Fallout 2: A Post-Nuclear Mafia Game [AMERICA RISES]

[Urist]

i might actually end up voting for tsp here. i feel like i'm voting seanzie just because i don't want to be wrong on tsp. but certain things just don't add up

[TonyStarkPrime]

shot in arm

[TonyStarkPrime]

i might actually end up voting for tsp here. i feel like i'm voting seanzie just because i don't want to be wrong on tsp. but certain things just don't add up

I acknowledge a bit of confusion. Poison's day 2 interactions with jack/chop are boggling if they're w/w/w. The poison/syn claim is likewise confounding. If you want to add on Sean having bad arguments too, okay, go for it. Maybe you have a few other areas too. But I think there's no way that that world makes less sense than the things necessary for me to be a wolf here. I would have had no reason, were I a wolf, to sandbag a confirmable claim (by marmot and thread patterns). I would have had no reason to interact with Chop as I did. I wouldn't have 1200 posts and more mech work put into this game than anyone else and be on a wolf team that's still botching claims on like day 7. You'd have an out of tilt kill count. Not even counting the little things, like a kill pattern that seems designed to get me chopped, or Made's claim fiasco, or whatever.

I'll be around for a few hours; let me know if you want anything.

(also if you vote for me chop wins and that's 100% an AtE but I don't want that to happen)

[TonyStarkPrime]

(I'm also slightly disturbed by the fact that sean has done zero evaluation on urist after his like two posts but I don't know how to voice that but I just wanted to see if anyone else noticed it)

[TonyStarkPrime]

Also because if I vote TSP and he ends up being town I'll feel like a jackass.

But I do think that Nanook had a role cop, and I think that if the scum inventor had given it to him then Made would have just claimed that.

There are a lot of other things as well, including the fact that I don't think Chop v TSP was bussing, Poison's posts were pretty scummy, the KZA shot doesn't make sense from her perspective, TSP has appeared relatively townie the whole game, and Seanzie's arguments today are uninspiring.

at least I made arguments. I repped into a hard game to rep into, with a slot that was not set up well and I tried.

Yeah sorry about that if you're town. You're putting way more effort into this game than I am, which is why I feel bad that I'm the one who has to make this decision.
Honestly I'm trying to look for reasons for why your slot would be town but I've got nothing. Can you point at anything you've done this game that you wouldn't have done as scum?

I wouldn't have resisted an Alison yeet two days in a row if I was a wolf when my scumbuddy was up for a yeet.

I shot down TSP's idea about ending the game yesterday rather than today since F4 is better for scum than F3. If I was a wolf, I would have taken my chances in F4 if it felt like town would have been up for it.

I also pushed hard for claims, which I may not have done as a wolf since the claims helped box scum in.

I also probably wouldn't have cleared Marmot based on balancing if I was a wolf since he was pretty heavily suspected and could have been a mislunch if I hadn't committed to always lunching TSP before Marmot two or three days ago.

thing one is flat false in general, but I've accepted that in any world you believe it
thing two is flat false for you
things three and four are false enough

[Seanzie]

(I'm also slightly disturbed by the fact that sean has done zero evaluation on urist after his like two posts but I don't know how to voice that but I just wanted to see if anyone else noticed it)

And you have?

Unless there is a viable alternative explanation for the no-kill night, Urist is more-or-less confirmed.

[TonyStarkPrime]

i said false enough but I meant something else but I don't know what I mean; I think fine enough. maybe.

[TonyStarkPrime]

(I'm also slightly disturbed by the fact that sean has done zero evaluation on urist after his like two posts but I don't know how to voice that but I just wanted to see if anyone else noticed it)

And you have?

Unless there is a viable alternative explanation for the no-kill night, Urist is more-or-less confirmed.

Yeah but I've been saying this for six days and you changed your mind very quickly. And I've done more evaluation on Urist than you have today, that's what's weird to me

[TonyStarkPrime]

(especially since you keep talking about balance and urist has the non-balance claim)

[TonyStarkPrime]

(which isn't a real thing, to establish that. but like I figured you would have at least pointed it out)

[TonyStarkPrime]

@TonyStarkPrime @Urist @sprityo please claim alignment ASAP.

