The Syndicate

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Silverwolf wrote:@Golden-constant excuses is because, besides the content I didn't like that I pointed out, he only was telling us his schedule and why he couldn't be here, I never doubted his RL, let me give you an example:

In a MS game offsite (ika-this is 188), there was a player named Ozgin. He was scum in that game. His first few posts were exactly like MP's-giving out his exact schedule of when he could post or not and continuing to do that. So this is why I am wary of it.

I was trying to get him to stop taking the time to do that, but to take the time to post content, when he could come back and do so.

If this doesn't make sense to you, I don't know what to do then.

I've been taking the time to post content whenever I'm here for longer than 2 seconds, so I'm not sure what you're going on about. I knew I would be incredibly busy yesterday; I warned you all of it. It's something I do in every game regardless of alignment. If you don't take my word on that, then fine, but one comparison to some other player in some other specific circumstance does not mean I'm the same alignment.

Silverwolf wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Silverwolf wrote:@Golden-constant excuses is because, besides the content I didn't like that I pointed out, he only was telling us his schedule and why he couldn't be here, I never doubted his RL, let me give you an example:

In a MS game offsite (ika-this is 188), there was a player named Ozgin. He was scum in that game. His first few posts were exactly like MP's-giving out his exact schedule of when he could post or not and continuing to do that. So this is why I am wary of it.

I was trying to get him to stop taking the time to do that, but to take the time to post content, when he could come back and do so.

If this doesn't make sense to you, I don't know what to do then.

I've been taking the time to post content whenever I'm here for longer than 2 seconds, so I'm not sure what you're going on about. I knew I would be incredibly busy yesterday; I warned you all of it. It's something I do in every game regardless of alignment. If you don't take my word on that, then fine, but one comparison to some other player in some other specific circumstance does not mean I'm the same alignment.

This was in response to Golden's questioning of my initial vote on you which he seems fixated on. That's why I gave him this example. Yes, you've made a lot more content since then. I don't like your ika suspicions. I do like some of the rest of your stuff which I'm gonna re-read and re-evaluate when I have some time.

OVERALL, we need 9 votes. I'm hoping as town, we can find them today on someone. We are too divided it seems and I'd like to get a consensus before day ends. I do realize we have time but not a much as you'd think.

Silverwolf wrote: VOTE INAWORDYES

This is a low content poster I'm willing to wagon. I don't like his RVS Soneji vote and the fact he hasn't posted much of substance or done any game solving or any reads or anything really, despite being here earlier.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Spoiler: show

Inawordyes wrote:Since I'm playing to my standard MMMeta, might as well continue the RVS! D1 is the time to hear from everyone, so since Soneji is the only who left who hasn't checked in yet, my vote goes with him for the moment. Heyo Soneji! How are you doing? TELL US THE NAMES OF YUR SCUMMEHS!!!

*cough* Ahem, who would you, er, "conveniently" place as your list of baddies? Yeah, that's a good question. I'll show him!]/s]

I'm pinged here by inawordyes's declaration that he is playing to his own meta. Dom caught me in Arkham Mafia for saying this same thing. It indicates the mindset of someone who is purposefully making posts with the intention of playing to an existing standard, which can be defended against with the mere declaration that it's "my meta".

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Silverwolf wrote: VOTE INAWORDYES

This is a low content poster I'm willing to wagon. I don't like his RVS Soneji vote and the fact he hasn't posted much of substance or done any game solving or any reads or anything really, despite being here earlier.

I'm willing to take a step back from ika and give him some room to breathe and contribute, and follow you here. I feel like I'm not accomplishing anything with this vote; I've discussed ika ad nauseam.

VOTE INAWORDYES

I agree with what you've said above. In addition, I made the following observation on IAWY earlier:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Spoiler: show

Inawordyes wrote:Since I'm playing to my standard MMMeta, might as well continue the RVS! D1 is the time to hear from everyone, so since Soneji is the only who left who hasn't checked in yet, my vote goes with him for the moment. Heyo Soneji! How are you doing? TELL US THE NAMES OF YUR SCUMMEHS!!!

