The Syndicate

Dom wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:You could start by sharing your perceived team of four cops.

Chaindeath
Nerolunar
Elo?
Soneji?

What makes you feel inclined to leave Epignosis out?

Finishing the interactive review for Nero/chaindeath:

Day 8:

chaindeath said nothing much on Day 8. His vote went to Boomslang.
chaindeath offered a little team of four cops on Night 8. Side note: this appears to be his first mention of Scotty being a baddie, and it comes right after S~V~S began to pursue Scotty. More potential opportunism. Nero is included among them.

Nero missed pretty much all of Day 8 and did not vote.

Day 9:

Again, pretty much nothing from chaindeath on Day 9. He did manage to find time to vote for Scotty though.
Nero laments the state of the game and his place in it, but restates his desire to lynch chaindeath.

His responses to my ISO part 1
His responses to my ISO part 2

A recurring theme of his responses is that he doesn't back down from what he has said about chaindeath, and he reinforces that in the end with a vote.
He moved his vote eventually to Dom when the tally became more oriented to Scotty versus Dom. He's correct when he asserts the chaindeath lynch never quite mounted. It can also be argued that he did work to support that lynch and promote it within his responses to my ISO. I don't think it's reasoable to expect a massive case from him or a continuous crusade -- his presence in this thread hasn't been constant enough for that like some others (myself, Sloonei, etc...).

Day 10:
When the avalanche of votes moved from Epignosis to Nerolunar, chaindeath was anxious to join the fun. Considering his track record for contributing to bad bandwagons based on questionable or non-existent premises, that alone might be a telling thing.

I highlighted a little tidbit for your viewing pleasure.

Nero has largely continued to voice his suspicion of chaindeath this phase, and given recent attempts at read reduction he has begun to attach him to Epignosis. His vote is currently on Dom, and he says it's because he wants to maintain the voting coalition.

I think for his part in the Scotty lynch and a bit too much tinfoil in regards to you Prisoner . That hes so strongly hostile towards anything I support doesn't help matters, its rather close minded. On second thought, Sloonei has less mechanical clearance as him being a Don requires coming to a logical conclusion from something Ika said.

As of this precise moment in time and space, I think this is the most likely cop team:

chaindeath
Dom
Elohcin
Epignosis

Soneji wrote:I think for his part in the Scotty lynch and a bit too much tinfoil in regards to you Prisoner . That hes so strongly hostile towards anything I support doesn't help matters, its rather close minded. On second thought, Sloonei has less mechanical clearance as him being a Don requires coming to a logical conclusion from something Ika said.

FYI, S~V~S is a she.

Her distrust of you likely stems from your support of Nerolunar, who she clearly does not trust.

I have a much easier time seeing chaindeath as a cop than either Sloonei or S~V~S. If the town core is corrupted, it'd probably be Turnip Head (who'd have benefited from some unseen role power nonsense). I don't think any of it is remotely likely, and they're not getting lynched anyway. Hopefully that's for the best.

It likely is chaindeath but my tone read on him at least is giving me some pause. Process of elimination is hard in play however and the logical conclusion its giving me is the same as earlier:

chaindeath
Epi
Elo
Dom

My brain is fried now so I'm going to step away and maybe even go outside. I'll be back well enough in time for EOD nonsense.

Nerolunar wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Nero, what is your answer to Epi's chaindeath vote?

Its very clever. I think he wants to provoke a reaction from me to try to shift the wagon back on me. I have two choices:

1) Vote for Chaindeath, decreasing the lead on Dom and splitting the wagon. Not a good choice.
2) Not vote for Chaindeath and get accused by Epi for being indecisive, probably causing votes to come back on me. Epi will say something like: "There is a wagon for chaindeath now, why don´t you vote for it? This is what you have been waiting for." and frame me when I don´t.

So far Im keeping my vote on Dom. I don´t want Epi to manipulate me.

Nerolunar: I've been trying to lynch chaindeath for days but no one will vote for him.
Epignosis: Let's lynch chaindeath.
Nerolunar: No. I don't want you to manipulate me. We can't split the wagon.

