The Syndicate

Why are you patently ignoring my response to you, Scotty, and the question that it contained?

Day 5

Whose kills are as lethal as a schoolgirl's?

Poll ended at Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:43:32 pm


BigDamnHero
0
No votes
birdwithteeth11
1
insertnamehere (17) 6%
DFaraday 2.0
0
No votes
Elohcin
0
No votes
Epignosis
0
No votes
insertnamehere
0
No votes
LoRab
1
SokothQultuq (15) 6%
Quin
0
No votes
rabbit8
2
BigDamnHero (10), sig (13) 12%
Russtifinko 2.0
0
No votes
sig
0
No votes
SokothQultuq
7
Epignosis (5), Quin (6), timmer (7), LoRab (8), DFaraday (11), Elohcin (12), birdwithteeth11 (14) 41%
timmer
1
Russtifinko (16) 6%
Thane Woodson (hosts, deadies, non-players)
5
MovingPictures07 (1), Spacedaisy (2), Scotty (3), JaggedJimmyJay (4), Metalmarsh89 (9) 29%
Total votes : 17

Scotty wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Scotty wrote:Well for one thing, my new top suspicions are LoRab and Epi.

Epi is one person who I've been going back and forth on- for one, I agreed with his views on INH. For two, he's actually been the most vocal civ in the last phase, and when everyone started piling on Sokoth, it was pretty clear from an outside perspective that Sokoth was definitely a mislynch. Trust me, I was screaming. INH's voting pattern is pretty shit. But then again, so is Epi's. Why include Sokoth in talks with INH? I think INH looked much more damning, and if LoRab were to be bad, your choice to put the hammer down on Sokoth looks like someone that chose to vote there when a baddie teammate LoRab nervously exclaimed in the chat "Sokoth is onto me, let's take him down". This one is reaching possibly, but that's a scenario I want to look at the next day.

Do you suspect me or am I a civilian?

Whoopsadoodle.

Scotty wrote:INH's voting pattern is pretty shit. But then again, so is Epi's.

Tell me who does have good voting record. I'll wait.

Better yet, I'll go grab the only meaningful data regarding the voting records of living people for you:

Metalmarsh89
3
Quin (7), DFaraday (8), LoRab (10) 23%

That's it. What do you make of it?

What do you think of the case I laid out Epi? Instead of laughing over a potential "slip", Mr. 'My Keyboard must have a mind of its own this game'.

That should read as the most vocally civ. You sound civ, you really do. That was my reservation.

I'm not laughing, and there was nothing potential about that. You called me one of your "new top suspicions" and then called me "the most vocal civ."

For the sake of argument, let's accept your rephrasing. You say you meant I "read as the most vocally civ." That implies there exists such a thing as "the most vocally bad." Who, in your opinion, fits that description? If you contend that no one does or that there is no such thing, then what you claim you meant to say is inherently meaningless.

Epi, I think I've agreed with just about everything you've said this game, but I disagree that if someone thinks there is a "most vocal civ" then that implies they think there is a "most vocal baddie". How does that work exactly. Couldn't someone think there is a most vocal civ among the civs and then think the baddies are AWOL? Just sayin'.

Frank was in town for Juliet's memorial service. He hugged Shawn and told him, "You made her very happy."

Shawn held his emotions in check and just thanked him. They hugged and parted ways. As Shawn headed to the Blueberry (left to him by Gus), a gun shot rang out. Shawn turned to see Frank crumpled on the ground, a gunshot wound to the head. There was no sign of his shooter.


Lorab has been killed by the Crooked Cops. She was Frank O'Hara. Her secrets have been revealed in the role list.

No one has cracked the safe, keep trying tomorrow night!

You have 48 hours to lynch someone, good luck!

So Lorab was killed (RIP). Why would they kill her when she was being suspected by some?

Epignosis wrote:

Scotty wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Scotty wrote:Well for one thing, my new top suspicions are LoRab and Epi.

