The Syndicate

DrWilgy wrote:

Long Con wrote:Hardly the strongest convictions. It's a little much to publicly lament their reassessment.

But it really did. I'm unsure of the three I felt that there was a baddie amongst.

Now I have to rejudge that initial thought along with decide whom to vote. (My time is limited to also do so until tomorrow -__-)

What prompts this sudden lack of assurance?

DrWilgy wrote:Tomorrow we could lynch FZ, MP, or Epi. I can confidently say that there is a baddie in this group. I doubt MP and Epi is a team however. I also doubt that FZ and MP are a team. Epi + FZ is plausible.

Ok, I see. So there is a baddie in FZ, Epi, and MP. MP is revealed as Civ. How does that cause a rejudgement? I really don't understand why your opinion isn't now that there is a baddie between Epi and FZ. You even suggested that they might be a team.

I mean, unless your suspicion of "MP, Epi, or FZ" relied on MP being bad, then what the what?

I want to vote someone. I think I'll pick Luke.

Epignosis wrote:I want to vote someone. I think I'll pick Luke.

I hope this makes the Civs win.

No, quite the opposite. MP being civ supported Epi and FZ being bad.

Lynching MP would've validated that or invalidated that.

The lack of stability in my read is that mafia made the kill that gave us the info. Had it been a lynching I would've voted FZ and Epi the next cycle in a heartbeat.

The reassessment I called for was because of this. I need to take a step back and reread with the flow of the conversation in mind, subject points and focuses of interaction to see if my original observations are supported by the new information (though it was gained through a nk).

Epi, during my brief skim, I recall you stating something along the lines of "Lynch me so Wilgy can be done with me" yes? What prompts you to think this is needed? Do you think I tunnel you without thought or judgement?

DrWilgy wrote:Epi, during my brief skim, I recall you stating something along the lines of "Lynch me so Wilgy can be done with me" yes? What prompts you to think this is needed? Do you think I tunnel you without thought or judgement?

I do.

DrWilgy wrote:No, quite the opposite. MP being civ supported Epi and FZ being bad.

Lynching MP would've validated that or invalidated that.

The lack of stability in my read is that mafia made the kill that gave us the info. Had it been a lynching I would've voted FZ and Epi the next cycle in a heartbeat.

The reassessment I called for was because of this. I need to take a step back and reread with the flow of the conversation in mind, subject points and focuses of interaction to see if my original observations are supported by the new information (though it was gained through a nk).

Epi, during my brief skim, I recall you stating something along the lines of "Lynch me so Wilgy can be done with me" yes? What prompts you to think this is needed? Do you think I tunnel you without thought or judgement?

Not bad.

I look forward to hearing your reassessment conclusions.

Long Con wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:No, quite the opposite. MP being civ supported Epi and FZ being bad.

Lynching MP would've validated that or invalidated that.

The lack of stability in my read is that mafia made the kill that gave us the info. Had it been a lynching I would've voted FZ and Epi the next cycle in a heartbeat.

The reassessment I called for was because of this. I need to take a step back and reread with the flow of the conversation in mind, subject points and focuses of interaction to see if my original observations are supported by the new information (though it was gained through a nk).

Epi, during my brief skim, I recall you stating something along the lines of "Lynch me so Wilgy can be done with me" yes? What prompts you to think this is needed? Do you think I tunnel you without thought or judgement?

Not bad.

I look forward to hearing your reassessment conclusions.

Not bad? It's horrible. This is a closed setup where a lynch or Night kill provides the same information. MP being lynched wouldn't change the fact that I am a civilian and FZ. is whatever she is.

Horrid thinking.

Epignosis wrote:

Long Con wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:No, quite the opposite. MP being civ supported Epi and FZ being bad.

Lynching MP would've validated that or invalidated that.

The lack of stability in my read is that mafia made the kill that gave us the info. Had it been a lynching I would've voted FZ and Epi the next cycle in a heartbeat.

The reassessment I called for was because of this. I need to take a step back and reread with the flow of the conversation in mind, subject points and focuses of interaction to see if my original observations are supported by the new information (though it was gained through a nk).