@Grogu please hardclaim your role ASAP.

Interesting. So we got Jack + Sprityo + Urist (potentially) + Kylemii as BoS.

There's one scum in there Imo. Maaaybe 2 but I doubt.

I'm eager to hear @Grogu's claim.

I think I know who it is. I need Daisy/sprit targets

I ask you marmot to get daisy slot to claim first.
I have a result and know who they targeted but that’s it. I want to hear her claim and result for each night more importantly last night.

Daisy got replaced by Sprityo.

They claimed Brotherhood of Steel as an alignment.

I don’t care about that.

grogu buddy i've been pretty transparent today on who i could be, just give it some thought and all your questions are answered. However I wont tell you any other night actions for the time being

I'm starting to suspect Sprityo the most. Grogu should claim alignment, and then I think Sprityo should claim.

look at that progression

like you tell grogu to hardclaim, grogu claims some semblance of information on sprityo, now boom sprityo is most suspcious no further questions.

still didn't get an explanation for sean's grogu progression day 7 either which I have read several times and just do not comprehend. check out all of it -- note that he votes for grogu and argues to chop there while simultaneously trying to shift off of it

[TonyStarkPrime]

he'll probably respond and say something about balancing again idk

[TonyStarkPrime]

Okay, so thoughts before I start digging into ISOs.


Right now I am definitely leaning towards voting TSP over Urist, but I am going to try to read as much of both your ISOs before I commit to anything.

like you say this and ping urist with a question (which he didn't answer i think but who cares) and have literally not given it a second thought

[TonyStarkPrime]

it was a question about me it doesn't count

[Urist]

[VOTE: tony stark prime] aubergine
Trying too hard

[TonyStarkPrime]

[VOTE: tony stark prime] aubergine
Trying too hard

i was just not trying hard enough smh

[Seanzie]

Also because if I vote TSP and he ends up being town I'll feel like a jackass.

But I do think that Nanook had a role cop, and I think that if the scum inventor had given it to him then Made would have just claimed that.

There are a lot of other things as well, including the fact that I don't think Chop v TSP was bussing, Poison's posts were pretty scummy, the KZA shot doesn't make sense from her perspective, TSP has appeared relatively townie the whole game, and Seanzie's arguments today are uninspiring.

at least I made arguments. I repped into a hard game to rep into, with a slot that was not set up well and I tried.

Yeah sorry about that if you're town. You're putting way more effort into this game than I am, which is why I feel bad that I'm the one who has to make this decision.
Honestly I'm trying to look for reasons for why your slot would be town but I've got nothing. Can you point at anything you've done this game that you wouldn't have done as scum?

I wouldn't have resisted an Alison yeet two days in a row if I was a wolf when my scumbuddy was up for a yeet.

I shot down TSP's idea about ending the game yesterday rather than today since F4 is better for scum than F3. If I was a wolf, I would have taken my chances in F4 if it felt like town would have been up for it.

I also pushed hard for claims, which I may not have done as a wolf since the claims helped box scum in.

I also probably wouldn't have cleared Marmot based on balancing if I was a wolf since he was pretty heavily suspected and could have been a mislunch if I hadn't committed to always lunching TSP before Marmot two or three days ago.

thing one is flat false in general, but I've accepted that in any world you believe it
thing two is flat false for you
things three and four are false enough

Thing one isn't false. We lost a mislim chopping someone who was outed, but whom didn't need to be chopped. Since we are in F3 right now with a PoE of 2, that ONE mislim that we lost would have solved the game for us.

Thing two isn't false? F4 is always better for the wolf than F3? I think it is super suspicious you wanted to end it in F4 btw. Why was that?

