Tree Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Epignosis]

Yeah whatever dude.

Epi do you really think I'm old.

I was old when I was 29.

[MacDougall]

Epignosis and Jimmy are very good players and Floyd is very inexperienced. What better way to get the heat off Floyd than by attacking him with unfounded suspicion. Nobody is going to just railroad the poor kid on day 1 or day 2 because Epi comes at him caseless and baseless. And if you don't make a play like that to help Floyd he naturally attracts suspicion like nobody's business. Epignosis has effectively completely achieved the opposite of his stated initial objective, he has made Floyd a town read for most. Do you think that is by accident?

Jimmy took the opposite approach. He's distancing by killing with kindness and at the same time distancing from Epignosis by going hard at him for the weak Floyd read. If Floyd manages to get killed then Jimmy can play the "well if I was a teammate I would never have defended him that much card" and if Epi gets killed Jimmy looks million buck for being his main adversary.

Epignosis and Jimmy's shit slinging match has been exhaustive, and as Zebra pointed out much of what they have pointed out about one another has been inconsistent play, not necessarily alignment indicative stuff. Jimmy has dialed back his read to Epi as wrong, not manipulative at one point and yet still has his vote on him.

They have played exactly as I would expect them to if they were a scum team.

What a crock of shit. You don't know what you would expect of me if I was on a Mafia team with them. You aren't qualified to say that, because you've never even seen me play as Mafia.

If I were on a team with a new or inexperienced person, I would not throw that person under the bus for credibility. That's unsportsmanlike. My goal, especially in a skirmish with no banner or GoC qualification, would be to help the player refine his skills and enjoy the BTSC company. I wouldn't give a damn about winning a game like this at the expense of helping someone gain experience and nurture a potential future relationship. Inexperienced players would be less likely to want to continue playing if their experienced team uses them as fodder and doesn't let them experience the game.

And, just to drive home the point that you know stuff-all about me as Mafia: In all the games I have ever been in from the beginning, having been Mafia many many times, how many times did I throw a teammate under the bus before, say, Day 4?

I'll see if you know the answer to that.

Well that's a reaction. A crock of shit? I think it's a pretty rational tinfoily argument tbh. Epignosis when I say it is what I expect, it is because it is what I would imagine two faceless experienced Mafia players would do. Not a personal read.

Second point is bizarre because you are saying that you would be friendly and hospitable to your scum buddy not throwing them under the bus for cred. Well I actually said you threw him under the bus to give him cred so that would fall into that category. Also why would you exclusively be kind to a new player if they were your teammates? If you were bad you'd be a dick to the new guy if he wasn't your teammate?

Of course I have no idea. My argument is tinfoil and also it's more about what I'd expect from an expert scum player than you personally. I don't know you from a bar of soap.

So your entire argument is strawman.

[Tangrowth]

You put it on yourself, man. I have no idea what you've got against me, but whatever it is, just share it.

Am I not permitted to call you Epi? Give me a reason not to.

My statement refers to he fact that pointed out that Mac gone against his word but you still want me gone.

this is floyd's best post.

I wouldn't have been happy with anything but a similar response thing to Epi's comment about being called Epi, and he questions epi's stance on him as you'd expect. I'd like to see a bit more ferocity, but going on a per-post makes it better. Not that I'm condoning his low post count and that he seems to still be focusing almost entirely on himself. I doubt he'd have questioned epi if he wasn't crusading against him.

Still a scum read.

You actually make a very good point here. With my inexperienced and (self-confessed) awful Mafia skills, I do tend to focus on myself. I've done it on other games as well, I know. Epi's played in the same games as me a couple of times, so he's picked up the style of my generally awful play.

What I'm about to explain can prove Epi to be either town or scum, but what you decide it up to you.

You've got to pick up the easy meat with your eyes closed.

(I'm a Floyd fan, what do you expect?)

If Epi is scum, he's trying to rid of the easy meat (AKA me) to make a jump start on us.
If Epi is town, he's trying to rid of the easy meat (AKA me) as he assumes I'm an easy scum target.

Anyway, thanks for the compliment Diiny.

Floyd, which do you think is happening here? Are you reading Epi as more likely sincere or insincere, and why?

[MacDougall]

You literally did that though. The question is whether you did it as town by accident despite being genuine about him or as scum for some ulterior reason.

I literally did not do that. I am not to blame for people saying Floyd is good. They are.

Epi your actions are the reason most are town reading Floyd whether or not it's obvious. Floyd has not been town in isolation and yet many are reading him town. He's not attracting votes because people are piqued by your reckless attacking of him early on day 1 for no apparent reason. If I did that to Floyd before you would you vote for Floyd? Would you think I was up to no good? Honest questions.

