[END] Talking Heads Mafia (RYM #90)

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't have any issue with votes being used now -- we just can't afford to fall into complacent tally arrangements that lead to shenanigan-compatible end results 72 hours from now.

METALMARSH89, you've been completely willing to agree with everything I say (or at least acknowledge that I make good points) in recent phases except for the most crucial point of last phase: Choutas as a town read.

I did not agree completely with everything you said. I did agree willingingly (wouldn't have had it any other way) with some of the things you said. And when did you have Choutas as a town read?

Mafia spew review

You supported me on two key reads: Fuzz and Bullzeye (both viable lynches of yesterday). You plopped a vote on Choutas. You've explained why, and essentially given the same reason Russ gave (that Choutas's behavior at EOD was suspicious), a reason that does not inspire me.

[Ricochet]

Wilgy posted this begin of Day 6.

Mac, Matt, Fuzz and Floyd, who did you target last night?

We had a fail kill and no psycho killer. Chances are one of y'all intervined, possibly in both, and y'all should know how. JJJ you should know as well.

I will explain everything as soon as I'm back from the renaissance festival.

JJJ, no beef, got much love for ya.

Two of the people he inquired turned out mafia (with no powers to block or do shit...in theory, Mac could have redirected the SK's kill to the same unkillable target, but I wouldn't put my money on it; for one thing, he then started spewing on Epig being SK...and Epig was killed by the SK...), Matt is dead, only Fuzz is here.

He also says JJJ should know something about this very thing he is pointing at.

He's an SK candidate, so... Would this come off as an SK chatting in the open about whudunit or as genuine investigative stuff?

[Marmot]

I think my play on Day 6 is my best support.

What about your Day 6 play do you stand on?

I think my pursuit of MacDougall looks good for me, even if I also pushed incredibly hard to connect you to him. I believe my vote pattern and my interactions that day make for a solid civilian (or at least anti-mafia) case.

[Marmot]

I don't have any issue with votes being used now -- we just can't afford to fall into complacent tally arrangements that lead to shenanigan-compatible end results 72 hours from now.

METALMARSH89, you've been completely willing to agree with everything I say (or at least acknowledge that I make good points) in recent phases except for the most crucial point of last phase: Choutas as a town read.

I did not agree completely with everything you said. I did agree willingingly (wouldn't have had it any other way) with some of the things you said. And when did you have Choutas as a town read?

Mafia spew review

You supported me on two key reads: Fuzz and Bullzeye (both viable lynches of yesterday). You plopped a vote on Choutas. You've explained why, and essentially given the same reason Russ gave (that Choutas's behavior at EOD was suspicious), a reason that does not inspire me.

I did the legwork to support my suspicion of RadicalFuzz, so don't cut my contributations down to "you supported me". You inspired me to look into him multiple days ago, true, but the initiative was all my own.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Wilgy posted this begin of Day 6.

Mac, Matt, Fuzz and Floyd, who did you target last night?

We had a fail kill and no psycho killer. Chances are one of y'all intervined, possibly in both, and y'all should know how. JJJ you should know as well.

I will explain everything as soon as I'm back from the renaissance festival.

JJJ, no beef, got much love for ya.

Two of the people he inquired turned out mafia (with no powers to block or do shit...in theory, Mac could have redirected the SK's kill to the same unkillable target, but I wouldn't put my money on it; for one thing, he then started spewing on Epig being SK...and Epig was killed by the SK...), Matt is dead, only Fuzz is here.

He also says JJJ should know something about this very thing he is pointing at.

He's an SK candidate, so... Would this come off as an SK chatting in the open about whudunit or as genuine investigative stuff?

In this instance I do know what he was talking about. I don't know what he was talking about later with the "why these players have something in common" thing, but this one I understand.

[Ricochet]

Wilgy posted this begin of Day 6.

Mac, Matt, Fuzz and Floyd, who did you target last night?