Epi is one person who I've been going back and forth on- for one, I agreed with his views on INH. For two, he's actually been the most vocal civ in the last phase, and when everyone started piling on Sokoth, it was pretty clear from an outside perspective that Sokoth was definitely a mislynch. Trust me, I was screaming. INH's voting pattern is pretty shit. But then again, so is Epi's. Why include Sokoth in talks with INH? I think INH looked much more damning, and if LoRab were to be bad, your choice to put the hammer down on Sokoth looks like someone that chose to vote there when a baddie teammate LoRab nervously exclaimed in the chat "Sokoth is onto me, let's take him down". This one is reaching possibly, but that's a scenario I want to look at the next day.

Do you suspect me or am I a civilian?

Whoopsadoodle.

Scotty wrote:INH's voting pattern is pretty shit. But then again, so is Epi's.

Tell me who does have good voting record. I'll wait.

Better yet, I'll go grab the only meaningful data regarding the voting records of living people for you:

Metalmarsh89
3
Quin (7), DFaraday (8), LoRab (10) 23%

That's it. What do you make of it?

What do you think of the case I laid out Epi? Instead of laughing over a potential "slip", Mr. 'My Keyboard must have a mind of its own this game'.

That should read as the most vocally civ. You sound civ, you really do. That was my reservation.

I'm not laughing, and there was nothing potential about that. You called me one of your "new top suspicions" and then called me "the most vocal civ."

For the sake of argument, let's accept your rephrasing. You say you meant I "read as the most vocally civ." That implies there exists such a thing as "the most vocally bad." Who, in your opinion, fits that description? If you contend that no one does or that there is no such thing, then what you claim you meant to say is inherently meaningless.

Great. It's meaningless. You will always win the game of attrition when it comes to nitpicky semantics here.

what do you think of my case on LoRab (since I am not planning on voting for you tomorrow anyway with someone who looks so bad)?

LoRab wrote:Why are you patently ignoring my response to you, Scotty, and the question that it contained?

My opinion of you is mostly (if not solely) hinging on Sokoth's and Quin's interactions with you, and even though I didn't see you as bad until yesterday, my race horse blinders are on. You could give me a bunch of money and tell me I've won the mega lottery and I still wouldn't not suspect you.

Linki: well shit. Sokoth prolly got that red check, and LoRab really was good.

Dammit I'm sorry LoRab

Elohcin wrote:So Lorab was killed (RIP). Why would they kill her when she was being suspected by some?

Yeah I have no idea, except maybe to make me look bad.

Again.

Elohcin wrote:Epi, I think I've agreed with just about everything you've said this game, but I disagree that if someone thinks there is a "most vocal civ" then that implies they think there is a "most vocal baddie". How does that work exactly. Couldn't someone think there is a most vocal civ among the civs and then think the baddies are AWOL? Just sayin'.

That's rather my point. It's an unhelpful thing to say even if one were to accept Scotty's correction.

And for the sake of getting grammatical:

He didn't say "most vocal civ." There's a subtle difference. "Most vocal civ" doesn't change Scotty's original meaning, but "most vocally civ" does. The former is adverb-adjective-noun, while the latter is adverb-adverb-adjective. The former (what he said) designates me as a civilian (noun), while the latter (what he claims he meant) only describes my apparent demeanor (adjective). Those are two different thought processes.

Epi, what do you think of your other suspect from yesterday, INH and his response to his accusations?

Scotty wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Scotty wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Scotty wrote:Well for one thing, my new top suspicions are LoRab and Epi.

Epi is one person who I've been going back and forth on- for one, I agreed with his views on INH. For two, he's actually been the most vocal civ in the last phase, and when everyone started piling on Sokoth, it was pretty clear from an outside perspective that Sokoth was definitely a mislynch. Trust me, I was screaming. INH's voting pattern is pretty shit. But then again, so is Epi's. Why include Sokoth in talks with INH? I think INH looked much more damning, and if LoRab were to be bad, your choice to put the hammer down on Sokoth looks like someone that chose to vote there when a baddie teammate LoRab nervously exclaimed in the chat "Sokoth is onto me, let's take him down". This one is reaching possibly, but that's a scenario I want to look at the next day.

