[END] Talking Heads Mafia (RYM #90)

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm doing a Russ/Bullzeye review to test my confidence.

[Marmot]

(if you really insist, I received clearence to talk in more detail)

I could use a little of this juicy goss though. If you can help me to exonerate MM then I agree the suspect pool becomes exactly the size it must be for town to win. Try to share what you can without infringing upon your own desire for secrecy too much.

Maybe even give me a Top Secret Code to crack.

Naw, I checked the sentences I would post with the judges and they're good to go. It doesn't have to do with secrecy, either, because it stems from the game (lynch results, role interpretation), in this case.

I'd just like to ask MM first if he's ok with this.

I think this could be the civilians' last chance at a successful lynch, so all the cards on the table are fine with me.

[Marmot]

And because I like voting early, JaggedJimmyJay.

[Marmot]

Two nights in a row that Take Me to the River failed to remove someone from the poll. That makes it more likely that it was Strawhenge.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

And because I like voting early, JaggedJimmyJay.

You're going to understand why I pushed against you suddenly on Day 11 soon enough. If that has you perturbed, I urge you to take a step back and reconsider everything I did in that sequence.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Day 12*

[Marmot]

And because I like voting early, JaggedJimmyJay.

You're going to understand why I pushed against you suddenly on Day 11 soon enough. If that has you perturbed, I urge you to take a step back and reconsider everything I did in that sequence.

Funnily enough, it has nothing to do with that. :P

I need a little time to think though. I just recalled the instance of seaside going after you, Diiny, and espers from early on, probably from his role power. There might be something there to clear one of you and Diiny as civilian, and even a very specific civilian role.

[Marmot]

Also, Ricochet voted right off the bat today. That has me worried.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

And because I like voting early, JaggedJimmyJay.

You're going to understand why I pushed against you suddenly on Day 11 soon enough. If that has you perturbed, I urge you to take a step back and reconsider everything I did in that sequence.

Funnily enough, it has nothing to do with that. :P

I need a little time to think though. I just recalled the instance of seaside going after you, Diiny, and espers from early on, probably from his role power. There might be something there to clear one of you and Diiny as civilian, and even a very specific civilian role.

Please consider my behavior at almost every EOD and perhaps my most consistent plea/call-to-alert.

[Ricochet]

And because I like voting early, JaggedJimmyJay.

You put Diiny bottom read and lynch priority. What's the hold up?

I told ya townies to stop fighting and focus on baddies.

[Ricochet]

I think this could be the civilians' last chance at a successful lynch, so all the cards on the table are fine with me.

Very well.

I think MM is And She Was.

If he is, I've calculated that he had four Lynch phases without receiving a vote, so he started D12 with -4. Meaning the actual tally was MM = 1, motel = 2, and that's why motel got lynched.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Russtifinko on Bullzeye:

Spoiler: show

I have no interest in lynching Matt F. I am inclined to think he is incorrect about Mac, but I don't think he has malicious intent.

Same. Matt practically always comes out with the most ridiculous conspiracies and follows them until his dying breath, but it doesn't make him bad. If anything I think he does it more when he's a civ.

Reposting this because I meant to include it in my "Responses to JJJ" post.

Bullzeye seconded my read on Matt's behavior re: Mac and Russ thirded it.

Spoiler: show

Oooh, good job on Floyd! And yay bonus day!

I will be quickly looking over Russ again, what is the case against him since he has been a candidate for lynches and I can't seem to recall what the suscpioun is based on.

So this is a super good point. As far I know (and I admit I have skipped 2-3 pages at this point due my early night yesterday and stuff going on today), there isn't even anything resembling a case against me. The closest we've come is Matt F rereading me, and he came out feeling positive. And somehow, despite that, I got 3 votes yesterday, putting me in the realm of possible lynchdom. MM voted me without listing any reason whatsoever, he just bolds my name. motel room is NO Uing me, and his is the BEST vote I got. I have no clue whatsoever where Bullzeye's vote came from. It's really not sporting. If you actually suspect me and want me lynched, the burden should be on you to bring some type of evidence, however weak, against me. If you're not gonna do that, get off my lawn and go after actual baddies.

This is all the way on Day 9. The interaction was pretty dead on Russ's end for the majority of the game. This highlighted portion shows Russ getting cranky about Bullzeye's vote, suggesting it is unfounded and/or inspired by weak evidence -- but he doesn't suspect Bullzeye for it. He just tells him off. "Go after actual baddies".

Spoiler: show

RIP Elo and sig.