You and chaindeath are teammates trying to hold it together for the home stretch. You don't really want chaindeath lynched, and your vote on Dom isn't from belief that he is bad, it's based on not "splitting the wagon." But since when have you ever been concerned with a bandwagon staying together?

Prisoner, I read your review. I still see kid gloves. Nerolunar's refusal to vote chaindeath now and his reasons for refusing tell me his chaindeath "suspicion" is a sham.

Soneji wrote:I think for his part in the Scotty lynch and a bit too much tinfoil in regards to you Prisoner . That hes so strongly hostile towards anything I support doesn't help matters, its rather close minded. On second thought, Sloonei has less mechanical clearance as him being a Don requires coming to a logical conclusion from something Ika said.

The entirety of your game makes me distrust you. I also feel like the thread is being steered, and you are buddying up to the steerer HARD.

I am sorry if you think me not trusting you makes me bad when this is pretty much the first time you have really joined the discussion in any meaningful way. Trying to shove suspicion as someone who is basically confirmed at an intense LYLO conference screams bad to me.

I know our playstyles clash as well; but in the almost 8 years I have been playing online Mafia, it has served me well.

Epi, what you just asserted Nero is doing is impossible unless you're willing to call Elohcin a cop.

I am a thread steerer. I steer threads. I pride myself in playing with leadership.

Steering is a town trait in my neck of the woods.

Soneji's confusion about chain and Nero, and his effort to reconcile that somehow, is the most town he has been in this entire game IMO. There's healthy paranoia (not unlike S~V~S's tinfoiling on me), and there's a concerted effort to lynch someone (Soneji did not do that).

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Epi, what you just asserted Nero is doing is impossible unless you're willing to call Elohcin a cop.

Impossible? As in, "under no circumstances whatsoever?"

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Epi, what you just asserted Nero is doing is impossible unless you're willing to call Elohcin a cop.

Impossible? As in, "under no circumstances whatsoever?"

If he and chain are trying to hold it together now and instead lynch Dom to win it, then there are no townies left (unless you accuse a trusted player). If Dom is town and you're town, then Elo cannot be town.

Epignosis wrote:

Nerolunar wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Nero, what is your answer to Epi's chaindeath vote?

Its very clever. I think he wants to provoke a reaction from me to try to shift the wagon back on me. I have two choices:

1) Vote for Chaindeath, decreasing the lead on Dom and splitting the wagon. Not a good choice.
2) Not vote for Chaindeath and get accused by Epi for being indecisive, probably causing votes to come back on me. Epi will say something like: "There is a wagon for chaindeath now, why don´t you vote for it? This is what you have been waiting for." and frame me when I don´t.

So far Im keeping my vote on Dom. I don´t want Epi to manipulate me.

Nerolunar: I've been trying to lynch chaindeath for days but no one will vote for him.
Epignosis: Let's lynch chaindeath.
Nerolunar: No. I don't want you to manipulate me. We can't split the wagon.

You and chaindeath are teammates trying to hold it together for the home stretch. You don't really want chaindeath lynched, and your vote on Dom isn't from belief that he is bad, it's based on not "splitting the wagon." But since when have you ever been concerned with a bandwagon staying together?

Prisoner, I read your review. I still see kid gloves. Nerolunar's refusal to vote chaindeath now and his reasons for refusing tell me his chaindeath "suspicion" is a sham.

This is exactly what I knew would happen.

SVS I am not trying to shove suspicion on you, Prisoner asked me a question and I answered it is all. If by thread steerer you mean Prisoner, I think you might need to go reread some of our interactions if you think I am buddying him.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Epi, what you just asserted Nero is doing is impossible unless you're willing to call Elohcin a cop.

Impossible? As in, "under no circumstances whatsoever?"

If he and chain are trying to hold it together now and instead lynch Dom to win it, then there are no townies left (unless you accuse a trusted player). If Dom is town and you're town, then Elo cannot be town.

Soneji is a trusted player now?

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Epi, what you just asserted Nero is doing is impossible unless you're willing to call Elohcin a cop.

Impossible? As in, "under no circumstances whatsoever?"

If he and chain are trying to hold it together now and instead lynch Dom to win it, then there are no townies left (unless you accuse a trusted player). If Dom is town and you're town, then Elo cannot be town.

