The Syndicate

MovingPictures07 wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Epignosis's crusade against Floyd is based upon what strikes me as close to nothing, so I view it dubiously. Regardless of Floyd's alignment, I don't understand Epi's conduct as a town approach -- he is shouting his desired target and apparently doesn't care much at all about anything else happening in the game. That's not inspiring, and even if he is right about Floyd it would strike me as luck at best and calculated at worst. Epi doesn't strike me as the guy that plays for a lucky break.

I don't know how one can have any conviction in reading Floyd as town or mafia right now. There's not enough there.

Why is it that you could construct a gambit town approach for the behavior of DrWilgy but not for Epignosis?

I've seen the townie-gives-fake-red-peek gambit many times before, and I have done it before. The only thing that makes Doc's gambit unique is that he did it on Day 1 before a red peek was actually plausible, but that hasn't really been an issue for me.

I don't think I've ever seen a townie just pick someone out of a hat and then attack them all day long for essentially no reason -- and never relent on that gambit even through the final buzzer. Epi is still doing it. I'm not sure this would be a terribly productive move, or even provide the opportunity for much productivity. If you think it's a town gambit of some sort then go ahead and describe what you think he's doing. I'm willing to listen.

a2thezebra wrote:

Spoiler: show

Epignosis wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I don't need a lecture about being inspiring and playing for lucky breaks from a guy who voted out the cop Day 1.

Horseshit ad hominem is beneath you. You're bad.

That's not an ad hominem, nor is it horseshit.

You ignored my accusation and attacked my credibility. Ad hominem.

My part in yesterday's lynch is irrelevant, and I did not lecture you.

I'm going to level with you. If you're town, you stink. You've done shit all and pretend to have high ground because shit all is better than a vote for the cop.

You're bad.

Attacking your credibility is not an ad hominem. If you are bad, then you should have no credibility.

Now, the underlined, THAT's an ad hominem, Chuckles.

Presently, I have done more for the civilians than you have. You are, as of now, a liability to the civilians. If we had voted out Floyd Day 1 and even then he turned out to be a civilian, that STILL would have been a superior play than what transpired. And your vote for Enrique was the weakest maneuver I've ever witnessed you make. Observe:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Doc's review of Enrique brought me to this post.

Enrique wrote:

motel room wrote:

Enrique wrote:u first tiger

right, i'm suss of you because of your little hop away from your Diiny vote to voting Wilgy after his cop claim, to getting back on Diiny. Reads like you didn't know where to sit and now have a theory involving them both being scum.

I want to hear YOUR opinion on Diiny.

For the record, I've always been perfectly okay with a Diiny lynch. Wilgy did look more dangerous for a bit, but really, as long as we get a bad guy today there's no rush. Lynching DrWilgy is taking too big a risk atm when we know so little about what he's trying to do.

I think Diiny is scum. I think DrWilgy most likely is but until Diiny is gone, we don't want to lynch him.

The highlighted bits seem a bit inflated to me -- as in they assign importance and seriousness to something that I don't think needs to be viewed that way. Why is lynching DrWilgy a "big risk" by comparison to lynching the guy he claimed to red peek when most of us thought it was a lie anyway?

Moreover, Enrique has been entertaining the notion that Doc and Diiny are both Mafia, which makes me wonder what he thinks Diiny's lynch would reveal about Doc that he hasn't already implied. If Diiny flips town, his suspicion of Doc can persist for obvious reasons (he lied about a red peek and pushed hard for an errant lynch). If Diiny flips mafia, then his suspicion of Doc can still persist based on his own exploration of the bussing possibility.

So I'm not sure this post aligns nicely with Enrique's own stated mindset.

According to this post, you define "seems a bit inflated to me" as "[assigning] importance and seriousness to something [you] don't think needs to be viewed that way." Aside from the hedged phrasing there ("seems a bit"), the definition of "inflated" you provided is now discredited. You then ask a question that Enrique answered in the post you quoted (it's risky to lynch Wilgy before learning where he was going with his cop claim...bear in mind that it's the cop allowing WIlgy's antic).

In the second section, you preemptively cast suspicion on Enrique based on a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. That is a rotten tactic, and, ironically, it allows YOU to maintain an Enrique suspicion if Enrique survives Day 1 and Dinny is lynched either way.

So 3J, if you are the arbiter of who is stinking as a civilian, I'm not at all bothered with the insult. But you're not the arbiter of who stinks as a civilians- Mafia don't get to decide that.

I'm calling 3J and Floyd as teammates.

This is the biggest pile of Epi shit I've ever seen.

How do you figure?

I don't find value in Epi's thoughts here; nonetheless, I'm having a bit of a problem so far with JJJ this game. In other games we've played together, I almost always am able to understand his thought process. I'm struggling a bit so far this game... I'll keep reading and see if clarification arises; if not, I can try to elaborate on this, probably after an ISO.

Zebra, can you summarize why you feel my stated suspicion of Epi was opportunistic? I don't think I could have chosen a more difficult "opportunity" if that's the case -- Epi always bites back.

zebra, and anyone else who has currently voted for Diiny, please talk to me about him. I've not been pinged by him all game, except for finding his treatment of Wilgy's gambit suddenly altering his read on Wilgy perplexing (if he is town). I'm struggling to get my head wrapped around why people are calling his behavior mafia.

Well, I'm limiting my time here in spurts in between studying... was hoping to get caught up more, but it is what it is. I'll be back in an hour or so though to finish.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Zebra, can you summarize why you feel my stated suspicion of Epi was opportunistic? I don't think I could have chosen a more difficult "opportunity" if that's the case -- Epi always bites back.

Epi always bites back but not always convincingly. After all, I perceived his initial vote of you to be an OMGUS with no meat behind it. I think your suspicion of Epi was opportunistic because your were making out criticisms that were not alignment-indicative to be criticisms that made Epi look bad.

MovingPictures07 wrote:zebra, and anyone else who has currently voted for Diiny, please talk to me about him. I've not been pinged by him all game, except for finding his treatment of Wilgy's gambit suddenly altering his read on Wilgy perplexing (if he is town). I'm struggling to get my head wrapped around why people are calling his behavior mafia.

Every single one of his posts reads as remarkably disingenuous to me, not to mention his lynch was sealed until JJJ brought up Enrique. I try to avoid team theories like most, but come on. That's something. Since you're the minority, I'm curious to hear why you haven't been pinged by him yet.

Just caught up, lotta good content. Gonna go through again and actually reply.

TheFloyd73 wrote:

Diiny wrote:

TheFloyd73 wrote:

Diiny wrote:Oh, I thought he was accusing me of that but I guess he was just saying what happened generally?

In which case floyd tell me which of these votes are the most suspicious. Five to choose from.

Epi voting for me, although I think he just has a problem with me which he won't mention.

Motel's vote for Dfaraday is the one the also perplexes me.

I mean of the five votes for enrique.

Epi mentioned the fact that Mac voted for Enrique, despite saying he was "confirmed scum".

