The Syndicate

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:46 pm**

I don't like how quiet Made has been and I'm suspicious that he's still alive tbqh. Usually he's dead by now and bad. Maybe that should be a relief, I dunno. I'd like to hear more from him in the coming days.

bea I don't know what to think. There's been a few things that make me wonder but I feel like I'm seeing her civ game.

As for FZ, catching up I felt sincerity responding to Epi, but she completely lost me after the initial long retort. I disagree it's easier to build cases against civs and I'm also having trouble believing her. Notably, after she went from defending herself to admitting she's been contradicting herself and saying civs are allowed to do so. Isn't that defeating the point of mafia? What else can we lynch people for if not the things they say?

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:51 pm**

FZ. wrote:
Boomslang wrote:
FZ. wrote:
thellama73 wrote:I'm voting for FZ,because I want DH to have a win-win scenario.
Nice that you can justify your actions which such a morally flawed strategy
Ok, either you or llama need to start using sarcastic orange...

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:52 pm**

zeek wrote:I don't like how quiet Made has been and I'm suspicious that he's still alive tbqh. Usually he's dead by now and bad. Maybe that should be a relief, I dunno. I'd like to hear more from him in the coming days.

bea I don't know what to think. There's been a few things that make me wonder but I feel like I'm seeing her civ game.

As for FZ, catching up I felt sincerity responding to Epi, but she completely lost me after the initial long retort. I disagree it's easier to build cases against civs and I'm also having trouble believing her. Notably, after she went from defending herself to admitting she's been contradicting herself and saying civs are allowed to do so. Isn't that defeating the point of mafia? What else can we lynch people for if not the things they say?

Yeah, I think you might be right. Made doesn't appear dead to me either.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:54 pm**

zeek wrote:I don't like how quiet Made has been and I'm suspicious that he's still alive tbqh. Usually he's dead by now and bad. Maybe that should be a relief, I dunno. I'd like to hear more from him in the coming days.

bea I don't know what to think. There's been a few things that make me wonder but I feel like I'm seeing her civ game.

As for FZ, catching up I felt sincerity responding to Epi, but she completely lost me after the initial long retort. I disagree it's easier to build cases against civs and I'm also having trouble believing her. Notably, after she went from defending herself to admitting she's been contradicting herself and saying civs are allowed to do so. Isn't that defeating the point of mafia? What else can we lynch people for if not the things they say?

In that first post, I said that contradictions are fine by me. I even defended llama when Epi made a case on his contradictions (or was it Boo who made it. I can't remember). Heck, I'm going to find that post. Because if we're going to vote based on contradictions, there's going to be a long line.

Wait for it

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:57 pm**

FZ. wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
FZ. wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
FZ. wrote:
juliets wrote:What do you guys think about FZ.'s defense? Maybe I'm just naive but it seemed to make sense to me and she seemed genuine. I was all convinced she was bad when I read the case without her response.
That's because building cases on civvies is a lot easier than building cases on baddies. It's the simple truth. I've seen it happen over and over again.
In the context of this game, this statement is demonstrably false. I don't see why it's any easier to build a case on a civilian than it is to build a case on a bad guy.

I voted.
Good for you

It's easier because in any game, civvies watch what they say significantly less than baddies, so they say things that can later be interpreted however you want it to go. That's why even if someone says things that are "contradictory" or things that are suspicious, I find those people most of the times a lot less suspicious than those who allegedly do all the right things to be considered a civ
If that's true in any game, then why not just build cases on the people doing all the right things?

Simple.

FZ. wrote:BWT, on the other hand, has just made a claasic baddie move, by voting for the most obvious choice, one that has no consequences because he never encouraged anyone to follow, nor is he here to debate it. He gave Russ a bate he knew Russ had to take, and Russ "took" it because he had no choice, making it easy for BWT to vote him.
Huh. So you're suspicious of people doing all the right things AND suspicious of people making the obvious "classic baddie moves."
It's nice that you enjoy reading me so much. Glad to see I'm such an inspiration :P
But this is totally different. Notice that when I thought it was a classic baddie move, I actually said what he did that was flawed. What are you doing? Bringing up my contradictions. Who said contradictions mean baddie. Wasn't it in this game that someone, I believe you, just showed how llama isn't playing the way he said he believed should be played? Seems like you are very good at finding people's contradictions. While I'm sure contradictions are not an automatic sign of being bad, I'm not sure any more what this means about your actions, Epi

llama contradicts himself often. He is eccentric. You are not.

