Mortal Kombat Mafia [ENDGAME]

[Glorfindel]

For the sake of posterity the bolded comment above is misleading, Jay. I DID answer the question you posed in that game. My answer stood regardless of my alignment and WILL be the position to which I will return for any game I play here at this site in future. It just so happened that you were right that game. You could just as easily have been wrong. Having said that, I enjoyed that game immensely and am convinced that you can never truly appreciate just how much I agonised over not being able to say those three words (I am Town) to you.

you should write scripts for romantic dramas

I’ll take that as a compliment, Kyle. Thank you.

[speedchuck]

Day 4 - Key take-aways:

Spoiler: show

Quin do you consider yourself to be a primary suspect?

I do wonder what the point of this question was. Didn't get much out of the Kylemii read otherwise. Tone-wise he's meta town.

linki: I have no idea WTHF made is talking about.

@JaggedJimmyJay Was the sloon read your hot take?

Chuckles is back and I’m confused by this post above - specifically his remark about “Tone-wise he’s meta town”. I can’t tell whether he’s referring to Kyle or Quin? @Speedchuck

Kyle.

I have other posts about Quin, and my townread on Quin comes from stuff other than tone. But if you haven't gotten to that, you will.

[Sloonei]

I think it might be vote consolidation time.

we have 21 hours left.

so you're saying we should wait

I'm saying there's no rush, but we should constantly be working toward a consensus.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I'd echo Mac but the explanation of his scum Sloonei read went in one eye and out the other so I'm not sure I even care.

@Sloonei your thoughts on it?

Jimmy's Nutella case is interesting to me because it's basically the same as my case on her early on in Mountains and my conclusion was wrong. Also, I don't see what he sees anyway. Opposite contrast with opposite conclusions.

Kinda feel like I'm dead ended on Jimmy atm anyway. Made looks worse but I'll let him talk before I decide where to move.

I don't know what "it" is here.

I really should have clarified after several linkis.

What do you think of Made's case on you?

He reads as authentic to me. He's not latching onto any traditional or easy arguments that I could see being made against me, which suggests to me these are genuine thoughts of his.

What kinda transitional or easy arguments?

[Sloonei]

I'd echo Mac but the explanation of his scum Sloonei read went in one eye and out the other so I'm not sure I even care.

@Sloonei your thoughts on it?

Jimmy's Nutella case is interesting to me because it's basically the same as my case on her early on in Mountains and my conclusion was wrong. Also, I don't see what he sees anyway. Opposite contrast with opposite conclusions.

Kinda feel like I'm dead ended on Jimmy atm anyway. Made looks worse but I'll let him talk before I decide where to move.

I don't know what "it" is here.

I really should have clarified after several linkis.

What do you think of Made's case on you?

He reads as authentic to me. He's not latching onto any traditional or easy arguments that I could see being made against me, which suggests to me these are genuine thoughts of his.

What kinda transitional or easy arguments?

He could say that I'm fence-sitting or trying to push various easy mislynches or trying to gain townie cred by inflating my post count early on, to name a few. Instead he's picking out specific actions of mine which apparently don't sit well with him and (eventually) he managed to articulate his thoughts in a way that I can understand.

[Made]

[mention]Jackofhearts2005[/mention] ,
Here are your reads, I hope they serve you well.

1. The conversational tone of his post generally lead me to read him more closely. Please don't make me quote literally every post he's made this game to justify this point.
2. Reads like Me/Radfuzz read last game. Super friendly and nice and seeming hesitant to step on toes including my own seen here as well as quin seen here and kyle seen here and here
3. this post (among others) make me feel better about you.
As it stands Made would need further convincing to vote Jack today

Jack, what were you looking for while trying to determine if I was bad based on my reads of you as well as other players, and did you find it?

Regards,
Made's Secretary

[Made]

2a. To clarify, I don't think being friendly is bad, it's just so far I'm not liking the implications of your friendliness in your reading of the game should you be bad

[Sloonei]

[mention]Jackofhearts2005[/mention] read me at this very moment, go go go.

[Glorfindel]

Day 5 - Key take-aways:

Jesus Christ guys. 5 pages on day 0. Stooooooop.

I'm going to prove to you that Sloonei is bad this game. I have a real good feeling about that. He is bad an I'm a doctor!