[MacDougall]

I am going to vote for Epi. Wilgy you can self preservation vote him if you want.

[Epignosis]

Epignosis and Jimmy are very good players and Floyd is very inexperienced. What better way to get the heat off Floyd than by attacking him with unfounded suspicion. Nobody is going to just railroad the poor kid on day 1 or day 2 because Epi comes at him caseless and baseless. And if you don't make a play like that to help Floyd he naturally attracts suspicion like nobody's business. Epignosis has effectively completely achieved the opposite of his stated initial objective, he has made Floyd a town read for most. Do you think that is by accident?

Jimmy took the opposite approach. He's distancing by killing with kindness and at the same time distancing from Epignosis by going hard at him for the weak Floyd read. If Floyd manages to get killed then Jimmy can play the "well if I was a teammate I would never have defended him that much card" and if Epi gets killed Jimmy looks million buck for being his main adversary.

Epignosis and Jimmy's shit slinging match has been exhaustive, and as Zebra pointed out much of what they have pointed out about one another has been inconsistent play, not necessarily alignment indicative stuff. Jimmy has dialed back his read to Epi as wrong, not manipulative at one point and yet still has his vote on him.

They have played exactly as I would expect them to if they were a scum team.

What a crock of shit. You don't know what you would expect of me if I was on a Mafia team with them. You aren't qualified to say that, because you've never even seen me play as Mafia.

If I were on a team with a new or inexperienced person, I would not throw that person under the bus for credibility. That's unsportsmanlike. My goal, especially in a skirmish with no banner or GoC qualification, would be to help the player refine his skills and enjoy the BTSC company. I wouldn't give a damn about winning a game like this at the expense of helping someone gain experience and nurture a potential future relationship. Inexperienced players would be less likely to want to continue playing if their experienced team uses them as fodder and doesn't let them experience the game.

And, just to drive home the point that you know stuff-all about me as Mafia: In all the games I have ever been in from the beginning, having been Mafia many many times, how many times did I throw a teammate under the bus before, say, Day 4?

I'll see if you know the answer to that.

Well that's a reaction. A crock of shit? I think it's a pretty rational tinfoily argument tbh. Epignosis when I say it is what I expect, it is because it is what I would imagine two faceless experienced Mafia players would do. Not a personal read.

Goody.

Second point is bizarre because you are saying that you would be friendly and hospitable to your scum buddy not throwing them under the bus for cred. Well I actually said you threw him under the bus to give him cred so that would fall into that category. Also why would you exclusively be kind to a new player if they were your teammates? If you were bad you'd be a dick to the new guy if he wasn't your teammate?

I have never seen someone bus a teammate for credibility. That is a new one for me.

Of course I have no idea. My argument is tinfoil and also it's more about what I'd expect from an expert scum player than you personally. I don't know you from a bar of soap.

The answer is one.

So your entire argument is strawman.

I'm not making an argument. You are.

[MacDougall]

Fair enough man. Like I said it's tinfoily. There's room for it to just be outright distancing of him without realising the implication anyway.

[MacDougall]

But for an English teacher you have a pretty sketchy definition of the word argument if you think your reaction post to my statement isn't one.

[Epignosis]

You literally did that though. The question is whether you did it as town by accident despite being genuine about him or as scum for some ulterior reason.

I literally did not do that. I am not to blame for people saying Floyd is good. They are.

Epi your actions are the reason most are town reading Floyd whether or not it's obvious. Floyd has not been town in isolation and yet many are reading him town. He's not attracting votes because people are piqued by your reckless attacking of him early on day 1 for no apparent reason. If I did that to Floyd before you would you vote for Floyd? Would you think I was up to no good? Honest questions.

Reckless attacking early? What about reckless attacking late?

You did it to Enrique. You're doing it to me.

I'm intrigued that you think Floyd and I are on the same team, yet you won't vote Floyd out first. You also won't vote 3J first.

[MacDougall]

I didn't say I wouldn't, and there is still time for me to change my opinion, but if it came down to a choice between the three you were already my scum read and for all the reasons you could be their partners you could also just be a bad guy fudging facts. And now you are trying to discredit me by bringing up my day 1 action as though it's an indictment when everyone but you has agreed that it isn't. Rehashing another reason I think that you are shady.

[MacDougall]

Epi tell me do you think what I did in regards to the enrique lynch is the action of a scum? Contributing to a late game swing against a civ is a mightily risky move for a scum to make and it infers there is something to be gained from it. What would I have had to gain from it considering there is no way for me to have known he was the cop.

