The Syndicate

speedchuck wrote:If someone comes up with a good reason behind the kill, I'll praise Cuthulu.

speedchuck wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:unvote

vote speedchuck

What? Are you jabbing me for a reaction? Seems to me like this came out of nowhere.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

speedchuck wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:unvote

vote speedchuck

What? Are you jabbing me for a reaction? Seems to me like this came out of nowhere.

I tracked you killing Scotty last night. Sorry pal. No use spilling the beans without fostering an environment where people have to solve though. It can help find the other evil-doer.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

speedchuck wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:unvote

vote speedchuck

What? Are you jabbing me for a reaction? Seems to me like this came out of nowhere.

I tracked you killing Scotty last night. Sorry pal. No use spilling the beans without fostering an environment where people have to solve though. It can help find the other evil-doer.

speedchuck wrote:Bruh.

I didn't visit scotty last night.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

juliets wrote:The evidence that they still exist is we had a kill last night and no one seems to have heard of an sk who inherits a mafia kill.

There's definitely a precedent for inherited kills on The Syndicate. It might not be so for sprityo's homeland. It should also be stated that the likely LMS independent here is not a serial killer but instead a marker/demo man. Who knows what kind of mechanical details that entails.

Fredwood wrote:If it's a forced inherit, it makes even less sense than before for the marker to off the entire mafia when they did.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

speedchuck wrote:Bruh.

I didn't visit scotty last night.

Clearly something is up then. Who'd you visit?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Fredwood wrote:If it's a forced inherit, it makes even less sense than before for the marker to off the entire mafia when they did.

So the marker knew Golden and Quin were scum?

speedchuck wrote:You could have asked without giving me bs about scotty

Fredwood wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Fredwood wrote:If it's a forced inherit, it makes even less sense than before for the marker to off the entire mafia when they did.

So the marker knew Golden and Quin were scum?

I'd think they thought there would be a high probability that at least one of them were.

speedchuck wrote:There are certain targets in the game that I can visit that are of benefit to me, and by extension town. I was given their names at game start. 3 of them. All but one has flipped already. Unfortunately, one was Marmot. The second was Nutella. You weren't the third.

I get a doublevote the day after I find one.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Fredwood wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Fredwood wrote:If it's a forced inherit, it makes even less sense than before for the marker to off the entire mafia when they did.

So the marker knew Golden and Quin were scum?

I'd think they thought there would be a high probability that at least one of them were.

That's not the argument you're making. You're talking about the strategy inherent to the marker eliminating the mafia team, something they couldn't have known. Indeed, your argument appears backwards to me. In a scenario where the marker inherits the kill, wouldn't they have more incentive to eliminate the mafia team? Removing other players from the game is the most fundamental means for any anti-town player to move closer to their win condition.

Fredwood wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Fredwood wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Fredwood wrote:If it's a forced inherit, it makes even less sense than before for the marker to off the entire mafia when they did.

So the marker knew Golden and Quin were scum?

I'd think they thought there would be a high probability that at least one of them were.

That's not the argument you're making. You're talking about the strategy inherent to the marker eliminating the mafia team, something they couldn't have known. Indeed, your argument appears backwards to me. In a scenario where the marker inherits the kill, wouldn't they have more incentive to eliminate the mafia team? Removing other players from the game is the most fundamental means for any anti-town player to move closer to their win condition.

In hindsight one can say almost anything about inference of an autopsied players guilt. He knew that he marks on Quin and Golden, and that there was a definite possibility that they were mafia. If they were gaming the numbers, that would make the whole 5 mafia thing stuck in their mind.

So if I'm the marker, I activate the kill, there's a better than 50 percent chance, to my estimation that the entire mafia gets eliminated. Yes, 3 players removed is beneficial to them, but not when the removal of all 3 of those players leave you in a 1v7 scenario with no other way to reduce the numbers. I'm not saying that they knew for sure that Quin and Golden were mafia, I'm saying they had to think it was a possibility. With that knowledge it puts them in a distinct advantage in the end game if they have a killswitch on scum. Why sacrifice your advantage when the majority of your success is luck dependent anyway?

To me the only way you make that play is if you don't feel that you are in danger of being lynched in a 1v7 situation or a POE scenario but are in danger of being NK'd.

Additionally I disagree about wanting to inherit a forced NK. The very nature of the role makes it hard to counter by standard methods, especially with its built in counter being dead. A forced NK takes away that advantage and turns the SK into something that can be either prevented, misdirected or seen.