Epi, during my brief skim, I recall you stating something along the lines of "Lynch me so Wilgy can be done with me" yes? What prompts you to think this is needed? Do you think I tunnel you without thought or judgement?

Not bad.

I look forward to hearing your reassessment conclusions.

Not bad? It's horrible. This is a closed setup where a lynch or Night kill provides the same information. MP being lynched wouldn't change the fact that I am a civilian and FZ. is whatever she is.

Horrid thinking.

No, it doesn't change your role. It changes how I approach a read.

Epignosis wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:Epi, during my brief skim, I recall you stating something along the lines of "Lynch me so Wilgy can be done with me" yes? What prompts you to think this is needed? Do you think I tunnel you without thought or judgement?

I do.

Can you answer the full question? Do you think my thoughts on you come from genuine suspicion?

I answered your original question. Now you are asking a new question.

Epignosis wrote:I answered your original question. Now you are asking a new question.

What prompts you to think that is needed?

DrWilgy wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I answered your original question. Now you are asking a new question.

What prompts you to think that is needed?

"Do you think I tunnel you without thought or judgement?"

"I do."

Implicit in that response is the response to your previous question: I think you come after me without thought or judgment, and so it's best if I go away so you can do better.

Epignosis wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I answered your original question. Now you are asking a new question.

What prompts you to think that is needed?

"Do you think I tunnel you without thought or judgement?"

"I do."

Implicit in that response is the response to your previous question: I think you come after me without thought or judgment, and so it's best if I go away so you can do better.

I disagree with this, but I do somewhat believe you when you say that you say this based on your interactions with me and Marmot in Blue vs Red.

Epi here's what I saw. MP was a primary force on FZ being bad. FZ was a counter force in that exchange, causing what I would say to be an almost even clash during it's time. Think of two different colered clouds bumping into each other but not mixing.

Then a tertiary force comes along with a Hazlenut vote. Clearly a high momentum force that sways the MP force away. That was you Epi. Then that momentum blew away the FZ suspicion and the thread began to fluidly mix again.

Here's the problem I have with that. I know that as a baddie, you are good with momentum. The example I hinted at was vocaroo. You placed a vote on me when other players where discussing my lynching. I saw this as an attempt to save Zebra by you swaying the thread/vote momentum.

Unlike vocaroo though, this one took off and you questioned if it was a bus. I don't think you really thought it was a bus. I don't think many people would see it as a bus either considering the votes went from 3v0 to 3v4.

You also noted the #1 Feb often leads lynches. Mindset behind this, I read this from many angles and the angle that makes the most sense to me is "The baddie who is scared of the wagon they just made". Which would also reflect why you moved your vote around as much as you did, only to move it back.

Now, you are stating that you'd rather be killed so I do better? do you honestly believe that? wouldn't a civilian mindset prefer "We should kill you so that we can move past your suspicion of me?" especially if the suspicion came from what you felt was nowhere?

There is an angle where I can see otherwise, but I don't think this is the case. The chances aren't as great.

Is my suspicion still unwarranted?

Epignosis wrote:

Long Con wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:No, quite the opposite. MP being civ supported Epi and FZ being bad.

Lynching MP would've validated that or invalidated that.

The lack of stability in my read is that mafia made the kill that gave us the info. Had it been a lynching I would've voted FZ and Epi the next cycle in a heartbeat.

The reassessment I called for was because of this. I need to take a step back and reread with the flow of the conversation in mind, subject points and focuses of interaction to see if my original observations are supported by the new information (though it was gained through a nk).

Epi, during my brief skim, I recall you stating something along the lines of "Lynch me so Wilgy can be done with me" yes? What prompts you to think this is needed? Do you think I tunnel you without thought or judgement?

Not bad.

I look forward to hearing your reassessment conclusions.

Not bad? It's horrible. This is a closed setup where a lynch or Night kill provides the same information. MP being lynched wouldn't change the fact that I am a civilian and FZ. is whatever she is.

Horrid thinking.

This is an open setup though.

DrWilgy wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I answered your original question. Now you are asking a new question.

What prompts you to think that is needed?

"Do you think I tunnel you without thought or judgement?"