[Epignosis]

But for an English teacher you have a pretty sketchy definition of the word argument if you think your reaction post to my statement isn't one.

Thanks for telling me. I can sleep better tonight knowing I've been corrected by the rhetorical expertise of Mr. Tinfoil Strawman, ESQ.

[MacDougall]

But for an English teacher you have a pretty sketchy definition of the word argument if you think your reaction post to my statement isn't one.

Thanks for telling me. I can sleep better tonight knowing I've been corrected by the rhetorical expertise of Mr. Tinfoil Strawman, ESQ.

Pfft okay mate.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Diiny ISO

Spoiler: show

Talk to me about day one vanilla civ role claims. My question is: why bother?

Floyd's undermining your efforts as we speak

Diiny's already gotten a decent amount of crap for this so I'm not going to spend too much time on it. My issue with this post is the context in which it came into the thread -- there hadn't been a claim of vanilla town yet. Zebra kind of did I guess, but her first post doesn't have to be interpreted as a roleclaim of any kind. It's a statement of the obvious. I don't know why Diiny brought it up.

Spoiler: show

Talk to me about day one vanilla civ role claims. My question is: why bother?

Floyd's undermining your efforts as we speak

Elaborate.

Virtually all of the time in this kinda setup everyone is going to claim vanilla town on day one. No reason to say it.

Asked to elaborate, this was his response. He's wrong. DrWilgy is the proof of that. I almost never "claim" vanilla. Some people like to do it. However I'm not sure Diiny being wrong about this is indicative of anything re: alignment.

Spoiler: show

I gotta ask, MM, what inspired you to base this around trees?

Yeah, of all the off topic stuff this one pinged me the most. I don't know why. It might be because this is already seriously reminding me of floyd's previous game where he was scum combined with that being his only game. Might be because it's an interaction with someone who isn't playing; it's more timid.

Floyd, say something game relevant please

I think Floyd's post looked like any ordinary OT post minus the green font. It's true that Floyd was frequently OT in Talking Heads, but at this point in this game he had hardly any posts yet so it hadn't been established as some kind of trend. Diiny's accusation here reads a little bit forced. It should be noted that I often force accusations as a townie early on Day 1.

Spoiler: show

Talk to me about day one vanilla civ role claims. My question is: why bother?

Floyd's undermining your efforts as we speak

Elaborate.

Virtually all of the time in this kinda setup everyone is going to claim vanilla town on day one. No reason to say it.

I disagree, especially since I witnessed the Champs game where players tended to throw out peeks, so that they could fake (or real) claim cop later.

In that scenario everyone is going to claim the same thing, though, and this is where my problem with doing so explicitly lies. With everyone providing peeks, everyone inherently claims cop. when we do our peeks zeb's claim is going to change to cop because she'll be providing her peek. providing peeks is a good thing, but my point is that there's no point to also saying 'I'm cop/civ/etc' in a setup where everyone is claiming the same thing other than pushing your own towniness.

I don't really follow you here, Diiny. If you like the peeks strategy, then I am not sure why you care about people actively claiming cop. Non-cop townies leave peeks as a means of cop cover, and actually claiming cop is just another example of the same.

Spoiler: show

Diiny, that is not what I am telling you. I told you I am gauging reads with my actions; I did not tell you that I would be basing my conclusions off of any conversation. I'm curious; are you genuinely confused as to what I'm doing which is only a single instance of the foundation for my entire play style, or are you having me spell it out so explicitly so it will be less effective and the baddies I'm trying to discover will no longer have their guards down? Help me out.

Feels to me like you're playing off what you posted about paradigms as some way of catching scum out and gauging reactions when it's just a milquetoast, objective statement of game fact that's barely relevant. I appreciate what it is you're telling me you're doing but I don't believe your post about paradigms is a good example of it.

What you did do very well, though, is get the thread going like you said you wanted to. Nice juicy day 1

Yellow: *visits Google* Oh.

I don't agree with Diiny here, but I mildly appreciate his methods. Diiny on Day 1 has a way of demanding a lot from others, it's his style of applying pressure and building a viable Day 1. He's also less overtly aggressive about it than he was as the Psycho Killer, so that's decent.

Spoiler: show

Peek on Diiny was red. EZ$$

What's your game, Wilgy?

Na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na WILGY!!!! (is most definitely a doctor) and we should kill the confirmed scum.

Your confirmed scum is not scum, but I'm going to wait and see how you play this.

Initial reaction to Doc's fake red peek. I still feel this is a rather milquetoast reception of something that'd be a damning thing if true. On one hand it's nice that he seems to be giving Wilgy the space to employ whatever gambit he might be employing, but I'd be more comfortable if he didn't sound quite so timid/frozen.