Enrique
5
JaggedJimmyJay (11), DrWilgy (12), MovingPictures07 (13), MacDougall (15), Diiny (16)
31%

After that turnaround, after having agreed (er, not disagreed) with Mac's list of "confirmed townies," after witnessing Mac put the deciding vote on Enrique the cop, after all that, you don't have ONE thing to say about MacDougall?

Maybe I'm not so simple minded.

This actually perplexes me for two reasons.
1. What drew Mac to change his mind? (I may need to reread the thread for this).
2. Epi has done his only clever motion this game, but still wants me exterminated.

Epi, what makes you think that Triple J and I have any association with each other?

I'm annoyed that floyd's answer to my question is parroted from the thread, which reminds me of last game. Did he do this in his town games, anyone?

1 makes me feel a TAD better, but I'm saddened that the answer was already in the thread.
Floyd explained 2 in his next post so I'll quote that

TheFloyd73 wrote: You put it on yourself, man. I have no idea what you've got against me, but whatever it is, just share it.

Am I not permitted to call you Epi? Give me a reason not to.

My statement refers to he fact that pointed out that Mac gone against his word but you still want me gone.

this is floyd's best post.

I wouldn't have been happy with anything but a similar response thing to Epi's comment about being called Epi, and he questions epi's stance on him as you'd expect. I'd like to see a bit more ferocity, but going on a per-post makes it better. Not that I'm condoning his low post count and that he seems to still be focusing almost entirely on himself. I doubt he'd have questioned epi if he wasn't crusading against him.

Still a scum read.

I'm back, probably will be here for an hour or so, then will be gone until closer to EoD... if I can keep myself away.

a2thezebra wrote:

Diiny wrote:And I have no idea why Zebra's treating it like it's no biggie.

I'm not, I just don't see how it's alignment-indicative.

How do you figure?

Epignosis wrote: To others:

I don't think 3J was being genuine with his vote on Enrique. 3J's vote was out of the way at the time. When the biggest discussions were Diiny and FZ., 3J casts the first vote for Enrique based on flimsy reasoning.

Therefore, I don't think 3J was expecting Enrique to get lynched. I think he played it safe and then tried to set up Enrique by preemptively commenting on a Dinny lynch, which looked like the most likely scenario at the time:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Moreover, Enrique has been entertaining the notion that Doc and Diiny are both Mafia, which makes me wonder what he thinks Diiny's lynch would reveal about Doc that he hasn't already implied. If Diiny flips town, his suspicion of Doc can persist for obvious reasons (he lied about a red peek and pushed hard for an errant lynch). If Diiny flips mafia, then his suspicion of Doc can still persist based on his own exploration of the bussing possibility.

So I'm not sure this post aligns nicely with Enrique's own stated mindset.

To those who know 3J better than I do, would a civilian 3J make this kind of "damned if Diiny flips good / damned if Diiny flips bad" against someone Day 1?

I can follow JJJ's logic, particularly since I was also confused by Enrique's assertion that Diiny and Wilgy are both scum and then changing his mind on which to lynch first, but I don't know the answer to your question. I think JJJ's analysis of Enrique's post that you highlight above is not alignment-indicative.

FZ. wrote:Sorry, this is a bad "day" for me.

Look, I'm not bad, nor have I played an easy game, zebra. If you want to lynch me, do it. I have to much in RL now to defend myself, and won't be back until the end of the day.
I've explained too many times why I followed Wilgy and why I unvoted Diiny after I realized it was fake. If you don't believe me, there's nothing I can do about it. I think when it comes to trying to understand what Wilgy was doing, and progressing the discussion around that, I did more than anyone here to try to figure it out (but that's my opinion).

I'm voting for Wilgy, because now that I know he was faking, things have changed for me. I don't have time to engage in discussion with people to come up with someone I fee strong enough to be bad. I'm back and forth on Floyd and JJJ, and I feel that Wilgy is the best choice. Go back and find the post where I explained why and don't say something which isn't true.

Wilgy basically had nothing to lose from his gambit as mafia. He took no risk at all. He came out looking really good from it, and he said he'll answer my points but he hasn't. Since I don't have time to wait any longer, I'm voting him. If he does answer and his answers feel legit, don't vote for him, so he'll only have my vote. I can't do better than this.

I'm out

I'm not sure I like this. Why isn't this, "I can't defend myself but don't lynch me because I'm town?" It almost feels to me like FZ's trying to justify leaving her vote on Wilgy rather than explaining why he's scum. Whilst I agree the wilgy is sus, I have acknowlaged the possibility of what he did being for townie reasons, which this post doesn't do. It doesn't say that whilst there was no risk in doing what he did as town there's at least reason for him to do it as town. Doesn't grapple with stuff like his talking about regretting not changing his vote when pressed on why he didn't even though it was impossible for him to have in the first place. Again, more than one explanation but would've shown at least a decent level of research for a top suspect. Also his WIFOMmy drunkposting

Ambiguous feels about telling us not to vote him if he feels legit, though. In a way it feels like a caveat/distancer but could also be a genuinely time starved townie admitted her case isn't comprehensive and who is unwilling to lynch town. Overall badfeels, though.

motel room wrote:in the second 24 hours of today we'll surely get a sober Wilgy and I think that'll be more enlightening than the current drunk, "depressing", self-vote Dr. I still think that cop gambit was towny.

Back in RYM land on pretty sure his first game with infodumping, MP tried a cop gambit which backfired on him but he made the move as town. A new game mechanic, town tries the tricks, imo.

so here, MP, while I think I agree with you, whats different about your gambit and his, because you were part of the reason I feel Wilgy was town but you are distancing from what he's done:

Spoiler: show

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Enrique wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Enrique wrote:I thought he was hinting at actually being the doctor, which he pretty much just straight up denied ("nonsense lyrics") and leaves me exactly where I was before. DrWilgy is a liar and he's bad.

DrWilgy seems to always say "I am most certainly (not) a doctor!" every game; is that what you're referring to?

I've never heard of a n0 peek being red, so I don't know why anyone would entertain Wilgy to be telling the truth.

I'm confused as to why FZ. followed it. I'm also confused as to why FZ. thinks I would put in more effort so far as mafia, despite her second post saying I've been "caught" posting too much as mafia before. My posting frequency is not indicative of my alignment.

No. Basically, I realized that DrWilgy being the Doctor was the only way his actions could make any sense while being a civvie. False claiming draws out the cop AND allows him to protect him, right? It's not a great plan but I literally can't think of any other reason a civ would lie so blatantly. He made some cryptic post about watching people in the night and I was like "huh, I get it." Turns out there was nothing to get.

Diiny wrote:Enrique

Diiny wrote:I want to understand what you think wilgy's plan/particular brand of scumminess is, help me out. Because his plan seems bizarre from any angle, scum or town.

The "crazy bastard" brand. Diiny, gonna be honest here, your reactions to Zebra on the first day looked bad as fuck to me. You took every single piece of bait anyone left, you had a pretty unsatisfying reaction to Wilgy's "outing" of you, and overall looked like a baddie that got got. You could be Wilgy's teammate and this could be some crazy tactic to get himself certified civ credit for the rest of the game, I don't know, but the only thing I'm sure about right now is that he's bad. I'm being very serious, and this goes out to you as well as MP, Sorsha and whoever else... if we can get enough votes on Wilgy, I guarantee you we will get a baddie.

linki- how?? How do Wilgy's actions make sense from a civvie perspective at all?

