The Syndicate

BY POSTING 1000 POSTS, YOU, JJJ, HAVE AWOKEN THE MAFIA GENIE.

Reassessment of RadicalFuzz:
For most of Fuzz's time in this game he has been a consistent town read, so I think it's important to review his content to try to determine why -- and whether those town gut reads should stick now in a later situation independent of whatever evidence-based case might be built. I highlight this post first because I think it illustrates the perspective that initially read town to me (indeed, more town than I would anticipate from a player just replacing in). I threw a challenging and weird read in his face moments after his arrival (called him a town read when he had like four posts) and let him handle that however he may.

He responded with trepidation and said my hasty read was disconcerting. This is the kind of thing I like to see: he doesn't know me at all or what kind of player I am, so to be confronted with an abrupt town read like I gave him should be disconcerting. I think most mafia-aligned players are more inclined to shrug this off quietly or with a joke, but not all. If Fuzz is mafia, he has already shown a fantastic skill for portraying the townie mindset in the earliest portions of his post history. It's why I read him as a townie for so long.
I suppose Fuzz was rather quick to accept my explanation. At least he continued pressing me on my Diiny interaction though.
Brian had expressed suspicion of me because he thought I might deliberately inflating my post count to insane heights to dissuade people from actually reviewing my ISO. Fuzz turned this accusation aside, though his reasoning for doing so might not be totally consistent: it seems to imply that there are advantages to town for a mafia JJJ to have so much information in his posts. This is not the same thing as seeing the town side of JJJ posting so much, which is what I'd expect to be the focus of this soft defense.
Two trends from Fuzz's early ISO are visible in this post. First, he has repeatedly addressed specific players in the thread with specific questions, and second he has sought people's perspectives of him. I think there are two fronts on which this can be read:

1. Fuzz is a townie who thrives on direct communication with other players as a means of adding substance to his read on them. I consider this a staple of my own methods, so I understand the mindset well.

2. Fuzz is a mafioso who has elected to simulate his hunting interests by isolating questions to specific players, with those questions often being somewhat bizarre.

#1 resonates with me a lot like I said, and that also contributed to my early town read on him. #2 is not a stretch though, I think it's perfectly believable that a person could adopt this strategy (especially when replacing into a highly active game thread) as a mafioso to appear involved and engaged without necessarily getting into the dirty work.
I highlighted this exchange for reasons already stated in my prior cases. I'm not going to say more about it now, it may come up again later in this review. Highlighting for my own reference.
Day 4 vote for me, as well as a call to MacDougall to help take me out.

Day 4 vote: JaggedJimmyJay (2nd of 2)

There's content in his posts that suggests suspicion of me. There's also a mild defense of me. And he asked me questions. I am the central focus of his earliest content, which I suppose would make this an unsurprising vote. This was the day when Sorsha was lynched with Devin as the primary counterwagon, so Fuzz's vote was off-wagon.
Explains his vote to me. He grants that it's essentially a gut read but he does try to put it into meaningful words. This is another example of a Fuzz post that bears a townie appearance on the surface and influenced my early gut town read on him.
This still reads awkwardly to me, not because of how it's worded but because of its place in this ISO. Fuzz did say at one point that it is his preference to play the game in the present (meaning he is less likely to engage in lengthy reviews instead of maintain real-time dialogue), so I guess that would suit him communicating with Matt about his SK theory for Mac. I think the reason I am bothered by this is that Fuzz found a way to cast doubt on Matt's perspective and indirectly defend Mac's play in one sentence -- a sentence that doesn't serve to affect Fuzz's actual read on Mac. I'm struggling to convey this thought clearly though, it's a lot of gut at work. I think I'm trying to say that this post can only function to benefit Mac and that it doesn't evidence Fuzz has a personal investment in getting a read on Mac's alignment.
Fuzz's interaction with Mac at this point is otherwise only mildly adversarial. They exchange a few barbs but it never escalates into anything serious.
He made this defense of Mac when the thread was largely turning against Mac. One can give Fuzz credit for taking a stand against the thread's momentum and providing a substantive case for why, or at least I can since I did the same thing. He was obviously just as wrong as I was though so his motivations can be fairly questioned.
This was the second time he asked me this question. Again I like that he was persistent about seeing his thought process all the way through to a conclusion even if the question doesn't seem to offer much opportunity for real insight.