*cough* Ahem, who would you, er, "conveniently" place as your list of baddies? Yeah, that's a good question. I'll show him!]/s]

I'm pinged here by inawordyes's declaration that he is playing to his own meta. Dom caught me in Arkham Mafia for saying this same thing. It indicates the mindset of someone who is purposefully making posts with the intention of playing to an existing standard, which can be defended against with the mere declaration that it's "my meta".

That's about all else I have on him. Hard to believe he has 10 posts. What do you (and others) think of that?

Frog wrote:Danke.

I just assumed Soneji would have been replaced out by now. Or at least by tomorrow, so I didn't want to blind lynch an empty slot.

I find it curious how A2theZebra is only on my list.

After I came up with my plan on slankers, A2theZebra began posting quite a bit on quite a lot of the same.
Mostly disagreeing with my plan :-P
I mean, if I were scum pigeonholed into being lynched, I'd probably disagree and pad my post count too I guess.

I forgot to answer your question MP regarding IAWY never being a D1 vote. IAWY is a very valuable member of the town when he rands town. Typically with IAWY's high posts, IAWY leads the town as town. It should become apparent what IAWY randed by tomorrow.

Frog wrote:+EV is +expected value. It's a term that is used to indicate either minimizing -expected value, or increasing +expected value.

Lol, and now a non-troll definition. + Expected Value is basically just another way of saying more optimal, or minimizing suboptimal components.

e.g. If you are a vigilante and there's 1 scum left in 25 people, and there are 24 TPRs, then it's -EV to shoot.
e.g. If mayor just revealed before going into the night and it's 4V's vs. 2 T's, It's +EV to heal the mayor.
e.g. D1 lynching amongst the players I suggested is +EV, while lynching amongst the top 4 posters (for example) is -EV.

Frog wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Silverwolf wrote: VOTE INAWORDYES

This is a low content poster I'm willing to wagon. I don't like his RVS Soneji vote and the fact he hasn't posted much of substance or done any game solving or any reads or anything really, despite being here earlier.

I'm willing to take a step back from ika and give him some room to breathe and contribute, and follow you here. I feel like I'm not accomplishing anything with this vote; I've discussed ika ad nauseam.

VOTE INAWORDYES

I agree with what you've said above. In addition, I made the following observation on IAWY earlier:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Spoiler: show

Inawordyes wrote:Since I'm playing to my standard MMMeta, might as well continue the RVS! D1 is the time to hear from everyone, so since Soneji is the only who left who hasn't checked in yet, my vote goes with him for the moment. Heyo Soneji! How are you doing? TELL US THE NAMES OF YUR SCUMMEHS!!!

*cough* Ahem, who would you, er, "conveniently" place as your list of baddies? Yeah, that's a good question. I'll show him!]/s]

I'm pinged here by inawordyes's declaration that he is playing to his own meta. Dom caught me in Arkham Mafia for saying this same thing. It indicates the mindset of someone who is purposefully making posts with the intention of playing to an existing standard, which can be defended against with the mere declaration that it's "my meta".

That's about all else I have on him. Hard to believe he has 10 posts. What do you (and others) think of that?

Lol. It's very hard to engage with you on anything seriously. You're either mafia reading the most obvious town members, or you're going after easy bait (e.g. Ika + Silverwolf). IAWY typically posts a shit ton and leads town. He said he's taking it easy this game. He'll resolve himself by tomorrow as either town or mafia. I don't like this vote at all, and to be honest, I'm absurdly skeptical of you.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Frog wrote:Danke.

I just assumed Soneji would have been replaced out by now. Or at least by tomorrow, so I didn't want to blind lynch an empty slot.

I find it curious how A2theZebra is only on my list.

After I came up with my plan on slankers, A2theZebra began posting quite a bit on quite a lot of the same.
Mostly disagreeing with my plan :-P
I mean, if I were scum pigeonholed into being lynched, I'd probably disagree and pad my post count too I guess.