Do you suspect me or am I a civilian?

Whoopsadoodle.

Scotty wrote:INH's voting pattern is pretty shit. But then again, so is Epi's.

Tell me who does have good voting record. I'll wait.

Better yet, I'll go grab the only meaningful data regarding the voting records of living people for you:

Metalmarsh89
3
Quin (7), DFaraday (8), LoRab (10) 23%

That's it. What do you make of it?

What do you think of the case I laid out Epi? Instead of laughing over a potential "slip", Mr. 'My Keyboard must have a mind of its own this game'.

That should read as the most vocally civ. You sound civ, you really do. That was my reservation.

I'm not laughing, and there was nothing potential about that. You called me one of your "new top suspicions" and then called me "the most vocal civ."

For the sake of argument, let's accept your rephrasing. You say you meant I "read as the most vocally civ." That implies there exists such a thing as "the most vocally bad." Who, in your opinion, fits that description? If you contend that no one does or that there is no such thing, then what you claim you meant to say is inherently meaningless.

Great. It's meaningless. You will always win the game of attrition when it comes to nitpicky semantics here.

what do you think of my case on LoRab (since I am not planning on voting for you tomorrow anyway with someone who looks so bad)?

LoRab wrote:Why are you patently ignoring my response to you, Scotty, and the question that it contained?

My opinion of you is mostly (if not solely) hinging on Sokoth's and Quin's interactions with you, and even though I didn't see you as bad until yesterday, my race horse blinders are on. You could give me a bunch of money and tell me I've won the mega lottery and I still wouldn't not suspect you.

Linki: well shit. Sokoth prolly got that red check, and LoRab really was good.

Dammit I'm sorry LoRab

Lorab's gone.

Going to vote for me now, cowboy?

Scotty wrote:Epi, what do you think of your other suspect from yesterday, INH and his response to his accusations?

I have to think.

Were I to vote right now, it would be one of three people: Russ, Scotty, or INH.

Hello Russ.

Who would kill Lorab when someone was talking about lynching her next?

Russtifinko wrote:I think lynching LoRab would be a huge mistake. Epi, I get what you're saying about that looking like a potential bus, but I really don't think that's what's going on here. Besides, MM wasn't lynched, so he couldn't really be bussed. (By the way, thanks for that one, by the way, YinYang). I think looking at other MM connections is a much better way to go, here.

LOL @ MM.

Somebody who had a chat with her.

LoRab wrote:OK. Read up.

Thoughts on the names that have come up, because at this moments, I don't have any suspects of my own and I've been wrong about suspicions up until now, so I'm self doubting, and I didn't have time to read back through earlier posts. Also, it's less than 2 hours, and more names would only make it easier for mafia to manipulate the lynch, assuming (like Epi) many missing voters).

MM I could definitely see as bad. Especially after the vote for Sig, with no stated reason for doing so.

Russ I would be very surprised to find out was bad.

Wilgy, I'm unsure. I'm not very good at reading him. My gut tells me he is civ, but my gut could be totally wrong.

Sig, I really don't think is bad. I'm willing to revisit that at some point, but I don't see enough evidence that he's bad at this point to change my thinking.

So, I'm voting MM, because I think that's where I'm seeing the strongest reasoning at this point.

I think there's enough evidence in sig's favor. I won't vote for him. Wilgy and MM are gone. Russ got the yellow comment. I want to explore that.

The above alongside Russ's ardent "defense" of Lorab is prima facie evidence that Russ and Lorab had BTSC at one point, and that despite the initial anonymity, Russ learned the identity of his company.

Think on that. Lorab had an anonymous chat with Russ, and she clearly trusted him (given the yellow).

Have you ever been bad and received BTSC with a civilian? That can be one of the most nerve-wracking experiences in Mafia...although I'd like to think I've gotten it down to a science.