We had a fail kill and no psycho killer. Chances are one of y'all intervined, possibly in both, and y'all should know how. JJJ you should know as well.

I will explain everything as soon as I'm back from the renaissance festival.

JJJ, no beef, got much love for ya.

Two of the people he inquired turned out mafia (with no powers to block or do shit...in theory, Mac could have redirected the SK's kill to the same unkillable target, but I wouldn't put my money on it; for one thing, he then started spewing on Epig being SK...and Epig was killed by the SK...), Matt is dead, only Fuzz is here.

He also says JJJ should know something about this very thing he is pointing at.

He's an SK candidate, so... Would this come off as an SK chatting in the open about whudunit or as genuine investigative stuff?

In this instance I do know what he was talking about. I don't know what he was talking about later with the "why these players have something in common" thing, but this one I understand.

And what is to be understood, if I may ask?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think my play on Day 6 is my best support.

What about your Day 6 play do you stand on?

I think my pursuit of MacDougall looks good for me, even if I also pushed incredibly hard to connect you to him. I believe my vote pattern and my interactions that day make for a solid civilian (or at least anti-mafia) case.

You're aware that this detracts from the good look? Should you be?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

And what is to be understood, if I may ask?

Only that Doc and I have something in common in this game that is known publicly.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Town Evidence - Near unanimous townreads on me for large parts of the game

You don't think there's anything inspiring in your own posts?

[Ricochet]

And what is to be understood, if I may ask?

Only that Doc and I have something in common in this game that is known publicly.

I very well understood that, Mr. Assistant. I was asking about "the stff Wilgy and you should know about", that he was referencing, and you said you understood at that time.

What about my question about Wilgy posing those questions per se? Genuine or non?

[Marmot]

I think my play on Day 6 is my best support.

What about your Day 6 play do you stand on?

I think my pursuit of MacDougall looks good for me, even if I also pushed incredibly hard to connect you to him. I believe my vote pattern and my interactions that day make for a solid civilian (or at least anti-mafia) case.

You're aware that this detracts from the good look? Should you be?

Why does this detract from my good look when I believed your behavior to be suspicious?

And should I be what?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

And what is to be understood, if I may ask?

Only that Doc and I have something in common in this game that is known publicly.

I very well understood that, Mr. Assistant. I was asking about "the stff Wilgy and you should know about", that he was referencing, and you said you understood at that time.

What about my question about Wilgy posing those questions per se? Genuine or non?

That's what's I'm saying. I have no issue with any component of that Wilgy post.

But it's only one post.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think my play on Day 6 is my best support.

What about your Day 6 play do you stand on?

I think my pursuit of MacDougall looks good for me, even if I also pushed incredibly hard to connect you to him. I believe my vote pattern and my interactions that day make for a solid civilian (or at least anti-mafia) case.

You're aware that this detracts from the good look? Should you be?

Why does this detract from my good look when I believed your behavior to be suspicious?

And should I be what?

It's a caveat, mate. You stated your good look and qualified it with an "even if..."

Everything following "even if" is by the nature of that sentence takes something away from the words before it.

"I love to spend the day outside even if it rains sometimes."

"I think Sunday is great even if it means there's work tomorrow."

"I am going to enjoy this Strongbow cider even if it tastes like piss."

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hunting Mac and reading into mafia interactions between the dead and the ones still out there, until my brain melts, should be the two things to place me into town camp, I'd say.

Are you willing to replace "Mac" with "Long Con, Black Rock, and Floyd" and then consider that this sentence applies to me too?

[Ricochet]

Well, Wilgy asked me something that I didn't understood too well and now it seems he's gone away. So far it's us three talking. However, it's almost 3am, so soon enough it'll be just you two.

But the thought that came to my mind just now is whether we should consider if any player putting low effort into this debate might in fact be a baddie (mafia or SK) tricking us into turning things on all sides, whilst he just votes alongside us, if it suits him...