Based on what I’ve read so far, best of luck with that, Sir!

Not a great deal to report this page. Elements of off topic and flavour discussion.

Nutella joins the game with a handful or superficial reads but interestingly makes no reference to Jay other than to remark about his poll theorising - otherwise, looks harmless enough.

Kyle is still feeling somewhat stilted and awkward but his content is improving (i.e. his hypothesising about Made’s previous peculiar behaviour).

Spoiler: show

note, this is the first game I remember ever seeing slooni take any sort of heat. very interesting to see tbh.
nywhozies day zero rainbow cuz y not

Quin
Wilgy
Kyle
Eloh
Nutella
SpeedChuck
JJJ
Jack
Slooni
MacDougle


Dave

linki- move kyle to top of list and JJJ to above speedchuck

The page ends with this reads list from Made - kinda makes me wonder if we’re playing the same game. Quin his strongest Town? Wilgy second after having posted twice? Jay and Sloonei bringing up the rear? MacDougall rock bottom after only a couple of posts???

[Jackofhearts2005]

Jackofhearts2005 read me at this very moment, go go go.

Town.

[Jackofhearts2005]

The idea of reading you bad for fence sitting is both traditional and hilariously wrong.

[Sloonei]

The idea of reading you bad for fence sitting is both traditional and hilariously wrong.

It's an accusation I've had to respond to in about half the games I've ever played.
Care to elaborate of your read on me?

[Jackofhearts2005]

The idea of reading you bad for fence sitting is both traditional and hilariously wrong.

It's an accusation I've had to respond to in about half the games I've ever played.
Care to elaborate of your read on me?

You look like standard good guy Sloonei to me.

[Sloonei]

The idea of reading you bad for fence sitting is both traditional and hilariously wrong.

It's an accusation I've had to respond to in about half the games I've ever played.
Care to elaborate of your read on me?

You look like standard good guy Sloonei to me.

This is weak. I'm not compelled to move my vote off of you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Sloonbeard, can you summarize your suspicion of Jack?

[Jackofhearts2005]

Jack, what were you looking for while trying to determine if I was bad based on my reads of you as well as other players, and did you find it?

Regards,
Made's Secretary

I was looking for something that made sense to me so I could tell if it was genuine or not. Plus, just generally trying to get a feel for you.

Not really. I mean, you keep saying essentially "A is true, therefore B" and I don't disagree with you that A is true. I just don't get the jump to B. Sometimes I'm not even sure what B is supposed to be.

You say I'm being conversational and nice and it's implied this makes you think I'm bad but I don't know why. Another post makes you feel better about me but I can't tell why that post makes you think that.

I don't remember being this far away from your train of thought last time we played together but I think one of us died early.

You're clearly putting forth a lot of effort so that's a good look. I wouldn't expect a baddie to make the posts you're making.

[Jackofhearts2005]

The idea of reading you bad for fence sitting is both traditional and hilariously wrong.

It's an accusation I've had to respond to in about half the games I've ever played.
Care to elaborate of your read on me?

You look like standard good guy Sloonei to me.

This is weak. I'm not compelled to move my vote off of you.

[Sloonei]

Sloonbeard, can you summarize your suspicion of Jack?

Yes, but first I need to finish summarizing why this damn Master's program needs to accept me.

[Sloonei]

The idea of reading you bad for fence sitting is both traditional and hilariously wrong.

It's an accusation I've had to respond to in about half the games I've ever played.
Care to elaborate of your read on me?

You look like standard good guy Sloonei to me.

To this post, I'll say that Jack is the player in this game with the most reason to be paranoid about my scum game. My only completely successful scum performance in recent memory was the game in which Jack and I were introduced to each other (Season 3 preliminary game on MU). He's repeatedly brought this experience up when reading me in the past. He certainly has a more complete meta-read of me now that we've played a handful of games together, but I still expect him to be more cautious of me than other players. For him to offer a shrugged Day 1 town read of me with no real substance is weaksauce.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Sloonei, in this very game I have lamented my lack of understanding of your scum game and a need to reread Champs 2016.

Just because you fooled me once doesn't mean I'm going to tunnel on you without reason. As you can see from my handling of Quin, I'm trying to buck my bad suspicion tendencies, not lean into them.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Besides, the request was "Read me right now. Go!"