Day 9 has ended. Elohcin has been killed by ?????. She was Animals.

No surprise there. RIP Elohcin.

No surprise? I was surprised. Why not be surprised about a kill from a Shadowy Figure coming in right before the Day ends??

I reviewed your case on Bullzeye, Epi. I think you raise good points, particularly Bullzeye's awkward piggybacking of my Day 2 (?) beef with Golden. It's inconsistent with his prior stated civ read on Golden, and it also makes no sense for him to have the same mindset about Golden that I had when my mindset was completely based on my own interaction with Golden. Bullzeye can't exist inside my head.

It'd be groovy if anyone else who knows anything about Bullzeye's style could confirm/refute this:

Now this is something I want to emphasize: In my experience, when Bullzeye is called bad, his retorts can be caustic and nerve-wracking to the accuser. I went against him a few times and he breathed fire through the Internet.

because his tame treatment of Mac's accusations was something that I found curious as well.

I have played with Bullz a number of times, and mainly when he's been a baddie, I believe. The one thing I remember well is that he gets HYPER defensive over relatively little things, and generally over defends himself and convinces everyone he's bad. Iirc he's had some pretty spectacular flameouts as a baddie.

Epi suggested Bullzeye's tame treatement of accusations was off-town-meta. Russ provided his take here, and it is actually the opposite assertion that Bullzeye has a tendency to become a firecracker when accused as a mafioso. This turned out false at least in this game, and this post can be identified as a soft defense of a sort.

Here's another post on the same topic. He finds an example of Bullzeye being a mafioso in which he didn't "overreact", but still provided a "strongly worded retort" to suspicion. This is another soft-defense on a very specific premise, even if Russ didn't qualify it as being a defense. He also moved on to join the suspicion against Fuzz in the same post.

Spoiler: show

Finally home. I'm going to jump right back into my project here, but if y'all have pressing concerns for me just stick 'em in my face and I'll try to maintain dialogue as a I go. My focus will be on ISOmania though.

Wait, JJJ is going to post MORE of those enormous cases?? Lord ha' mercy.

So, my reread of Bullz:

He's a hard guy to get a read on, and that's largely because he's interacted with very few players during the game. He basically votes me as a default option ever since he joined, based on a case FZ. made on Day 2. He hasn't really added anything to his suspicion of me since. He started out thinking Sorsha was bad, but came around to thinking she was good and ended up defending her by voting Devin (though he never expressed an opinion about Devin). He was accused of trying to discredit Golden, but insisted that he was only disagreeing with him. He did talk with Matt F and JJJ some, and in the past 2 days he's been interacting more with people because a number of cases have come out against him.

So not counting responses to recent cases, I count what I'd consider significant interactions with 5 players. (Of course that is subjective.) Reading through his content, it feel like, even more than Choutas, he's content to develop a read and then stick to it, without seeming to really update much. To be fair, he has posted a number of times about being super duper busy, which I sympathize with. To me his behavior looks potentially SK-ish, because he doesn't put a huge amount of effort into developing reads. (Not trying to say this in a mean way at all. I feel a little bad about how I worded my thoughts on his baddie play style yesterday. Again, Bullz, I mean no insult at all, yesterday or today, and I always love playing with you, sincerely. I just perceive you as scum hunting to a lesser degree than most this game, and think it might be indicative of a role that doesn't care who is or isn't scum.)

Linki: Diiny, which shenanigans? Info dumps? I'm always against them, categorically. When info dumps have happened in previous games, I've decided to play as closely as I could to pretending they never happened. (See Mikhail Rasputin in the X-Men game for an example of me doing that and people hating it. Luckily I was immune to lynches!)

Did you see my post asking you for your current suspicions? Any definitive ideas on specific players?

Yellow: Common way to start a sentence about a team mate.

Orange: Observations suitable to quantify the contributions of Bullzeye without really amounting to a read (beyond "SK" [see green] which is always a hard pill to swallow) -- neutral reviewing.

Green: Specifically draws a comparison between Bullzeye and Choutas which vaguely makes Choutas look worse (the day Choutas was lynched).

Spoiler: show

Oh! But before I go, a strangely (I think, anyway) noncommittal thing from Bullz:

Bullz is here! Bullz, look at my case on Rico. A lot different then my "wild theories", am I right?

It certainly isn't wild. Or crazy. Some of it is even reasonable. I dunno how I feel about it personally though, I like and dislike it. I would have to think on it more to reach a satisfactory conclusion.

You're killin' me smalls.