Soneji is a trusted player now?

I didn't say that. What cop team is there if you, Eloh, and Dom are all town?

Nerolunar wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Nerolunar wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Nero, what is your answer to Epi's chaindeath vote?

Its very clever. I think he wants to provoke a reaction from me to try to shift the wagon back on me. I have two choices:

1) Vote for Chaindeath, decreasing the lead on Dom and splitting the wagon. Not a good choice.
2) Not vote for Chaindeath and get accused by Epi for being indecisive, probably causing votes to come back on me. Epi will say something like: "There is a wagon for chaindeath now, why don´t you vote for it? This is what you have been waiting for." and frame me when I don´t.

So far Im keeping my vote on Dom. I don´t want Epi to manipulate me.

Nerolunar: I've been trying to lynch chaindeath for days but no one will vote for him.
Epignosis: Let's lynch chaindeath.
Nerolunar: No. I don't want you to manipulate me. We can't split the wagon.

You and chaindeath are teammates trying to hold it together for the home stretch. You don't really want chaindeath lynched, and your vote on Dom isn't from belief that he is bad, it's based on not "splitting the wagon." But since when have you ever been concerned with a bandwagon staying together?

Prisoner, I read your review. I still see kid gloves. Nerolunar's refusal to vote chaindeath now and his reasons for refusing tell me his chaindeath "suspicion" is a sham.

This is exactly what I knew would happen.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Epi, what you just asserted Nero is doing is impossible unless you're willing to call Elohcin a cop.

Impossible? As in, "under no circumstances whatsoever?"

If he and chain are trying to hold it together now and instead lynch Dom to win it, then there are no townies left (unless you accuse a trusted player). If Dom is town and you're town, then Elo cannot be town.

Soneji is a trusted player now?

I didn't say that. What cop team is there if you, Eloh, and Dom are all town?

chaindeath, Nerolunar, Soneji, and Turnip Head.

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Epi, what you just asserted Nero is doing is impossible unless you're willing to call Elohcin a cop.

Impossible? As in, "under no circumstances whatsoever?"

If he and chain are trying to hold it together now and instead lynch Dom to win it, then there are no townies left (unless you accuse a trusted player). If Dom is town and you're town, then Elo cannot be town.

Soneji is a trusted player now?

I didn't say that. What cop team is there if you, Eloh, and Dom are all town?

chaindeath, Nerolunar, Soneji, and Turnip Head.

Yeah you screwed up. Oops!

You're only trying to appeal to S~V~S at this point. You don't believe TH is bad. You're obvious and you hate it.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Epi, what you just asserted Nero is doing is impossible unless you're willing to call Elohcin a cop.

Impossible? As in, "under no circumstances whatsoever?"

If he and chain are trying to hold it together now and instead lynch Dom to win it, then there are no townies left (unless you accuse a trusted player). If Dom is town and you're town, then Elo cannot be town.

Soneji is a trusted player now?

I didn't say that. What cop team is there if you, Eloh, and Dom are all town?

chaindeath, Nerolunar, Soneji, and Turnip Head.

Yeah you screwed up. Oops!

You're only trying to appeal to S~V~S at this point. You don't believe TH is bad. You're obvious and you hate it.

No, I don't believe Turnip Head is bad. I don't believe S~V~S is either (in fact, I think I have her role pegged).

Oh please, pray tell? What is S~V~S's role?

You don't believe Turnip Head is a cop, which means you are still left with Dom as a cop, which means your accusation of Nero makes no sense.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Oh please, pray tell? What is S~V~S's role?

You don't believe Turnip Head is a cop, which means you are still left with Dom as a cop, which means your accusation of Nero makes no sense.

I believe S~V~S is not a fighter.

And my accusation of Nero is just fine, thanks.

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Oh please, pray tell? What is S~V~S's role?

You don't believe Turnip Head is a cop, which means you are still left with Dom as a cop, which means your accusation of Nero makes no sense.

I believe S~V~S is not a fighter.

And my accusation of Nero is just fine, thanks.

You're saying exactly nothing now.