You ask for a gth, you get a gth, not a novel.

[Sloonei]

Sloonei, in this very game I have lamented my lack of understanding of your scum game and a need to reread Champs 2016.

Just because you fooled me once doesn't mean I'm going to tunnel on you without reason. As you can see from my handling of Quin, I'm trying to buck my bad suspicion tendencies, not lean into them.

Besides, the request was "Read me right now. Go!"

You ask for a gth, you get a gth, not a novel.

I've not been given any reason to believe your read of me is genuine in this game. I don't expect or encourage you to tunnel me, but I also don't expect you to call me a townie and then shrug when I ask why.

[Sloonei]

I say we lynch Quin now so I don't have room to tunnel on him later.

First of all, I don't know how we all feel about joke suspicions like this, but I can see badiness manifesting itself in a post like this one. In the absence of an authentic early game read, Jack presents an obvious joke target as an obvious joke. Hm. This is not something which factored into my scum read, but when I opened his ISO this post was staring me in the face.

Also, Sloonei is a lock civilian and I'm done sorting his alignment for the remainder of the game.

Sloonei needs to be mafia at some point so I can actually understand his playstyle instead of just going "Sloonei looks like town to me, as usual." (except when we're tunneling on different players and I get to tinfoiling that he's defending my bad suspects to go after his bad suspects but that only happened once)

Or I could just go reread Champs 2016 and find out what I missed.

[/borderline OT] [/overly meta]

[overly meta]

Jimmy, what do you look like when you're bad? You maintain that Epi catching you in Mountains was broken clocking, yeah?

[counting down the seconds until someone decides this kinda thing makes me bad]

Here's the post Jack alluded to a moment ago. It did not sit well with me for reasons my distracted mind could not articulate. I feel like there is potential TMI leaking out of here. I've highlighted where the leak occurs. There seems to be an implicit acceptance of my towniness in this game here, but it's Day 1 (technically this was Day 0) and Jack shouldn't know my alignment.

None of my questions were particularly important. I'm more just feeling you out atm.

In my initial skim of the Jay/Jack dialogue, this was the post I liked least. It gives the impression that Jack is asking directionless questions, and he knows they're directionless. which is interesting, because as I am scrolling through his ISO now I can make that observation of a number of his posts. Observe:

Spoiler: show

i will say that at the very fucking least made seems to be playing vastly different than he did in vocaroo mafia

You're cursing a lot for a Kyle.

What's the difference?

That said

@novaselinenever

Gimmie a read on somebody.

@MacDougall

Pick out a baddie and I'll help you lynch them.

I don't feel like any of these posts resulted in any meaningful development of Jack's read of the game. Directionless

Spoiler: show

Jack: What do you look like when you're bad.
Jimmy: Like this.
Jack: Like now?
Jimmy: I don't think what I linked to is representative of bad me.

No, fuck that. Anyone is free to look at my Bravo game and make face value comparisons. That's not what I am talking about. You're making a specific comparison about you which must inherently rely upon Bravo having known who Kilo was to make any sense. This "subconscious" thing is bullshit.

This is the post where I decided Jay was town, and enhanced my doubts about Jack. He seems to be running in circles around Jay in a dodgy sort of way, and his playful gif response seems to be an acknowledgment that his primary motive is antagonism rather than uncertainty about Jay's role. The argument he tried to make was bogus, he got called out for it, and he laughed about it. I can see this being a baddie trying to look casual. But none of this exchange looks like an earnest attempt to get a read on Jay. I mean, in this post he had asked for examples of scum Jay and was linked directly to Bravo's post history in Phenon 2, but then asked this:

You were Bravo is Phenon, right?

He asked for examples, was given examples, but did not examine them. Yuck.

*Vote Jimmy*

Most likely to switch to Made or Kyle.

Not voting Quin, Sloonei, Speed, Nutella.

Already talked about why I dislike this post. The vote appears weak and I don't really see where the scum read of Jay comes from based on the lengthy exchange those two had earlier. I said earlier that this vote seems to lack conviction. That's because he immediately follows the vote with two other subjects who might be receiving his Day 1 vote (if I had more time right now, I'd also be getting into his case against Kyle. I encourage somebody else to do that, because I'm not in love with it).