Day 5 vote: espers

He contributed to the espers wagon that I got rolling, with Devin as the doomed counterwagon. There are a few mentions of espers earlier in Fuzz's posts, but he doesn't quite convey clear suspicion or a case. The closest he came was to engage me about the matter of espers's alignment. He did lament that espers was not interacting with him after their initial exchange though.

~~~

I'm content with where I stand on this review. I've illustrated that Fuzz has done a good job of conveying a town-seeming mindset. On this front I think he might be the opposite of Russ (passed the evidence test, failed the eye test). Fuzz fails the evidence test and passes the eye test. There is one key moment where he fails the eye test though, at least for me, and it continues to be a massive hangup in my ability to read him as a townie:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'd like to hear what everyone thinks of Fuzz in light of a specific point. When asked why he didn't pursue Floyd after his "thread text" slip (which occurred in a conversation between Floyd and Fuzz), these were Fuzz's answers:

RadicalFuzz wrote:Diiny I didn't push him because I didn't want to lynch him in his first game for that. It was emotion-driven ignorance. I thought he might become engaged in his defense, but that was not the case. I don't regret not pushing him, I'd do it again every time.

RadicalFuzz wrote:Diiny you are correct. I thought I made that abundantly clear at the time. I posted that I found it objectively scummy but wasn't going to personally pursue it. I attempted to be clear that I was aware my decision was an illogical one.

RadicalFuzz wrote:It's not being nice, it's wanting to give him a chance to fail. My first game I was Mafia and made a comeback for the win. I have a large ego and enjoy it when other people fail things I succeeded at. It falls under "illogical" all the same. I'm curious though, are you going to vote me for it?

He has made a claim that must either be taken or left at face value. I'm going to leave my own perspective on the matter at the door for now. I just want to hear what the rest of you think when you read these responses.

It isn't immediately alarming to me that Fuzz did not mention Floyd's scumslip as a slip until two day phases after the fact. I didn't mention it as a scumslip when it happened either and I was active in the thread. The problem here is his explanation for why he didn't mention it.

If he'd said: "Well, J3, I honestly didn't register it as a scumslip until later. It didn't really occur to me in the moment."

I might be okay with that. Instead, he said that he knew it was a bad-looking potential slip, and that he declined to mention it as a nice gesture to Floyd the new player.

I don't know how I am supposed to believe that at face value. That sounds like a lie. And a lie in this scenario is not a good look. The only other moment in this game that made me feel this way was when Black Rock claimed she was only throwing shade at Roxy to "get her in the thread". This just a dubious way of explaining away a point of suspicion that I don't think fits inside a townie mindset. How could it? Heck, if it is to be believed, then I would sooner attribute the maneuver to the serial killer than to a townie.

If I can't reconcile this problem, I can't be anything but suspicious of RadicalFuzz. Even for all of the town-inclined gut reads I've had on his exploratory/investigative posts, this problem is too significant for that to change my perspective.

Conclusion / TL;DR

Is this guy mafia-aligned? More likely than average

Is this guy the serial killer? Average likelihood

Diiny wrote:

No sleep until we find all the scum, Diiny.

I won't be able to review everyone like I wanted to before the day phase ends. I will have to prioritize certain players above others tomorrow night. I am willing to field requests though from anyone who might want to see a full reassessment of a specific player. I may or may not comply.

Based upon my current perspective of this thread, I am most inclined to endorse a lynch of RadicalFuzz or Bullzeye. I might be able to be convinced on Russ. I still need to look at what Strawhenge has produced on Choutas, because that was not a lynch I entered this phase wanting to pursue. I pledge to do so Straw -- bug me about it tomorrow if I forget.

So much to do so little time. At least Day 11 will be a weekend.

When I get this invested in a game I start to actually emotionally hate the mafia. Despise. I feel bad now, y'all are just playing your roles and having fun in a Mafia game. I'm sorry. But please die.

Jay thinks 630 posts is just something to sneeze at.

But seriously bed calls.

i've gone Bullzeye for now.

Syndicate new record! Wooooo!

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Strawhenge wrote:

Diiny wrote:apparently the inception noise is one of the horn stabs from slowed down a bazillion times in accordance with dreams going super slowly or whatever

Yeah! I know! Isn't that rad?! #shameless #nolanfanboy

I just watched it again recently and seriously I could watch it any time of any day, just to have it on. I love it and I don't care who knows it or thinks it's bandwagony to like a popular Nolan movie. My love knows no bounds. GAHHHHHHHHH