Well, I mean, I know Crazy Matt very well. Sane Matt I'm not as familiar with. The fact I think your case isn't Crazy must mean something right? I expected you'd be happy that I don't think you're insane for a change.

So I think he doesn't want to offer tons of opinions so he can't be held to task for them later. Doesn't speak super well in my book.

First time I think Russ makes a distinctly negative post about Bullzeye, still on Day 10. It's a small accusation as opposed to a comprehensive case -- that Bullzeye was being a bit noncommittal.

Spoiler: show

Diiny J3 still wants me lynched. This time he's specified the reason down just the Floyd interaction. As an aside, J3, you don't know how funny it is that you're crediting all of these "great townie mindsets" to a supposedly scum Fuzz. My scum game is pretty poor. Just got a chuckle out of that.

J3, weird question, but could you tell me your cleanest 3 players? Excluding yourself, of course.

Wilgy voted to break my tie and save me, so from a purely personal perspective I almost have to believe he's civilian at this point.

If the other person on that tie had been a baddie, I'd agree with you 100%, Fuzz. But I think it's very dangerous for you to assume someone is a civ just because they saved you, when the day's lynch resulted in another civ dying.

I've been thinking something about recent Bullzeye content: he's been responsive, but not productive. By that I mean he has made the effort necessary to address points about him and in some cases about general discussion -- but it's been a while since he has produced something truly original in this game.

I said this already. If only you read as much as you wrote...

Linki: He's been asking tons of questions, but making very few statements. I get the same vibe as Bullz from him, that he's trying not to leave tracks, although his quantity is clearly higher than Bullz's. Add that to the fact that he clearly doesn't remember Day 7 despite playing a major part in it, and I don't think it's a good look at all.

Highlighted bit: Russ, were you frustrated that I swooped in and stole away the town credit you fought for?

The linki here is about Diiny. Russ compares his content to Bullzeye's, but uses stronger language to attack him: "not a good look at all".

Spoiler: show

It's 3-3-3 on Bullzeye, Choutas and I (assuming Russ follows through on that vote he reckons he cast), I wonder what happens in the next couple hours.

Oh crap, thanks!

Bullz will tell Russ to stay low and vote for MM. Bullz will wait until the last minute to put the final vote. Seriously watch it unfold. I'm leaving. My work here is done. Nice game everyone.

You caught us; good sleuthing. Reeeeeeally tough to figure out that I'm going to vote motel room, whom I've voted the past 2 days and already posted that I intended to vote today. Just forgot to actually put it up. And yes, it's likely Bullz won't vote for himself, that being against the rules and all.

I don't see a potential civ motivation in that post. If Choutas is bad, he just fed us all a WIFOM-burger, and if he's civ he made the world's worst case: 1) Say obvious things that will happen. 2) Say those things make me and Bullz bad, when in my case they don't in the slightest. Choutas, you could be right on Bullz, but the better play here would be going hard after someone you really think is bad for TODAY, not setting up tomorrow's result in advance. If you want my vote on Bullz, convince me why he's a better case than motel.

motel room

The highlighted thing presents what was probably an impossible challenge to Choutas. At that point in the game, Russ was tunneling so hard on motel room that I don't think Choutas moving mountains would have been enough to sell Russ on a Bullzeye vote. So that he said this to the same guy he was throwing shade at from a distance as he was about to be lynched reads a little manipulative.

Spoiler: show

convince me why he's a better case than motel.

motel room

What's your case on me again there pal? That I was ok with a lynch of jjj but that I said he was probably town?

Now that you think its obvious that jjj is town and the suspicion on him has passed for now, have I tried to have him lynched or done anything to suggest that what I said back then was just exactly what I was thinking? Explain it from a scum angle please.

Yeah, easy way to push for a JJJ lynch without seeming to do so. He's clearly a major threat to the baddies, and he was close enough to dying that a comment like yours could easily have swung it if anyone had agreed with you. And then when it blew over it was easy for you to back off. Not sure what's hard to see about this.

Choutas, I'm not buying your defense at all. You're giving up, but throwing out names to see what sticks. Your case on me is I'm Bullz's teammate because I forgot to place my vote after declaring it. If you honestly think I'm bad and want to do something worthwhile with your time, build a case on me to convince people. You're not doing that, and it makes me feel better about where the poll is. You, Bullz, and motel all look terrible to me right now.

I'm off to bed.

Linki: haha Choutas, you are either the world's worst or best predictor of votes, I'm not sure which. Bullzeye is from England, so it's 4am where he is. You're right that he's unlikely to vote you right now, he probably forgot to place it.