Then there's his read of me which we've just been talking about. It doesn't feel authentic.

[nutella]

nutella, a question for you:

In Mountain Mafia, you opened the game with a perspective of just do it on Day 1, allowing yourself to play "fast-and-loose" and voting as your whims inspired. Example

In this game you seem to be playing from a more timid, uncertain vantage point. You played very well in the mountains game and had a lot of success. Why do you think you've changed in this regard?

I did say I was going to try to vary my style more each game, lol. But yeah I do feel kind of back to my old waffly, flip-floppy, unsure-of-anything ways. Idk, haven't found my footing in this game yet, it's a bit bigger and more intimidating than Mountains and I haven't been in the same mood to play fast-and-loose like I did then (and even in that game it only lasted for the first couple days), plus I've been doing stuff irl and not thinking much about the game. I would throw a starter vote on someone just for kicks but I haven't even felt that strongly enough about anyone for more than a hot minute.

Part of me wants to follow Sloonei for all the rest of my days and second-guess my civ read of Jack, so I might consider that, but if I learned anything from Mountains it's that Sloonei isn't always right even when he's 99% confident in a case.

[nutella]

Nah you know what screw it, I'm standing by my previous list and throwing a vote on LC. He's not doing his thang.

[nutella]

Oh that's a disgusting spread.


Nutella, on the other hand, is a most delectable spread.

[Sloonei]

if I learned anything from Mountains it's that Sloonei isn't always right even when he's 99% confident in a case.

I don't know what you are talking about, I am without fault.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

nutella sounds genuine.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Glorfindel

Sloonei
Kylemii

speedchuck
Made
lapluie
Quin
nutella
Simon
TonyStarkPrime
Elohcin
MacDougall

birdwithteeth11
Dom
Gumshoe

Dave
DrWilgy
Marmot
novaselinenever
Jackofhearts2005
Long Con

If you've questions, give 'em to me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I voted Long Con again.

He answered that, it's because I haven't contributed anything to the game. It's not because I'm bad, it's because I have nothing to say at this time. Only one thing has triggered me as suspicious, and it's Made's player salad a few posts back, asking like 10 people a different quick question. I'll vote for Made for now. Other than that, not much has pulled me into this game, just a lot of huffing and puffing that doesn't much strike me as particularly civ or bad.

I can understand and respect a desire to relax early in a game after his recent engagements with Epignosis. I struggle to believe though that the only thing in this thread he felt was worth his discussion was that Made post. Day 1 or not, we're over 700 posts in this thread.

[Sloonei]

Is there more to be said about why Long Con is the most compelling suspect?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Is there more to be said about why Long Con is the most compelling suspect?

I don't know that I'd call him the "most compelling" suspect. However, if I take my orange reads and remove the two first-timers as well as Jack**, I'm left with Wilgy, Marmot, and Long Con. The former two have given little reason for civilian credit, and I already lost interest in the one positive note I made about Wilgy earlier. They're also the sorts of players though who cannot reliably be read in that way, because they don't tend to accumulate civilian credit when they're civilians. Long Con is the exception, a player who I'd expect to have done something in this game by now that'd make him more readily readable.

**Jack is a candidate I would consider lynching. Before I continue down that tunnel however I want to see what he does with the case you compiled.

[Kylemii]

I agree with a lot of the points Sloonei made about Jack, the evolution of his read on me felt non organic and it seems like several of his posts may signify a superficial approach towards scum hunting.

I'm interested in seeing his response.

[Kylemii]

I also get the suspicion on LC. I usually expect LC to have more thoughts on things. A lot of stuff has happened that should be read-worthy other than Made's salad questions.

his post ummmm.... this one, under the cut:

Spoiler: show

And, JJJ, I appreciate the token attempt to squeeze me a little with your vote, but you might as well try it somewhere else, because I'm most likely going to play how I'm going to play. My early game has been abysmal lately, and that last game really drained a lot of my Mafia passion away, so I'm going to participate where I can and not try to force it.

reads to me as fairly genuine. I can see how LC might be burnt out by early game mafia stuff after mountain mafia, and maybe also Chicka Chicka? I can also see why it would make him feel less engaged in this game.