I forgot to answer your question MP regarding IAWY never being a D1 vote. IAWY is a very valuable member of the town when he rands town. Typically with IAWY's high posts, IAWY leads the town as town. It should become apparent what IAWY randed by tomorrow.

Well, I'm not sure how quickly JJJ is going to forcibly replace someone out. I doubt he'll do so before end of Day 1. Guess we'll see.

That's fair. I would like to hear more from a2thezebra about who she feels good about and who she suspects. How about it, zebra?

Ah, yes! Thanks for answering, I forgot about that. Lol. So you're saying there's a clear difference in post volume when he rands town versus mafia?

Frog wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Frog wrote:Danke.

I just assumed Soneji would have been replaced out by now. Or at least by tomorrow, so I didn't want to blind lynch an empty slot.

I find it curious how A2theZebra is only on my list.

After I came up with my plan on slankers, A2theZebra began posting quite a bit on quite a lot of the same.
Mostly disagreeing with my plan :-P
I mean, if I were scum pigeonholed into being lynched, I'd probably disagree and pad my post count too I guess.

I forgot to answer your question MP regarding IAWY never being a D1 vote. IAWY is a very valuable member of the town when he rands town. Typically with IAWY's high posts, IAWY leads the town as town. It should become apparent what IAWY randed by tomorrow.

Well, I'm not sure how quickly JJJ is going to forcibly replace someone out. I doubt he'll do so before end of Day 1. Guess we'll see.

That's fair. I would like to hear more from a2thezebra about who she feels good about and who she suspects. How about it, zebra?

Ah, yes! Thanks for answering, I forgot about that. Lol. So you're saying there's a clear difference in post volume when he rands town versus mafia?

I want to say yes. The last C12 game I played with him he was vigi posting about 80 times a day? Normally he's at 100+ posts a day as town.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Frog wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Silverwolf wrote: VOTE INAWORDYES

This is a low content poster I'm willing to wagon. I don't like his RVS Soneji vote and the fact he hasn't posted much of substance or done any game solving or any reads or anything really, despite being here earlier.

I'm willing to take a step back from ika and give him some room to breathe and contribute, and follow you here. I feel like I'm not accomplishing anything with this vote; I've discussed ika ad nauseam.

VOTE INAWORDYES

I agree with what you've said above. In addition, I made the following observation on IAWY earlier:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Spoiler: show

Inawordyes wrote:Since I'm playing to my standard MMMeta, might as well continue the RVS! D1 is the time to hear from everyone, so since Soneji is the only who left who hasn't checked in yet, my vote goes with him for the moment. Heyo Soneji! How are you doing? TELL US THE NAMES OF YUR SCUMMEHS!!!

*cough* Ahem, who would you, er, "conveniently" place as your list of baddies? Yeah, that's a good question. I'll show him!]/s]

I'm pinged here by inawordyes's declaration that he is playing to his own meta. Dom caught me in Arkham Mafia for saying this same thing. It indicates the mindset of someone who is purposefully making posts with the intention of playing to an existing standard, which can be defended against with the mere declaration that it's "my meta".

That's about all else I have on him. Hard to believe he has 10 posts. What do you (and others) think of that?

Lol. It's very hard to engage with you on anything seriously. You're either mafia reading the most obvious town members, or you're going after easy bait (e.g. Ika + Silverwolf). IAWY typically posts a shit ton and leads town. He said he's taking it easy this game. He'll resolve himself by tomorrow as either town or mafia. I don't like this vote at all, and to be honest, I'm absurdly skeptical of you.

I don't understand. What's wrong with my observation?

Are you town reading IAWY then?

Frog wrote:Here are some games I've played with him in:

Pirates 21er (Town Victory) - http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... -Caribbean
Princess C12 (Town Victory) [i'm spaceman spiff in this game] - http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... Princesses

MovingPictures07 wrote:I really am baffled why you continuously are saying things are "obvious" and why you make such confident assertions when... there's no way for you to know anything. Unless you're mafia. You've said on at least a handful of occasions some sort of sentiment as to how I'm mafia or that it's difficult to take me seriously, yet you haven't voted for me. I don't understand what you're doing.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Yikes, I've been here significantly longer than I was supposed to. Okay. I have millions of things to get done. Be back later. Maybe this evening? Not sure exactly. Early tomorrow morning at the latest.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:You can call me Marmot.

