dickens out of him. Also - most people don't know this, but he has a lovely singing voice.

also - wtf was up with my phrasing up there? "use thread stuff to build a completely believable case" is how that should have read.

I srrsly need to be not on the same schedule as the hubby if I want to mafia - he's been tempting me for hours with tv catch up - previews for Arrow and Game of Thrones, teefurry kitty shirts and stickers for my car.

I've been contemplating LC since the beginning of the game, but always come up with nothing. The two biggest problems I have with him are:

a. his continued suspicion of JJJ and unwillingness to budge. I think civvies waver, they hesitate. He's not hesitating.
b. The fact that when I said I was worried about him not wavering, he turned it right back at me and made it look like I was making him look bad or something. I felt like it was exactly what I did last game I played, and I was bad. When people doubted me, I made their suspicion look ridiculous and even scummier. At least that is what I tried to do.

So yeah, maybe it is time we discuss LC.

I've seen what you see since I've replaced in.

Here's my problem, if there was other stuff pre when I replaced in, even going back and rereading it, I'm not getting it in the same tone and same content as it was intended. So I'm sure if JJ or LC are baddies, either of them could color what happened in such a way that if I went back and reread it, I could see where they are coming from. Does that make sense?

I would like to hear more from LC regarding everyone else. For me, personally, his lazor focus on JJ is either a) he's that convinced he's right or b) baddie tactic.

So he could either be like Sorsha and BR was regarding Lorab -

Or like lorab was in being super not happy about almost being lynched and then never answering any of my questions hoping it would all blow under the table. (this is not the exact same scenario I know, but I think it's close enough? maybe?) I want to believe in good LC. I want to believe this is a thing that can exist in a game I play. I would absolutely ADORE having a civ LC on my team.

Or c - there are two baddie teams and he is both correct and bad.

I agree with what you guys both said in terms of understanding your train of thought, and Imma let you finish. But JaggedJimmyJay had the greatest video of all time.

Of ALL time.

bea wrote:a) I don't understand rico's spreadsheet, but then again, I never do.

b) should we talk at all about the night poll? Do we think all the positions are in order? Cuz I really want to vote for a well stocked bar, but if it could potentially be bad maybe not? IDK?

a)

It's how people voted (all their votes, whether temp or permanent) and the vote count on each player that received votes. Underlined are new votes each step of the way.

b) I think the poll options highlight positions 1 to 5, top to bottom, so you should stay off the booze lol, except if you're the kind who party with Kubrick

Don't you think that at this stage, if we figured out the poll is positions, the hosts my shift positions around and not fit it to chronological order?

No?

If only baddies have positions, why would Hosts screw with them by mixing the positions in secret? What the positions mean is THEIR information (sorry, lazy to italics on mobile, not shouting or anything), which they can try to manipulate to obtain certain positions...

Alternatively, Why would they screw with US by doing the same, if our only hope right now is avoiding the positions we know something about?