S~V~S there is nothing left to trust in this man.

"Exactly nothing."

Okay then.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Oh please, pray tell? What is S~V~S's role?

You don't believe Turnip Head is a cop, which means you are still left with Dom as a cop, which means your accusation of Nero makes no sense.

I believe S~V~S is not a fighter.

And my accusation of Nero is just fine, thanks.

You're saying exactly nothing now.

S~V~S there is nothing left to trust in this man.

You're the one who said I trusted him,not me. I said I distrust others more.

I trust Sloonei, I still trust you, and while I did not trust TH initially after his survival, I have reason to believe he is on our side. That is who I trust.

I distrust others more than Epi.

That's what he's counting on.

I'm in a movie theater. I'll be back with time to spare. Y'all should talk about whether Epi should go now or later.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:I'm in a movie theater. I'll be back with time to spare. Y'all should talk about whether Epi should go now or later.

I hope your movie is better than your most recent posts.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:

Dom wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:You could start by sharing your perceived team of four cops.

Chaindeath
Nerolunar
Elo?
Soneji?

What makes you feel inclined to leave Epignosis out?

I don't fully understand why people think he is bad.

Im going to bed now.

Fine, i'll put my stupid vote on stupid Dom.

Please note that Dom is not actually stupid.

*sigh*

Epi's play in this phase has been suspicious enough that I'd feel just as comfortable lynching him. He put Nero in a lose-lose position, made an accusation that logically cannot even work with his claimed "reads", and then started talking nonsense when called out for it.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Epi's play in this phase has been suspicious enough that I'd feel just as comfortable lynching him. He put Nero in a lose-lose position, made an accusation that logically cannot even work with his claimed "reads", and then started talking nonsense when called out for it.

Lose-lose situations. You like those.

"If you are good and Eloh is good and Dom is good, who is the cop team?"



Was the movie any good?

Epignosis wrote:

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Epi's play in this phase has been suspicious enough that I'd feel just as comfortable lynching him. He put Nero in a lose-lose position, made an accusation that logically cannot even work with his claimed "reads", and then started talking nonsense when called out for it.

Lose-lose situations. You like those.

"If you are good and Eloh is good and Dom is good, who is the cop team?"



Was the movie any good?

You put yourself in that situation, I only asked you how it's possible. Because it's not, unless you pull something out of left field that you've never pushed prior (Turnip Head as a cop).

The movie (Hail Caesar) was alright. Weird, but alright.

I'm not pushing Turnip Head as a cop. I was accepting the premises you put on the table. I don't agree with one of them. One of them I'm questioning. One is gospel.

Let's follow the logic, Epignosis.

Your claim: Nerolunar and chaindeath are trying to get through the "home stretch" intact to win the game, which is why Nero is holding his vote on Dom.

Implication: This can only make sense if Dom is town.

External fact: Epignosis has been inclined to read Elohcin as town.

External fact: From Epignosis's perspective, he is also town (hypothetically speaking, as he must convey himself here).

Implication: If his accusation of Nero is valid, then that means Epignosis, Elohcin, and Dom are all town.

Implication: Those three being town leaves only the following three to be cops: Soneji, chaindeath, Nerolunar -- unless a new name is incorporated from the trusted group (S~V~S, Sloonei, Turnip Head, Prisoner).

External fact: Before choosing Turnip Head, Epi asked me incredulously if Soneji is suddenly one of the trusted people.

Implication: He didn't realize his goof, and then he had to fill the gap with someone from the trusted group. Epignosis chose Turnip Head.

External fact: Epignosis had made no mention prior of any meaningful suspicion of Turnip Head being a cop. It only happened just then.

Implication: He made it up and does not believe it.

Implication: He's lying about his read on Turnip Head.

Implication: He's lying about the mindset that brough him to that read on Turnip Head (derived from the accusation against Nero).

Implication: He doesn't believe in his own accusation of Nero.

Implication: He's a cop.

And if Epi does think Dom is a cop, then what sense does it make to accuse Nero of meekly avoiding bussing chaindeath if he'd just be bussing Dom instead?

None of this adds up.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Let's follow the logic, Epignosis.