"false enough"? What does that even mean? If you don't believe the Marmot thing, why did you say earlier today that you started yesterday thinking about voting Marmot? It sounds like YOU felt he was worth suspecting. Unless I missed something, I was the only one who had put Marmot as reasonably clear. Why would I do that as a wolf? TBH, I would have killed Urist as a wolf last night. I think you only killed Marmot because you knew 1. I had him far above you, and 2. Marmot had expressed that he felt good about my ISO (granted still suspicious of my slot overall), whereas Urist did not express anything good about me yesterday.

[Seanzie]

Okay, so thoughts before I start digging into ISOs.


Right now I am definitely leaning towards voting TSP over Urist, but I am going to try to read as much of both your ISOs before I commit to anything.

like you say this and ping urist with a question (which he didn't answer i think but who cares) and have literally not given it a second thought

Yeah well your ISO was long enough that I ran out of steam, and the more I thought about it, the more clear Urist was.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Also because if I vote TSP and he ends up being town I'll feel like a jackass.

But I do think that Nanook had a role cop, and I think that if the scum inventor had given it to him then Made would have just claimed that.

There are a lot of other things as well, including the fact that I don't think Chop v TSP was bussing, Poison's posts were pretty scummy, the KZA shot doesn't make sense from her perspective, TSP has appeared relatively townie the whole game, and Seanzie's arguments today are uninspiring.

at least I made arguments. I repped into a hard game to rep into, with a slot that was not set up well and I tried.

Yeah sorry about that if you're town. You're putting way more effort into this game than I am, which is why I feel bad that I'm the one who has to make this decision.
Honestly I'm trying to look for reasons for why your slot would be town but I've got nothing. Can you point at anything you've done this game that you wouldn't have done as scum?

I wouldn't have resisted an Alison yeet two days in a row if I was a wolf when my scumbuddy was up for a yeet.

I shot down TSP's idea about ending the game yesterday rather than today since F4 is better for scum than F3. If I was a wolf, I would have taken my chances in F4 if it felt like town would have been up for it.

I also pushed hard for claims, which I may not have done as a wolf since the claims helped box scum in.

I also probably wouldn't have cleared Marmot based on balancing if I was a wolf since he was pretty heavily suspected and could have been a mislunch if I hadn't committed to always lunching TSP before Marmot two or three days ago.

thing one is flat false in general, but I've accepted that in any world you believe it
thing two is flat false for you
things three and four are false enough

Thing one isn't false. We lost a mislim chopping someone who was outed, but whom didn't need to be chopped. Since we are in F3 right now with a PoE of 2, that ONE mislim that we lost would have solved the game for us.

Thing two isn't false? F4 is always better for the wolf than F3? I think it is super suspicious you wanted to end it in F4 btw. Why was that?

"false enough"? What does that even mean? If you don't believe the Marmot thing, why did you say earlier today that you started yesterday thinking about voting Marmot? It sounds like YOU felt he was worth suspecting. Unless I missed something, I was the only one who had put Marmot as reasonably clear. Why would I do that as a wolf? TBH, I would have killed Urist as a wolf last night. I think you only killed Marmot because you knew 1. I had him far above you, and 2. Marmot had expressed that he felt good about my ISO (granted still suspicious of my slot overall), whereas Urist did not express anything good about me yesterday.

you're wrong on thing one
thing two is false -- note -- for you, since you personally wouldn't have fared well. i pushed for it because i wanted the game to be over this is establishd:P
as to false enough I said that I had no idea what it means. i dunno why you cleared marmot for ~balancing~. I have no idea what ~balancing~ means. every time you say something about ~balancing~ I think it's just an in-between step for you to make whatever claim you want to tbh

[TonyStarkPrime]

im not talking about the relative strengths and weaknesses of chopping or not chopping a wolf-siding 3P who might have a vig shot left and might have a bulletproof vest left

[TonyStarkPrime]

hmm chop the outed wolf with a (possible) vest and vig shot, or chop the outed vanilla goon

[TonyStarkPrime]

but I'm not talking about it

[Seanzie]

Also because if I vote TSP and he ends up being town I'll feel like a jackass.