"I do."

Implicit in that response is the response to your previous question: I think you come after me without thought or judgment, and so it's best if I go away so you can do better.

I disagree with this, but I do somewhat believe you when you say that you say this based on your interactions with me and Marmot in Blue vs Red.

Epi here's what I saw. MP was a primary force on FZ being bad. FZ was a counter force in that exchange, causing what I would say to be an almost even clash during it's time. Think of two different colered clouds bumping into each other but not mixing.

Then a tertiary force comes along with a Hazlenut vote. Clearly a high momentum force that sways the MP force away. That was you Epi. Then that momentum blew away the FZ suspicion and the thread began to fluidly mix again.

Here's the problem I have with that. I know that as a baddie, you are good with momentum. The example I hinted at was vocaroo. You placed a vote on me when other players where discussing my lynching. I saw this as an attempt to save Zebra by you swaying the thread/vote momentum.

Unlike vocaroo though, this one took off and you questioned if it was a bus. I don't think you really thought it was a bus. I don't think many people would see it as a bus either considering the votes went from 3v0 to 3v4.

You also noted the #1 Feb often leads lynches. Mindset behind this, I read this from many angles and the angle that makes the most sense to me is "The baddie who is scared of the wagon they just made". Which would also reflect why you moved your vote around as much as you did, only to move it back.

Now, you are stating that you'd rather be killed so I do better? do you honestly believe that? wouldn't a civilian mindset prefer "We should kill you so that we can move past your suspicion of me?" especially if the suspicion came from what you felt was nowhere?

There is an angle where I can see otherwise, but I don't think this is the case. The chances aren't as great.

Is my suspicion still unwarranted?

I do this all the time as a civilian though, so

DrWilgy wrote:You also noted the #1 Feb often leads lynches. Mindset behind this, I read this from many angles and the angle that makes the most sense to me is "The baddie who is scared of the wagon they just made". Which would also reflect why you moved your vote around as much as you did, only to move it back.

This is where you lose me, Wilgy. Can you try to expand on why you are inclined to view Epi's observation about his tendency to lead lynches despite winning often as a bad guy as stemming from the mindset of a "baddie who is scared of the wagon they just made"? When I see that comment, and when I pair it with the source, I see incredulity. It's an external observation by a guy who is aware of two truths: "I have a lot of mafia wins" and "I lead a lot of lynches". These truths exist regardless of his alignment, and the potential for the observation to be made would seem to exist also in any game regardless of alignment.

speedchuck made an observation which is accurate: about half of the player roster is currently participating in this game, and with so many away it has rendered the first half of Day 2 rather stagnant. Get in here y'all, ask questions, answer questions, share reads, say things, help to move the game forward.

Perhaps later this phase pre-EOD if we can generate an active thread with a decent number of people present we can try some live GTH reads to lend a clearer sense of direction.

Elohcin, in your ten posts I see one halfway discernible read: Epignosis as "probably good", from early in Day 1. Otherwise the closest you come to a read is to assert that "they" who suspect you should know better -- undefined people with an implied but unstated read. I can understand you being busily engaged with real life things, but this is still less than ideal.

Dizzy, I want to see a response to Luke's case against you.

Luke, I want to know what additional thoughts you have on the continuing discussion.

INH, I want to see meaningful involvement well before the last minute.

I don't want to see a bunch of otherwise quiet people showing up in the final hour, scrambling to catch up in the pressure moments.

FZ, I hope you can answer to these accusations and questions before the end of the day phase. Also, looking back to that I am able to answer my own prior question about your stated disagreement with Epignosis without suspecting him (regarding his comment about the civilian advantage of changeable votes).

When Long Con inserted himself into a Wilgy/Epi dialogue, he provided neutral commentary without necessarily finding either player suspicious. Later you asked him what the purpose was of inserting himself thusly without that suspicion in his mindset. I would ask you what fundamental difference there is in this example of your treatment of Epignosis: you voiced disagreement with a strategic perspective he stated but didn't suspect him for it. What was your purpose for saying so?

I should be here well before EOD. My sleep schedule is a hot mess right now.

