The Syndicate

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:32 pm I don't get why we are assuming that the mafia team does not want the gun.

Because being directly responsible for killing a civ is never a good look.

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:34 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:32 pm I don't get why we are assuming that the mafia team does not want the gun.

Because being directly responsible for killing a civ is never a good look.

It is Day 1, and any player that gets the gun is going to be getting it because they are generally trusted by a majority. Being wrong and shooting the wrong person, especially on Day 1, is not a death sentence for anybody. It's a losing strategy for the mafia team to hide from that. I would not expect certain players to pursue that route. nutella is among them.

You know the amount of people suggesting mafia would decide to just play badly is forcing me to consider mafia are going to decide to play badly, but I assume there is at least one person on their team who understand mechanics so...

Mafia should want the gun unless there is someone very strong willed who won't listen to partners, but also doesn't understand themselves that it is optimal for mafia to get the gun

Duskfall wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:38 pm You know the amount of people suggesting mafia would decide to just play badly is forcing me to consider mafia are going to decide to play badly, but I assume there is at least one person on their team who understand mechanics so...

Mafia should want the gun unless there is someone very strong willed who won't listen to partners, but also doesn't understand themselves that it is optimal for mafia to get the gun

I could vote to give the gun to the author of this post.

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:34 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:32 pm I don't get why we are assuming that the mafia team does not want the gun.

Because being directly responsible for killing a civ is never a good look.

Assuming someone is scum for having a bad read is never a good look.

Duskfall wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:38 pm You know the amount of people suggesting mafia would decide to just play badly is forcing me to consider mafia are going to decide to play badly, but I assume there is at least one person on their team who understand mechanics so...

Mafia should want the gun unless there is someone very strong willed who won't listen to partners, but also doesn't understand themselves that it is optimal for mafia to get the gun

Thank you for being sane

If anything mafia should be more eager to get the gun on D1 specifically, because someone who kills a townie on D1 when we don't know anything isn't going to get much scrutiny for just being wrong.

nutella wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:43 pm

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:34 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:32 pm I don't get why we are assuming that the mafia team does not want the gun.

Because being directly responsible for killing a civ is never a good look.

Assuming someone is scum for having a bad read is never a good look.

Not being a good look isn't the same as assuming they're mafia. But if the shooter gets 4 choices to shoot from the thread, and shoots a civ, and then later one (or two) of those 4 turns out to be mafia, that would make re-examining the shooter necessary.

Civ deaths are always an inevitably, but making no effort to mine from those deaths is just wasteful.

nutella wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:45 pm If anything mafia should be more eager to get the gun on D1 specifically, because someone who kills a townie on D1 when we don't know anything isn't going to get much scrutiny for just being wrong.

But then they should get scrutiny for not getting poisoned.

Unless the mafia team doesn't poison them to get the town to waste a shot on them. Except then ... except then ... except then.

It's almost like that's entirely WIFOM.

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:55 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:45 pm If anything mafia should be more eager to get the gun on D1 specifically, because someone who kills a townie on D1 when we don't know anything isn't going to get much scrutiny for just being wrong.

But then they should get scrutiny for not getting poisoned.

Unless the mafia team doesn't poison them to get the town to waste a shot on them. Except then ... except then ... except then.

It's almost like that's entirely WIFOM.

Are you implying mafia don't want to look towny because it would make them look scummy later?

leetic wrote: ↑Sun May 10, 2020 2:31 am 4. Poisoned players can still vote but will not be able to receive the gun.

Are you suggesting that the mafia team can functionally block each lynch by simply poisoning the player we give the gun to? I interpret this rule as saying that the poisoned player can't be given the gun the following day, the day on which they are poisoned. The game would be broken if the mafia team had a mechanic to prevent every single lynch from going through.

that was directed at boo

Duskfall wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:57 pm

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:55 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:45 pm If anything mafia should be more eager to get the gun on D1 specifically, because someone who kills a townie on D1 when we don't know anything isn't going to get much scrutiny for just being wrong.