Spoiler: show

I'm not going to be able to post any more and I really shouldn't be posting this because I have a deadline in four and a half hours and I'm not done yet. But basically Wilgy's up to no good. He's left it too late for this to be some kind of ruse with the intention of seeing how fast people bandwagon onto me. That said, it's probably telling how quickly some people bandwagoned onto me. Bottom line: I'm town, and wilgy's trying to get me killed.

I think this is about the point when I started to doubt my early mafia read on Diiny. After enough time had passed for Wilgy's gambit to run its course and nothing had changed, Diiny's patience ended and he took up arms against his attacker.

Spoiler: show

Essay over, feeling GOOD. NO STRESS. let's GO, boys. I haven't read the thread. Ask me questions. throw your shit. Because you're not lynching me and wilgy's lying

He's bringing the snarl now, the proper rage. It could be an act since he was accused of lacking this as the Psycho Killer, but I don't see a reason to make that accusation.

Spoiler: show

ALSO this occurred to me: do cops even get peeks on scum? I don't know how things work here but I've never heard it. He's lying so baaaad. He's so bad.

Yeah, well... eh. Eh? At first I didn't like this post at all, but I might be calmer now. It should be plainly evident to town Diiny that Doc is lying from the word Go, and the mechanical problem with his fake red peek claim wouldn't be necessary to drive that perspective. However, he did accuse Doc of lying multiple times before this post.

Spoiler: show

My bad, didn't realise he played in other games. I'm talking about RYM 90. the talking heads game. He only had a few posts there, you should read them and see how remarkably similar his game is now.

He may have been good on those games. In fact I'd feel worse about him if he was.

linki J: I'd really like to do more than metagame read him but there's literally nothing else to work with. He's a bad read whether I/you like it or not. I can't tell my gut he's not bad without feeding him content. he howls; starving.

linki J again you said you weren't posting as much ergo you're scum

I've given Epi crap for attacking Floyd for no reason, so I should note that Diiny did much of the same on Day 1. Floyd's lack of content on the first game day is a lame reason to read him as mafia or as anything other than neutral in my opinion. Diiny's essentially saying he has no choice but to have that read on Floyd, and that's just not true. To have a strong read on someone without content is by default a forced read unless there is substantial historical evidence to support a correlation of non-posting and mafia alignment. Floyd's too new for that. So this isn't my favorite Diiny content.

Spoiler: show

Probably gonna switch to FZ for self preservation soon

Moving to FZ for self prez and that.

Someone tell me why they're voting me when Wilgy is literally just lying and there's no such thing as a non vt peek

motel room wasn't impressed by this and I can understand why. This came about a full real-time day before the Day 1 deadline, so there was no immediate need for self-preservation. This means that Diiny was relinquishing his vote prematurely, a vote that he could have used a number of other ways in the 25 hours remaining to promote some productive strategy. Uninspiring.

Spoiler: show

Mac's day 1 is solid imo. Shame about his stance on me.

I'm gonna find out if me getting a ping from JJJ is just because he isn't posting or not

Diiny threw a little vague shade at me at various points, and perhaps oddly I'm not bothered. Diiny was probably more attentive to my last game as a mafioso (as JJJ) than anyone else in this game except maybe MP (the champs tournament finale). That was the last game I played when I was as constrained for time as I've been in this one, and honestly I don't feel that different from what I felt in that game -- and I was mafia then. I expected Diiny to be suspicious with that in mind. I probably would suspect me too, at least a bit.

Spoiler: show

I'd throw Jay in with FZ about be kinda wishy washy with their read on me but he feels a tad more genuine, plus he sounds a lot more like he's defending me at times which makes it less likely that he's bad.

One thing that stood out to me: When analysing floyd, jay said he'd 'take whatever he cool' for a town floyd read. I'd like him to explain this before I comment on it. I know he won't be back before the deadline but it's not THAT pressing.

I missed this post before. I am not sure what you were referring to here Diiny or if it even still interests you re: Floyd. The highlighted portion will be my focus here. Why does my defending you make you feel like I'm less likely to be bad?

Spoiler: show

lmao is it confirmed that wilgy's bullshitting now? talking about a thought process that mechanically couldn't have happened?

Still think this was a good point. I'm undecided on Doc's addressing of this point, but I think Diiny was right to make it.

His Day 2 content continues mostly as an extended exchange with Doc about this point and the ensuing argument of WIFOM. I think accusations of WIFOM are among the easiest to make in Mafia so I won't give him sincerity points for this, or dock them.