That said, I'll be busy most of the rest of today, but I'll be around tomorrow to chat with all you fine amphibians.

Sloonei wrote:I am lacking energy

Frog wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:You can call me Marmot.

That said, I'll be busy most of the rest of today, but I'll be around tomorrow to chat with all you fine amphibians.

YOU BETTER BRING IT TO THE THUNDERDOOOOOME!

Frog wrote:

Sloonei wrote:I am lacking energy

every time I see your avatar I see

Spoiler: show

a sex toy

Amirite?

Sup dudesickle. Wanna vote one of the 4 muskylurkers?

A2thezebra
Marshmellow
pirfoimrus
dr wigly

Sloonei wrote:

Frog wrote:

Sloonei wrote:I am lacking energy

every time I see your avatar I see

Spoiler: show

a sex toy

Amirite?

Sup dudesickle. Wanna vote one of the 4 muskylurkers?

A2thezebra
Marshmellow
pirfoimrus
dr wigly

I've been meaning to change that for a while, though I've never been tempted to insert it in anything

I prefer to vote for people who have given me reason to vote for them. If I look at any of their posts and see something worth voting for I will. You are still my top suspect but I have like 6 pages to read.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Frog wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:You can call me Marmot.

That said, I'll be busy most of the rest of today, but I'll be around tomorrow to chat with all you fine amphibians.

YOU BETTER BRING IT TO THE THUNDERDOOOOOME!

I don't live in a thunderdome, I live in a wet biome.

Furthermore, I admit that I am mafia. GG Frog, you played nobly. Prepare to die tonight after you correctly lynch me.

Frog wrote:

Sloonei wrote:

Frog wrote:

Sloonei wrote:I am lacking energy

every time I see your avatar I see

Spoiler: show

a sex toy

Amirite?

Sup dudesickle. Wanna vote one of the 4 muskylurkers?

A2thezebra
Marshmellow
pirfoimrus
dr wigly

I've been meaning to change that for a while, though I've never been tempted to insert it in anything

I prefer to vote for people who have given me reason to vote for them. If I look at any of their posts and see something worth voting for I will. You are still my top suspect but I have like 6 pages to read.

LMAO - bring it I guess? I don't really feel like getting into potential TvT's. I'm avoiding any and all disagreement with top posters I've labeled green. If you seriously still want to push me, II'll just ask you reevaluate your approach to the game afterwards :-D

Sloonei wrote:

Frog wrote:

Sloonei wrote:

Frog wrote:

Sloonei wrote:I am lacking energy

every time I see your avatar I see

Spoiler: show

a sex toy

Amirite?

Sup dudesickle. Wanna vote one of the 4 muskylurkers?

A2thezebra
Marshmellow
pirfoimrus
dr wigly

I've been meaning to change that for a while, though I've never been tempted to insert it in anything

I prefer to vote for people who have given me reason to vote for them. If I look at any of their posts and see something worth voting for I will. You are still my top suspect but I have like 6 pages to read.

LMAO - bring it I guess? I don't really feel like getting into potential TvT's. I'm avoiding any and all disagreement with top posters I've labeled green. If you seriously still want to push me, II'll just ask you reevaluate your approach to the game afterwards :-D

I am suspicious of everyone all the time.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Zexy, I appreciate your detailed responses to my questions. I understand now re: Marco, let me know what you think after you've taken a closer look.

Frog wrote:I find it curious how A2theZebra is only on my list.

After I came up with my plan on slankers, A2theZebra began posting quite a bit on quite a lot of the same.
Mostly disagreeing with my plan :-P
I mean, if I were scum pigeonholed into being lynched, I'd probably disagree and pad my post count too I guess.

Frog wrote:I forgot to answer your question MP regarding IAWY never being a D1 vote. IAWY is a very valuable member of the town when he rands town. Typically with IAWY's high posts, IAWY leads the town as town. It should become apparent what IAWY randed by tomorrow.