[Kylemii]

mafia-fatigue is also not an exclusive emotion for any particular faction, but I do believe LC that it is at least in part to blame for his apparent lack of zest for this game.

[Quin]

I've decided 3J is likely good because he looked into my off-topic content (I have an unreliable internet connection right now) to form a read on me. I don't believe scum would want to fabricate that.

i meant to submit this like an hour ago but i forgot and went out oops

[MacDougall]

I've decided 3J is likely good because he looked into my off-topic content (I have an unreliable internet connection right now) to form a read on me. I don't believe scum would want to fabricate that.

i meant to submit this like an hour ago but i forgot and went out oops

Really? Jimmy and I have similar tendencies and reading into ot posts is something I love doing either way. I don't think that is a good reason for giving him a town read at all.

I am civ reading him but not without some reservations about some of his case making.

I really don't like the the way you phrased it either. It's non committal and also relatively unprovoked. The timing between him announcing he had a civ read on you and this post is just long enough for me to feel like it's an attempt to buddy to him without getting sprung as such.

[MacDougall]

mafia-fatigue is also not an exclusive emotion for any particular faction, but I do believe LC that it is at least in part to blame for his apparent lack of zest for this game.

A very easy and non controversial comment here. Reads like a mafia player making a future credit civ read on a player they know isn't bad.

[MacDougall]

Is there more to be said about why Long Con is the most compelling suspect?

I don't agree with it. He hasn't done near enough to be the most compelling suspect. He is null on my radar.

[MacDougall]

Personally I would like to ultimately see quin lynched. I feel he is the most compelling lynch and given the volume he has posted if the only good reason anyone has to refute the bad stuff is that he would probably not post as much as a mafia player with bad internet well I disagree and that's an awful reason.

Jimmy. If you were a mafia player who had bad internet and were one of the few players looking lynchable would you post with less frequency than if you were town with bad internet? I feel entirely the opposite and having really thought about it I really question the nature of the analysis from you. Bad look.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Personally I would like to ultimately see quin lynched. I feel he is the most compelling lynch and given the volume he has posted if the only good reason anyone has to refute the bad stuff is that he would probably not post as much as a mafia player with bad internet well I disagree and that's an awful reason.

Jimmy. If you were a mafia player who had bad internet and were one of the few players looking lynchable would you post with less frequency than if you were town with bad internet? I feel entirely the opposite and having really thought about it I really question the nature of the analysis from you. Bad look.

I would probably find a public place with wi-fi and post from the restroom stalls. I don't give a shit what I would do. Quin is not me. That also wasn't the only reason I changed my mind about Quin. Go read my posts and then tell me how bad they look.

[MacDougall]

I just had a quick read of kyle's iso and I am dropping him to a suspect. I would support his lynch. He had utilised a lot of tactics I employ when mafia. Focus on mechanisms. Lots of fluffiness. Lots of civ reads and de-escalation and very little active accusations have come from him.

Who is bad Kyle?

[MacDougall]

Personally I would like to ultimately see quin lynched. I feel he is the most compelling lynch and given the volume he has posted if the only good reason anyone has to refute the bad stuff is that he would probably not post as much as a mafia player with bad internet well I disagree and that's an awful reason.

Jimmy. If you were a mafia player who had bad internet and were one of the few players looking lynchable would you post with less frequency than if you were town with bad internet? I feel entirely the opposite and having really thought about it I really question the nature of the analysis from you. Bad look.

I would probably find a public place with wi-fi and post from the restroom stalls. I don't give a shit what I would do. Quin is not me. That also wasn't the only reason I changed my mind about Quin. Go read my posts and then tell me how bad they look.

Your posts look busy and look like you. You know that. You also know that it's the detail in which you can unravel so asking me to go read your posts like that is facetious. You sound like you would rather me just assume you are civ? What does that sound like? Dare we not question you?

What you would do is very relevant when in the context of your analysis of players. Answer my question without the defensiveness.

[Quin]

Personally I would like to ultimately see quin lynched. I feel he is the most compelling lynch and given the volume he has posted if the only good reason anyone has to refute the bad stuff is that he would probably not post as much as a mafia player with bad internet well I disagree and that's an awful reason.