I know this is pretty much the opposite of how the Champs final lylo trick was done (by none other than grandmaster JJJ here)...actually, let's do the opposite scenario, as well! What if a big talker is the snakecharmer in this situation?

Anyway, these are just thoughts. I don't have much time and will left to process much tonight.

I forgot that Straw's death also means he got suppresed from ever developing further thoughts on his MM is bad m'kay theory - if he ever planned to, that is :slightrolleye:. This makes me believe either MM has pumpkin-sized balls or it's a fine smear job by the real SK.

[Marmot]

That's great Jay.

What have you deduced from this caveat? In your opinion, do you believe that situation I mentioned is my only saving grace as a civilian and that there is no other facet of my play that compares to that moment, which itself is already only a glass-half-full type of good anyway?

Do you not appreciate honesty?

[Ricochet]

Hunting Mac and reading into mafia interactions between the dead and the ones still out there, until my brain melts, should be the two things to place me into town camp, I'd say.

Are you willing to replace "Mac" with "Long Con, Black Rock, and Floyd" and then consider that this sentence applies to me too?

Yes, on paper, it can apply to you, as in you can use it as your town evidence.

Did you use it, though?

...Oh wait.

Interestingly, this angle was the only one of the three in which you didn't include a "For me:" statement.

[Marmot]

I forgot that Straw's death also means he got suppresed from ever developing further thoughts on his MM is bad m'kay theory - if he ever planned to, that is :slightrolleye:. This makes me believe either MM has pumpkin-sized balls or it's a fine smear job by the real SK.

It's only a fine smear-job if you're willing to lynch me after that flip. Are you?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

That's great Jay.

What have you deduced from this caveat? In your opinion, do you believe that situation I mentioned is my only saving grace as a civilian and that there is no other facet of my play that compares to that moment, which itself is already only a glass-half-full type of good anyway?

Do you not appreciate honesty?

I've deduced that you think your treatment of Mac on Day 6 should reflect well on you (applicable regardless of your alignment) and also that you grant that your effort to link Mac with me takes something away from that good look.

Because I'm town. And it's a bad link.

Honesty is great, but I think you may have puked a little more into that post than you meant to.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hunting Mac and reading into mafia interactions between the dead and the ones still out there, until my brain melts, should be the two things to place me into town camp, I'd say.

Are you willing to replace "Mac" with "Long Con, Black Rock, and Floyd" and then consider that this sentence applies to me too?

Yes, on paper, it can apply to you, as in you can use it as your town evidence.

Did you use it, though?

...Oh wait.

Interestingly, this angle was the only one of the three in which you didn't include a "For me:" statement.

I already answered that exact question not long before, in a post addressed to you.

I'm trying my damnest to connect with a town read here to promote cooperation.

[Ricochet]

I forgot that Straw's death also means he got suppresed from ever developing further thoughts on his MM is bad m'kay theory - if he ever planned to, that is :slightrolleye:. This makes me believe either MM has pumpkin-sized balls or it's a fine smear job by the real SK.

It's only a fine smear-job if you're willing to lynch me after that flip. Are you?

It's a smear job if it makes the civilians mislynch the smeared person.

As for you question, I don't know.

Wait, after what flip? Straw didn't flip.

[Marmot]

JaggedJimmyJay

I'll be back with my ISO sometime tonight or tomorrow.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

JaggedJimmyJay

I'll be back with my ISO sometime tonight or tomorrow.

Underwhelming OMGUS. Answer to the suspicion I've cast upon you.

[Marmot]

I forgot that Straw's death also means he got suppresed from ever developing further thoughts on his MM is bad m'kay theory - if he ever planned to, that is :slightrolleye:. This makes me believe either MM has pumpkin-sized balls or it's a fine smear job by the real SK.

It's only a fine smear-job if you're willing to lynch me after that flip. Are you?

It's a smear job if it makes the civilians mislynch the smeared person.

As for you question, I don't know.

Wait, after what flip? Straw didn't flip.

Wrong term.