But then they should get scrutiny for not getting poisoned.

Unless the mafia team doesn't poison them to get the town to waste a shot on them. Except then ... except then ... except then.

It's almost like that's entirely WIFOM.

Are you implying mafia don't want to look towny because it would make them look scummy later?

No. I'm saying there's too many variables for that to be a useful insight into the mindset of how the the mafia could/should be playing.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:32 pm I don't get why we are assuming that the mafia team does not want the gun.

If you’re gonna quote me at least credit me

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:55 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:45 pm If anything mafia should be more eager to get the gun on D1 specifically, because someone who kills a townie on D1 when we don't know anything isn't going to get much scrutiny for just being wrong.

But then they should get scrutiny for not getting poisoned.

Unless the mafia team doesn't poison them to get the town to waste a shot on them. Except then ... except then ... except then.

It's almost like that's entirely WIFOM.

True, it is pretty much an endless wifom loop. And I've hardly even thought about the poisoning stuff yet.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:58 pm

leetic wrote: ↑Sun May 10, 2020 2:31 am 4. Poisoned players can still vote but will not be able to receive the gun.

Are you suggesting that the mafia team can functionally block each lynch by simply poisoning the player we give the gun to? I interpret this rule as saying that the poisoned player can't be given the gun the following day, the day on which they are poisoned. The game would be broken if the mafia team had a mechanic to prevent every single lynch from going through.

Sloonei is correct, the order is someone is voted to get the gun -> night happens, person shoots and someone gets poisoned -> next day, poisoned person cannot be voted and someone else is voted to get gun. I thought boo was just saying that mafia would poison the previous gun-holder so the same person couldn't shoot twice in a row? Maybe I misread

Oh wait the same person can't get the gun twice in a row anyway.

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 4:00 pm

Duskfall wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:57 pm

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:55 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:45 pm If anything mafia should be more eager to get the gun on D1 specifically, because someone who kills a townie on D1 when we don't know anything isn't going to get much scrutiny for just being wrong.

But then they should get scrutiny for not getting poisoned.

Unless the mafia team doesn't poison them to get the town to waste a shot on them. Except then ... except then ... except then.

It's almost like that's entirely WIFOM.

Are you implying mafia don't want to look towny because it would make them look scummy later?

No. I'm saying there's too many variables for that to be a useful insight into the mindset of how the the mafia could/should be playing.

So you put forward the argument that mafia don't want the gun

Nutella disagrees saying they do

And you are now saying Nutella is wrong because there are too many variables to decide if mafia want the gun or not?

Yeah actually I don't follow boo's point about the poisoning lol

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:58 pm

leetic wrote: ↑Sun May 10, 2020 2:31 am 4. Poisoned players can still vote but will not be able to receive the gun.

Are you suggesting that the mafia team can functionally block each lynch by simply poisoning the player we give the gun to? I interpret this rule as saying that the poisoned player can't be given the gun the following day, the day on which they are poisoned. The game would be broken if the mafia team had a mechanic to prevent every single lynch from going through.

No. I'm suggesting that in general the town should be giving the gun to the most townread person. Using their teamkill on the most townread person at about half the time is one of the more obvious and direct strategies I can see the mafia using for how to determine their kills.

You're obviously right the mafia can't block the kill. N1 the player who shoots will have been selected D1, and the mafia will poison someone which takes effect D2. Both the N1 shooter and poisonee can't get the gun, because you can't shoot twice in a row (for the shooter) and they'd be dead (the poisonee). And so on.

Tbh I think the primary takeaway is that boo is much better at site improvements than playing mafia

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 4:06 pm Tbh I think the primary takeaway is that boo is much better at site improvements than playing mafia

I loled

Duskfall wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 4:04 pm

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 4:00 pm

Duskfall wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:57 pm

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:55 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:45 pm If anything mafia should be more eager to get the gun on D1 specifically, because someone who kills a townie on D1 when we don't know anything isn't going to get much scrutiny for just being wrong.