Seriously, let me ask you this: What *could* you have done that I could find suspicious and call you out for? Apparently it isn't leading a bandwagon on a non-bad guy. It isn't defending a bad guy. It isn't you considering non-Kira Yotsuba a good lynch. It isn't you contradicting yourself. It isn't the similarities of how you play a Mafia role to how you are playing now. It isn't your lack of hunting in the early phases. It isn't the fact that you oversimplified my case against you to just highlighting contradictions. Am I supposed to give you a pass for all these things because a civilian could have done them all?

Addendum: What zeek said.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:04 pm**

Changing the topic a bit, but rereading Made, I'm starting to feel that the case is very worthwhile. Much like with Snowman, there's been long periods of silence broken by jokey image posts. He distrusted L's post on Elo for no good reasons, and Elo flipped bad. Felt like the TH lynch was premature, and the lynch result suggests Shinigami or other badness. Then there was that weird post that considered killing the detectives...

Made wrote:
ok, This is going to ruffle a lot of feathers.....

What if we try to kill all the Kiras, then kill all the detectives? This way, the Detectives win, then most of the Kira supporters win.

So I may throw my vote that way in a bit.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:11 pm**

Epignosis wrote:
FZ. wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
FZ. wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
FZ. wrote:
juliets wrote:What do you guys think about FZ.'s defense? Maybe I'm just naive but it seemed to make sense to me and she seemed genuine. I was all convinced she was bad when I read the case without her response.
That's because building cases on civvies is a lot easier than building cases on baddies. It's the simple truth. I've seen it happen over and over again.
In the context of this game, this statement is demonstrably false. I don't see why it's any easier to build a case on a civilian than it is to build a case on a bad guy.

I voted.
Good for you

It's easier because in any game, civvies watch what they say significantly less than baddies, so they say things that can later be interpreted however you want it to go. That's why even if someone says things that are "contradictory" or things that are suspicious, I find those people most of the times a lot less suspicious than those who allegedly do all the right things to be considered a civ
If that's true in any game, then why not just build cases on the people doing all the right things?

Simple.

FZ. wrote:BWT, on the other hand, has just made a claasic baddie move, by voting for the most obvious choice, one that has no consequences because he never encouraged anyone to follow, nor is he here to debate it. He gave Russ a bate he knew Russ had to take, and Russ "took" it because he had no choice, making it easy for BWT to vote him.
Huh. So you're suspicious of people doing all the right things AND suspicious of people making the obvious "classic baddie moves."
It's nice that you enjoy reading me so much. Glad to see I'm such an inspiration :P
But this is totally different. Notice that when I thought it was a classic baddie move, I actually said what he did that was flawed. What are you doing? Bringing up my contradictions. Who said contradictions mean baddie. Wasn't it in this game that someone, I believe you, just showed how llama isn't playing the way he said he believed should be played? Seems like you are very good at finding people's contradictions. While I'm sure contradictions are not an automatic sign of being bad, I'm not sure any more what this means about your actions, Epi
llama contradicts himself often. He is eccentric. You are not.

Seriously, let me ask you this: What *could* you have done that I could find suspicious and call you out for? Apparently it isn't leading a bandwagon on a non-bad guy. It isn't defending a bad guy. It isn't you considering non-Kira Yotsuba a good lynch. It isn't you contradicting yourself. It isn't the similarities of how you play a Mafia role to how you are playing now. It isn't your lack of hunting in the early phases. It isn't the fact that you oversimplified my case against you to just highlighting contradictions. Am I supposed to give you a pass for all these things because a civilian could have done them all?

Addendum: What zeek said.

Honestly, I don't know what to tell you. If you think I'm bad, just go for it. I have no idea how to defend myself more than I have. I'm trying to show you you're wrong. And for what it's worth, I didn't say the yotsuba lynch was a good one. I said it was better than a detective, but that I wish I could say it was a good lynch. Like I said, you've already decided, and nothing I say will change that. As for leading a bandwagon on a non-bad guy, yeah, I do that as a baddie too. Happy? But when you say that playing a mafia role is like how I'm playing now, I want you to tell me how it is different than how I play a civ role. Do I not contradict myself? Do I not defend people strongly? Do I not go after others equally strongly? When you decide it's like I play a baddie, be sure it's not what I do when a civvie as well
The only consolation that I get from this, is that when I am a baddie for real one day, it seems it's going to be harder to read me. Interestingly, I've never been lynched as a civ on K-site, while here, this might be my third time.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:13 pm**

"The best defense is a good offense." - thellama73

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:14 pm**

thellama73 wrote:"The best defense is a good offense." - thellama73

Your point?