(imagine that I haven't taken a breath this whole post)

Link

See you there, Straw.

Strawhenge wrote: Who I Think Is Scum: A Rainbow List

Ricochet ★★½

God...dammit!

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Top secret:

In past games, most of the time when I have made a "rallying cry" type of post to try to motivate the town to action, the people who have been most willing to take me up on that have been bad guys.

Hi Russ, hi Choutas, hi Marsh, hi Rico.

Just don't prove to be bad, k? I like the stuff in my house.

Ricochet wrote:

Strawhenge wrote: Who I Think Is Scum: A Rainbow List

Ricochet ★★½

God...dammit!

That's a neutral read!

motel room wrote:i've gone Bullzeye for now.

Por quoi?

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Jay thinks 630 posts is just something to sneeze at.

how the hell am I in the top 10 posters? how?

Strawhenge wrote:

motel room wrote:i've gone Bullzeye for now.

Por quoi?

Additionally, I don't really buy Choutas's case on Bullz. It seems like the most superficial case, perhaps in the entire history of this our planet earth.

Convince me, Keej.

DrWilgy

Start up position in relation to LC Votes according to Marsh

Strawhenge wrote:wow there arent even guests in here

im all alone

help

I'm dead, no can do.

Went to sleep, woke up, went to uni cafe and some time during those actions remembered that I don't like it when people 'reset their reads.' I distinctly remember scum sloonei playing that card, and, just as J's doing now, is backing away from previous suspects, using the read reset as his reasoning.

Why was Rad your OH MY GOD YES LET'S LYNCH HIM vote if he gave you these town pangs from the beginning? Why are you no longer even prepared to lynch him today?

Very unnerved.

DrWilgy wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:MOTEL ROOM

RADICAL FUZZ

RICOCHET

ROXY

Good

Good

Good

Bad

Surprised to see fuzz listed as good here, wilgy

Let me get this straight, Wilgy. You:

Had fuzz as good
Flopped on him and considered him a scum read due to unspecified 'mafia interactions', the celebration posts and the 'I wouldn't do that' post, although, for all the terribleness leaking out of that latter wifomy post all wilgy actually said about it was:

Choutas made it a point to say "There is a first for everything." Why? unless there was actual purpose to it?

Which I think is actually a weak as fuck case.

But then a bunch of weird underhanded shit happens that's borderline illegal and he's town again.

I want to get off Dr. Wilgy's Wild Ride.

Lecture in 5. More random spouts of investigation l8r. Save me some work, wilgy, and, alongside all the other shit I've thrown at you, provide me of an example of you bringing up some original, subjective content or leading an investigation or something to make me think you're not just responding to stuff if you know what I mean

Diiny J3 still wants me lynched. This time he's specified the reason down just the Floyd interaction. As an aside, J3, you don't know how funny it is that you're crediting all of these "great townie mindsets" to a supposedly scum Fuzz. My scum game is pretty poor. Just got a chuckle out of that.

J3, weird question, but could you tell me your cleanest 3 players? Excluding yourself, of course.

Wilgy voted to break my tie and save me, so from a purely personal perspective I almost have to believe he's civilian at this point.

My bad, read Jay's ''most inclined" as "not inclined"

Strawhenge wrote:Cast my vote for Choutas for now...And the other two of my top three scumspects are the only other ones on the vote. Way to make me second-guess my entire life, guys.

Let me picture this. I am your second scummiest player at 1 and a half star and MM is the worst with half a star and I take the vote for the day? OK bro.

RadicalFuzz to put everyone on an even playing field.

Linki: I'm not on the poll Choutas.

I have no problem with you lynching me I am cool with that. Really. It's just hilarious everyone bothered to case me on Day 10(some did the previous day, it isn't directed to everyone). I wanted out of the game anyway. The only sad thing about my lynch is that town will get fucked and most likely lose the game.

By all means guys lynch me. Call my reads laughable, bully me and spit on me and lynch me like Jesus.

Then Choutas said, "MP, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up His garments by casting lots.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:RadicalFuzz to put everyone on an even playing field.

Linki: I'm not on the poll Choutas.

If I ever see a marmot again I'll kick it in the stomach

Diiny wrote:Went to sleep, woke up, went to uni cafe and some time during those actions remembered that I don't like it when people 'reset their reads.' I distinctly remember scum sloonei playing that card, and, just as J's doing now, is backing away from previous suspects, using the read reset as his reasoning.

Why was Rad your OH MY GOD YES LET'S LYNCH HIM vote if he gave you these town pangs from the beginning? Why are you no longer even prepared to lynch him today?

Very unnerved.