[Marmot]

JaggedJimmyJay

I'll be back with my ISO sometime tonight or tomorrow.

Underwhelming OMGUS. Answer to the suspicion I've cast upon you.

I've already answered, what else are you looking for?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

JaggedJimmyJay

I'll be back with my ISO sometime tonight or tomorrow.

Underwhelming OMGUS. Answer to the suspicion I've cast upon you.

I've already answered, what else are you looking for?

An answer that isn't a question.

[Marmot]

You haven't asked any questions, so answers that aren't questions are difficult to return.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

You haven't asked any questions, so answers that aren't questions are difficult to return.

No.

I made an accusation. You should be able to explain yourself without return-firing questions.

[Ricochet]

Hunting Mac and reading into mafia interactions between the dead and the ones still out there, until my brain melts, should be the two things to place me into town camp, I'd say.

Are you willing to replace "Mac" with "Long Con, Black Rock, and Floyd" and then consider that this sentence applies to me too?

Yes, on paper, it can apply to you, as in you can use it as your town evidence.

Did you use it, though?

...Oh wait.

Interestingly, this angle was the only one of the three in which you didn't include a "For me:" statement.

I already answered that exact question not long before, in a post addressed to you.

I'm trying my damnest to connect with a town read here to promote cooperation.

Ah yes. So not resisting looming lynch, wanting your flip to help the town further and to leave a legacy in reads.

That's fine. Again, on paper, it's credible.

You also said that Day would have been a "very different story if I'm mafia". Can you elaborate on this mirror angle yourself, please?

My problem with Day 7 exonerating you simply because you didn't fight the wave hitting you is that Day 7 ended up with a third wave that didn't target you or Floyd anymore. You could have benefited from that pretty much regardless of your actual alignment.

Seaside wagon was pushed into a snowball, at least according to the vote order, by Epig, then motel (ahem townie according to you), MM, and then finally you and then four more others.

No offense to Epig, because he did very inspired hunting otherwise, but if this seaside wagon turns out to have been mostly civ-pushed, it was a very costly moment to lose focus and start a third bonfire. Even costly for the civs' entire game, I'm afraid. Pretty much the same mixed feelings about what he started, if mafia then jumped on it significantly, all the same (candidates for that are still plenty, right now, which simply sucks: motel, you, Diiny, Russ).

[Marmot]

Honesty is great, but I think you may have puked a little more into that post than you meant to.

If you are talking about this, I did intend to say what I said. I'm not afraid to acknowledge what I have done wrong, and I'm willing to point it out.

[Ricochet]

Well, you two are cooperating.

I'm going to bed.

Diiny, can you talk, can you play, are you here? Type words and submit for yes.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Ah yes. So not resisting looming lynch, wanting your flip to help the town further and to leave a legacy in reads.

That's fine. Again, on paper, it's credible.

I don't care about "on paper". We have to stop waffling with this stuff. I'm calling you a straight up town read right despite having numerous reasons not to. That doesn't mean you're exonerated permanently, it means I am entirely willing to work with you on Day 11 despite whatever misgivings might still exist in my head. That is cooperation.

You also said that Day would have been a "very different story if I'm mafia". Can you elaborate on this mirror angle yourself, please?

In the champs finale my strategy as a mafioso on the verge of being lynched was exactly the opposite. I stopped posting.

I didn't post less. I posted none. I shut it all down. I went dark. There's no reason for a mafioso about to be lynched (and I really did think I was dead until the very late stretch of Day 7) to continue producing "reads" that can only be used against team mates after the flip. It's unnecessary spew that I would simply not provide.

My problem with Day 7 exonerating you simply because you didn't fight the wave hitting you is that Day 7 ended up with a third wave that didn't target you or Floyd anymore. You could have benefited from that pretty much regardless of your actual alignment.