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:18 pm**

FZ's last defense reads to me like a baddie who thinks she has played a perfect game, and that the reasons we have for voting her are bad ones. I've been in that position, and it is the most frustrating thing ever. When you're bad, there's nothing worse than the civilians being right about you for the wrong reasons. I recognize myself in FZ's last post, and it makes me feel better about my vote.

linki: My point is that it's impossible to talk people out of voting for you by saying "I'm not bad." Ricochet gets mad at me for this advice, but it's true. The best way to survive a lynch is to find someone more suspicious than you and build a better case on them. Denials convince no one. Being a good baddie hunter is the best way to avoid suspicion.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:30 pm**

What is interesting to me is the shift in attention away from Made.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:32 pm**

thellama73 wrote:FZ's last defense reads to me like a baddie who thinks she has played a perfect game, and that the reasons we have for voting her are bad ones. I've been in that position, and it is the most frustrating thing ever. When you're bad, there's nothing worse than the civilians being right about you for the wrong reasons. I recognize myself in FZ's last post, and it makes me feel better about my vote.

linki: My point is that it's impossible to talk people out of voting for you by saying "I'm not bad." Ricochet gets mad at me for this advice, but it's true. The best way to survive a lynch is to find someone more suspicious than you and build a better case on them. Denials convince no one. Being a good baddie hunter is the best way to avoid suspicion.

This post could have come out of my mouth, I swear. I've said it to others. The whole part about frustration, the part about focusing on pursuing other players to look better. It's humbling though, because I get to see it from the other side. The side that knows they are civvies and know that no matter how "great" the case the others are building, it's wrong.
I wish I could build a case on someone else now, and you're not going to believe me that if I were a baddie, I'd probably try harder, but I'm tired, and I'm done. This has been one frustrating day for me. I don't care any more. All I can say is that I've tried to avoid this lynch for the sake of the good. I guess if I'm lynched, and you don't go the obvious way, you'll understand why

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:35 pm**

MM, can you tell me again, why you voted for Epi? I guess that with Bea's threats, voting for her is risky, so before I vote, I want to make sure

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:39 pm**

Boomslang wrote:
bea wrote:What there are br - there are 2 sets of potential civ bts. I could be near and pulled him into chat and found his role out. It could be any of those scenarios that make llama l - I could be l and
investigated myself to see how people would react.

Or it could be the.truth. - I just strongly think llama is a civ. I've had good feels about him and he's done nothing to
makeline me think he is bad.
Hmm... If you were L, don't you think investigating yourself would be a waste of time? Or even a danger, especially as the previous L message was used to lead a successful lynch on a Kira supporter. I find that hypothetical a little too glib.

There's also been a couple places where you've expressed almost a resigned attitude toward being lynched. If you're not willing to defend your own civness while alive, why should anyone else?

The bolded part was the important bit from my post boom. The rest was just scenarios I came up with off the top of my head to prove the point that more could be going on than what Epi was presenting at the time. Glib or not, I've seen weirder things happen in mafia games and I know you have too.

I'm not so much resigned or not wiling to defend myself. I've said my fair share about boo's "case" - It's pretty fracking weak and based on a bunch of "I am going to construct a story built on zero evidence." Second time he posts he says he's channelling his inner SVS, but SVS doesn't voice suspcion that way either. Even though she works from an emotional place, she has things said by the person she distrusts that she can point to and say "This doesn't sound honest or genuine. This does not sound how I know you to play." Now suddenly according to him, I'm Light and I passed my Death Note and can't be killed. Again - based on nothing but his imagination.

I've asked boo - and anyone else can answer should they be inclined - what is "my civie game" that you are not seeing? Cuz my civ game looks the same as I'm playing now from where I'm standing.

As for L's message - 7% is not exactly the ZOMG!!! LYNCH HER RIGHT AWAY! message that the one about eloh was. Nothing has been confirmed that L uses a low number *in this game* for high suspects. In fact, he used the same number for Aces.

It's not that I've resigned to being lynched boom. It's that I have said all I have to say about it. I'm not going to say it 10,000 times. I'm not going to yell about it. I got emo once in this game and I feel aweful about it and have no intention of getting worked up about it.

Why you should not lynch me isn't based on how well I do or do not defend. You shouldn't lynch me because despite boo's onion, I am a civ. I will die. If I defend or not - if I do it well or not - doesn't really matter. I'm stll a civ. I will still die and the lynch will still not yeild a kira.

If you don't believe me, vote me. If you do believe me don't vote me. It's really that simple.