It occurs to me that our EOD may be in conflict with the burglary game happening tomorrow (if there's much overlap in the player rosters). Hopefully we can divide as evenly as possible since this will be an important lynch. In this particular setup of 10 vs. 3, two civilian lynches to start the game would be a more severe problem than it would be in most games.

Actually that may not be much of an issue. At the moment the only overlap is LC and I.

I'm sorry, I thought I'd have a little more time to be here before EOD, but I'm literally at the door and getting yelled at to finish what I'm doing. LC, I saw you replied, but didn't have time to read thoroughly. I'm not bad, and if I have to get lynched for people to look into you, so be it. For now, I'm leaving my vote on you.


Bye

FZ. wrote:I'm sorry, I thought I'd have a little more time to be here before EOD, but I'm literally at the door and getting yelled at to finish what I'm doing. LC, I saw you replied, but didn't have time to read thoroughly. I'm not bad, and if I have to get lynched for people to look into you, so be it. For now, I'm leaving my vote on you.


Bye

You do have a little more time. And it's fine, you said you wouldn't be around much and asked us not to lynch you while you're not around, so that's cool. We can lynch someone else today and you tomorrow, no problemo!

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Actually that may not be much of an issue. At the moment the only overlap is LC and I.

I'm in a Burglary?? I think you have the wrong guy. I'm working tonight.

Long Con wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Actually that may not be much of an issue. At the moment the only overlap is LC and I.

I'm in a Burglary?? I think you have the wrong guy. I'm working tonight.

Might want to tell Quin, you're currently signed up.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:You also noted the #1 Feb often leads lynches. Mindset behind this, I read this from many angles and the angle that makes the most sense to me is "The baddie who is scared of the wagon they just made". Which would also reflect why you moved your vote around as much as you did, only to move it back.

This is where you lose me, Wilgy. Can you try to expand on why you are inclined to view Epi's observation about his tendency to lead lynches despite winning often as a bad guy as stemming from the mindset of a "baddie who is scared of the wagon they just made"? When I see that comment, and when I pair it with the source, I see incredulity. It's an external observation by a guy who is aware of two truths: "I have a lot of mafia wins" and "I lead a lot of lynches". These truths exist regardless of his alignment, and the potential for the observation to be made would seem to exist also in any game regardless of alignment.

I'd like to think that the proclaiming of this observation has more when to it to be observed.

What was it's purpose given that the wagon Epi had wanted just took off?

It was a strong case and wagon in Epi's mind. It prompted him to ask who was bussing their teammate. Due to this, I see his statement as a regret other than an irony. It weakened his own case and I'm unsire why.

If it was because he regretted the wagon I can see 2 reasons,
1. He's uncomfortable leading a wagon on a civ.
2. He wants others to form ideas and not just bandwagon.

Reasons why I have trouble reading into option 2, the civ angle is because he moved back when the wagon was well stacked up. He took away his high momentum vote, put it in the same spot, just as a low momentum vote.

I don't think Epi would do that if he had a thought that players were sheeping.

The other reason why I have trouble reading into option 2 is the wondering of who is bussing. If a civ stated this, it would mean they believe in their vote. Why not be happy the person you think is bad is getting lynched?

Marmot wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Long Con wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:No, quite the opposite. MP being civ supported Epi and FZ being bad.

Lynching MP would've validated that or invalidated that.

The lack of stability in my read is that mafia made the kill that gave us the info. Had it been a lynching I would've voted FZ and Epi the next cycle in a heartbeat.

The reassessment I called for was because of this. I need to take a step back and reread with the flow of the conversation in mind, subject points and focuses of interaction to see if my original observations are supported by the new information (though it was gained through a nk).

Epi, during my brief skim, I recall you stating something along the lines of "Lynch me so Wilgy can be done with me" yes? What prompts you to think this is needed? Do you think I tunnel you without thought or judgement?

Not bad.

I look forward to hearing your reassessment conclusions.

Not bad? It's horrible. This is a closed setup where a lynch or Night kill provides the same information. MP being lynched wouldn't change the fact that I am a civilian and FZ. is whatever she is.

Horrid thinking.

This is an open setup though.

I meant open setup.