That was definitely a surprise to me. I regret joining it instead of promoting the Floyd counterwagon, but at that point I was willing to work with Epi and I thought he raised a good point when Choutas's rainbow didn't line up with his pseudo-info dump.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Honesty is great, but I think you may have puked a little more into that post than you meant to.

If you are talking about this, I did intend to say what I said. I'm not afraid to acknowledge what I have done wrong, and I'm willing to point it out.

There's the rub. Why do you think it was wrong to aggressively link me to Mac?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Well, you two are cooperating.

I don't mean we should spend the whole phase playing nice.

[Marmot]

Honesty is great, but I think you may have puked a little more into that post than you meant to.

If you are talking about this, I did intend to say what I said. I'm not afraid to acknowledge what I have done wrong, and I'm willing to point it out.

There's the rub. Why do you think it was wrong to aggressively link me to Mac?

Because I'm attaching one read to another, almost regardless of your other input to the game. I did not suspect you at the time for anything other than your read of MacDougall, who I suspected was mafia, and actually even said at one point that you were a more suspicious player than Mac because of it.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Honesty is great, but I think you may have puked a little more into that post than you meant to.

If you are talking about this, I did intend to say what I said. I'm not afraid to acknowledge what I have done wrong, and I'm willing to point it out.

There's the rub. Why do you think it was wrong to aggressively link me to Mac?

Because I'm attaching one read to another, almost regardless of your other input to the game. I did not suspect you at the time for anything other than your read of MacDougall, who I suspected was mafia, and actually even said at one point that you were a more suspicious player than Mac because of it.

Could you please reference this post?

[Marmot]

What's your goal here Jay?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What's your goal here Jay?

Why on earth would I broadcast that? You've seen how I play this game, make an educated guess. I've given you a fair request, could you please reference the post you mentioned?

[Ricochet]

Ah yes. So not resisting looming lynch, wanting your flip to help the town further and to leave a legacy in reads.

That's fine. Again, on paper, it's credible.

I don't care about "on paper". We have to stop waffling with this stuff. I'm calling you a straight up town read right despite having numerous reasons not to. That doesn't mean you're exonerated permanently, it means I am entirely willing to work with you on Day 11 despite whatever misgivings might still exist in my head. That is cooperation.

You also said that Day would have been a "very different story if I'm mafia". Can you elaborate on this mirror angle yourself, please?

In the champs finale my strategy as a mafioso on the verge of being lynched was exactly the opposite. I stopped posting.

I didn't post less. I posted none. I shut it all down. I went dark. There's no reason for a mafioso about to be lynched (and I really did think I was dead until the very late stretch of Day 7) to continue producing "reads" that can only be used against team mates after the flip. It's unnecessary spew that I would simply not provide.

My problem with Day 7 exonerating you simply because you didn't fight the wave hitting you is that Day 7 ended up with a third wave that didn't target you or Floyd anymore. You could have benefited from that pretty much regardless of your actual alignment.

That was definitely a surprise to me. I regret joining it instead of promoting the Floyd counterwagon, but at that point I was willing to work with Epi and I thought he raised a good point when Choutas's rainbow didn't line up with his pseudo-info dump.

First part: I'll get back to you on that "reading you town despite plenty of reasons not to". Sorry I can't be more decisive than that.

Second part: Feels like too much WIFOM: "I would always reproduce my mafia strategy when mafia". Also, Too Much Work is not encountered as a valid suss reason or a mafia tactic, for no reason.

Then again, I remember a confirmed civ (Choutas) reading you like that as well: baddie JJJ would never put this much work.

I'll consider it.

Third part: Understood, but it doesn't really change much about that Day's wagons dynamic and how you benefitted from it, period, town or no town. Epig softened on you, got pinged by seaside and stuff concerning him, wagon on him formed and, from a pure statistical viewpoint considering seaside's wagon, the Day went to shit.

If you feel that mafia jumped on that snowball, and you're not it, then give me some possible interpretations. Motel, MM, Diiny, Russ. Which seems more likely?