There's a lot of other content too, but I'm not finding many things that I want to talk about. I don't think that's his fault. I might just be spent.

~~~

Nothing screams at me, but there's more negative here than positive. I think my biggest hesitation about a Diiny lynch is that it just feels like the easy button option, but I don't know if I can support that notion with anything more than my gut.

[Tangrowth]

JJJ, re: your motel room ISO, here are my thoughts:

While I can see where you and Mac are coming from with regards to motel room's suspicion post re: Enrique, I don't feel as strongly, and I can come up with a situation in which a town motel room made the logical jump from failing to understand Enrique's Diiny and DrWilgy connection to failing to understand why Enrique was prioritizing one over another and flopping it. I got hung up with regards to the latter as well, as if Enrique was connecting them together and didn't seem to care which one would go, but then later on he seemed to insist that Diiny should go, then Wilgy. Maybe I'm missing something though that you and Mac are seeing?

I view the fact that motel room announced his view as edgy to be a bad look. One could argue that he specifically manufactured it to be edgy in order to match his town meta, and this fabrication would appear in the fact that he announced it as such.

With that said, I agree that motel room engaging both Wilgy and me separately in conversation regarding Wilgy's strategy are a good look. I hadn't really thought of it with regards to motel room's attempt to form a substantive read on Wilgy, but it makes sense.

I'll think about how it affects him on my rainbow overall, but I think he'll move up a level or two. I'm not willing to call him a moderate town read, but I won't be voting for him today.

Thanks again for producing these.

[Epignosis]

Epi tell me do you think what I did in regards to the enrique lynch is the action of a scum? Contributing to a late game swing against a civ is a mightily risky move for a scum to make and it infers there is something to be gained from it. What would I have had to gain from it considering there is no way for me to have known he was the cop.

A mighty risky move...


MacDougall
0
No votes

[Epignosis]

Right, I'm going to go do something else now.

[MacDougall]

I would like to see some lynch pressure applied to Epignosis so if anyone has a scum read of him and their vote is yet to be cast I would appreciate if you could move your vote there now.

Linki: So is that a refusal to answer the actual questions then Epi?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If I were the mafia team mate of Epignosis, I'd probably night kill him when he isn't looking after too many grammar corrections in BTSC.

[MacDougall]

Epi my vote was already cast. As scum if my vote was already on a civilian the safe play is to just let things play out. For me to change it to another player at the last minute means there must have been a reason. Do you think it was because I felt that he was behaving scum or do you think I did it for nefarious reasons? If the latter what reasons would they be?

[Tangrowth]

Linki- I agree FZ, this game is getting pretty awful.

This game is getting worse by the minute

I need to reread people, and I don't have time for it now.

How much do you want to bet that one or both of these posters are scum

Why?

I explain this, but yeah it's insincere and posts like that (oh man this game eh) have a history of netting scum. You don't agree? I also just recently saw FZ's "Wanna make a bet" post in an iso and that gives me the heebie jeebz hard.

From what I can recall of my experience, I'd say it depends with regards to both "oh man this game" and "wanna make a bet"... too tough to say whether they are general town or mafia indicators. I try not to put any stock in such statements.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I guess that's my last ISO, not enough time for another. Time to decide where Mr. Vote goes.

[Tangrowth]

You put it on yourself, man. I have no idea what you've got against me, but whatever it is, just share it.

Am I not permitted to call you Epi? Give me a reason not to.

My statement refers to he fact that pointed out that Mac gone against his word but you still want me gone.

this is floyd's best post.

I wouldn't have been happy with anything but a similar response thing to Epi's comment about being called Epi, and he questions epi's stance on him as you'd expect. I'd like to see a bit more ferocity, but going on a per-post makes it better. Not that I'm condoning his low post count and that he seems to still be focusing almost entirely on himself. I doubt he'd have questioned epi if he wasn't crusading against him.

Still a scum read.

I don't understand why this is Floyd's best post. Care to talk with me about this?

Makes an argument that makes sense for the first time, reasonable reactions to epi's assault.

Why do you see his reactions as reasonable, and how does this affect your read of him?

[MacDougall]

I guess that's my last ISO, not enough time for another. Time to decide where Mr. Vote goes.

This will interest me greatly.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm considering keeping my vote on Epignosis. I've been given some pause, but I do remain suspicious of him and a lot of what he's done lately isn't as much a town tell as it is a stronger effort. His defenders also remind me of Syndicateers insisting Long Con wasn't mafia "because that's how he plays" and then RYMers insisting Mac wasn't mafia "because that's how he plays" in Talking Heads.