Is there something floating around that I have not addressed that I'm missing?

linki - I have not threatened anything fz. I have told the truth and nothing but the truth.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:40 pm**

FZ. wrote:MM, can you tell me again, why you voted for Epi? I guess that with Bea's threats, voting for her is risky, so before I vote, I want to make sure

I tried asking MM at the very start of the Day who he would be focusing on, but he ignored the question, made some posts that weren't relevant to his suspicions, then voted Epi (after specifically NOT voting Epi on Day 5). All this after saying he thought Kira was lying low and not following through on THOSE suspicions either. So... yeah. Not sure how much you're gonna get out of him here. Hope you have better luck than I did!

I think you should look into the case on Made if you want to give yourself the best chance at survival today.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:45 pm**

Boomslang wrote:Changing the topic a bit, but rereading Made, I'm starting to feel that the case is very worthwhile. Much like with Snowman, there's been long periods of silence broken by jokey image posts. He distrusted L's post on Elo for no good reasons, and Elo flipped bad. Felt like the TH lynch was premature, and the lynch result suggests Shinigami or other badness. Then there was that weird post that considered killing the detectives...

Made wrote:
ok, This is going to ruffle a lot of feathers.....

What if we try to kill all the Kiras, then kill all the detectives? This way, the Detectives win, then most of the Kira supporters win.
So I may throw my vote that way in a bit.

These are the things (except the distrust of L's post because it hadn't happened yet) that disturbed me about Made when I voted him before. Now there is the part about him distrusting L's message about Elo. I'm still leaning to a vote in his direction but I'll wait a little while in case something happens. I'm just not feeling the passion around the FZ. vote.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:46 pm**

bea wrote:You shouldn't lynch me because despite boo's onion, I am a civ.

You have to admit though that there are a lot of layers to it.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:49 pm**

It is a well developed falsehood.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:49 pm**

Turnip Head wrote:
FZ. wrote:MM, can you tell me again, why you voted for Epi? I guess that with Bea's threats, voting for her is risky, so before I vote, I want to make sure
I tried asking MM at the very start of the Day who he would be focusing on, but he ignored the question, made some posts that weren't relevant to his suspicions, then voted Epi (after specifically NOT voting Epi on Day 5). All this after saying he thought Kira was lying low and not following through on THOSE suspicions either. So... yeah. Not sure how much you're gonna get out of him here. Hope you have better luck than I did!

I think you should look into the case on Made if you want to give yourself the best chance at survival today.

Thanks, yeah, I remember.
I relatively know the case on Made. I don't know how I feel about it. I'm not very familiar with his game, and I think he can go either way. I get why what he said could be very suspicious, but I can also see someone who's not a kira say something of that sort as a strategy to keep everyone winning. He said he knew he was going to catch flack for it, and he said it anyway, so he wasn't being very careful. That said, you and I guess others have said he's more involved when he's a civ. Like I said, and Epi showed, when I'm a baddie, I try to be as involved as I am when a civvie, and I try to push my theories just as much, so I expect others to do the same. I've learnt that sometimes I expect too much. So yeah, he can be a baddie, and by the way it looks now, that's where my vote will go.

That said, I think Russ' vote for me was very opportunistic after spending most of the game feeling relatively good about me. So there's an option there too. Though I don't think it's going to be followed

linki: Bea, do you still feel Boo is bad?

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:52 pm**

Epignosis wrote:
bea wrote:You shouldn't lynch me because despite boo's onion, I am a civ.
You have to admit though that there are a lot of layers to it.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:54 pm**

bea wrote:It is a well developed falsehood.

Really? Looked more like a Vidalia to me.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:54 pm**

Turnip Head wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
bea wrote:You shouldn't lynch me because despite boo's onion, I am a civ.
You have to admit though that there are a lot of layers to it.

I missed the onion. Thanks for the laugh

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:56 pm**

He made up an entire story about me based on nothing that has actually happened in the thread. His only other suspect is someone whom I believe is civ. So, yea- I don't have the greatest feels about him.

linki - OH. MY. GOD. I seriously just now caught that epi was teasing me about the typo of onion for opinion. I'm so amazingly lame sometimes. *heddesk*

linki again - yes - I know - I'm an idiot. I need to enlarge this screen. I swear the type gets smaller every day. It's hell to get old kids....

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:05 pm**

bea wrote:He made up an entire story about me based on nothing that has actually happened in the thread. His only other suspect is someone whom I believe is civ. So, yea- I don't have the greatest feels about him.

linki - OH. MY. GOD. I seriously just now caught that epi was teasing me about the typo of onion for opinion. I'm so amazingly lame sometimes. *heddesk*

linki again - yes - I know - I'm an idiot. I need to enlarge this screen. I swear the type gets smaller every day. It's hell to get old kids....