They don't make much sense to me personally; I would never pull such an obviously fake gambit, but that's just me. From what I've seen from hosting and playing with him, Wilgy likes to try new things, both as civilian and mafia.

So the gambit itself doesn't make me put him in one category or the other. Knowing that he purposefully has made such a gambit, GTH I see a genuine interest in Wilgy trying to solve the game, particularly when he was interacting with FZ. regarding his Diiny read.

I don't feel strongly about it, but I'm not rushing to condemn his actions as mafia. Old MP might have done that, but old MP learned a lesson the hard way earlier this year in Economics, where G-Man's behavior was so illogical (he posted only in pictures nearly the whole game, lied about being cursed to do so, finally stopped doing it and admitted he lied when I put enough pressure on him, but then continued to do it anyway, among other things). I branded him as 100% mafia and pursued him with the utmost confidence, only to find out he was civilian. My mind is still recovering from that crazy flip, and ever since it's made me hesitate to regard any crazy, illogical behavior as automatically mafia.

?

Hmmm, good question. I suppose the game you reference in which I did pull a similar gambit influenced me largely in that I would never undertake such a gambit again in this kind of setup.

FZ., is there a reason you ignored my suspicion of you completely and have failed to address me altogether? I'm a bit perturbed by it.

I not only strongly expressed suspicion of FZ. enough to put her on the red section of my rainbow list at the end of Day 1, but I linked her to zebra, and she has said literally nothing on the subject the entire Day, neither has she tried to engage me in any way whatsoever.

This particularly bothers me because in every game I've played with civilian FZ., she has specifically tried to make an effort to engage me specifically as well as many others in-thread to develop reads and opinions. I am definitely not seeing that here.

With that said, I know FZ. is a mafia capable of replicating her supatown-engaging play, so I'm going to mull over this.

Mac, let's talk about both JJJ and motel room in real time if we can.

Regarding JJJ, I do not feel confident about him being town, and I want to see if you can help me understand your read of him better. Regarding motel room, I hope to hear more from him and expect a bit more insight / aggression, but other than that I think he is relatively on-meta from what I've seen from him in Talking Heads and other RYM games. In addition, there is nothing in the specific posts you bring to the table that particularly pings me any more than a lack of fully understanding his train of thought re: suspicions that I also share with DFaraday and TheFloyd. So I really want to engage with you further on that as well, since I feel like I'm missing something.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Moreover, if there is one characteristic of a town JJJ that you should all know by now it's a total willingness to change my mind with the wind. I don't tunnel and I won't tunnel.

Regarding this point, I agree that the point against you that a 'town JJJ wouldn't change his mind' with respect to your flip on Epi is either a misunderstanding or a mischaracterization.

However, I feel as though this post exemplifies a characteristic I've seen from you this game that I do not feel I typically see of a civilian JJJ, and that I feel I've seen more in the few games I've witnessed you as anti-town. It's hard to describe exactly and I've been having trouble figuring out how to express it... but there's a difference with the diction and sentence wording with you this game. For example, in the above post, I get the feeling that you're implying that we should town read you because you're not tunneling.

Does that make sense? Is there any way you can address my concern here? I realize it's a bit abstract and up to my interpretation of your words, but there's something distinctly different about you this game and I cannot for the life of me get on the same page with you yet.

Does anyone else know what I'm talking about or am I alone here?

a2thezebra wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:To put it the most simply, Zebra: you seem to agree that if Epi is town, his initial approach to this game was a poor one.

I think Epi is a very capable townie and anything less than that is a valid reason to suspect him. I illustrated various examples of his play being beneath his standard, and that's frankly not very different from what he has insinuated about me at least once in this game. Neither of us seems to think the other is up to spec, and we're both casting suspicion for it.

I agree that he is a very capable townie, but also a very capable scummie. I don't think he would be playing the way he is as a bad guy, it's just too distinctive and noticeable. I was bad with him way back in Misfits and he was very careful, he didn't like me confronting him in-thread or being open about my reads in-thread.

I disagree with this assessment; I would describe Epi as distinctive and noticeable in practically every game he plays. The characterization of Epi you give in Misfits is a bit odd... I've not had the pleasure of being on Epi's BTSC team (how has this still not happened?) other than a brief weird stint in Doctor Who when we recruited him, but that sounds a bit off-meta to me. Not only that, but also you seem to be describing teammate interaction by Epi in your anecdote, whereas your characterization of Epi as a bad guy is more general.

You seemed to be town reading Epi once he elaborated and really put his read / accusation for JJJ on the table, but you didn't before that... you think his playstyle can be characterized as more "too distinctive and noticeable" now that he has adopted more traditional baddie hunting, than it was before when he was pounding his chest for a Floyd lynch? I would have thought the latter would make him stick out at least as much.

So I don't follow at all. Can you elaborate?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

MacDougall wrote:The more time you spend on this pointless crap that only you three actually care about the further down my reads list you're tumbling. You are more worried about defending yourself than helping me lynch a scum.

I'm worried about both. Townies have two responsibilities. Gripe about self-defense when you have votes on your face.

I'm working on it, calm down.

There's a tone to your posts, JJJ, such as the one expressed above, that I don't know how to interpret. How do you feel about Mac's observation? Do you feel as though you have, to even the smallest degree, spent a disproportionate time on defending yourself or scum hunting?

Though I don't completely agree with Mac's assertion, I will admit that I don't really know where you are at with most players at this point in time. A rainbow list or something would assist.

I don't even know whether you suspect or town read Epi at this point, for example, and I do not know how you feel about DFaraday, despite this post:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:For those who don't know, it should be stated that in my experience playing with DFaraday (still limited), lurking is not abnormal. Perhaps this much lurking isn't ordinary, but I wouldn't ever peg him as a high post count type.

DFaraday wrote:Alright, I've more or less caught up. Wilgy is looking pretty bad to me, as I can't see a good civ reason for his behavior. Epi is coming across as civ, and I think his JJJ case is sounding plausible, but tomorrow I'll read over JJJ to get a better handle on it.

It's very important that you come through on this post. You've taken a couple definitive stances (suspicious of DrWilgy and not suspicious of Epi) so that's neat. I would like to hear what brings you to these perspectives though, and what you feel about me when you've had your chance to review. Please make the best effort you can to leave some posts in this thread. It might not be your style to talk a lot and I respect that, I only ask that you give the rest of us a fair opportunity to get a read on you. We need something to work with.

Which maybe gives you and the rest of the thread a little more elaboration on what I mean when I say I have not been able to connect with you as much this game. I am a bit uncomfortable because I'm having trouble figuring out where your head is at, but maybe that's all my fault and I'm being unreasonable. Some input from others as well would be appreciated here.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Moreover, if there is one characteristic of a town JJJ that you should all know by now it's a total willingness to change my mind with the wind. I don't tunnel and I won't tunnel.

Regarding this point, I agree that the point against you that a 'town JJJ wouldn't change his mind' with respect to your flip on Epi is either a misunderstanding or a mischaracterization.