When Russ voices suspicion of Bullzeye, he tends to do so in couplets or triplets with other names.

Spoiler: show

RIP Choutas.

Rico, I'm in a similar state to yours. I really thought Choutas would flip bad based on what he was saying at EOD. And every single player has major points for and against them now, LC voters probably more than most.

To me it's looking increasingly likely that baddies just distributed their votes elsewhere on D2. That seems the smarter move, because with the final tally what it was, 3 additional baddies would've had to vote bcornett for it not be revealed that LC was Flowers. That is a lot of baddies to all be voting together that early in the game, and they probably figured the risk was too big.

JJJ, I personally don't find the scum spew analysis super valuable. No offense meant here, but it reads like you go into it with your read on a player, mention how the mafia has brought that player up, and state that whatever was said solidifies your read. I know I was the one who asked you to look at more obscure things, but it just feels like a reach when I read it. That said, maybe I'm also reading it with bias since I think motel room is bad and you don't. I also think MM's move off of motel room makes motel look worse in addition to MM. If one of them is bad, I'd bet dimes to dollars the other is.

Reading Rico's post does convince me that Bullz and Fuzz (and all non-bcornett or LC voters from D2) are worth a closer look.

Here's another couplet. He also grants Bullzeye is "worth a closer look" despite having just said he "looks terrible" in the previous post. This looks rather fake.

Russ counters my assertion that motel room was a low-hanging fruit and without actually saying it seems to imply Bullzeye should have that title.

Russ didn't truly pursue a Bullzeye lynch until the end of Day 11 when he placed the 5th of 5 votes during his imminent lynch. I award you no town points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Bullzeye on Russtifinko:

There's a ton of content, so just check his ISO yourself and do some CTRL+Fing for "Russ".

Spoiler: show

I am putting a vote onto Russ, based on what MacDougall said. I really don't have the time to catch up fully and form a solid opinion right now. Voting for Russ is the best I can do.

Black Rock replaced AceofSpaces. This was one of AceofSpaces' only two posts of the game before he subbed out, in which he followed a known teammate's suspicion to vote Russti, being the second vote on him and about an hour before the deadline.

I asked Mac if he wanted to lynch Russti, who had quickly gained four votes, and was looking like a decent lynch candidate (trailing birdwithteeth 4-7). Instead, Mac left his vote on the less popular reywas (now RadicalFuzz).

These things considered, I think Russtifinko is mafia.

Finally someone agrees!