Okay, your answers have eased my mind a bit. What do you think about Russ?

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:08 pm**

FZ. wrote:
In that first post, I said that contradictions are fine by me. I even defended llama when Epi made a case on his contradictions (or was it Boo who made it. I can't remember). Heck, I'm going to find that post. Because if we're going to vote based on contradictions, there's going to be a long line.

Wait for it

Sorry, I was skimming but thats not the impression I was getting. Anyway, you can say there's a long line but clearly not as glaring as the contradictions raised. Saying stuff like civs can be contradictory doesn't feel genuine. I don't agree that it's fine for them to be but even if it was, it doesn't make you a civ.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Yeah, I think you might be right. Made doesn't appear dead to me either.

I'm suspicious of him because he's alive, then :P He's made some strange statements as well, like the one Boom quoted, which strikes me as the experimental baddie Made typically is.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:11 pm**

The fact FZ isn't trying to push another candidate here is making me reconsider. I'd try to discredit other potential lynchees in her position, and I'd definitely expect it from baddie in that situation. So, I guess I could go for Made.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:14 pm**

zeek wrote:I'm suspicious of him because he's alive, then :P

But you said that Made is usually dead by now if he's bad. So where could a civvie Made possibly fall on this dead-or-alive spectrum in your mind? Seems like a bit of a contradiction, doesn't it?

Put me down on record saying civs will be inconsistent and contradictory. Not that I approve of it or that they SHOULD be, but that it happens as a nature of not being as careful with your words when you're a civ.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:15 pm**

[quote="zeek"

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Yeah, I think you might be right. Made doesn't appear dead to me either.

I'm suspicious of him because he's alive, then :P He's made some strange statements as well, like the one Boom quoted, which strikes me as the experimental baddie Made typically is.[/quote]Hello friends! replying in reverse order, then normal people order then going to case or something. Starting with Epis case on FZ? k lets go.

Epignosis wrote: In summary, FZ. invites us to accept comparing her playing here with her playing elsewhere. I think she said that because she didn't actually believe anybody would do it, and I further believe the invitation was a ruse to make us think she has a "civilian game" and a "baddie game," when in fact she implied that she doesn't:

FZ. wrote:I'm a complicated person. I don't always do the exact same thing.

I agree with your read, but I think the motive you have pinned her down for is more specific/complex than need be.

I doubt that she expected that no one would look at her game, instead, it's possible, assuming FZ baddie, that she just thought she was playing this baddie game differently than she plays her typical one, but you were able to find parallels regardless.

Not enough on it's own for my vote, but a strong direction to look in, will continue to read further into FZ.
link

zeek wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Yeah, I think you might be right. Made doesn't appear dead to me either.
I'm suspicious of him because he's alive, then :P He's made some strange statements as well, like the one Boom quoted, which strikes me as the experimental baddie Made typically is.

the fuck you talking about, i'm a terrible baddie, regardless strange statement are fun regardless of alignment.
(oh, btw people, i'm here so if you want to point out things I should prioritize my responses to, be my guest!)

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:16 pm**

ebwop, ignore everything before "hello friends"

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:17 pm**

FZ. wrote:
bea wrote:He made up an entire story about me based on nothing that has actually happened in the thread. His only other suspect is someone whom I believe is civ. So, yea- I don't have the greatest feels about him.

linki - OH. MY. GOD. I seriously just now caught that epi was teasing me about the typo of onion for opinion. I'm so amazingly lame sometimes. *heddesk*

linki again - yes - I know - I'm an idiot. I need to enlarge this screen. I swear the type gets smaller every day. It's hell to get old kids....
Okay, your answers have eased my mind a bit. What do you think about Russ?

What do *you* think about Russ?

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:18 pm**

Turnip Head wrote:
zeek wrote:I'm suspicious of him because he's alive, then :P
But you said that Made is usually dead by now if he's bad. So where could a civvie Made possibly fall on this dead-or-alive spectrum in your mind? Seems like a bit of a contradiction, doesn't it?

Put me down on record saying civs will be inconsistent and contradictory. Not that I approve of it or that they SHOULD be, but that it happens as a nature of not being as careful with your words when you're a civ.

With that being said wouldn't a baddie Made know all this and try to lay low and be as blendy as Made has been?