But then they should get scrutiny for not getting poisoned.

Unless the mafia team doesn't poison them to get the town to waste a shot on them. Except then ... except then ... except then.

It's almost like that's entirely WIFOM.

Are you implying mafia don't want to look towny because it would make them look scummy later?

No. I'm saying there's too many variables for that to be a useful insight into the mindset of how the the mafia could/should be playing.

So you put forward the argument that mafia don't want the gun

Nutella disagrees saying they do

And you are now saying Nutella is wrong because there are too many variables to decide if mafia want the gun or not?

On a general trend, no, I'm not saying mafia don't want it. My point was always knowing their intent as a collective has too many variables.

But, and this is the relevant bit, I don't think nutella specifically is trying to get the gun. And in her specific case, I think that's indicative of her being mafia.

nutella wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 4:01 pm

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:55 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:45 pm If anything mafia should be more eager to get the gun on D1 specifically, because someone who kills a townie on D1 when we don't know anything isn't going to get much scrutiny for just being wrong.

But then they should get scrutiny for not getting poisoned.

Unless the mafia team doesn't poison them to get the town to waste a shot on them. Except then ... except then ... except then.

It's almost like that's entirely WIFOM.

True, it is pretty much an endless wifom loop. And I've hardly even thought about the poisoning stuff yet.

nutella wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 4:04 pm Oh wait the same person can't get the gun twice in a row anyway.

You only just realizing basic fundamentals of the game that has been information since the game was in signups might be the first thing you've said that I could entirely believe so far.

So you think nutella specifically doesn’t want the gun D1 as scum.

Why?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:58 pm

leetic wrote: ↑Sun May 10, 2020 2:31 am 4. Poisoned players can still vote but will not be able to receive the gun.

Are you suggesting that the mafia team can functionally block each lynch by simply poisoning the player we give the gun to? I interpret this rule as saying that the poisoned player can't be given the gun the following day, the day on which they are poisoned. The game would be broken if the mafia team had a mechanic to prevent every single lynch from going through.

The way you interpreted it is correct, it will not be able to stop the shooting from going through

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 4:24 pm So you think nutella specifically doesn’t want the gun D1 as scum.

Why?

She would want it as town, and make a pretty noticeable effort to form a base that townreads her and will vote for her. That lack of any effort at forming a base (and her explanation for it: Hyena and I suspecting her) is suspicious to me. Anyone town should be on a strong offensive, and that's what her offensive in this format is what I think we'd see. It isn't what I'm seeing from her, I'm seeing some posturing offense and way to much of a defensive mindset. It doesn't fit.

I think that nutella looks to be earnestly trying to solve the game. I don't care about campaigning to get the gun. I think that's a task left to other people. The player most likely to get the gun, and in my mind the player working the hardest to get the gun, is the one who puts in the most transparent civilian effort to solve the game. nutella is on the short list of people who I feel qualify for that decision.

I feel like boo is projecting a supposed strategy onto her. I don't think the route he is proposing is the only way a player can go about earning credibility in this game.

I town read boo as well.

[mention]Duskfall[/mention]
[mention]Hyena[/mention]

Who are you shooting if you get the gun and why?

If you’ve already said in the last page, welp, I’ll read that later.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 4:39 pm @Duskfall
@Hyena

Who are you shooting if you get the gun and why?

If you’ve already said in the last page, welp, I’ll read that later.

Probably boo is who I want dead the most rn because everything he says feels like bs, literally can't believe a word coming out of him and it feels full of scum agenda, also kind of inconsistent how he's thinking about the game as a whole which makes it seem made up

I will be discussing it with other people at night though cause apparently night phase is open here and I assume I could shoot at the end

why the hell has the poll been condensed to two options for so long?

also when is the deadline?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 4:54 pm also when is the deadline?

10pm EST, today.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 4:54 pm why the hell has the poll been condensed to two options for so long?