It's one option. Also considering FZ and Diiny. DFaraday as an annoying alternative, though MM did half-insinuate that there's potential for his replacement.

[Tangrowth]

My FZ suspicion hasn't faded. Recent events have me suspish of Diiny, FZ > JJJ > Dfaraday, Epi > everyone else

Wilgy, you still around?

[MacDougall]

MP you said you would analyse my posts. Can you do that rather than call for more content now please.

[Tangrowth]

Mac, just getting to your stuff now. On it.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'd like to hear from Zebra about that Wilgy vote. It surprised me.

[Tangrowth]

Epignosis and Jimmy are very good players and Floyd is very inexperienced. What better way to get the heat off Floyd than by attacking him with unfounded suspicion. Nobody is going to just railroad the poor kid on day 1 or day 2 because Epi comes at him caseless and baseless. And if you don't make a play like that to help Floyd he naturally attracts suspicion like nobody's business. Epignosis has effectively completely achieved the opposite of his stated initial objective, he has made Floyd a town read for most. Do you think that is by accident?

Jimmy took the opposite approach. He's distancing by killing with kindness and at the same time distancing from Epignosis by going hard at him for the weak Floyd read. If Floyd manages to get killed then Jimmy can play the "well if I was a teammate I would never have defended him that much card" and if Epi gets killed Jimmy looks million buck for being his main adversary.

Epignosis and Jimmy's shit slinging match has been exhaustive, and as Zebra pointed out much of what they have pointed out about one another has been inconsistent play, not necessarily alignment indicative stuff. Jimmy has dialed back his read to Epi as wrong, not manipulative at one point and yet still has his vote on him.

They have played exactly as I would expect them to if they were a scum team.

This is plausible.

I don't find myself thinking it's unreasonable...

That said, I think this is incredibly thorough and specific. I've come up with theories like this in past games and I was never exactly right, usually I wasn't even remotely right. I wouldn't seriously consider it unless we had already lynched at least one of them and gotten a mafia flip, probably two.

Taking each part separately, I think I'm more so considering the Epi -- JJJ connection and the JJJ -- Floyd connection than the Epi -- Floyd connection. Epi seems too be too harsh on Floyd for them to be teammates; I think if they had BTSC that interaction seems less believable.

[Tangrowth]

Oh man, running low on time. Crap.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Building entire mafia teams before any of them has died is almost always pointless. Matt F Dougall

[Tangrowth]

Epignosis and Jimmy are very good players and Floyd is very inexperienced. What better way to get the heat off Floyd than by attacking him with unfounded suspicion. Nobody is going to just railroad the poor kid on day 1 or day 2 because Epi comes at him caseless and baseless. And if you don't make a play like that to help Floyd he naturally attracts suspicion like nobody's business. Epignosis has effectively completely achieved the opposite of his stated initial objective, he has made Floyd a town read for most. Do you think that is by accident?

Jimmy took the opposite approach. He's distancing by killing with kindness and at the same time distancing from Epignosis by going hard at him for the weak Floyd read. If Floyd manages to get killed then Jimmy can play the "well if I was a teammate I would never have defended him that much card" and if Epi gets killed Jimmy looks million buck for being his main adversary.

Epignosis and Jimmy's shit slinging match has been exhaustive, and as Zebra pointed out much of what they have pointed out about one another has been inconsistent play, not necessarily alignment indicative stuff. Jimmy has dialed back his read to Epi as wrong, not manipulative at one point and yet still has his vote on him.

They have played exactly as I would expect them to if they were a scum team.

What a crock of shit. You don't know what you would expect of me if I was on a Mafia team with them. You aren't qualified to say that, because you've never even seen me play as Mafia.

If I were on a team with a new or inexperienced person, I would not throw that person under the bus for credibility. That's unsportsmanlike. My goal, especially in a skirmish with no banner or GoC qualification, would be to help the player refine his skills and enjoy the BTSC company. I wouldn't give a damn about winning a game like this at the expense of helping someone gain experience and nurture a potential future relationship. Inexperienced players would be less likely to want to continue playing if their experienced team uses them as fodder and doesn't let them experience the game.

And, just to drive home the point that you know stuff-all about me as Mafia: In all the games I have ever been in from the beginning, having been Mafia many many times, how many times did I throw a teammate under the bus before, say, Day 4?

I'll see if you know the answer to that.

I buy this. It's consistent with what I've heard from and seen from Epi for years.

[MacDougall]

Building entire mafia teams before any of them has died is almost always pointless. Matt F Dougall