Jimmy. If you were a mafia player who had bad internet and were one of the few players looking lynchable would you post with less frequency than if you were town with bad internet? I feel entirely the opposite and having really thought about it I really question the nature of the analysis from you. Bad look.

Has anyone actually made this point? 3J considered the effort in finding alternative ways to access the game thread, not my level of participation as a result of my lack of internet.

[MacDougall]

Personally I would like to ultimately see quin lynched. I feel he is the most compelling lynch and given the volume he has posted if the only good reason anyone has to refute the bad stuff is that he would probably not post as much as a mafia player with bad internet well I disagree and that's an awful reason.

Jimmy. If you were a mafia player who had bad internet and were one of the few players looking lynchable would you post with less frequency than if you were town with bad internet? I feel entirely the opposite and having really thought about it I really question the nature of the analysis from you. Bad look.

Has anyone actually made this point? 3J considered the effort in finding alternative ways to access the game thread, not my level of participation as a result of my lack of internet.

How is that not the same thing? Would you not seek out said alternatives in order to maintain participation?

[Quin]

Personally I would like to ultimately see quin lynched. I feel he is the most compelling lynch and given the volume he has posted if the only good reason anyone has to refute the bad stuff is that he would probably not post as much as a mafia player with bad internet well I disagree and that's an awful reason.

Jimmy. If you were a mafia player who had bad internet and were one of the few players looking lynchable would you post with less frequency than if you were town with bad internet? I feel entirely the opposite and having really thought about it I really question the nature of the analysis from you. Bad look.

Has anyone actually made this point? 3J considered the effort in finding alternative ways to access the game thread, not my level of participation as a result of my lack of internet.

How is that not the same thing? Would you not seek out said alternatives in order to maintain participation?

3J did not say "wow quin looks good because even though his internet sucks he's posting a lot". 3J said "wow quin looks good because he went through the effort of getting internet access so he could participate whereas a mafia might not be as motivated to do that. also he's just such a cool person i could never seriously scumread him"

That is how they are different.

[Quin]

Tell me why each of the other points in my defence are not good arguments, Mac.

[MacDougall]

Personally I would like to ultimately see quin lynched. I feel he is the most compelling lynch and given the volume he has posted if the only good reason anyone has to refute the bad stuff is that he would probably not post as much as a mafia player with bad internet well I disagree and that's an awful reason.

Jimmy. If you were a mafia player who had bad internet and were one of the few players looking lynchable would you post with less frequency than if you were town with bad internet? I feel entirely the opposite and having really thought about it I really question the nature of the analysis from you. Bad look.

Has anyone actually made this point? 3J considered the effort in finding alternative ways to access the game thread, not my level of participation as a result of my lack of internet.

How is that not the same thing? Would you not seek out said alternatives in order to maintain participation?

3J did not say "wow quin looks good because even though his internet sucks he's posting a lot". 3J said "wow quin looks good because he went through the effort of getting internet access so he could participate whereas a mafia might not be as motivated to do that. also he's just such a cool person i could never seriously scumread him"

That is how they are different.

Okay so you are arguing what?

Jimmy said it how you said it. I believe implying what I stated. I disagree either way. I believe the average player would be more inclined to do that as a mafia player under pressure than a civ.

[MacDougall]

Tell me why each of the other points in my defence are not good arguments, Mac.

What are they?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Your posts look busy and look like you. You know that. You also know that it's the detail in which you can unravel so asking me to go read your posts like that is facetious.

I have no idea what any of these three sentences mean. Please restate them another way.

You sound like you would rather me just assume you are civ? What does that sound like? Dare we not question you?

What? I didn't say that or anything similar to that. I didn't imply that or anything similar to that. You said my crappy-Internet-based reason for changing my mind on Quin looked bad. There were other reasons too, and I want you to talk to me about those as well if you're going to judge my turn on Quin. I also asked you a question about Quin earlier which I don't believe you addressed directly.

What you would do is very relevant when in the context of your analysis of players. Answer my question without the defensiveness.

Its relevance is very limited. Nearly nobody on the Internet plays Mafia the way I play Mafia. I might care about that if I am assessing a Sloonei or a MovingPictures07. To judge Quin based upon my own behavior and tendencies does not make sense, because Quin plays this game quite differently to me.