This looks quite fake.

~~~

Yeah, in terms of Bullzeye interactivity at least I think Russ looks very mafia-compatible. I'll revisit my prior spew checks that turned out decent looks for him and decide whether I was a pile of wrong before.

[Ricochet]

And because I like voting early, JaggedJimmyJay.

You're going to understand why I pushed against you suddenly on Day 11 soon enough. If that has you perturbed, I urge you to take a step back and reconsider everything I did in that sequence.

Funnily enough, it has nothing to do with that. :P

I need a little time to think though. I just recalled the instance of seaside going after you, Diiny, and espers from early on, probably from his role power. There might be something there to clear one of you and Diiny as civilian, and even a very specific civilian role.

Please consider my behavior at almost every EOD and perhaps my most consistent plea/call-to-alert.

I keep failing to understand why seaside would suspect JJJ or Diiny if he'd have seen vote manipulation attributable to "very specific civilian role".

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think this could be the civilians' last chance at a successful lynch, so all the cards on the table are fine with me.

Very well.

I think MM is And She Was.

If he is, I've calculated that he had four Lynch phases without receiving a vote, so he started D12 with -4. Meaning the actual tally was MM = 1, motel = 2, and that's why motel got lynched.

For some reason I thought that role could gain negative votes and positive votes.

Noted.

[Marmot]

And because I like voting early, JaggedJimmyJay.

You put Diiny bottom read and lynch priority. What's the hold up?

I told ya townies to stop fighting and focus on baddies.

Rico, it's not that simple. If you, Jay, and I are definitely civilians, then there's no question that Russti and Diiny are the last two baddies, and we have an easy lynch ahead of us.

You have to be considered in the mix whether you like it or not.

[Ricochet]

I think this could be the civilians' last chance at a successful lynch, so all the cards on the table are fine with me.

Very well.

I think MM is And She Was.

If he is, I've calculated that he had four Lynch phases without receiving a vote, so he started D12 with -4. Meaning the actual tally was MM = 1, motel = 2, and that's why motel got lynched.

For some reason I thought that role could gain negative votes and positive votes.

Noted.

Nay, only negative cumulative votes.

Pretty sure it means he got lucky with the kills, too, at least once or twice.

[Ricochet]

And because I like voting early, JaggedJimmyJay.

You put Diiny bottom read and lynch priority. What's the hold up?

I told ya townies to stop fighting and focus on baddies.

Rico, it's not that simple. If you, Jay, and I are definitely civilians, then there's no question that Russti and Diiny are the last two baddies, and we have an easy lynch ahead of us.

You have to be considered in the mix whether you like it or not.

That's fine, but you'd only fuel the remaining two baddies to contest me or try to wiggle their way out.

Judge me by my tone, if nothing else. When I was confident before, I provided results. When I didn't have anything to be confident all, I was "objectively horrific".

Hear my voice, hear my voice, it's the truth.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Rico, MM, and I have combined for 3,035 posts in this game as of right now.

If we can finish this win together that'd be such a great feeling. I really hope you guys are on my side, because I'm starting to #believe

[Ricochet]

EBWOP: to be confident in*

Anyway, regarding the "very specific role" seaside might have seen, it's fair to say both Diiny and JJJ can be read as such, without conflicts, considering the vote tallies. For JJJ, there's a very risky D2 to be considered (unless Pulled Up also compensated by having voted LC - although that only means he could have been b24... brb lemme check the tallies from this perspective...), otherwise no conflicts. Me asking JJJ the questions I did during N12 was to help differentiate and unless he totally caught on and fabricated the answers, I still maintain I got good vibes and still do about him (the constant rallies to always have a clear top wagon instead of close calls, for instance...).

[Diiny]

MM as And She Was sounds plausible, but that'd mean that he wasn't on drugs at that point or that he and motel room were. Which, again, is plausible to me.

I'm just very scared the SK's SECRETS can effect the tally somehow. Do we have any unsolved night shenanigan mysteries? If so I'll actually give that fear some though. If not it'll just spin in my mind like a rotisserie chicken.

[Ricochet]

Rico, MM, and I have combined for 3,035 posts in this game as of right now.

If we can finish this win together that'd be such a great feeling. I really hope you guys are on my side, because I'm starting to #believe

Well, the only downside would be that Marsh would get an incredible 8th win this year (with my help, yet again) and Golden a 7th, otherwise yeah, if you're not Satan and we stick together, we have a shot.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Maybe I'll get my first.

[Ricochet]

MM as And She Was sounds plausible, but that'd mean that he wasn't on drugs at that point or that he and motel room were. Which, again, is plausible to me.

I'm just very scared the SK's SECRETS can effect the tally somehow. Do we have any unsolved night shenanigan mysteries? If so I'll actually give that fear some though. If not it'll just spin in my mind like a rotisserie chicken.

If he would have been targeted with drugs, he had some odds to evade that.