Sloonei wrote:@Frog: Soneji will turn up, he doesn't need to be replaced. If that's who you're talking about, I dunno. I definitely have town reads (I've already named sig as one this game) but I also never ever rule anybody out unless the host explicitly tells me to.
You've said a number of things this game so far that have had me scratching my chin, furrowing my brow, etc. I'll get more into it once I've reenergized. Right now I'm watching baseball and being a zombie.

Sloonei wrote:@Frog: Soneji will turn up, he doesn't need to be replaced. If that's who you're talking about, I dunno. I definitely have town reads (I've already named sig as one this game) but I also never ever rule anybody out unless the host explicitly tells me to.
You've said a number of things this game so far that have had me scratching my chin, furrowing my brow, etc. I'll get more into it once I've reenergized. Right now I'm watching baseball and being a zombie.

Marco wrote:

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:Okay, now I have a total of 11 posts. I am no longer in the bottom four.

...And yet I am just as likely to be bad as I was before I started posting.

Frog can deny it all he wants, but the methods he's using to base his vote are absolutely advocating a policy lynch.

a2thezebra wrote:If you're fine with a policy lynch, okay, whatever, but advocating a policy lynch while denying that it's a policy lynch is highly suspicious to me. Especially when that policy lynch is based on going after the lurkers. I have seen baddies use lurker policy lynches time and time again to pick off the civilian lower posters while cruising their way to endgame by being very opinionated and very vocal, and almost every time I've seen that they have always advocated lynching lurkers while shying away from the term "policy lynch" as much as possible.

I appreciate the effort and analysis Frog, but my personal opinion on that tactic - if it is genuine - is fuck that noise.

a2thezebra wrote:Not to mention that I've gone after lower posters as a baddie while being extremely loud and obnoxious myself. I've totally used the myth that lower posters are more likely to be baddies than higher posters to my advantage, almost every single time I've been bad in this game. Even after people got used to that being my meta both here and on RYM, it would still work.

"Zebra can't be a baddie even though she did this suspicious thing and that suspicious thing...she's posting so much! I say we lynch one of the lurkers!"

-A few hours later-

"Ah shit, RIP So-and-so. I was so convinced, too. Well, what other lurker could we lynch tomorrow?"

The lesson is never learned.

I would like some input on a2thezebra's post and "performance". Is she generally a principled player who likes doing show-and-tell to make her points? Someone who shows their disapproval of an idea by demonstrating how it fails? Is she someone who has a history of being vehemently against policy lynching low-posters?

This is basically in reponse to a2thezebra's opposition to Frog's plan. I think the case she makes is correct, that we can't automatically assume low posters are scum. It's true. But instead of just pointing that out in a single post with a couple examples, she performs this whole song and dance of making filler posts to rack up her post count, to "demonstrate" the flaw in Frog's plan. That anyone could easily make posts for the numbers. But she's missing out the point.

Scum that lurk and don't post a lot don't just do it to not attract attention. That's counter-intuitive since they know that being on the bottom of the Activity list is bound to draw attention to them. Similarly, just posting for the heck of it (spam posts, etc) to rack up your post count is also not going to help as people are going to find you suspicious if you just fluff-post. So, it's not as simple as low-posting scum coming in and posting a bunch of garbage and they'll be fine. Barring RL reasons, scum who are on the bottom of the activity list are usually there as they don't know how to act town. Primarily because they're not actually motivated to "solve" the game an/or they're uncomfortable with acting in that manner.

To better explain my train of thought, I'll describe a scenario that I have come across myself. You see that you flipped scum, you talk a bit with your scumbuddies but don't post in game thread since you feel a bit awkward just posting on the first page or so when nothing has gone down. You come online much later to find 500+ posts already made. Now, you have to catch up on all this and post your thoughts, but as scum, you already know the motivations behind everyone's posts and it can get both, boring and awkward, to frame responses. So, you just respond to 3-4 posts, maybe make a post or two about your reads, etc, and then hop back to your QT to watch town towning each other. This is the general pattern I see in low posting scum who are at least trying to look like they're making an effort.