Your claim: Nerolunar and chaindeath are trying to get through the "home stretch" intact to win the game, which is why Nero is holding his vote on Dom.

Implication: This can only make sense if Dom is town. False. See below.

External fact: Epignosis has been inclined to read Elohcin as town.

External fact: From Epignosis's perspective, he is also town (hypothetically speaking, as he must convey himself here).

Implication: If his accusation of Nero is valid, then that means Epignosis, Elohcin, and Dom are all town.

Implication: Those three being town leaves only the following three to be cops: Soneji, chaindeath, Nerolunar -- unless a new name is incorporated from the trusted group (S~V~S, Sloonei, Turnip Head, Prisoner).

External fact: Before choosing Turnip Head, Epi asked me incredulously if Soneji is suddenly one of the trusted people.

If he and chain are trying to hold it together now and instead lynch Dom to win it, then there are no townies left (unless you accuse a trusted player). If Dom is town and you're town, then Elo cannot be town.

This implies Soneji is trusted.

Implication: He didn't realize his goof, and then he had to fill the gap with someone from the trusted group. Epignosis chose Turnip Head.

External fact: Epignosis had made no mention prior of any meaningful suspicion of Turnip Head being a cop. It only happened just then. And I still have none.

Implication: He made it up and does not believe it.

Implication: He's lying about his read on Turnip Head.

Implication: He's lying about the mindset that brough him to that read on Turnip Head (derived from the accusation against Nero).

Implication: He doesn't believe in his own accusation of Nero.

Implication: He's a cop.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:And if Epi does think Dom is a cop, then what sense does it make to accuse Nero of meekly avoiding bussing chaindeath if he'd just be bussing Dom instead?

None of this adds up.

Not all cops are created equal. One is responsible for extra arrest attempts. One isn't responsible for anything. When I look for bussing attempts, I look at the value of the role power in question when I'm making a judgment.

Time to cook.

Epi, why didn't you expend an ounce of energy on the Nero/chain dynamic until you were mechanically forced to do so?

Epignosis wrote:Let's see.

chaindeath

The problems with Epi's "test" of Nerolunar are pretty much exactly as Nero described them himself. When Epi pulled this I literally rolled my eyes. There's been a concerted effort at vote consolidation, and it has been amped up in this phase especially (Sloonei pushed it) given the likelihood that the cops are only outnumbered by one townie. Epignosis has hardly even acknowledged that, he even implied he might refuse to take part when Sloonei originally said it -- that has the very real possibility of losing the game on its own power if Epi is town, and there's no way he's ignorant to that. To ignore the most important reason why Nero's vote would remain on Dom is to ignore common sense. I don't think Epi is unaware of that, and that's the problem. He knows, and he still expects Nero to just hop over to chaindeath and split the wagons, going against his own stated reason for joining the Dom wagon (in concert with his agreement that Dom is a suspect).

Nero had no way of passing that test.

Hopping aboard the Dom train. Choo choo!

I'm trusting the majority.

Yay TH

I hope that after today, we can talk together rather than being told what is and is not logical or what does and does not make sense.

Again, I am communicating points. My tone might sound severe or hardheaded, but that's just the way I talk. I am always ready to hear dissenting perspectives. I need them, frankly. I can't guarantee I'll agree, but I value the conversation.

It does not feel that way.When i say something dissenting, it feels like you are trying to refute me rather than understand me.

S~V~S wrote:It does not feel that way.When i say something dissenting, it feels like you are trying to refute me rather than understand me.

That's how my mind works. I work to understand through refutation. That doesn't mean I am unwilling to budge. That means I see logic points in front of me, and I am trying to work them out one at a time, piece by piece. There are moments when I make a refutation and then someone shows me that my thinking is misguided or straight up illogical. I can't just look at one post and have that be that, I need to have a conversation.

When I throw a refutation out there, my intent is never "you're wrong and this is what's right." I'm wrong way too often to do that.

My intent is "this is what gives me pause about your perspective, maybe you have something to lessen that concern in your mindset, please throw it at me."

Well the way myu mind works is that if I offer an argument,and i am refuted rather than understood or considered, I withdraw. Something tells me you have run into this before.