Fredwood wrote:To me the only way you make that play is if you don't feel that you are in danger of being lynched in a 1v7 situation or a POE scenario but are in danger of being NK'd.

speedchuck wrote:Jeremy Bellic
Cara O' Neil
Robert Crawford

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Fredwood wrote:To me the only way you make that play is if you don't feel that you are in danger of being lynched in a 1v7 situation or a POE scenario but are in danger of being NK'd.

So what exactly do you propose the marker should have done? We know already that Quin and Golden were definitely marked by some means or another. Maybe they were marked earlier in the game before suspicion began to mount.

What should the marker do with that?

Fredwood wrote:I would have sat on it. Neither of them were likely dying that phase, Long Con was pretty much dead.

A Mafia NK and another mark makes the numbers 8 people with kill control over 3 of them. I let everyone bicker between Golden and Quin activate bomb late in the phase, leave 5 people and mark/kill another person. Leaving myself in a 1v3 situation.

To me it's a much more manageable situation if I wait one day, because my activation are in no danger of dying before then.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Fredwood wrote:I would have sat on it. Neither of them were likely dying that phase, Long Con was pretty much dead.

A Mafia NK and another mark makes the numbers 8 people with kill control over 3 of them. I let everyone bicker between Golden and Quin activate bomb late in the phase, leave 5 people and mark/kill another person. Leaving myself in a 1v3 situation.

To me it's a much more manageable situation if I wait one day, because my activation are in no danger of dying before then.

Problems immediately arising here:

1. Your argument is built around your pursuit of a superior numbers scenario, like the 1 vs. 3 situation. This still relies entirely upon the marker knowing that Golden and Quin are scum. If even one of them is not, then instead of 3 town vs. 1 rogue it's 2 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are, then it's 1 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. The best case in those is a kingmaker scenario where the townies vote on the winner against their will. Consider the current scenario again under the same circumstances:

If the mafia are eliminated, then right now it is presumably 6 town vs. 1 rogue. The marker couldn't know the mafia would be eliminated. If one of Quin and Golden is scum, it's 5 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are scum, it's 4 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. These aren't terrible situations for an LMS player either.

2. Quin and Golden were almost certainly not the only players marked. The marker could have expected someone else to die too, perhaps a town read, but that player had been demarked by Jack or otherwise redirected by one of the bus drivers.

3. This again hinges on the notion that the marker has a choice regarding when the detonation occurs. I have personally written a demo man role where there was no element of choice -- Strawhenge mentioned it earlier today.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Do you feel like you've been productive with the role you do have, Fred?

Fredwood wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Do you feel like you've been productive with the role you do have, Fred?

Considering it was a one shot that I used on scum with an even night power on an odd night...not likely.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Fredwood wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Do you feel like you've been productive with the role you do have, Fred?

Considering it was a one shot that I used on scum with an even night power on an odd night...not likely.

If it's over with then is there anything to stop you from claiming it now? I don't recall seeing a claim from you.

Fredwood wrote:I'm a Seducer, once per game I can target a player that I lure back to my room, removing them from the game for that night. Additionally I could ask a yes or no question. I asked if Soneji was town and got a "no"

I seduced Soneji on N3 and asked if he was town, got a no. Why is why I was saying I wouldn't vote for anyone but Soneji on Day 4.

Fredwood wrote:Also, I believe I was still concerned about info dumping being a modkillalbe offense, so I wasn't sure how to say I had information without saying I had information, so I kept bringing up his name as much as I could in order to get people to not forget about him.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'm less concerned about your voting behavior, Fred. What I'm trying to understand is why there is no real indicator in your posts on Day 4 that you knew Soneji was not a member of the town faction. That is a very significant claim you have made -- you literally knew through information derived from your role that Soneji was not to be trusted -- I'd expect that to show up in your posts. You needn't have necessarily claimed it outright, but it should have been very clear that you wanted to lynch Soneji and only Soneji. No other suspicion could have possibly contended with what you knew.

Especially in that final EOD sequence when Quin, Long Con, and Soneji were all under so much pressure and it became clear that one of them would die -- why didn't you do everything in your power to ensure it was Soneji who was lynched? You didn't have the same advantage of information about Quin or Long Con, so there's no feasible reason you could have been okay with lynching either of them when you knew the Soneji option would result in a non-town flip. Please just walk me through what you were doing there, because it isn't making sense to me.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Fredwood wrote:Also, I believe I was still concerned about info dumping being a modkillalbe offense, so I wasn't sure how to say I had information without saying I had information, so I kept bringing up his name as much as I could in order to get people to not forget about him.