However, I feel as though this post exemplifies a characteristic I've seen from you this game that I do not feel I typically see of a civilian JJJ, and that I feel I've seen more in the few games I've witnessed you as anti-town. It's hard to describe exactly and I've been having trouble figuring out how to express it... but there's a difference with the diction and sentence wording with you this game. For example, in the above post, I get the feeling that you're implying that we should town read you because you're not tunneling.

I don't mean to imply anyone should town read me because I "backtracked" on Epi. I mean to imply that it's a poor reason to mafia-read me. I don't think people who are long-term familiar with my play would be able to make an accusation of that because it's just a part of who I am.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Does that make sense? Is there any way you can address my concern here? I realize it's a bit abstract and up to my interpretation of your words, but there's something distinctly different about you this game and I cannot for the life of me get on the same page with you yet.

Does anyone else know what I'm talking about or am I alone here?

I can't know exactly what you're talking about in this sort of vague language, but I can guess. I probably do sound different in some ways this game -- more volatile and angry perhaps. I've noted it in my own content at least, and that is probably just RL fatigue leaking into my posts. I'm playing a very frank, give-no-shits game right now, primarily because I don't have time to play with the painstaking care that might normally be associated with me. I haven't done a single ISO yet. I've been One of the Guys instead of The Spotlight. These are all willfull and direct results of Talking Heads. I'm not sure people fully understand how much that game took out of me (1,450 posts and the average word count in them was sky-high), I am still running on close to empty weeks later. I considered not playing for this reason, but I hated to keep endorsing these heist games without actually playing one.

a2thezebra wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:TheFloyd73
Epignosis
MovingPictures07
MacDougall
DrWilgy
DFaraday
motel room
JaggedJimmyJay
FZ.
Diiny

Wow, what's with that top town read? Did Floyd start supatowning it up? Now I'm really intrigued to finish catching up!

Can you provide explanation as to your bottom 3?

No, do not get your hopes up about Floyd supatowning. He is my top town read simply because he is literally the only player who has yet to ping me even slightly. That's it.

JaggedJimmyJay came off as very opportunistic to me regarding his conflict with Epi and seemed nervous when he backtracked later. I called him out on this and he responded with more nervousness than I would expect if I was mistaken. However, his more recent responses read genuine to me, hence him being third-last as opposed to last.

FZ is just playing an easy scum game. She voted for a player based on a cop claim that was dubious to begin with and nothing else while making little comment as to what she actually thought about the player she was voting for (she has since remedied this...by saying that she thinks Diiny is town) and now that the cop claim has been proven false she is now voting for DrWilgy for misleading her. Easy decision Day 1, easy decision Day 2. Not to mention her only way of defending herself is by pretending that people only suspect her because they haven't been reading her previous defenses, hence her using the same weak defense over and over again while feigning (?) frustration at the game overall.

Diiny is scum that I caught almost as soon as the game started. People are under the impression that his recent posts read genuine and I don't see it. Quantity is not quality by default.

Cool, now that I've caught back up to this post, I can fully digest it and engage you in a discussion. Full circle.

Re: Floyd, don't you think that this is an inevitable byproduct of the fact that Floyd is one of the players least presenting his train of thought in the thread?

There's a tone quality to JJJ that is also throwing me off, and "nervous" describes some (but not all) of it. He also seems more... indignant than normal, like he's frustrated and less comfortable.

I agree with you on FZ., she's my top mafia read at the moment (I'll produce a rainbow list in just a minute).

We must really be on different pages with Diiny, since I'm failing to get it. I don't see much amiss with his quality either.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Epignosis's crusade against Floyd is based upon what strikes me as close to nothing, so I view it dubiously. Regardless of Floyd's alignment, I don't understand Epi's conduct as a town approach -- he is shouting his desired target and apparently doesn't care much at all about anything else happening in the game. That's not inspiring, and even if he is right about Floyd it would strike me as luck at best and calculated at worst. Epi doesn't strike me as the guy that plays for a lucky break.

I don't know how one can have any conviction in reading Floyd as town or mafia right now. There's not enough there.

Why is it that you could construct a gambit town approach for the behavior of DrWilgy but not for Epignosis?

I've seen the townie-gives-fake-red-peek gambit many times before, and I have done it before. The only thing that makes Doc's gambit unique is that he did it on Day 1 before a red peek was actually plausible, but that hasn't really been an issue for me.

I don't think I've ever seen a townie just pick someone out of a hat and then attack them all day long for essentially no reason -- and never relent on that gambit even through the final buzzer. Epi is still doing it. I'm not sure this would be a terribly productive move, or even provide the opportunity for much productivity. If you think it's a town gambit of some sort then go ahead and describe what you think he's doing. I'm willing to listen.

This makes sense; it seems that we have different backgrounds on this matter. Since I've only played and witnessed a limited number of open setups such as this, I'm not as familiar with the townie-gives-fake-red-peek gambit, but nonetheless I found it instantly recognizable, so no issue there.

With regards to the latter gambit (employed by Epi), maybe it's because I've played with Epi many times, and others who've tried employing a similar reaction baiting strategy (Llama comes to mind). I'll never forget a game I played with Epi on RM (can't remember which game it was though) and he voted for someone on Day 1 right off the bat, caught a substantial amount of heat for it (and I questioned him thoroughly on it). He was not able to produce a real reason for wanting to lynch that person. In the end, he was able to actually produce meaningful discussion (IMO, anyway) merely by generating reactions from many players in the game that otherwise wouldn't have occurred, since due to the controversial nature of Epi's behavior, they were forced into a position where it seem suspicious if they didn't have an alignment read or opinion on Epi's behavior. It's exactly like what Epi was doing this game with Floyd. I guess I would say it's a hallmark of Epi's bag of tools that I've seen him apply to different settings before.

Refer to this response I made to zebra:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Diiny wrote:Motel or anyone else you should probably look at the votes to make up for epi's floyd-o-vision which I don't really know what to make of

Epi's Floyd-o-vision is not abnormal. Especially early in games, I've seen him demand votes on a particular player... although usually his stances are based on something more substantive, I've also seen him pull stunts like this regardless of alignment to see who would jump on, who is opposed and why, etc.

Do you think that is what he is doing here with Floyd? He's just focusing on him to gauge reactions?

I think it's partially that, but I think it's also partially that Epi genuinely believes what he's saying and that Floyd isn't (and won't, Epi seems to believe) giving us much to work with. He and DH have had to deal with quite the non-participation in his Star Wars game, and in past games he's hosted (Biblical, for example) and played, there have been similar instances. Epi hates non-participation... so do I. Sometimes I feel just like what he's proposing and I'd love to just lynch low posters on Day 1, but I always am conflicted about it because I hate lynching players based on nothing or very little. But if players have consistently shown in the past to provide nothing or very little and they aren't again, I begin to consider an early lynch of them more so. I can empathize with Epi's thoughts on the matter.

So I definitely think it's a little of A and a little of B.

Does that answer your question?

MovingPictures07 wrote:There's a tone to your posts, JJJ, such as the one expressed above, that I don't know how to interpret. How do you feel about Mac's observation? Do you feel as though you have, to even the smallest degree, spent a disproportionate time on defending yourself or scum hunting?