DrWilgy wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I answered your original question. Now you are asking a new question.

What prompts you to think that is needed?

"Do you think I tunnel you without thought or judgement?"

"I do."

Implicit in that response is the response to your previous question: I think you come after me without thought or judgment, and so it's best if I go away so you can do better.

I disagree with this, but I do somewhat believe you when you say that you say this based on your interactions with me and Marmot in Blue vs Red.

Epi here's what I saw. MP was a primary force on FZ being bad. FZ was a counter force in that exchange, causing what I would say to be an almost even clash during it's time. Think of two different colered clouds bumping into each other but not mixing.

Then a tertiary force comes along with a Hazlenut vote. Clearly a high momentum force that sways the MP force away. That was you Epi. Then that momentum blew away the FZ suspicion and the thread began to fluidly mix again.

Here's the problem I have with that. I know that as a baddie, you are good with momentum.

The qualifier is superfluous. As a civilian, I am good with momentum.

DrWilgy wrote:The example I hinted at was vocaroo. You placed a vote on me when other players where discussing my lynching. I saw this as an attempt to save Zebra by you swaying the thread/vote momentum.

Unlike vocaroo though, this one took off and you questioned if it was a bus. I don't think you really thought it was a bus. I don't think many people would see it as a bus either considering the votes went from 3v0 to 3v4.

Asking "Who is throwing nutella under the bus?" does not mean I necessarily think someone was throwing her under the bus. And clearly no one was.

DrWilgy wrote:You also noted the #1 Feb often leads lynches. Mindset behind this, I read this from many angles and the angle that makes the most sense to me is "The baddie who is scared of the wagon they just made". Which would also reflect why you moved your vote around as much as you did, only to move it back.

I would like you to find a single instance of me being scared of a bandwagon I authored as mafia.

DrWilgy wrote:Now, you are stating that you'd rather be killed so I do better? do you honestly believe that? wouldn't a civilian mindset prefer "We should kill you so that we can move past your suspicion of me?" especially if the suspicion came from what you felt was nowhere?

I don't understand what you're asking here.

DrWilgy wrote:There is an angle where I can see otherwise, but I don't think this is the case. The chances aren't as great.

Is my suspicion still unwarranted?

Yes.

Epignosis wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:Now, you are stating that you'd rather be killed so I do better? do you honestly believe that? wouldn't a civilian mindset prefer "We should kill you so that we can move past your suspicion of me?" especially if the suspicion came from what you felt was nowhere?

I don't understand what you're asking here.

You said we should kill you so Wilgy can get past his suspicion. Shouldn't you prefer to kill Wilgy, since you know 100% that you are Civ, theoretically?

I had to take my car to the shop and I'll be a nomad with a phone until I get it back. I'll do my best.

Long Con wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:Now, you are stating that you'd rather be killed so I do better? do you honestly believe that? wouldn't a civilian mindset prefer "We should kill you so that we can move past your suspicion of me?" especially if the suspicion came from what you felt was nowhere?

I don't understand what you're asking here.

You said we should kill you so Wilgy can get past his suspicion. Shouldn't you prefer to kill Wilgy, since you know 100% that you are Civ, theoretically?

I see. He meant "lynched" then.

I don't think like that. The second best thing that could have happened in BvR would have been me getting lynched Day 2. That would have forced MM and Wilgy (and anybody else who suspected me) to scrutinize other people, and I would not have been alive to run the civilians into the ground.

What do you think of speedchuck? I have a bad feeling about him, but I went through his posts and I don't see much to catch him on. Some of it is connected to FZ turning up bad, I think.

Luke11646 wrote:Dyslexicon changed her vote too much and is always pointing fingers. She just feels fishy, I don't trust her and just too many cat memes.

My vote for MP at the start of the game was RVS, and all the other votes too lol (not really). I don't know what to say to this. Can you tell me how many game you've played?

Long Con wrote:Not a bad case actually, Luke.

I thought MP was killed because he was assumed to be the cop. I thought he was the cop, with all his cop talk.

What is not bad about it in your own words?