Anyway, getting back to my point about a2thezebra, I feel like she is misrepresenting the "low posters are scum" or "policy lynch lurkers" philosophy, whether intentionally or unintentionally. I don't disagree with her that just because someone has low activity/lurking doesn't automatically mean they're scum any more than the people who have high activity. In my experience (and I believe, most everyone else), in practice, it's actually true that each game will have a couple scum at the bottom of the activity list. It's not 100% of course, but the motivation behind pushing low posters / lurkers is understandable and one that I support.

While all 4 lowest activity posters are unlikely to be scum, it's likely that at least one or two among them are scum. This isn't a true "scientific" fact, i.e. logically speaking it can be easily refuted, and I know I've played in games where none of the scum were low posters. And I feel that a2thezebra is using this knowledge (that low posts = scum isn't necessarily true) to discredit Frog's entire stand. Because, even if none of the low posters are scum, pushing them and forcing them to post more is only a good thing for us.

Now, the question I pose is that "Is a2thezebra discrediting Frog's plan to "policy lynch" lurkers because she is completely against this school of thought (Low posters = scum) and can't see the merit of pushing these people to post more? Or is she so convinced that Frog is scum for pushing the "policy lynch" angle that she can't see the merit in going after low posters? Or is she discrediting Frog's plan in an attempt to soft-defend her fellow low posters?"

I think I was a far too wordy above, so I'll lay down my points again in a concise manner. But I suggest people to read the above for better context:

1. While Frog's plan isn't perfect (IMO as I've already pointed out in another post), I think the intent and basic motivation behind the plan is sound. i.e. we pressure the lurkers and not give anyone (even town) an opportunity to post less than they should.
2. a2thezebra is against Frog's plan to "policy lynch" lurkers, which I agree with, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't even pressure them.
3. And while a2thezebra isn't actually saying we shouldn't pressure them, the way she went about discrediting Frog's plan seems far too "passionate" and "theatrical" (I don't mean to say fake, just with a flair) to just be an observation. Looks to me like she's either very passionate against policy lynches on low posters or she's trying to soft-defend low posters by discouraging a push on them.

DrWilgy wrote:

sig wrote:Also

Vote Unvote

I mislike Wilgy's vote, but can't tell if this is his normal lovable town shenanigans or mafia pretending to be lovable town while avoiding any vote.

Sig this would imply that I'm only loveable based on alignment :P

MovingPictures07 wrote:

sig wrote:There isn't much to go on yet but, inaword had a towny entrance to the thread.

He is doing some RVS, but that is common on MU. I usually dislike doing this however, it isn't an alignment indicator.

These two statements read incompatible to me. Please explain.

Dyslexicon wrote:I don't have an overview over who knows who, who's from here and how familiar this type of setup is to people, and I'd really like to have that.

So I'll just state that:
- I've played a couple of games with PSI.
- I'm not from here (but I really like the site *buddies everyone)
- I consider this setup pretty standard.

And if other would like to share that would be appreciated.

Dyslexicon wrote:Sig seems less town to me than before. Null read. Gives relatievly little.

Dyslexicon wrote:I'm a bit bothered that noone has had more than 3 votes at a point (iirc). I'm not used to that at all. We need more wagons. We need clear lynch candidates.

DrWilgy wrote:Am I a slanker?

DrWilgy wrote:Am I a slanker?

Marco wrote:

Sloonei wrote:@Frog: Soneji will turn up, he doesn't need to be replaced. If that's who you're talking about, I dunno. I definitely have town reads (I've already named sig as one this game) but I also never ever rule anybody out unless the host explicitly tells me to.
You've said a number of things this game so far that have had me scratching my chin, furrowing my brow, etc. I'll get more into it once I've reenergized. Right now I'm watching baseball and being a zombie.

Can you tell me some of your town-reads besides sig?

sig wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:Am I a slanker?

You can be my slanker. :P I'll feed you every day and clean your cage.