I think Mac had a mafia read and wanted to talk to me about it, and was annoyed that I was defending myself first -- apparently before he went to sleep (I didn't know he was that pressed for time or I might have put motel room first). I don't feel I've spent too much time defending myself, and when such a large chunk of this thread is currently about me, this is the natural result. I always defend myself thoroughly, with the only exception being Day 7 of Talking Heads when I thought I was a goner and stopped defending myself so I could leave legacy reads (which oddly enough prevented my lynch).

MovingPictures07 wrote:Though I don't completely agree with Mac's assertion, I will admit that I don't really know where you are at with most players at this point in time. A rainbow list or something would assist.

Understandable. I haven't been a fountain of reads like I normally am. I still mean to do some ISOs and I think you'll see some stances arise from those. I've always said that I am a primarily analytic player, and that means when I haven't the time for thorough analysis my reads really do suffer. I have never been the type of player that is comfortable just looking at a thread in proper order and coming to strong reads -- I often don't even read Mafia threads to be honest. I read ISOs and over time they combine to form a complete image in my brain. Without that I am at a disadvantage, and I don't fault people for expecting more than I've produced to this point.

a2thezebra wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:zebra, and anyone else who has currently voted for Diiny, please talk to me about him. I've not been pinged by him all game, except for finding his treatment of Wilgy's gambit suddenly altering his read on Wilgy perplexing (if he is town). I'm struggling to get my head wrapped around why people are calling his behavior mafia.

Every single one of his posts reads as remarkably disingenuous to me, not to mention his lynch was sealed until JJJ brought up Enrique. I try to avoid team theories like most, but come on. That's something. Since you're the minority, I'm curious to hear why you haven't been pinged by him yet.

Difference of perspective, I suppose, since I haven't seen practically anything in his posts that has pinged me as disingenuous. He seems on-meta, and I think he has been trying to legitimately mafia hunt.

Diiny wrote:

TheFloyd73 wrote:

Diiny wrote:

TheFloyd73 wrote:

Diiny wrote:Oh, I thought he was accusing me of that but I guess he was just saying what happened generally?

In which case floyd tell me which of these votes are the most suspicious. Five to choose from.

Epi voting for me, although I think he just has a problem with me which he won't mention.

Motel's vote for Dfaraday is the one the also perplexes me.

I mean of the five votes for enrique.

Epi mentioned the fact that Mac voted for Enrique, despite saying he was "confirmed scum".

Enrique
5
JaggedJimmyJay (11), DrWilgy (12), MovingPictures07 (13), MacDougall (15), Diiny (16)
31%

After that turnaround, after having agreed (er, not disagreed) with Mac's list of "confirmed townies," after witnessing Mac put the deciding vote on Enrique the cop, after all that, you don't have ONE thing to say about MacDougall?

Maybe I'm not so simple minded.

This actually perplexes me for two reasons.
1. What drew Mac to change his mind? (I may need to reread the thread for this).
2. Epi has done his only clever motion this game, but still wants me exterminated.

Epi, what makes you think that Triple J and I have any association with each other?

I'm annoyed that floyd's answer to my question is parroted from the thread, which reminds me of last game. Did he do this in his town games, anyone?

1 makes me feel a TAD better, but I'm saddened that the answer was already in the thread.
Floyd explained 2 in his next post so I'll quote that

I think? I'm not really sure how to read Floyd at all quite yet because his meta seems fairly similar between scum and town games, and he's still fairly new to mafia, although I guess he does have a handful of games under his belt now.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Does that answer your question?

It could. Obviously there is potential for behavior like Epi's to generate responses and discussion which is neat -- similar to random voting stage I guess. I am just not accustomed to that kind of method lasting all of Day 1 without any explanation. Maybe rundontwalk would do it.

Diiny wrote:

TheFloyd73 wrote: You put it on yourself, man. I have no idea what you've got against me, but whatever it is, just share it.

Am I not permitted to call you Epi? Give me a reason not to.

My statement refers to he fact that pointed out that Mac gone against his word but you still want me gone.

this is floyd's best post.

I wouldn't have been happy with anything but a similar response thing to Epi's comment about being called Epi, and he questions epi's stance on him as you'd expect. I'd like to see a bit more ferocity, but going on a per-post makes it better. Not that I'm condoning his low post count and that he seems to still be focusing almost entirely on himself. I doubt he'd have questioned epi if he wasn't crusading against him.

Still a scum read.

I don't understand why this is Floyd's best post. Care to talk with me about this?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Moreover, if there is one characteristic of a town JJJ that you should all know by now it's a total willingness to change my mind with the wind. I don't tunnel and I won't tunnel.

Regarding this point, I agree that the point against you that a 'town JJJ wouldn't change his mind' with respect to your flip on Epi is either a misunderstanding or a mischaracterization.

However, I feel as though this post exemplifies a characteristic I've seen from you this game that I do not feel I typically see of a civilian JJJ, and that I feel I've seen more in the few games I've witnessed you as anti-town. It's hard to describe exactly and I've been having trouble figuring out how to express it... but there's a difference with the diction and sentence wording with you this game. For example, in the above post, I get the feeling that you're implying that we should town read you because you're not tunneling.

I don't mean to imply anyone should town read me because I "backtracked" on Epi. I mean to imply that it's a poor reason to mafia-read me. I don't think people who are long-term familiar with my play would be able to make an accusation of that because it's just a part of who I am.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Does that make sense? Is there any way you can address my concern here? I realize it's a bit abstract and up to my interpretation of your words, but there's something distinctly different about you this game and I cannot for the life of me get on the same page with you yet.

Does anyone else know what I'm talking about or am I alone here?

I can't know exactly what you're talking about in this sort of vague language, but I can guess. I probably do sound different in some ways this game -- more volatile and angry perhaps. I've noted it in my own content at least, and that is probably just RL fatigue leaking into my posts. I'm playing a very frank, give-no-shits game right now, primarily because I don't have time to play with the painstaking care that might normally be associated with me. I haven't done a single ISO yet. I've been One of the Guys instead of The Spotlight. These are all willfull and direct results of Talking Heads. I'm not sure people fully understand how much that game took out of me (1,450 posts and the average word count in them was sky-high), I am still running on close to empty weeks later. I considered not playing for this reason, but I hated to keep endorsing these heist games without actually playing one.

Both of your responses are satisfactory. Thanks much!

Regarding the first, I agree with you completely.

Regarding the second, that makes sense, and strikes me as reasonable. I hope you don't feel as though I am exhibiting unfair pressure upon you; I'm just trying to express my concerns in the way I best can.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:There's a tone to your posts, JJJ, such as the one expressed above, that I don't know how to interpret. How do you feel about Mac's observation? Do you feel as though you have, to even the smallest degree, spent a disproportionate time on defending yourself or scum hunting?