If motel was drugged and MM is who he is, it wouldn't have changed the outcome.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This will be an odd night phase with a mafia kill. Shall we presume that the SK is a bigger immediate threat given the potential for multiple kill attempts?

[Ricochet]

As for the SK stuff, hmm... a warning sign or a taunt from the killah himself?

Anyway, as I've said, if PK can get out of lynches somehow, he's overpowered and I'm resigning myself to losing. I doubt MP would do something like this, despite his penchant for tricksy secrets.

linki: I'd say so.

[Diiny]

Yeah, I'm bad at words, because I didn't mean "drifting" as in switching during a phase. I meant they drift (well, most of them) from the core wagons. Yes, I remember your motivation to vote Golden, it doesn't make it any less throwing your vote outside the Milky Way, whilst we were busy here on Earth with the main subjects.

My point is that it attracted attention. Whether you think it was a good move is not the relevant question. do you think it was a move that is indicative of me being SK? If so, why?

"As SK, why wouldn't I have just picked a side?" How can an SK pick sides as a rogue solitary player?

I meant pick a side as in pick one of the two wagons and save myself a lot of trouble. I could've just thrown a vote in there with some on the spot logic or reaffirmed previous vague suspicion if I was SK and gotten an easy lynch that advanced my win condition. but I didn't. I was worried about the effect of my vote.

I want to stress again that, if it weren't, sadly, for Russ not being who I initially thought he was, I would not have any kind of dilemma in reading you and Wilgy bad - meaning one is mafia, one is SK. Not one bit. Meaning baked cases or not, rebuttals or not, words wouldn't have mattered anymore to me, because the two of you would be bad by sheer deduction.

Thanks for telling me about a scenario we're not in and is completely irrelevant. There's two people left who, in your head with your logic, are bad. And you don't know who. And it's not me. So bake those goddamn reads and actually start reading my posts.

Here's three options in your "I'm not bad" favor:
1. Sell me your civvieness. "I want to kill the mafia" isn't good enough, because on paper you only lynched Floyd and advertised for Wilgy, who, granted, I also suspect of possible being mafia. This doesn't exclude you from a SK profiling.

2. If not for strong activity and such, give me subtle hints, then, so I can try to pick them up and assess them.

3. Here's an admittedly extreme thought: tempt the SK to kill you, if you're not it. That way, with no announcement afterwards that a bad/rogue faction has been eliminated and with only Wilgy and Russ left in the equation, I would personally have no problem returning to my previous, dilemma-free, deductions and we would no doubt win the game. Honest to God here.

1) Look at my posts and tell me I wasn't seriously pursuing Bullzeye. I preferred and voted wilgy, but I explained that. Look at my interactions with/on Bullzeye and tell me I wasn't on that shit. And as for selling you my civiness, what the bloody hell do you think I'm doing now? I will go through my own bloody post history and tell you why it's civ if you're too lazy to actually build a case agaisnt me.

2) No, how about you case me normally thanks

3) I'd much rather the SK killed scum, thanks. And I'm one of the main SK candidates, no way I'm getting the psycho-ray shoved into my face.

[Diiny]

You asked me who the SK is and I don't really know. I'm not sold on you, Rico, but knowing how an SK operates and seeing that I still don't really have a good idea of what Russ has done this game or what he stands for I'd probably put him over you. There's some stuff about your game that is SKy, but not others. I'll be able to answer this properly after my case of Russ and yourself.

[Ricochet]

[img]Thanks%20for%20telling%20me%20about%20a%20scenario%20we're%20not%20in%20and%20is%20completely%20irrelevant.%20There's%20two%20people%20left%20who,%20in%20your%20head%20with%20your%20logic,%20are%20bad.%20And%20you%20don't%20know%20who.%20And%20it's%20not%20me.%20So%20bake%20those%20goddamn%20reads%20and%20actually%20start%20reading%20my%20posts.[/img]

Uhm, yes, we're not in that scenario anymore. Thank goodness for that.

In my head with my logic, there are two people left who are both bad in their own way.

So... Would you rather be read mafia, instead of SK?

[Ricochet]

the fark am I doing

EBWOP

Thanks for telling me about a scenario we're not in and is completely irrelevant. There's two people left who, in your head with your logic, are bad. And you don't know who. And it's not me. So bake those goddamn reads and actually start reading my posts.

Uhm, yes, we're not in that scenario anymore. Thank goodness for that.

In my head with my logic, there are two people left who are both bad in their own way.

So... Would you rather be read mafia, instead of SK?

[Ricochet]

You asked me who the SK is and I don't really know. I'm not sold on you, Rico, but knowing how an SK operates and seeing that I still don't really have a good idea of what Russ has done this game or what he stands for I'd probably put him over you. There's some stuff about your game that is SKy, but not others. I'll be able to answer this properly after my case of Russ and yourself.

Then who is mafia and who is Blind?

[Diiny]

That comment still holds true. You went on in great detail about how I'd be confirmed bad if it wasn't for russ and you wouldn't need to actually play mafia.

Russ is still alive.

Play mafia.

[Ricochet]