You would say that.

You're the second person to call me Matt F today. I think it's pretty conniving tbh.

Jimmy let's lynch Epignosis then and reassess.

[Tangrowth]

Matt F Dougall.

[MacDougall]

Epignosis and Jimmy are very good players and Floyd is very inexperienced. What better way to get the heat off Floyd than by attacking him with unfounded suspicion. Nobody is going to just railroad the poor kid on day 1 or day 2 because Epi comes at him caseless and baseless. And if you don't make a play like that to help Floyd he naturally attracts suspicion like nobody's business. Epignosis has effectively completely achieved the opposite of his stated initial objective, he has made Floyd a town read for most. Do you think that is by accident?

Jimmy took the opposite approach. He's distancing by killing with kindness and at the same time distancing from Epignosis by going hard at him for the weak Floyd read. If Floyd manages to get killed then Jimmy can play the "well if I was a teammate I would never have defended him that much card" and if Epi gets killed Jimmy looks million buck for being his main adversary.

Epignosis and Jimmy's shit slinging match has been exhaustive, and as Zebra pointed out much of what they have pointed out about one another has been inconsistent play, not necessarily alignment indicative stuff. Jimmy has dialed back his read to Epi as wrong, not manipulative at one point and yet still has his vote on him.

They have played exactly as I would expect them to if they were a scum team.

This is plausible.

I don't find myself thinking it's unreasonable...

That said, I think this is incredibly thorough and specific. I've come up with theories like this in past games and I was never exactly right, usually I wasn't even remotely right. I wouldn't seriously consider it unless we had already lynched at least one of them and gotten a mafia flip, probably two.

Taking each part separately, I think I'm more so considering the Epi -- JJJ connection and the JJJ -- Floyd connection than the Epi -- Floyd connection. Epi seems too be too harsh on Floyd for them to be teammates; I think if they had BTSC that interaction seems less believable.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the scum team didn't get to communicate with each other until after Epignosis had already made that move on Floyd. So the idea that their BTSC makes it implausible is irrelevant because hypothetically they hadn't communicated yet.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Building entire mafia teams before any of them has died is almost always pointless. Matt F Dougall

You would say that.

You're the second person to call me Matt F today. I think it's pretty conniving tbh.

Jimmy let's lynch Epignosis then and reassess.

No offense intended if you're reading Matt. Sometimes wild theories make the person generating them look more town, so it's a positive even if the theories are wrong.

My vote's still there. I do admit that this one is a difficult choice. I didn't find any slam dunk baddies in my reviews.

[Diiny]

One of the biggest problem with my stance on Wilgy is that the only people who agree with me are Drlurker and FZ who I also think is bad. I'm not sure if it's fallacious to be questioning my stance on him because of this in a game like mafia. I'm really not a fan of his drunkposting and handling of my very simple question. I think there's a very reasonable explanation for his day 1 as scum.

I honestly expected epi to go somewhere with his floyd shenanigans that wasn't essentially omgussing someone who called him out on it. MP told me it wasn't unorthodox but yeah I'm not seeing anything good. Annoyingly also making me question my floyd view, but floyd's still a bad look.

Surprised to see zeb's switch to wilgy, I felt like as I was grilling wilgy on his nonsense zeb was my antithesis, calling me disingenuous etc. Not sure how this affects my zeb read.

[Tangrowth]

So I just got to the Diiny ISO, but there's less than 20 minutes left.

Mac, are you still considering a DFaraday vote?

Would no one else consider an FZ. vote with me? Even though I'd probably move her up 1 level on my rainbow, I feel more comfortable voting for her than Diiny, Wilgy, Epi, or JJJ.

[Diiny]

Jay, I feel like your iso of me is missing some content. I don't even know what it is, I just went through and felt like I posted more relevant stuff than you commented on. I also feel like we just disagree on floyd.

[MacDougall]

Matt F Dougall.

I am not playing like Matt F at all. I have multiple cases running simultaneously, am being measured and not tunneling anyone. Jimmy's post is a swipe at my credibility and it's unfounded.

[Tangrowth]

Epignosis and Jimmy are very good players and Floyd is very inexperienced. What better way to get the heat off Floyd than by attacking him with unfounded suspicion. Nobody is going to just railroad the poor kid on day 1 or day 2 because Epi comes at him caseless and baseless. And if you don't make a play like that to help Floyd he naturally attracts suspicion like nobody's business. Epignosis has effectively completely achieved the opposite of his stated initial objective, he has made Floyd a town read for most. Do you think that is by accident?

Jimmy took the opposite approach. He's distancing by killing with kindness and at the same time distancing from Epignosis by going hard at him for the weak Floyd read. If Floyd manages to get killed then Jimmy can play the "well if I was a teammate I would never have defended him that much card" and if Epi gets killed Jimmy looks million buck for being his main adversary.