I think it is because me and hyena have widely different perspectives so people are afraid to switch off in case it makes the other wagon win? Idk, it is a bit weird but I do think these are good wagons for competing purposes even if hyena getting the gun would be a nightmare

Does anyone distrust me with the gun?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:01 pm Does anyone distrust me with the gun?

I have no reason to think you are town rn

Duskfall wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:01 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:01 pm Does anyone distrust me with the gun?

I have no reason to think you are town rn

That's a solid non-answer.

[mention]Sloonei[/mention] : Top 3-5 it for people you'd like to see shot so I can actually answer?

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:03 pm

Duskfall wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:01 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:01 pm Does anyone distrust me with the gun?

I have no reason to think you are town rn

That's a solid non-answer.

@Sloonei : Top 3-5 it for people you'd like to see shot so I can actually answer?

Does my non-answer tell you anything?

Duskfall wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:04 pm

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:03 pm

Duskfall wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:01 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:01 pm Does anyone distrust me with the gun?

I have no reason to think you are town rn

That's a solid non-answer.

@Sloonei : Top 3-5 it for people you'd like to see shot so I can actually answer?

Does my non-answer tell you anything?

No, it only reinforces how absurd the people voting to give you the gun are.

Duskfall wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:01 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:01 pm Does anyone distrust me with the gun?

I have no reason to think you are town rn

That is a fair answer. We've never met.

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:03 pm

Duskfall wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:01 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:01 pm Does anyone distrust me with the gun?

I have no reason to think you are town rn

That's a solid non-answer.

@Sloonei : Top 3-5 it for people you'd like to see shot so I can actually answer?

funnygurl and mac are the two people I'd lean toward right now. But I still maintain that it's silly to expect anyone to have determined their target already.

The two leading wagons are two people who do not play on this site regularly.

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:07 pm

Duskfall wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:04 pm

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:03 pm

Duskfall wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:01 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:01 pm Does anyone distrust me with the gun?

I have no reason to think you are town rn

That's a solid non-answer.

@Sloonei : Top 3-5 it for people you'd like to see shot so I can actually answer?

Does my non-answer tell you anything?

No, it only reinforces how absurd the people voting to give you the gun are.

Well that's a contradiction, if you are town you should try be less defensive btw

If you are scum, carry on like this and I will hopefully shoot you tonight

Duskfall looks like a civilian.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:09 pm The two leading wagons are two people who do not play on this site regularly.

I won't hero shoot even if I want to because that is bad play, I am the best vote for gun

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:10 pm Duskfall looks like a civilian.

I don't disagree. My point is he isn't very good at it, as it applies to this game and the optimal use of the gun by the town.

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:11 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:10 pm Duskfall looks like a civilian.

I don't disagree. My point is he isn't very good at it, as it applies to this game and the optimal use of the gun by the town.

What is the optimal firearm strategy?

Optimal strategy is to give it to someone who is town so you have an actual chance of hitting scum

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:12 pm

boo wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:11 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:10 pm Duskfall looks like a civilian.

I don't disagree. My point is he isn't very good at it, as it applies to this game and the optimal use of the gun by the town.

What is the optimal firearm strategy?

The person who gets it doesn't particularly matter (today. a civ is likely to get shot regardless of whether town or mafia hold the gun), outside of being someone who can be trusted to use thread consensus on a handful of names and choose from that sub-group.

I want your 3-5 to answer whether I'd trust you with the gun, because I want thread consensus on 3-5 people and you're around and building that is more important then who specifically gets it. I trust you, regardless of alignment, to go choose from the consensus, so I'd be fine with you having the gun. I think Duskfall getting the gun is absurd, because I think he's made it pretty blatantly obvious he can't be trusted to listen to the thread at large, only people who fit inside his box. He wants to get the gun and also surround himself with yes-men in how he carries out using it. And while I can see him as town, that's also a great way, if he gets the gun, for him to wind up shooting me (or some other town he goes off and chooses) and then also being mis-shot for carrying out the mis-shot down the line, when the group runs out of leads and inevitably turns on him.