Even considering your misinterpretation this post reads as a manufactured attack. You know how I play town, and carefully reconsidering each read late in a game is definitely within my "meta". Even scum Sloonei doing that is not meaningful because careful reassessment is his town M.O. It was his effort to match the right meta.

RadicalFuzz wrote:J3, weird question, but could you tell me your cleanest 3 players? Excluding yourself, of course.

Entering this phase I would have said Strawhenge and Choutas. I still need to continue reassessing though. I can't think of a third name that deserves to be mentioned in this post.

Jay, can you stop posting for like 5 hours? I'm counting your votes. :P

I dint recall you ever explicitly wanting to reset your reads or going for a blank slate thing. Of course you go over shit and ISO like mad but my emphasis is on the reset. By all means show me you have done it before as town and I'll stop worrying. Or maybe someone else can vouch for this? But I don't recall you ever resetting, and that plus my experience with the term is unnerving.

How exactly is that manufactured?

Diiny wrote:I dint recall you ever explicitly wanting to reset your reads or going for a blank slate thing. Of course you go over shit and ISO like mad but my emphasis is on the reset. By all means show me you have done it before as town and I'll stop worrying. Or maybe someone else can vouch for this? But I don't recall you ever resetting, and that plus my experience with the term is unnerving.

How exactly is that manufactured?

I've seen mafia Jay twice, but those instances aren't good examples. One was in RYM 86 where he was recruited to mafia, and almost immediately nightkilled by a civilian. The other was in The Syndicate Mafia, where he played as a sock (so did not play as typical Jay), and again was nightkilled fairly early in the game.

So... no idea.

I was kidding Jay, you can keep posting.

Choutas wrote:

Strawhenge wrote:Cast my vote for Choutas for now...And the other two of my top three scumspects are the only other ones on the vote. Way to make me second-guess my entire life, guys.

Let me picture this. I am your second scummiest player at 1 and a half star and MM is the worst with half a star and I take the vote for the day? OK bro.

Tactical voting is a thing. You'd rather someone you thought was bad was lynched over someone you thought was less bad, right?

Do you actually think Strawhenge is being disingenuous?

Diiny wrote:

Choutas wrote:

Strawhenge wrote:Cast my vote for Choutas for now...And the other two of my top three scumspects are the only other ones on the vote. Way to make me second-guess my entire life, guys.

Let me picture this. I am your second scummiest player at 1 and a half star and MM is the worst with half a star and I take the vote for the day? OK bro.

Tactical voting is a thing. You'd rather someone you thought was bad was lynched over someone you thought was less bad, right?

Do you actually think Strawhenge is being disingenuous?

If either of you see a way for me to vote for Metalmarsh, please, by all means.

Jay's posts are going to take forever...

It's taken 2 hours so far, but I'm only on Day 4.

Strawhenge wrote:

Diiny wrote:

Choutas wrote:

Strawhenge wrote:Cast my vote for Choutas for now...And the other two of my top three scumspects are the only other ones on the vote. Way to make me second-guess my entire life, guys.

Let me picture this. I am your second scummiest player at 1 and a half star and MM is the worst with half a star and I take the vote for the day? OK bro.

Tactical voting is a thing. You'd rather someone you thought was bad was lynched over someone you thought was less bad, right?

Do you actually think Strawhenge is being disingenuous?

If either of you see a way for me to vote for Metalmarsh, please, by all means.

Oh god he's off the tally I forgot

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Jay's posts are going to take forever...

It's taken 2 hours so far, but I'm only on Day 4.

Would you believe if I'd told you I'm on it?

(Could still use the double-check, though).

At home from work. Going to answer some questions and make some responses.

Choutas wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:JJJ there's a relationship between you, and several other players. Some are dead now, but I'm pretty sure you established that relationship. I want to know from you why those players.

Coutas, there's no bad accusations there, nor would I want someone to break the rules. Kind of insulted that you think I would do that. Breaking game rules is something I wouldn't do. It hurts the game for everyone, and that's not why we play. Let's think "logically" as you would like. If you were really wanting to bait mafia. Why reveal the bait as bait? If there was actual purpose behind it that could've been used as scumbait, why revoke it? I see it as you going "Oh sheet, this was a bad Idea, so lol jk it was bait." Also, I still don't know what makes those two responses townier. I don't know what about responding to that bait makes them look townier. Elaborate on that. I think this is the 4th time I've asked you that specifically and you haven't answered.

You seem to be overly worried about the case itself. I don't know half of what your previous post is referencing, and I would just like some direction as to what you are responding to.