I'm not sure I follow all the conversations going on very well. o.o

The language things are interesting though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Long Con wrote:What do you think of speedchuck? I have a bad feeling about him, but I went through his posts and I don't see much to catch him on. Some of it is connected to FZ turning up bad, I think.

Please explain that last sentence further, if you don't mind.

And if you want to ask me any questions, I am less sick ATM.

linki: Me neither, Dizzy.

"Anyone can use adverbs." LOL. That is the funniest thing I've read in a long time and I have no idea why, but I'm imagining a whole infomercial.

speedchuck wrote:I feel like this day consists of too much theory and too little reads, and I'm too sick to do much about it. Hopefully that'll clear up in the next 24 hours.

The thing between Epi, LC, and FZ doesn't feel like three townies going at each other to me. That said, I don't know which one to look at, and my headache has compounded just by catching up. If anyone wants to do some GTH reads between the three, that'd be pretty relevant.

Marmot is still 100% on my good list. Dizzy somewhat less so.

There are 5 people talking in the thread, and ten alive. That makes, what 6 people silent, including me? That's not gonna end well.

You hurt me.
This game day feels radically different reading though, maybe cause I haven't actually been in it much and neither has my gifs and my cloud9 emoji, but some of the conversations feel like they're kind of side tracks a bit or something.

The way it highlights the light touch with which you have treated the game, displayed in your fickle vote changes and the use of cat memes over discussion or questions when voting someone. Also some interactions that I am appreciative of rereading, for my own personal game-solving spreadsheet.

That's what I liked about it on first read-through. Your question made me go back and analyze more how good or bad the case objectively was, and I do see your unspoken point that it can be argued as a bad case. I guess my comment meant more what the case did for me, than it did about the quality of the case. It was also the most in-depth post that Luke has posted to-date, so my words were in part, meant to be encouraging in that regard.

Dyslexicon wrote:

Long Con wrote:Not a bad case actually, Luke.

I thought MP was killed because he was assumed to be the cop. I thought he was the cop, with all his cop talk.

What is not bad about it in your own words?

That was in response to this ^

Epignosis wrote:Random reasons. Cool.

Yus. Mostly cause you're so null to me and I don't know what to do with that. Can we hug it out?

Long Con wrote:The way it highlights the light touch with which you have treated the game, displayed in your fickle vote changes and the use of cat memes over discussion or questions when voting someone. Also some interactions that I am appreciative of rereading, for my own personal game-solving spreadsheet.

That's what I liked about it on first read-through. Your question made me go back and analyze more how good or bad the case objectively was, and I do see your unspoken point that it can be argued as a bad case. I guess my comment meant more what the case did for me, than it did about the quality of the case. It was also the most in-depth post that Luke has posted to-date, so my words were in part, meant to be encouraging in that regard.

I'm playing this game like I like to play my mafia games. I may not look to take it too seriously un the surface, but I believe there's plenty of content to find in my posts. I don't see a problem with changing my vote a lot either.

Speaking of, I already know who to vote for, but I won't do it yet. Meheheheh.

Dyslexicon wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Random reasons. Cool.

Yus. Mostly cause you're so null to me and I don't know what to do with that. Can we hug it out?

Who is not "null" to you and why?

Epignosis wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:Epi, during my brief skim, I recall you stating something along the lines of "Lynch me so Wilgy can be done with me" yes? What prompts you to think this is needed? Do you think I tunnel you without thought or judgement?

I do.

That's rather dramatic.

Long Con wrote:What do you think of speedchuck? I have a bad feeling about him, but I went through his posts and I don't see much to catch him on. Some of it is connected to FZ turning up bad, I think.

I don't have anything working in speedchuck's favor. I would lynch him.

Epignosis wrote:

Dyslexicon wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Random reasons. Cool.

Yus. Mostly cause you're so null to me and I don't know what to do with that. Can we hug it out?

Who is not "null" to you and why?

Will post readses when done reading everything.

Epignosis wrote:

Long Con wrote:What do you think of speedchuck? I have a bad feeling about him, but I went through his posts and I don't see much to catch him on. Some of it is connected to FZ turning up bad, I think.

I don't have anything working in speedchuck's favor. I would lynch him.

Who would you not lynch?