I think Mac had a mafia read and wanted to talk to me about it, and was annoyed that I was defending myself first -- apparently before he went to sleep (I didn't know he was that pressed for time or I might have put motel room first). I don't feel I've spent too much time defending myself, and when such a large chunk of this thread is currently about me, this is the natural result. I always defend myself thoroughly, with the only exception being Day 7 of Talking Heads when I thought I was a goner and stopped defending myself so I could leave legacy reads (which oddly enough prevented my lynch).

MovingPictures07 wrote:Though I don't completely agree with Mac's assertion, I will admit that I don't really know where you are at with most players at this point in time. A rainbow list or something would assist.

Understandable. I haven't been a fountain of reads like I normally am. I still mean to do some ISOs and I think you'll see some stances arise from those. I've always said that I am a primarily analytic player, and that means when I haven't the time for thorough analysis my reads really do suffer. I have never been the type of player that is comfortable just looking at a thread in proper order and coming to strong reads -- I often don't even read Mafia threads to be honest. I read ISOs and over time they combine to form a complete image in my brain. Without that I am at a disadvantage, and I don't fault people for expecting more than I've produced to this point.

Makes sense, fair enough. Regarding the underlined, however, do you think that this fact, combined with Mac's assertion, could indicate that people are more likely to town read someone with a significant amount of heat on them if that person engages the thread and is perceived to be more actively mafia hunting than if they instead spend what the thread perceives as a disproportionate amount of time defending themselves?

I've seen this sentiment expressed before -- Llama always says it's better to attack and not defend when you're under pressure, and seems to think it is alignment-indicative (typically civilian for the former, typically mafia for the latter). Would you agree or disagree and why?

Also, I anxiously await your reads... I'm going to work on mine now.

MovingPictures07 wrote:I've seen this sentiment expressed before -- Llama always says it's better to attack and not defend when you're under pressure, and seems to think it is alignment-indicative (typically civilian for the former, typically mafia for the latter). Would you agree or disagree and why?

I would disagree. I understand the sentiment, but it's a double-edged sword. Accusers don't change their minds easily, and "you didn't address my accusation!" is a constant reason why. Townies trying to avoid a lynch must be conscious of this just as much as mafia trying to avoid a lynch.

The best option is to attack and defend. If time will only permit one of the two, then I would choose attack over defense. That's not the case for me right now.

Day 2 MP rainbow list:

Epignosis

DrWilgy
MacDougall

Diiny

DFaraday
motel room
TheFloyd73

a2thezebra
JaggedJimmyJay

FZ.

Voting FZ.

I'm having trouble sorting out the five reads above FZ.; there are separate interpretations of zebra and JJJ that have given me reason to suspect them, and I think I find zebra more suspicious / potentially opportunistic based on specific actions (observations I pointed out on Day 1, then her voting for JJJ after Epi's case, then abandoning it now when it seems to have comparatively lost traction to a degree). However, I disagree with JJJ that his attack on Epi wasn't opportunistic; I felt as though Epi was making himself somewhat of an easier target given his laser focus on a Floyd lynch.

Despite suspecting zebra and JJJ, I feel partially that it's a bit unfair to place DFaraday, motel room, and Floyd considerably above them, due to the fact that those players have less substantive content, and part of me feels as though I've had an opportunity to scrutinize (either rightfully or tinfoiling) zebra and JJJ's behavior more than them. However, when I ask myself how I would vote in preference, it nonetheless reads like this at this moment.

I'm also having trouble distinctly sorting my views regarding DFaraday, motel room, and TheFloyd73, and I'm getting a bit nervous about my lack of opinion on any of them.

Consequently, I'm going to focus on those players when I return (since I've been here too long).

If you're still taking requests for ISOs, JJJ, please note a2thezebra, DFaraday, FZ., motel room, and TheFloyd73 as higher priority from my point of view. When I return, as I mentioned above I'll try looking into them myself, but my time is limited and I doubt I'll get to properly ISO them. I know yours is as well, so if you do get to them I appreciate it.

And I really need to get back to studying... I'll be back an hour or so out from EoD at the absolute latest, I think. See you folks later.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I felt your treatment of Floyd was incongruent with the content he'd produced. To have either a strong desire to defend Floyd or a strong desire to lynch Floyd based on his Day 1 made no sense to me, so naturally I had to question why you were standing for the latter. It's why I even implied some part of me was viewing the two of you as mafia team mates.

I would say you were a Floyd defender Day 1. Reading through what you had to say:

-My vote for Floyd was policy-oriented
-It isn't a good idea to "metagame" Floyd when he has three posts
-My vote for Floyd was close to being a random vote, and I oppose random voting
-My "crusade" against Floyd is based upon what strikes you as close to nothing

None of those things are strong defenses of Floyd from you. Rather, all of those things are subtle defenses of Floyd on your part.

After those subtle defenses of Floyd, you turn around to say:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'm tempted to call you and Floyd as team mates. I don't like to build mafia teams without getting a dead one first though.

Now Floyd is bad, and I am his teammate.

That's posturing. If Floyd goes down as bad, you would have already called dibs on the theory that I was throwing a teammate under the bus.

EBWOP: I forgot to mention that within each group the players are listed alphabetically.

Now I'll BBL.

ISO me and Diiny MP, and I dare you to still have Diiny higher than me on your list when you're finished.

Epignosis wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:That's posturing. If Floyd goes down as bad, you would have already called dibs on the theory that I was throwing a teammate under the bus.

Perhaps a better term than "strong desire to defend Floyd" would be "strong inclination to town read Floyd". Yes, I did defend Floyd to some degree because I didn't think his attacker could justify his attacks. I never called him a town read though. I never gave any actual read of him, because on Day 1 having a read on Floyd would have been bullshit.

As for dibs, you're damned right. You said the same thing about me. If he's bad, see you then.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

TheFloyd73 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Diiny wrote:Me too. Why can't you talk about the potential baddie influence on lynching the cop AND be interested in floyd?

Why "can't?"

Is there some restriction on me?

I'll talk about what I like. I have nothing to say about it.

I want to lynch FLOYD.

What is wrong with you? Seriously, tell me.

Anyway, another needless "last minute lynch switch" (it's got another name, I know, I can't be bothered remembering it). Diiny

Linki- I agree FZ, this game is getting pretty awful.

Floyd, I don't recall any thoughts you've made on Diiny to explain your vote here or previously. Care to provide some insight?

Voted Enrique, inconsistent chat (my reason for voting on day one is an example).

FZ. wrote:Whoa, you people managed to talk a lot while I was sleeping. It's a good thing it's internet pages and not real paper. So many trees would die...

I have no idea what the hell Diiny wants from zebra. At some point, I lost interest in that conversation. I'm not sure I find Diiny suspicious for that, but this whole Wilgy Diiny craziness is interesting.

DrWilgy wrote:Also, for those of you who think I wouldn't use my check on Diiny vs someone else, Diiny killed me in TH. That was my reason for the check.

Ok Diiny. Since you can't get the fact that I checked you, what do you think of MP's plan?

Last game I was the cop and MP didn't ask me who I wanted to target on day 0, I just got a name and alliance. This is a MM game, so I'm not sure they work the same though.