Also, why do you keep backtracking? I thought I had responded to all inquiry, but I KNOW for a fact that I asked for everyone to use my name in a post if they had questions to ask me questions or if I missed something. How are percentages on the LC lynch relevant to this conversation?

They aren't but you clearly haven't responded to them. You can't accuse me of not responding to your proddings when you clearly have ignored other players. OK let's end that.
You might have a point for the timing of my reveal but if you think I considered Rico as one of my suspects at the time. It yield results to me, it helped Rico get townier points from me for the response. As to why the responses look townie to me it's because a scum wouldn't respond to my post. If a scum came out and said "I think you were targeted" it would be fessing up. He/She would be still and ignore my post. A townie is more likely to claim his towniest read as the possible victim.

bullzeye. More after I'm done catching up.

And you are omitting the option of a scummy scummerdoodle "fessing up?"

Also...

You still haven't acknowledged the fact that bcornett responded to your "who was targeted?" questioning before he died.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think I finally figured out what Doc was trying to convey to me with the whole "why they have in common" and not "what" thing. Was that meant to be a rhetorical point Doc, one that I cannot expound upon publicly but still mull over privately? Is that what you intended of me?

Not really, I was wondering if you had any thoughts on why they had things in common.

Diiny wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:MOTEL ROOM

RADICAL FUZZ

RICOCHET

ROXY

Good

Good

Good

Bad

Surprised to see fuzz listed as good here, wilgy

Fuzz and I are soulmates. There is nothing that he has done this game that surprises me as I explained earlier.

Diiny wrote:Let me get this straight, Wilgy. You:

Had fuzz as good
Flopped on him and considered him a scum read due to unspecified 'mafia interactions', the celebration posts and the 'I wouldn't do that' post, although, for all the terribleness leaking out of that latter wifomy post all wilgy actually said about it was:

Choutas made it a point to say "There is a first for everything." Why? unless there was actual purpose to it?

Which I think is actually a weak as fuck case.

But then a bunch of weird underhanded shit happens that's borderline illegal and he's town again.

I want to get off Dr. Wilgy's Wild Ride.

What? Fuzz vouched for Floyd, (which I could still see him doing as town, because that's the way he is) and that's what set off my scumdar.

His declaration, that made me put him back in most likely townie territory is that he responded to a previous question of "Who do you think the SK is" with JJJ, and I can believe that.

"There is a first for everything." was pointed out, because it was a fallback. A way to not lie. From what I've experienced, players are more comfortable when they don't need to lie so they may purposely (or sometimes completely accidentally and mindlessly) slip in these "OH! I'm not lying now!" fall backs.

plus, that's just a small bit of where my thoughts on Chou come from. I'm not sure why you singled out that bit.

I get the feeling that a majority of my posts aren't being read. Kinda upsets me, but whatever.

I was looking for more stuff on choutas, but couldn't find it. I'll check again after dinner because I was on mobile + at uni.

Strawhenge wrote:Cast my vote for Choutas for now...And the other two of my top three scumspects are the only other ones on the vote. Way to make me second-guess my entire life, guys.

I mean, you were the one to join us...

DrWilgy wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think I finally figured out what Doc was trying to convey to me with the whole "why they have in common" and not "what" thing. Was that meant to be a rhetorical point Doc, one that I cannot expound upon publicly but still mull over privately? Is that what you intended of me?

Not really, I was wondering if you had any thoughts on why they had things in common.

Then I'm still completely at a loss.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think I finally figured out what Doc was trying to convey to me with the whole "why they have in common" and not "what" thing. Was that meant to be a rhetorical point Doc, one that I cannot expound upon publicly but still mull over privately? Is that what you intended of me?

Not really, I was wondering if you had any thoughts on why they had things in common.

Then I'm still completely at a loss.

Ricochet wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Jay's posts are going to take forever...

It's taken 2 hours so far, but I'm only on Day 4.

Would you believe if I'd told you I'm on it?

(Could still use the double-check, though).

Yes I'd believe you.

I don't care either way, as I'm on the west coast.

I know some players who live in Europe prefer the early end-times.

I vote to keep everything the way it is. The late deadlines are good for me and 24 hour days favor anti-town.

NO NO NO NO NO to 24 hour day phases.