So you don't have any answers or personal criteria (yet) as to who is SK or how to track him, yet you demand of me to case the hell out of you being SK by standards such as consistent gameplay and votes. (which I've already said that could sometimes be indicative, but other times not, especially if the SK seeking consistency was precisely his MO).

[Diiny]

I have criteria, I just don't have facts. Give me time.

You have... muddy criteria, and a bad knowlege of my facts. Yet you're pushing a half case on me as if you're actually making an informed decision.

If you're going to lynch me because of fucking consistent game play , something you're ACTUALLY ADMITTING DOESN'T EVEN SHOW ANYTHING SOMETIMES, then go ahead.

[Ricochet]

That comment still holds true. You went on in great detail about how I'd be confirmed bad if it wasn't for russ and you wouldn't need to actually play mafia.

Russ is still alive.

Play mafia.

Read again. I said that Russ complicated by being a third player in an equation in which I need to deduce two baddies.

Wilgy was killed, without the Host confirming the mafia team has been eliminated.

There is no longer a third player in the equation in which I need to deduce the two baddies. There's just the two baddies.

Q.E.D.

Everything I'm doing is playing mafia. I'm sorry if it sucks for you personally that my deductions (which I have not stepped out of boundaries with, nor presented in a fashion to distort, disrupt or alter the dynamic of the game) have led to reading you bad.

[Ricochet]

I have criteria, I just don't have facts. Give me time.

You have... muddy criteria, and a bad knowlege of my facts. Yet you're pushing a half case on me as if you're actually making an informed decision.

If you're going to lynch me because of fucking consistent game play , something you're ACTUALLY ADMITTING DOESN'T EVEN SHOW ANYTHING SOMETIMES, then go ahead.

Tell me your criteria, then.

Which facts have I mistaken or misconstrued, if you say I have bad knowledge of them?

Ironically, a half case is almost something to take as compliment, considering that MacBaddie said I have zero case and all bullsuit on him, when I haunted him successfully.

Consistency is something an SK can aspire to. Of course one can't say "X is SK because he's so consistent", that's just silly.

[Diiny]

Why are you so against the idea of casing me? Are you scared that you won't actually be able to mount a proper case and that you'll lose your easy button? There's nothing to lose if you're town, so just do it and let me respond.

linki: your deductions are incorrect because I am town. Talk to me about them as much as you can without infodumping or you're going to spend this crucial day phase pushing a lynch that can (will?) cost town the game

[Marmot]

Diiny

I've run through the scenarios in my head. Basically what it comes down to is that one of either Diiny or Jay is Blind.

Here's a couple points why Diiny is likely the PSK.

1) As we all know, he missed Night 5 and Day 6, the only night that the Psycho Killer had the oppurtunity to kill, but didn't.

2) Day 7, Diiny votes for Jay. Jay looks like he's going to be lynched, but there's a very late push against seaside, and he's lynched instead. Diiny is one of the last players to switch from Jay to seaside. Jay was about to be lynched, but not only did he lose the pursuit at the last moment, players like Epignosis lost interest in lynching Jay for the time being. Night 7, the same player is targeted for nightkill by both the Psycho Killer and Mafia. The player is likely Blind. Looking at it in context, Jay is a likely kill-target because he wasn't lynched. It actually makes more sense for mafia to target Jay with a nightkill then for the PSK, but we just happen to know that they both targeted the same player.

[Ricochet]

Anyway, I'll make some evaluation tomorrow, just in case you're the baddie (but seriously, you want me to believe you were counterwagon to MacBaddie as a teammate and you didn't even bother to show up during that entire Day) and Russ is SK, to see if it hurts our chances, if we don't catch the SK today.

[Diiny]

IT ATE MY FUCKING POST.

I'm going to bed.

[Ricochet]

Why are you so against the idea of casing me? Are you scared that you won't actually be able to mount a proper case and that you'll lose your easy button? There's nothing to lose if you're town, so just do it and let me respond.

linki: your deductions are incorrect because I am town. Talk to me about them as much as you can without infodumping or you're going to spend this crucial day phase pushing a lynch that can (will?) cost town the game

I have deduced that MM might be And She Was, after the D12 lynch result and certain hints I picked from MM's posts that could be (re)interpreted as not wanting to face exposure rather than a lynch (which, in his role, would have been highly unlikely anyway).

I have deduced a role that JJJ might be and his answers to my inquiry have proven satisfactory.

That leaves two players, out of which the unlikelihood of you being mafioso (due to a specific lynch event) makes me deduce you must be the SK.

[Ricochet]

Again, I'm sorry and can empathise with feeling that your plane suddenly lost its wings and is tumbling down (hey, in a future game, it can well happen to me; or anyone else), simply because I'm reaching conclusions via a slightly different angle. But since I haven't been sanctioned so far for working out my deductions, it must mean I'm still doing it properly.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If you're going to lynch me because of fucking consistent game play , something you're ACTUALLY ADMITTING DOESN'T EVEN SHOW ANYTHING SOMETIMES, then go ahead.