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:21 pm**

zeek wrote:
FZ. wrote:
In that first post, I said that contradictions are fine by me. I even defended llama when Epi made a case on his contradictions (or was it Boo who made it. I can't remember). Heck, I'm going to find that post. Because if we're going to vote based on contradictions, there's going to be a long line.

Wait for it
Sorry, I was skimming but thats not the impression I was getting. Anyway, you can say there's a long line but clearly not as glaring as the contradictions raised. Saying stuff like civs can be contradictory doesn't feel genuine. I don't agree that it's fine for them to be but even if it was, it doesn't make you a civ.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Yeah, I think you might be right. Made doesn't appear dead to me either.
I'm suspicious of him because he's alive, then :P He's made some strange statements as well, like the one Boom quoted, which strikes me as the experimental baddie Made typically is.

Nothing makes me a civ. What makes you a civ? Have you done something that is supposed to tell us you are? Because I haven't seen it yet. Basically, no matter how much people say otherwise, it all boils down to gut feelings. We try our best to "build a case", but as been the case with BWT (and I still think what he did with Russ seemed like something a civ wouldn't do, but I guess I am wrong), cases are only sometimes true. Still, it's all we've got. I think no matter what EPi and llama are, Epi specifically, built a case on me the best way possible. Too bad it's wrong, but I can't fault him. He's playing the game.

linki: Hi Made. Looks like it's going to be between you and me. Are you good?

linki: DH, I already said I think Russ' vote for me was opportunistic after he felt good about me. I doubt he actually followed every link Epi gave, and every accusation he pointed out, so going from seemingly trusting me, to voting me does not strike me as a civ behaviour

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:25 pm**

I could be wrong, but I can't think of a single time I voted for anyone because of a gut feeling.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:27 pm**

Turnip Head wrote:
zeek wrote:I'm suspicious of him because he's alive, then :P
But you said that Made is usually dead by now if he's bad. So where could a civvie Made possibly fall on this dead-or-alive spectrum in your mind? Seems like a bit of a contradiction, doesn't it?

Put me down on record saying civs will be inconsistent and contradictory. Not that I approve of it or that they SHOULD be, but that it happens as a nature of not being as careful with your words when you're a civ.

i also said this:

zeek wrote:I don't like how quiet Made has been and I'm suspicious that he's still alive tbqh. Usually he's dead by now and bad. Maybe that should be a relief, I dunno. I'd like to hear more from him in the coming days.

So no contradiction. Cute though. I guess I have a natural suspicion of him, as he is always bad, but on the off chance I did ever play with civvie Made I do think the baddies might leave him alone. He's always eventually lynched because he changes up his game. But then, he changes it up because he's always bad! So I have no idea. He says odd things sometimes and I don't know whether my natural suspicion of him interferes with a clear read.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:30 pm**

Bass_the_Clever wrote:so is that what a case is suppose to look like. I feel like I should be taking notes because I suck at building cases.

ok, so skimming on my cellphone has pretty much been my life every free moment as of recent. I've been very busy recently(someone said i didn't complain enough about so there's your bone, friend), so i haven't been able to respond as much as i'd like, but when skimming i caught this

having read the theory, i'd say it was a pretty good one, that made solid points, but the post bass made above read more to me like a baddie trying to gain favor with another player. "buddying" behavior. having not 100% caught up yet, will read more into bass with this in mind.

linki

DharmaHelper wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:
zeek wrote:I'm suspicious of him because he's alive, then :P
But you said that Made is usually dead by now if he's bad. So where could a civvie Made possibly fall on this dead-or-alive spectrum in your mind? Seems like a bit of a contradiction, doesn't it?

Put me down on record saying civs will be inconsistent and contradictory. Not that I approve of it or that they SHOULD be, but that it happens as a nature of not being as careful with your words when you're a civ.
With that being said wouldn't a baddie Made know all this and try to lay low and be as blendy as Made has been?

This could mean nothing, but i'll say it anyways, baddie made at this point in the game would be headbutting someone really had at this point in an effort to appear to be contributing to the game some how, instead of just commenting on thing as they appear.

FZ. wrote: linki: Hi Made. Looks like it's going to be between you and me. Are you good?

I'm alright thanks for asking! Anyways, it's not between me and you just yet. If we both decided to put our votes on Russ, we could probably get him lynched without much effort, i mean what 3-2 right now? it's early enough to make a 3rd option.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:32 pm**

Made is so bad.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:33 pm**

FZ. wrote:Nothing makes me a civ. What makes you a civ? Have you done something that is supposed to tell us you are? Because I haven't seen it yet. Basically, no matter how much people say otherwise, it all boils down to gut feelings. We try our best to "build a case", but as been the case with BWT (and I still think what he did with Russ seemed like something a civ wouldn't do, but I guess I am wrong), cases are only sometimes true. Still, it's all we've got. I think no matter what EPi and llama are, Epi specifically, built a case on me the best way possible. Too bad it's wrong, but I can't fault him. He's playing the game.