But if Wilgy is the cop, I can't see him outing himself so blatantly, unless he figures that one in the bag is worth the risk, and if he tries to hint with subtlety, the mafia will know who he is anyway. This way, if there's a doctor out there, he'll know who to protect.
Not sure I buy this theory myself, but the other possibility is that Wilgy is just trying to stir the game and encourage conversation. In any case, I like it a lot better than the Diiny-zebra back and forth

Somewhat belabored first post. I've yellow-highlighted a couple bits in which FZ was vocally dismissive of the Zebra/Diiny interaction of Day 1 because I don't understand why she felt this way. Why was that interaction of less interest to you than anything else that had been posted to that point? It's an odd thing to emphasize, particularly when one of the players involved is also involved in a different dynamic that did tickle her fancy.

I also orange-highlighted FZ casting doubt on Doc's cop claim. This is more intuitive so y'all may or may not agree, but I think the mafia team were more likely to feel the need to cast public doubt on Doc's cop claim than townies were. They're the ones under pressure to get that right ASAP and have a personal motive to cop hunt -- even if blatantly (there'd been no mafia BTSC yet).
Not a great post. She clearly had doubts about Doc's honesty as the real cop, and apparently has town read Diiny elsewhere in the thread. This is not an inspiring vote.
This highlighted portion is something Sorsha brought up a couple of times. I believe it's a reference to the Dune game? Anyone else who participated in that game that hasn't already commented on this matter really ought to do so. FZ apparently got some reads wrong in that game, seemingly reads that were apparent to other players, and she refers back to those mistakes to justify her willingness to vote for Doc's red peek in this game.

Zebra, Mac, Epi, anyone else from Dune... what do you think of this?
Yellow: These statements are separated in the language but go together in the logic -- and it's bad logic. Perhaps manipulative. Diiny flipping town would not immediately imply that Wilgy is mafia. If Wilgy is town and Diiny is town, then I'd imagine the mafia team was salivating at the chance to get them both lynched in succession. If.

Orange: I don't get it. This bit ends with "why?", but FZ answered her own question in the preceding sentence. Is it beyond belief that Wilgy might hard bus a mafia mate to gain significant credit?
The answer is rather obvious, I should think. Placing enough trust in another player on Day 1 to vote along with him despite having otherwise town read the target of his crusade is a big pill to swallow.
I was waiting for FZ to acknowledge a possible town angle for Wilgy's behavior. This is it, and it's emotive. A feel a little tug of town in my gut, like she'd be less likely to deliver this sort of scold if she were posting from a position of deception.
I don't follow why three civilian lynches would be the likely product in this situation (I'd understand two). Apart from that specific number though I am somewhat appreciative of FZ's frank assessment of Wilgy's methods. I think she's wrong about the strategy here, but that doesn't mean she's bad.
*involuntary eye twitch*
Another reference to Dune. I reiterate my call for players in that game to report on her play in it and how they feel about her references to it in this game as justification.
I can't fault her for reading Epi similarly to me. The highlighted bit is a pretty distinct read though, I am not sure how she could have this sort of intuition about Epi's defense. FZ, what made you feel this way?
Perhaps the most dramatic reaction to the cop lynch aside arguably from Floyd's.
Yellow: I dunno, I may have misunderstood you a lot. I don't think that ought to be suspicious. It doesn't have to mean you weren't clear either. Sometimes meanings just aren't understood.

Orange: Valid observation. I am skeptical that Doc had any inclination that Enrique was the cop (by "drawing him out"), but it could still be seen as a measured move to eliminate his most vocal foe. We'll have to re-examine Doc's stated reasons for getting off of the Diiny train to gauge that theory.
FZ's entire game has largely been DrWilgy-centric, begrudgingly trusting him on Day 1 and staunchly opposing him on Day 2. While her Day 1 willingness to work with him is hard to understand, I wouldn't call her stances inconsistent -- she spent the whole of Day 1 saying she thought Doc was bad if he was lying. So it makes sense for her to have tunnel vision on him right now.

The highlighted portion is not ideal though. I rarely like it when people are willing to vocalize their own voting discomfort quite like this (there's a memorable incident with scum Sloonei doing this on RYM). I can understand being uncomfortable, and some part of me felt the same way when I left my vote on Enrique before having to bail the thread way early on Day 1. But I still endorsed his lynch because it was my biggest suspicion, as it appears to be for FZ. One has to decide whether her hesitation is caused by a mafia-inclined unwillingness to take responsibility for a strong stance, or a town-inclined uncertainty in a game she seems to have been struggling with at various points.

~~~

Overall, I'm annoyed to have such a mixed bag. There are numerous negatives here and a few things that make me feel better about her too. I don't think she's the clear cut Best Lynch that some others seem to be branding her to be, but I also don't think she can be a town read. If I were to rainbow, I think she'd be orange.

MovingPictures07 wrote:If you're still taking requests for ISOs, JJJ... DFaraday...

The one post I made imploring him to follow through on his pledge to catch up and comment was my DFaraday ISO. There are three posts in there, I can't do anything with that read unfortunately. He'll be dead neutral until I have more.

I could GTH him -- it'd be town. Only because town is more likely than mafia and he has a history of lurking.

Sorry I stopped, went to get dinner and played some prof. layton with the gf. Back now. Saw this, though:

TheFloyd73 wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote: Floyd, I don't recall any thoughts you've made on Diiny to explain your vote here or previously. Care to provide some insight?

Voted Enrique, inconsistent chat (my reason for voting on day one is an example).

Are you serious? I guess I didn't write my rant out for nothing.

Diiny wrote:Tell me categorically and for everyone to see: how is a self preservation vote from someone who knows they're town 'needless'? Are you telling me you'd rather die if you had the option to lynch someone who could be scum? I expect a reply to this.

inb4 no response until tomorrow

TheFloyd73 ISO

Before I reference individual posts I will say one thing: I don't think his post history looks anything like it did in Talking Heads. That could be good meta, or maybe he's just more comfortable in general regardless of role. Anyway...
Opens with a little snark. I like the attitude Floyd (more in terms of your comfort level than as an actual read).
Floyd is clearly displeased with Diiny on Day 1. I don't think his reaction here is warranted, but I also don't find it suspicious. There's a distinct tone of in this post that I think can be associated with an indignant townie. It's a small point though.
I believe Diiny gave Floyd some crap for making a read in this game after someone else had already made the same read. This highlighted portion shows Floyd lamenting about that very frustration well before that, and I think it reads genuinely. Diiny, what do you think of this?
I think Floyd's brevity here rubbed some people the wrong way and I can understand why, but I don't agree. He was clearly not keen on Diiny early in the game, and Mac called Diiny a top mafia read. The other names probably aren't as important to him with that single point of agreement in mind. Floyd, you should tell me whether I'm wrong about that.
The last few things are all from the same multi-quote post brought together. This time the brevity is a bit more problematic, because we haven't been told yet why Floyd was down on FZ and Wilgy. He took stances though and named suspects. At this point I think he has already well surpassed his early output in Talking Heads in terms of depth.
Yeah, that's dramatic. I'm not quite as bugged by this kind of thing as Diiny is, but I could still do without it.
Floyd is referring to "CFD" here, which was discussed a bit in Talking Heads. The language here is also rather dramatic -- it's a trend in Floyd's posts. I went to Dune to compare, but I see he was part of "The Emperor" faction. Were they good? Bad? Indy? Anyway he seemed less dramatic there but still posted the same Planet of the Apes gif.
Also dramatic. I don't know if he's exaggerating or is just flustered to be dealing with Epignosis.
This suggests it was the latter.
I'm no longer concerned about the dramatic language at least when he's talking to/about Epignosis. The "Epi" thing is a reasonable inspiration for dramatic language.