?

By that point in the game, I had openly claimed tracker. Golden had openly claimed watcher. Silver Lantern had openly claimed vigilante. nutella had openly claimed one-shot day cop. What was there to be concerned about?

Fredwood wrote:Additionally, if I could have gotten him lynched without spilling everything it's a much better situation to be in, no more information is released to mafia then is needed.

Fredwood wrote:I lied and ruined my poetic sendoff, but I caught that at the end.

I know it's a one-shot, they don't know it's a one shot. Even if I say it's a one shot, how likely are they to believe me anyway?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Fredwood wrote:I lied and ruined my poetic sendoff, but I caught that at the end.

I know it's a one-shot, they don't know it's a one shot. Even if I say it's a one shot, how likely are they to believe me anyway?

So they kill you while you're vanilla and the active roles press on. That's a good thing!

At this point it's strategic critique which isn't the greatest determinant of alignment. So we'll see how I feel in the morning. Maybe I will solve the game in a dream and all of you will witness my great epiphany.

Fredwood wrote:
Damn. Oh, God...though I have to write down this role for my future games if I run any. As a mod I love the idea for a neutral killer, as a player it's fucking terrifying lol.

Fredwood wrote:

juliets wrote:

Sloonei wrote:My first thought when I see something about marking is a demolition man.

Could you explain what that is?

<snipped gif>

No idea what a marker is or what a Demolition Man is.

sprityo wrote:It's that time AAAAAAAAAAAAAA

VOTALS:

Soneji (4): speedchuck, Sloonei, Scotty, juliets
Quin (5): Golden, Strawhenge, MP, Long Con, JJJ
Long Con (3): Quin, Soneji, Dyslexicon,


With 13 Alive it takes 7 to Lynch, 3 to Soft Lynch

Day ends in 25 minutes

sprityo wrote:It's Dare

VOTALS:

Soneji (5): speedchuck, Sloonei, Scotty, juliets, JJJ,
Quin (4): Golden, Strawhenge, Long Con, MP
Long Con (3): Quin, Soneji, Dyslexicon,


With 13 Alive it takes 7 to Lynch, 3 to Soft Lynch

Day ends in 15 minutes

juliets wrote:Fred, can you explain this seeming discrepancy? When Jack flipped as a marker and the subject of demo man came up you said:

Fredwood wrote:
Damn. Oh, God...though I have to write down this role for my future games if I run any. As a mod I love the idea for a neutral killer, as a player it's fucking terrifying lol.

and this:

Fredwood wrote:

juliets wrote:

Sloonei wrote:My first thought when I see something about marking is a demolition man.

Could you explain what that is?

We were talking about the demo man being a random detonation based ability, not what it is.

<snipped gif>

No idea what a marker is or what a Demolition Man is.

Yet last night in the discussion with JJJ you said this (see underlined comment by JJJ and underlined corresponding comment by you):

Spoiler: show

Fredwood wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Fredwood wrote:I would have sat on it. Neither of them were likely dying that phase, Long Con was pretty much dead.

A Mafia NK and another mark makes the numbers 8 people with kill control over 3 of them. I let everyone bicker between Golden and Quin activate bomb late in the phase, leave 5 people and mark/kill another person. Leaving myself in a 1v3 situation.

To me it's a much more manageable situation if I wait one day, because my activation are in no danger of dying before then.

Problems immediately arising here:

1. Your argument is built around your pursuit of a superior numbers scenario, like the 1 vs. 3 situation. This still relies entirely upon the marker knowing that Golden and Quin are scum. If even one of them is not, then instead of 3 town vs. 1 rogue it's 2 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are, then it's 1 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. The best case in those is a kingmaker scenario where the townies vote on the winner against their will. Consider the current scenario again under the same circumstances:

If the mafia are eliminated, then right now it is presumably 6 town vs. 1 rogue. The marker couldn't know the mafia would be eliminated. If one of Quin and Golden is scum, it's 5 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are scum, it's 4 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. These aren't terrible situations for an LMS player either.

2. Quin and Golden were almost certainly not the only players marked. The marker could have expected someone else to die too, perhaps a town read, but that player had been demarked by Jack or otherwise redirected by one of the bus drivers.

3. This again hinges on the notion that the marker has a choice regarding when the detonation occurs. I have personally written a demo man role where there was no element of choice -- Strawhenge mentioned it earlier today.