But I do think that Nanook had a role cop, and I think that if the scum inventor had given it to him then Made would have just claimed that.

There are a lot of other things as well, including the fact that I don't think Chop v TSP was bussing, Poison's posts were pretty scummy, the KZA shot doesn't make sense from her perspective, TSP has appeared relatively townie the whole game, and Seanzie's arguments today are uninspiring.

at least I made arguments. I repped into a hard game to rep into, with a slot that was not set up well and I tried.

Yeah sorry about that if you're town. You're putting way more effort into this game than I am, which is why I feel bad that I'm the one who has to make this decision.
Honestly I'm trying to look for reasons for why your slot would be town but I've got nothing. Can you point at anything you've done this game that you wouldn't have done as scum?

I wouldn't have resisted an Alison yeet two days in a row if I was a wolf when my scumbuddy was up for a yeet.

I shot down TSP's idea about ending the game yesterday rather than today since F4 is better for scum than F3. If I was a wolf, I would have taken my chances in F4 if it felt like town would have been up for it.

I also pushed hard for claims, which I may not have done as a wolf since the claims helped box scum in.

I also probably wouldn't have cleared Marmot based on balancing if I was a wolf since he was pretty heavily suspected and could have been a mislunch if I hadn't committed to always lunching TSP before Marmot two or three days ago.

thing one is flat false in general, but I've accepted that in any world you believe it
thing two is flat false for you
things three and four are false enough

Thing one isn't false. We lost a mislim chopping someone who was outed, but whom didn't need to be chopped. Since we are in F3 right now with a PoE of 2, that ONE mislim that we lost would have solved the game for us.

Thing two isn't false? F4 is always better for the wolf than F3? I think it is super suspicious you wanted to end it in F4 btw. Why was that?

"false enough"? What does that even mean? If you don't believe the Marmot thing, why did you say earlier today that you started yesterday thinking about voting Marmot? It sounds like YOU felt he was worth suspecting. Unless I missed something, I was the only one who had put Marmot as reasonably clear. Why would I do that as a wolf? TBH, I would have killed Urist as a wolf last night. I think you only killed Marmot because you knew 1. I had him far above you, and 2. Marmot had expressed that he felt good about my ISO (granted still suspicious of my slot overall), whereas Urist did not express anything good about me yesterday.

you're wrong on thing one
thing two is false -- note -- for you, since you personally wouldn't have fared well. i pushed for it because i wanted the game to be over this is establishd:P
as to false enough I said that I had no idea what it means. i dunno why you cleared marmot for ~balancing~. I have no idea what ~balancing~ means. every time you say something about ~balancing~ I think it's just an in-between step for you to make whatever claim you want to tbh

So... you think Wolf!me would fare better in F3 without the one person who actually had positive things to say about me yesterday... vs F4 WITH the one person who actually had positive things to say about me yesterday? What?

How do you not know what balancing is? If you play in a 13 person game, do you expect there to be 6 wolves, or 1 wolf? No? Why not? Because that would be unbalanced.

If you play in a game with multiple factions, do you expect one faction with a very easy wincon to have more people in it than a faction with a much harder to satisfy wincon? No? Why not? Because that would be unbalanced. I've already explained this multiple times, but Hubologists literally need to kill 4 people to satisfy their non-enclave wincon, where Redding needs to kill ONE. So does it make sense to have Hubologists only have one rule, where Redding has two? No. It isn't out of the realm of possibilities, but it would be unexpected, and JJJ literally said he is proud of his ability to balance games, so I think it is reasonable to assume that the game is reasonably well-balanced.

[TonyStarkPrime]

If you play in a game with multiple factions, do you expect one faction with a very easy wincon to have more people in it than a faction with a much harder to satisfy wincon? No? Why not? Because that would be unbalanced. I've already explained this multiple times, but Hubologists literally need to kill 4 people to satisfy their non-enclave wincon, where Redding needs to kill ONE. So does it make sense to have Hubologists only have one rule, where Redding has two? No. It isn't out of the realm of possibilities, but it would be unexpected, and JJJ literally said he is proud of his ability to balance games, so I think it is reasonable to assume that the game is reasonably well-balanced.

pretty sure mafia is a game where normally there are two factions and they have approximately equal to achieve win cons and their sizes are not balanced but again, not talking about it. we have moved on.