~~~

Though the content is limited, I think he seems pretty genuine in that he is conveying earnest irritation, and that he does seem to be trying. More substantive reads would be great though.

DrWilgy wrote:Diiny, the reason why I was so concerned about Enriques claim is because I had thought that I still had time to switch. Because of that thought, I had a good amount of time during the night to regret and think about my reaction with the mentality of "I could've done something different."

Why didn't you just say this in the first place?

MacDougall wrote: Floyd, man just surely not? He's looking scummy again now that he's made some posts but surely, just surely not. He can't be scum again. If we were playing roulette or blackjack I'd put all my chips on it. Chance cannot be that cruel? I think he'd have probably replaced out if he was bad again too. But, he really does look bad. Ick. Floyd please be civ and play like it if you are. Google some advice or something.

Unfortunately, I have no extremely strong feelings about anybody. My vote for now is going on Motel Room. It could go on Epignosis or DFaraday by days end unless I see a scum tell that turns out to be wrong with 15 minutes left to go and contribute to another civ lynch by lynching a town read.

The floyd paragraph is an annoying blip on an otherwise solid town game. Mac, are you admitting that you're being fallacious but that your gut still says he's not scum, or are you just genuinely relying on the gambler's fallacy here?

The latter paragraph would also annoy me but floyd then goes pretty hard on Motel which I like. I'll comment on Motel soon probably as that part of the thread comes up next iirc

MacDougall wrote:Here's a good reason that DFaraday is bad. He's been here but he hasn't pushed anybody for an actual reason despite being more or less caught up. He just stated two mild looks. Why wouldn't he at least ask a question in the minute he put in today so far? Why didn't he try to be civ at all?

Yeah, he looks like he's trying to look caught up rather than trying to play mafia.

MacDougall wrote: [Motel Room's] vote is on a scummy looking lurker right now after having a fluffy interaction with the guy on day 1. An alignment of either a) distancing or b) putting his vote on an easy out.

I liked the vote when I saw him make it tbh, I thought it was good of him to put some pressure on a lurker. It's sat there for far too long, though, and there's been very little pressure put on anyone else. Motel room is getting an iso before the day is done.

Diiny wrote:

TheFloyd73 wrote: You put it on yourself, man. I have no idea what you've got against me, but whatever it is, just share it.

Am I not permitted to call you Epi? Give me a reason not to.

My statement refers to he fact that pointed out that Mac gone against his word but you still want me gone.

this is floyd's best post.

I wouldn't have been happy with anything but a similar response thing to Epi's comment about being called Epi, and he questions epi's stance on him as you'd expect. I'd like to see a bit more ferocity, but going on a per-post makes it better. Not that I'm condoning his low post count and that he seems to still be focusing almost entirely on himself. I doubt he'd have questioned epi if he wasn't crusading against him.

Still a scum read.

You actually make a very good point here. With my inexperienced and (self-confessed) awful Mafia skills, I do tend to focus on myself. I've done it on other games as well, I know. Epi's played in the same games as me a couple of times, so he's picked up the style of my generally awful play.

What I'm about to explain can prove Epi to be either town or scum, but what you decide it up to you.

You've got to pick up the easy meat with your eyes closed.

(I'm a Floyd fan, what do you expect?)

If Epi is scum, he's trying to rid of the easy meat (AKA me) to make a jump start on us.
If Epi is town, he's trying to rid of the easy meat (AKA me) as he assumes I'm an easy scum target.

Anyway, thanks for the compliment Diiny.

a2thezebra wrote:He looks too bad. I know that's kind of a cop-out on my part, but I have trouble supporting the lynch of a player whose actions seem too dangerous and too overtly transparent for a baddie to make. I'm in kind of the same place with Wilgy, although in Wilgy's case his actions are pure WIFOM whereas with motel room I think I could be more easily convinced that he's more likely low-key scum than bizarre town. Time will tell.

So, this point makes me feel a lot of feelings.

On one hand I disagree with the too bad to be bad argument. On the other hand, the logic I found odd about Wilgy's wifomminess not being an issue for zeb is used kinda fluently here which makes me think it's more likely that zeb actually believes it.

motel room ISO
I mean no offense to motel room when I say that this question seems rather dense. Whether Wilgy is town or mafia, I think it's pretty clear what benefits he might potentially enjoy as a result of his lie. It looks a bit like filler.
I think this post will be important later. Bookmark it.
I'm mildly fond of these. I think this manner of a'ight bro well here's some suspicion out of the blue is within motel room's town boundaries.
This is probably his worst post for me; I agree with Mac that it's not great. I could understand viewing Enrique's treatment of Doc and Diiny dubiously (I did), but I don't see why switching his vote between his suspects was a crime. Townies do this all the time. This might be a manufactured attack.
Valid question.
I like motel room adopting an "edgy" read because he's never been afraid to disagree with popular opinion -- it's one of his best town traits. His self-awareness is also appealing. My only question here is why motel room felt the need to announce the edgy read and its edginess.
I told you the reader to bookmark the earlier post because I knew this one was coming. I think they combine to evidence a pretty solid town-inclined mindset for motel room. He had this distinct thought in mind: that MP pulled a fake red peek in [maybe] his first open setup with legal infodumping. Let's return to the bookmarked post:
On Day 1, when confronted with Wilgy's fake red peek maneuver, motel room had the presence of mind to ask him this specific highlighted question: "have you played an infodumping-allowed game before?" This means that in this moment motel room was recalling what MP did in RYM #89 (faked a red peek as a vanilla townie) and applying that memory to Wilgy's move in this game. This looks like a very real effort to get a read on Wilgy based upon real data in motel room's personal Mafia arsenal. I love it.

~~~

Overall, there are a few moments that I'd question but I think he looks good in light of the bookmarked point. I welcome any dissenting perspectives -- I'd really like to know what MP thinks of motel room in light of this. And Diiny, since he also played in RYM #89.

I also really like that last Floyd post. If y'all gush them town tells then we can still have a chance in this mess via process of elimination.

a2thezebra wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Zebra, can you summarize why you feel my stated suspicion of Epi was opportunistic? I don't think I could have chosen a more difficult "opportunity" if that's the case -- Epi always bites back.

Epi always bites back but not always convincingly. After all, I perceived his initial vote of you to be an OMGUS with no meat behind it. I think your suspicion of Epi was opportunistic because your were making out criticisms that were not alignment-indicative to be criticisms that made Epi look bad.

You keep saying this and I am not sure there is a plausible response other than "we disagree". While those things might be more applicable to Epi than to other people (I really haven't played with him that many times), I'd find them suspicious from most players and I made my case.

If you don't think it's alignment-indicative content then fine. I did.