Diiny, I'm afraid this highlighted bit says a lot. No matter what you write between those two phrases, there can be nothing good enough to justify them. You've played a hell of a game and deserve immense respect for that. Seriously, mad props.

But I don't see how town Diiny would ever say this with the game on the line.

[Diiny]

I ain't going to bed after that, are you crazy?

I calmed down though.

You've arrived at that conclusion (publicly, at least) because you're not considering yourself as another unconfirmed player when in fact you're bad. And my casing will reveal what brand.

linki: Mad-at-party-games Diin.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

To be fair Rico, I don't think Diiny being Mac's counterwagon on Day 6 precludes him from being mafia-aligned. I do think there is other evidence to suggest that though.

[Diiny]

I also couldn't think of an appropriate thing to tell him to do if he's really going to do that. I've played this game for like a month.

[Ricochet]

Diiny

I've run through the scenarios in my head. Basically what it comes down to is that one of either Diiny or Jay is Blind.

Here's a couple points why Diiny is likely the PSK.

1) As we all know, he missed Night 5 and Day 6, the only night that the Psycho Killer had the oppurtunity to kill, but didn't.

2) Day 7, Diiny votes for Jay. Jay looks like he's going to be lynched, but there's a very late push against seaside, and he's lynched instead. Diiny is one of the last players to switch from Jay to seaside. Jay was about to be lynched, but not only did he lose the pursuit at the last moment, players like Epignosis lost interest in lynching Jay for the time being. Night 7, the same player is targeted for nightkill by both the Psycho Killer and Mafia. The player is likely Blind. Looking at it in context, Jay is a likely kill-target because he wasn't lynched. It actually makes more sense for mafia to target Jay with a nightkill then for the PSK, but we just happen to know that they both targeted the same player.

I won't deny that Diiny looks purer in the vote tally, because of any possible conflict or exposure. JJJ has a questionable D2 in which, if he is Blind, he either luckily remained with his vote on LC or another role, such as perhaps Pulled Up (who already would have had a +1, based on BWT's mislynch from D1). If Pulled Up wasn't killed on N1, then he was killed on N9 at the latest. B24 could be such a candidate. B24 voted LC on D2.

But to this I add that I tested JJJ during N12 with some questions and I feel he replied very quick and pertinent to them. I only have like, say, 10% doubts of him having done so with full intent, but nefariously.

Meanwhile, let's think of why Diiny, if Blind, wouldn't act in any way under pressure to his own benefit, especially if the game now boils down to two baddies and he accepted the plausibility of you being town? Is it simply for the purity of so called "playing Mafia"? I find that hard to believe. I've played for almost a year here and civs often couldn't resist dropping hints under pressure of lynch. FZ hinted at being Near in Death Note. I hinted at being ninja civ in Donner (via shooting llama in the face #top3moments :nobleemoji:). Jacob, Joseph or whoever it was hinted at being the Day prolonger, in Biblical. You hinted at being the Comedian in Watchmen. Dragon hinted at being Manhattan in Watchmen. Golden hinted, then outed himself being Oh-Oh in here.

I doubt his environment, back on RYM, is purer or more strict than this. I'd rather believe he isn't Blind.

Now, as to your points:

1) Yes, I think it can be empirical evidence. Augmented furthermore by his D6 inactivity, which only makes sense (instead of resisting a near lynch in any way), if you were truly out of touch.

2) Sounds reasonable. I agree that Blind must have been targeted once, if not twice, by now.

[Ricochet]

To be fair Rico, I don't think Diiny being Mac's counterwagon on Day 6 precludes him from being mafia-aligned. I do think there is other evidence to suggest that though.

Yes, the reveal that only MacBaddie voted on that counterwagon, despite requesting it in the open, makes me wonder just a bit, but does Mac's attitude tell you he was resigned to Diiny, as teamie, becoming his counterwagon, or indifferent, knowing Diiny is not his teammate?

And what other evidence would you say?

[Ricochet]

Actually, correction, there's also Zebra as a N3 victim, that could be Pulled Up. If not, then a player such as b24 at the earliest on N9.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

On RYM, the concept of "infodumping" doesn't exist (until #88 when I brought it from here) because revealing role-related information is considered the norm and not some kind of controversial behavior. That's why I think guys like seaside, Choutas, and Strawhenge all struggled mightily with that rule in this game -- it's foreign to RYMers and they've never been faced with that particular variable.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

To be fair Rico, I don't think Diiny being Mac's counterwagon on Day 6 precludes him from being mafia-aligned. I do think there is other evidence to suggest that though.

Yes, the reveal that only MacBaddie voted on that counterwagon, despite requesting it in the open, makes me wonder just a bit, but does Mac's attitude tell you he was resigned to Diiny, as teamie, becoming his counterwagon, or indifferent, knowing Diiny is not his teammate?

Mac openly resisted Diiny as the counterwagon on Day 6 (he literally told motel room he wanted it to be DrWilgy). I later interpreted this as a WIFOMburger in Diiny's favor and not in Doc's favor. It's possible I had it backwards.