[Seanzie]

hmm chop the outed wolf with a (possible) vest and vig shot, or chop the outed vanilla goon

Slaver isn't a wolf? Didn't you brag a little while about about understanding the setup? Like literally slaver is orange, which JJJ says is "most classically "independent"", and town doesn't need to kill the slaver to win, and the slaver can win with town. They are 3p, not wolf. So yeah, chop the wolf, or even chop in the PoE (like Grogu... whom you yeeted Alison over...) over chopping the 3p. Also, the fact Alison didn't shoot the night after she was outed essentially confirmed that she didn't have a shot left, since it was in her benefit to appear as harmless as possible (and the best way to prove she was harmless would have been to give us a mech reason to believe she had no shots left).

[Seanzie]

If you play in a game with multiple factions, do you expect one faction with a very easy wincon to have more people in it than a faction with a much harder to satisfy wincon? No? Why not? Because that would be unbalanced. I've already explained this multiple times, but Hubologists literally need to kill 4 people to satisfy their non-enclave wincon, where Redding needs to kill ONE. So does it make sense to have Hubologists only have one rule, where Redding has two? No. It isn't out of the realm of possibilities, but it would be unexpected, and JJJ literally said he is proud of his ability to balance games, so I think it is reasonable to assume that the game is reasonably well-balanced.

pretty sure mafia is a game where normally there are two factions and they have approximately equal to achieve win cons and their sizes are not balanced but again, not talking about it. we have moved on.

So you DOOOO know what balancing is. The harder the wincon is to satisfy, the more people the faction gets to make the game BALANCED. Wolves have a NK, BTSC and knowledge of their identity, so their wincon is easier to satisfy if teamsizes are equal, so wolves get less people than town to BALANCE the game.

[TonyStarkPrime]

hmm chop the outed wolf with a (possible) vest and vig shot, or chop the outed vanilla goon

Slaver isn't a wolf? Didn't you brag a little while about about understanding the setup? Like literally slaver is orange, which JJJ says is "most classically "independent"", and town doesn't need to kill the slaver to win, and the slaver can win with town. They are 3p, not wolf. So yeah, chop the wolf, or even chop in the PoE (like Grogu... whom you yeeted Alison over...) over chopping the 3p. Also, the fact Alison didn't shoot the night after she was outed essentially confirmed that she didn't have a shot left, since it was in her benefit to appear as harmless as possible (and the best way to prove she was harmless would have been to give us a mech reason to believe she had no shots left).

BECAUSE GROGU WAS GONNA GET SHOT

[TonyStarkPrime]

not talking about it

[TonyStarkPrime]

MAFIA need to kill 12 PEOPLE to satisfy their win condition, while TOWN only need to kill 3. So does it make sense for wolves to have 3 members, while town have 12? No.

[Urist]

How funny would it be if me voting tsp was just an april fools joke

[Seanzie]

hmm chop the outed wolf with a (possible) vest and vig shot, or chop the outed vanilla goon

Slaver isn't a wolf? Didn't you brag a little while about about understanding the setup? Like literally slaver is orange, which JJJ says is "most classically "independent"", and town doesn't need to kill the slaver to win, and the slaver can win with town. They are 3p, not wolf. So yeah, chop the wolf, or even chop in the PoE (like Grogu... whom you yeeted Alison over...) over chopping the 3p. Also, the fact Alison didn't shoot the night after she was outed essentially confirmed that she didn't have a shot left, since it was in her benefit to appear as harmless as possible (and the best way to prove she was harmless would have been to give us a mech reason to believe she had no shots left).

BECAUSE GROGU WAS GONNA GET SHOT

IIRC, this didn't even become clear until reasonably close to EoD, and either way... wouldn't it have been nice if we would have lunched Grogu instead, then Spirtyo could have shot into the remaining PoE, and we would have had a 1 smaller PoE the rest of the game?