Epignosis and Jimmy's shit slinging match has been exhaustive, and as Zebra pointed out much of what they have pointed out about one another has been inconsistent play, not necessarily alignment indicative stuff. Jimmy has dialed back his read to Epi as wrong, not manipulative at one point and yet still has his vote on him.

They have played exactly as I would expect them to if they were a scum team.

This is plausible.

I don't find myself thinking it's unreasonable...

That said, I think this is incredibly thorough and specific. I've come up with theories like this in past games and I was never exactly right, usually I wasn't even remotely right. I wouldn't seriously consider it unless we had already lynched at least one of them and gotten a mafia flip, probably two.

Taking each part separately, I think I'm more so considering the Epi -- JJJ connection and the JJJ -- Floyd connection than the Epi -- Floyd connection. Epi seems too be too harsh on Floyd for them to be teammates; I think if they had BTSC that interaction seems less believable.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the scum team didn't get to communicate with each other until after Epignosis had already made that move on Floyd. So the idea that their BTSC makes it implausible is irrelevant because hypothetically they hadn't communicated yet.

Oh, this is a good point. Mafia wouldn't get to talk until Night 1, I would imagine.

It nonetheless would require Epi to come out yelling for his teammate's (an inexperienced one, at that) lynch, which is harder for me to believe than the other scenarios still, but yeah, that's true.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jay, I feel like your iso of me is missing some content. I don't even know what it is, I just went through and felt like I posted more relevant stuff than you commented on. I also feel like we just disagree on floyd.

I kind of cut it short at the end. I honestly ran out of things to say, and I don't blame you. I think I'm too tired to keep ISOing right now and you were just the last one I did.

[Tangrowth]

Building entire mafia teams before any of them has died is almost always pointless. Matt F Dougall

You would say that.

You're the second person to call me Matt F today. I think it's pretty conniving tbh.

Jimmy let's lynch Epignosis then and reassess.

No offense intended if you're reading Matt. Sometimes wild theories make the person generating them look more town, so it's a positive even if the theories are wrong.

My vote's still there. I do admit that this one is a difficult choice. I didn't find any slam dunk baddies in my reviews.

JJJ, refer to this question from my response post to your FZ. ISO.

JJJ, thanks for this ISO of FZ.

Third, I'm intrigued that you called your analysis a "mixed bag", because it seemed to me like you gave her significantly more negative points than positive ones. What's making you hesitate to declare her a stronger read?

Thoughts?

[MacDougall]

I will be pushing for Epignosis's lynch unless something occurs to make it impossible at which point DFaraday would be a possible vote.

a2thezebra
MovingPictures07
Sorsha
Diiny
DrWilgy
FZ.
JaggedJimmyJay
DFaraday
motel room
TheFloyd73
Epignosis

This is where I am at right this second.

[Tangrowth]

Matt F Dougall.

I am not playing like Matt F at all. I have multiple cases running simultaneously, am being measured and not tunneling anyone. Jimmy's post is a swipe at my credibility and it's unfounded.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply offense to either of you, nor agreement. I just thought it was a funny portmanteau.

[Epignosis]

Epi my vote was already cast. As scum if my vote was already on a civilian the safe play is to just let things play out. For me to change it to another player at the last minute means there must have been a reason. Do you think it was because I felt that he was behaving scum or do you think I did it for nefarious reasons? If the latter what reasons would they be?

If you were Mafia, would you take the easy road and "just let things play out?"

Nah.

MacDougall

[Tangrowth]

I will be pushing for Epignosis's lynch unless something occurs to make it impossible at which point DFaraday would be a possible vote.

a2thezebra
MovingPictures07
Sorsha
Diiny
DrWilgy
FZ.
JaggedJimmyJay
DFaraday
motel room
TheFloyd73
Epignosis

This is where I am at right this second.

Why am I more town than Sorsha?

[Epignosis]

I will be pushing for Epignosis's lynch unless something occurs to make it impossible at which point DFaraday would be a possible vote.

a2thezebra
MovingPictures07
Sorsha
Diiny
DrWilgy
FZ.
JaggedJimmyJay
DFaraday
motel room
TheFloyd73
Epignosis

This is where I am at right this second.

48 hours to reach a decision and your best move is to follow 3J again at the last minute?

[MacDougall]

Matt F Dougall.

I am not playing like Matt F at all. I have multiple cases running simultaneously, am being measured and not tunneling anyone. Jimmy's post is a swipe at my credibility and it's unfounded.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply offense to either of you, nor agreement. I just thought it was a funny portmanteau.

I'm not offended, I just don't agree and I don't think Jimmy would be making jokes at me if he was a civilian tbh. Civilian Jimmy in this situation would be using this emoticon a lot.