[Ricochet]

EPWOP: considering seaside's flip*, not wagon

[Marmot]

What's your goal here Jay?

Why on earth would I broadcast that? You've seen how I play this game, make an educated guess. I've given you a fair request, could you please reference the post you mentioned?

I'm looking for it, and asking you meantime.

I know you're perfectly capable of painting someone bad by making them case themselves, and I'm checking to see if that is the case here. I have every right to ask you a question, so don't sound so aghast.

I also know you're probably probing for reactions. I'd rather it be this possibility.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If you feel that mafia jumped on that snowball, and you're not it, then give me some possible interpretations. Motel, MM, Diiny, Russ. Which seems more likely?

I'm returning to my spew reviews now so I'm sure I'll have an answer when I'm finished.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What's your goal here Jay?

Why on earth would I broadcast that? You've seen how I play this game, make an educated guess. I've given you a fair request, could you please reference the post you mentioned?

I'm looking for it, and asking you meantime.

I know you're perfectly capable of painting someone bad by making them case themselves, and I'm checking to see if that is the case here. I have every right to ask you a question, so don't sound so aghast.

I also know you're probably probing for reactions. I'd rather it be this possibility.

I'm not asking you to case yourself. You mentioned a post that has relevance to our current conversation and I've asked you to retrieve it so I can see it in proper context and decide what emotions it inspires in me. I could probably find it myself, but you know your ISO better than I do.

I might be doing one of those things.

[Diiny]

'sup. Catching up, seeing what's what. Anything you wanna shove in my face?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

'sup. Catching up, seeing what's what. Anything you wanna shove in my face?

A few people are considering you as a possible serial killer. I'm among them. I think you've been just far away enough from the woodchipper discussions that you've never had to do anything dangerous. Your content is also drooping into drooptown lately. You also made no posts on Night 5 when the SK didn't show up in the host posts.

[Marmot]

What's your goal here Jay?

Why on earth would I broadcast that? You've seen how I play this game, make an educated guess. I've given you a fair request, could you please reference the post you mentioned?

I'm looking for it, and asking you meantime.

I know you're perfectly capable of painting someone bad by making them case themselves, and I'm checking to see if that is the case here. I have every right to ask you a question, so don't sound so aghast.

I also know you're probably probing for reactions. I'd rather it be this possibility.

I'm not asking you to case yourself. You mentioned a post that has relevance to our current conversation and I've asked you to retrieve it so I can see it in proper context and decide what emotions it inspires in me. I could probably find it myself, but you know your ISO better than I do.

I might be doing one of those things.

This is the post I am referring to.

I did not actually say I'd rather vote you. I thought I did, and I know at one point I considered the idea during the Day 6 phase.

[Marmot]

I also got a B+ on my MacDougall interactions.

[Diiny]

'sup. Catching up, seeing what's what. Anything you wanna shove in my face?

A few people are considering you as a possible serial killer. I'm among them. I think you've been just far away enough from the woodchipper discussions that you've never had to do anything dangerous. Your content is also drooping into drooptown lately. You also made no posts on Night 5 when the SK didn't show up in the host posts.

My content's dropped, yes.

But do you really think I'm playing it safe? I ended up voting alone yesterday. And look at the day 1 that nearly got me lynched by these syndicate heathens. I've agreed with cases as they've been presented both because they're good cases that have taken my eye and because I haven't had time to do many proper iso exercises, kinda thanks to the thread size.

Plus I've continued to shit on brian whilst nobody else did. I mean, that doesn't look great for me but I don't see how you can call that playing it safe.

I think you're just used to seeing me more abrasive/active.

[Diiny]

Reaffirming my FUZZ vote for now.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This is the post I am referring to.

I did not actually say I'd rather vote you. I thought I did, and I know at one point I considered the idea during the Day 6 phase.

Thanks. I'll think about it -- you've put into unique words the standard Mac/Jay link that I am sure it still a hangup for many people. Do you understand why I felt this was a discussion worth pursuing?