[TonyStarkPrime]

clowns to the left of me jokers to my right

[TonyStarkPrime]

And you said that wasn’t a good mafia song @nutella smh

[Seanzie]

clowns to the left of me jokers to my right

Yes, I'm the clown when you are trying to make the case that Enclave wanted us to yeet an Enclave member over a 3p...

[TonyStarkPrime]

Chop literally self voted

[TonyStarkPrime]

Not talking about it

[Urist]

It was anti town to keep alison alive why would enclave not argue for that

[Seanzie]

Ok, it is clear based on present information that it was to the advantage of the scum team for chop to get chopped on day 6 and grogu to get chopped on day 7. I think this was clear from the get go, but at least the grogu one was a little more up in the air? Maybe there were worlds where you're concerned that sprityo was a wolf, but even then you give him the opportunity to prove himself with the vig shot, idk. The main person pushing those things in the thread was Sean, and the logic he was used to do so is flawed at best. Now, there are problems with the use of present information to judge past circumstances, but it is clear that me and Urist were arguing for the kills that were optimal for the town and that Sean was arguing for the kills that were optimal for the wolves

Like seriously, TSP's argument ISN'T that I was pushing for Chop and Grogu to get some sort of towncred, but that WOLVES wanted Chop and Grogu to get killed over Alison. Like really? In what world do wolves want their own members to get chopped? (like, I know sometimes it is good to let a member go if it sets the others up well, but again, TSP hasn't said anything like that here).

[Seanzie]

It was anti town to keep alison alive why would enclave not argue for that

Because it is even more antitown to keep a wolf alive.

[Seanzie]

How funny would it be if me voting tsp was just an april fools joke

So is your mind made up then? If so, please let me know so I can stop caring.

[Seanzie]

Woo! 15 minutes until I lose:)

[Seanzie]

Ok, it is clear based on present information that it was to the advantage of the scum team for chop to get chopped on day 6 and grogu to get chopped on day 7. I think this was clear from the get go, but at least the grogu one was a little more up in the air? Maybe there were worlds where you're concerned that sprityo was a wolf, but even then you give him the opportunity to prove himself with the vig shot, idk. The main person pushing those things in the thread was Sean, and the logic he was used to do so is flawed at best. Now, there are problems with the use of present information to judge past circumstances, but it is clear that me and Urist were arguing for the kills that were optimal for the town and that Sean was arguing for the kills that were optimal for the wolves

Like seriously, TSP's argument ISN'T that I was pushing for Chop and Grogu to get some sort of towncred, but that WOLVES wanted Chop and Grogu to get killed over Alison. Like really? In what world do wolves want their own members to get chopped? (like, I know sometimes it is good to let a member go if it sets the others up well, but again, TSP hasn't said anything like that here).

If the wolves wanted Alison alive, why were there 2 wolves on Alison D6 and 3 on Alison D7?

[Seanzie]

GG all, good job TSP. Or especially good job Urist if it is Urist, but probably just TSP. Sorry town, I tried :/

[TonyStarkPrime]

Town win?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Stand by. Thread is locked.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Day 11 has ended.

Seanzie has been eliminated. He was:

Spoiler: show

Sheriff Marion of Redding

Spoiler: show

Urist has been killed. He was:

Vice President Carlson of the NCR

Spoiler: show

TonyStarkPrime has survived the game. He is:

Dr. Charles Curling of the Enclave

Spoiler: show

The Enclave has won the game! Congratulations to @TonyStarkPrime, @Jackofhearts2005, @Grogu, @ChopChop, and @Made!

Spoiler: show

Additionally, @Alison and @falcon45ca are honorary winners for reasons I will explain later. Congrats!

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

So many misplays

On both sides

Gg

[TonyStarkPrime]

oh my god

[Marmot]

TSP with a mafia game for the ages

[TonyStarkPrime]

Never playing mafia again