3. So did I. The reason I have a hard time digesting the time of detonation is when it occurred. Why does spirit make it more difficult for himself to put a random time on it. Second, why do both activation go off at the same time? If it's random, wouldn't they have gone off separately based on when they were marked not together?


As for the rest.

1. No, it does not. My point is that there had to be a pretty good idea in their head that they were both scum. If I think there's a 50 percent chance that Quin, Golden or LongCon are all scum, I'm happy to let day 5 play out without interference. It's too big of a risk to eliminate the NK, imo.

In the scenario you posited, yes, they're not bad, but they're also not better then a scenario if you wait a day. If they wait a day and one of them is town and one is scum, they're in an even better situation, because then you're in a 2 v 1 v 1 scenario the next day or at worst a 3 v 1 v 1 because it's definitely MYLO at that point.

2. Jack posted all of his targets in thread, so there's no reason for one to expect other marks to go off if Jack visited people he marked earlier, or they're already dead. It would have been very easy for him to know who was marked based off of the information shared in thread.

So in one place you're saying you never heard of a demo man and in another place you are saying you have put it in a game before. Is there something here I am misunderstanding?

Fredwood wrote:

juliets wrote:Fred, can you explain this seeming discrepancy? When Jack flipped as a marker and the subject of demo man came up you said:

Fredwood wrote:
Damn. Oh, God...though I have to write down this role for my future games if I run any. As a mod I love the idea for a neutral killer, as a player it's fucking terrifying lol.

and this:

Fredwood wrote:

juliets wrote:

Sloonei wrote:My first thought when I see something about marking is a demolition man.

Could you explain what that is?

We were talking about the demo man being a random detonation based ability, not what it is.

<snipped gif>

No idea what a marker is or what a Demolition Man is.

Yet last night in the discussion with JJJ you said this (see underlined comment by JJJ and underlined corresponding comment by you):

Spoiler: show

Fredwood wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Fredwood wrote:I would have sat on it. Neither of them were likely dying that phase, Long Con was pretty much dead.

A Mafia NK and another mark makes the numbers 8 people with kill control over 3 of them. I let everyone bicker between Golden and Quin activate bomb late in the phase, leave 5 people and mark/kill another person. Leaving myself in a 1v3 situation.

To me it's a much more manageable situation if I wait one day, because my activation are in no danger of dying before then.

Problems immediately arising here:

1. Your argument is built around your pursuit of a superior numbers scenario, like the 1 vs. 3 situation. This still relies entirely upon the marker knowing that Golden and Quin are scum. If even one of them is not, then instead of 3 town vs. 1 rogue it's 2 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are, then it's 1 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. The best case in those is a kingmaker scenario where the townies vote on the winner against their will. Consider the current scenario again under the same circumstances:

If the mafia are eliminated, then right now it is presumably 6 town vs. 1 rogue. The marker couldn't know the mafia would be eliminated. If one of Quin and Golden is scum, it's 5 town vs. 1 scum vs. 1 rogue. If neither of them are scum, it's 4 town vs. 2 scum vs. 1 rogue. These aren't terrible situations for an LMS player either.

2. Quin and Golden were almost certainly not the only players marked. The marker could have expected someone else to die too, perhaps a town read, but that player had been demarked by Jack or otherwise redirected by one of the bus drivers.

3. This again hinges on the notion that the marker has a choice regarding when the detonation occurs. I have personally written a demo man role where there was no element of choice -- Strawhenge mentioned it earlier today.

3. So did I. The reason I have a hard time digesting the time of detonation is when it occurred. Why does spirit make it more difficult for himself to put a random time on it. Second, why do both activation go off at the same time? If it's random, wouldn't they have gone off separately based on when they were marked not together?


As for the rest.

1. No, it does not. My point is that there had to be a pretty good idea in their head that they were both scum. If I think there's a 50 percent chance that Quin, Golden or LongCon are all scum, I'm happy to let day 5 play out without interference. It's too big of a risk to eliminate the NK, imo.

In the scenario you posited, yes, they're not bad, but they're also not better then a scenario if you wait a day. If they wait a day and one of them is town and one is scum, they're in an even better situation, because then you're in a 2 v 1 v 1 scenario the next day or at worst a 3 v 1 v 1 because it's definitely MYLO at that point.

2. Jack posted all of his targets in thread, so there's no reason for one to expect other marks to go off if Jack visited people he marked earlier, or they're already dead. It would have been very easy for him to know who was marked based off of the information shared in thread.

So in one place you're saying you never heard of a demo man and in another place you are saying you have put it in a game before. Is there something here I am misunderstanding?