Really?! I just comment on how you aren't slandering other potential lynchees and you go and say that? Listen, my role makes me civ. You're not convincing me yours does you. People vote on gut all the time but reads what I prefer to use. The things you're saying and how you're saying them are not convincing me you're civ. That's my read. The things you weren't saying, like Made and bea are bad, were. But, jeez, don't throw things back in people's faces when they reconsider.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:33 pm**

Made wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:With that being said wouldn't a baddie Made know all this and try to lay low and be as blendy as Made has been?
This could mean nothing, but i'll say it anyways, baddie made at this point in the game would be headbutting someone really had at this point in an effort to appear to be contributing to the game some how, instead of just commenting on thing as they appear.

I've never seen you play this ^^ way as a baddie, Made.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:36 pm**

Made wrote:I'm alright thanks for asking! Anyways, it's not between me and you just yet. If we both decided to put our votes on Russ, we could probably get him lynched without much effort, i mean what 3-2 right now? it's early enough to make a 3rd option.

You never answered FZ's question. Are you good?

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:37 pm**

Epignosis wrote:I could be wrong, but I can't think of a single time I voted for anyone because of a gut feeling.

You're a man. You just like to consider yourself as a going with facts and logic. :P Maybe you are and that's why you're messing up right now, because you think all the reasons you brought up on me are real evidence for baddie tells when in fact, they are not

linki: Made, that's exactly what I said in terms of what I would expect a baddie to do.
And yeah, it's still 3-2, but all the talk has been on you and me.

linki: Sorry Zeek, I didn't mean to offend you or throw things back at you. I'm frustrated, and I'm trying to show you that "reads" are basically gut, not to throw suspicion at you. For example, my gut tells me that a baddie, especially one that is often engaged in the game and expected to be, would try harder to appear like that when a civvie too, so I can't just go and vote Made, even if people read him as a posting something that on surface level appears scummy. In that sense, I asked what have you done that makes you a civ.

Damn those linkis: TH, you're saying he's very different when bad and when good?

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:38 pm**

I find Made to be way less confrontational when he's a baddie compared to his civ style, and he's saying that the opposite is true.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:43 pm**

Turnip Head wrote:I find Made to be way less confrontational when he's a baddie compared to his civ style, and he's saying that the opposite is true.

I think he's saying he would find someone to suspect just for the sake of suspecting and looking like he's doing a lot more than he is now. Or maybe I read it wrong

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:45 pm**

bea wrote:I have to start dinner soon. I'm voting made, he feels to me like he's trying to stay under the radar.

Gonna give a little more context on why i think this post is bullshit
1. She has yet to elaborate further on why she thinks i'm bad.
2. far more importantly, I think she (and ninjibloop) reads me better than any other player on the site; Not because she knows when i'm bad or good, because she understand my thought process, even when i'm intentionally being spazzy. The fact she just said "feels like he's trying to stay under the radar" makes me think she just wanted me dead because i thought the argument Boo made had merit to it.

linki

Turnip Head wrote:
Made wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:With that being said wouldn't a baddie Made know all this and try to lay low and be as blendy as Made has been?
This could mean nothing, but i'll say it anyways, baddie made at this point in the game would be headbutting someone really had at this point in an effort to appear to be contributing to the game some how, instead of just commenting on thing as they appear.
I've never seen you play this ^^ way as a baddie, Made.

GOC? that's how i didn't die immediately when everyone was on my case.I mean, i only have 3 baddie games under my belt, so i don't have a typical baddie just yet, but i feel like that's what i feel the logical thing to do at this point in baddie mode, act busy when people think you're being shifty so they get off your back

oh, and Zeek, Yes.

linki- Fz's got it.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:45 pm**

When has Made been civ?

FZ. wrote:linki: Sorry Zeek, I didn't mean to offend you or throw things back at you. I'm frustrated, and I'm trying to show you that "reads" are basically gut, not to throw suspicion at you. For example, my gut tells me that a baddie, especially one that is often engaged in the game and expected to be, would try harder to appear like that when a civvie too, so I can't just go and vote Made, even if people read him as a posting something that on surface level appears scummy. In that sense, I asked what have you done that makes you a civ.

I don't think gut votes are the same as read votes. Gut votes are pretty intangible and to say they're the same devalues reading people imo. I play a pretty open game and I try to respond to every post that questions or has a question for me, that way people can get a decent read on me and try to see that I'm good. I'm pretty much the Anti-Made, I've had one and a half bad roles ever. That's what I do to show I'm civ

A lot fo baddies don't try very hard to appear civ. I think Made could be trying to be more under the radar this game, given he's lynched so often. Of course, this could be flawed, circular logic.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:47 pm**

FZ. wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:I find Made to be way less confrontational when he's a baddie compared to his civ style, and he's saying that the opposite is true.
I think he's saying he would find someone to suspect just for the sake of suspecting and looking like he's doing a lot more than he is now. Or maybe I read it wrong

Yeah that's what he's saying. I just don't believe him.

linki: No, you didn't die when everyone was on your case in GoC because I and others naively defended your kooky actions :P After a rough start you tried to fade into the background of the GoC game, and succeeded for quite a while. Same thing you're doing here, IMO.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:48 pm**

FZ. wrote: You're a man. You just like to consider yourself as a going with facts and logic. :P Maybe you are and that's why you're messing up right now, because you think all the reasons you brought up on me are real evidence for baddie tells when in fact, they are not

Sexist.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:50 pm**

thellama73 wrote:
FZ. wrote: You're a man. You just like to consider yourself as a going with facts and logic. :P Maybe you are and that's why you're messing up right now, because you think all the reasons you brought up on me are real evidence for baddie tells when in fact, they are not
Sexist.

All women spent way too much time being sexist, and not enough on housework

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:54 pm**

zeek wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
FZ. wrote: You're a man. You just like to consider yourself as a going with facts and logic. :P Maybe you are and that's why you're messing up right now, because you think all the reasons you brought up on me are real evidence for baddie tells when in fact, they are not
Sexist.
All women spent way too much time being sexist, and not enough on housework

You shouldn't use hyperbole like that, because it's the worst thing in the world.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:57 pm**

zeek wrote:When has Made been civ?

FZ. wrote:linki: Sorry Zeek, I didn't mean to offend you or throw things back at you. I'm frustrated, and I'm trying to show you that "reads" are basically gut, not to throw suspicion at you. For example, my gut tells me that a baddie, especially one that is often engaged in the game and expected to be, would try harder to appear like that when a civvie too, so I can't just go and vote Made, even if people read him as a posting something that on surface level appears scummy. In that sense, I asked what have you done that makes you a civ.
I don't think gut votes are the same as read votes. Gut votes are pretty intangible and to say they're the same devalues reading people imo. I play a pretty open game and I try to respond to every post that questions or has a question for me, that way people can get a decent read on me and try to see that I'm good. I'm pretty much the Anti-Made, I've had one and a half bad roles ever. That's what I do to show I'm civ

A lot fo baddies don't try very hard to appear civ. I think Made could be trying to be more under the radar this game, given he's lynched so often. Of course, this could be flawed, circular logic.

I build cases, you can see it by TH's list :P so no need to tell me about reads. That said, I think that after I build a case, when I back and forth with that person, I can sometimes back off just because in my gut, I feel that person is being genuine, no matter how his actions seemed suspicious before. I think most of us do it to some extent. Maybe I do it more than others, I don't know.
And I think I'm open and let people see me for what I am...and then it appears I get accused for it. I admitted the first day (after not voting), that I would have voted for someone, but had no idea who I would have voted for. People thought that was a baddie reaction, but it was a sincere one. Do you think I can't just find something on someone and then say that's the person I would vote for? I can, and it's easy. When I'm a civ, I struggle more because I don't want to make mistakes that will hurt the civvies.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:59 pm**

Turnip Head wrote:
FZ. wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:I find Made to be way less confrontational when he's a baddie compared to his civ style, and he's saying that the opposite is true.
I think he's saying he would find someone to suspect just for the sake of suspecting and looking like he's doing a lot more than he is now. Or maybe I read it wrong
Yeah that's what he's saying. I just don't believe him.

linki: No, you didn't die when everyone was on your case in GoC because I and others naively defended your kooky actions :P After a rough start you tried to fade into the background of the GoC game, and succeeded for quite a while. Same thing you're doing here, IMO.

You know him better than me. Maybe I'm wrong to think that's what he'd do. Beats me

thellama73 wrote:
FZ. wrote: You're a man. You just like to consider yourself as a going with facts and logic. :P Maybe you are and that's why you're messing up right now, because you think all the reasons you brought up on me are real evidence for baddie tells when in fact, they are not
Sexist.

Better?

The Syndicate

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