Or you might just be like Eloh, who unwittingly outed her damn self in Death Note. Good times. *Wipes away a giddy tear*.

Russ' defense is unique.

sig never defended Lorab, and by Day 5 said she warranted a closer look. Dr.Wilgy never defended Lorab. MM was evil and may well have been caught in BTSC. That leaves Russ, who came out defending Lorab.

There are five civilians left.

Shawn Spencer
Carlton Lassiter
Henry Spencer
Abigail Lytar
Woody the Coroner

I don't believe Russ is Shawn or Carlton. I have other people in mind for those two roles. That leaves Henry, Abigail, and Woody. None of those are able to check secrets or roles. And if you are one of those roles, that narrows things down even further.

Russ got BTSC with Frank, figured out that was Lorab, and killed her.

LoRab wrote:Meh.

Epignosis wrote:Who would kill Lorab when someone was talking about lynching her next?

Russtifinko wrote:I think lynching LoRab would be a huge mistake. Epi, I get what you're saying about that looking like a potential bus, but I really don't think that's what's going on here. Besides, MM wasn't lynched, so he couldn't really be bussed. (By the way, thanks for that one, by the way, YinYang). I think looking at other MM connections is a much better way to go, here.

LOL @ MM.

Somebody who had a chat with her.

LoRab wrote:OK. Read up.

Thoughts on the names that have come up, because at this moments, I don't have any suspects of my own and I've been wrong about suspicions up until now, so I'm self doubting, and I didn't have time to read back through earlier posts. Also, it's less than 2 hours, and more names would only make it easier for mafia to manipulate the lynch, assuming (like Epi) many missing voters).

MM I could definitely see as bad. Especially after the vote for Sig, with no stated reason for doing so.

Russ I would be very surprised to find out was bad.

Wilgy, I'm unsure. I'm not very good at reading him. My gut tells me he is civ, but my gut could be totally wrong.

Sig, I really don't think is bad. I'm willing to revisit that at some point, but I don't see enough evidence that he's bad at this point to change my thinking.

So, I'm voting MM, because I think that's where I'm seeing the strongest reasoning at this point.

I think there's enough evidence in sig's favor. I won't vote for him. Wilgy and MM are gone. Russ got the yellow comment. I want to explore that.

The above alongside Russ's ardent "defense" of Lorab is prima facie evidence that Russ and Lorab had BTSC at one point, and that despite the initial anonymity, Russ learned the identity of his company.

Think on that. Lorab had an anonymous chat with Russ, and she clearly trusted him (given the yellow).

Have you ever been bad and received BTSC with a civilian? That can be one of the most nerve-wracking experiences in Mafia...although I'd like to think I've gotten it down to a science.

Or you might just be like Eloh, who unwittingly outed her damn self in Death Note. Good times. *Wipes away a giddy tear*.

Russ' defense is unique.

sig never defended Lorab, and by Day 5 said she warranted a closer look. Dr.Wilgy never defended Lorab. MM was evil and may well have been caught in BTSC. That leaves Russ, who came out defending Lorab.

There are five civilians left.

Shawn Spencer
Carlton Lassiter
Henry Spencer
Abigail Lytar
Woody the Coroner

I don't believe Russ is Shawn or Carlton. I have other people in mind for those two roles. That leaves Henry, Abigail, and Woody. None of those are able to check secrets or roles. And if you are one of those roles, that narrows things down even further.

Russ got BTSC with Frank, figured out that was Lorab, and killed her.

Wait wait wait wait. This analysis was all going so well until the very last line. The whole theory was super well put together, except that I don't see how the conclusion follows. So:

1) LoRab and I had BTSC.
2) LoRab and I trusted and defended each other.
3) LoRab was civ.
4) I am.....bad??

You're giving me way too much credit and not giving LoRab enough if you think I could pull the wool over her eyes like that in BTSC. I'm flattered, but you're flat-out wrong.

I'll be voting timmer again. I'd love to hear some discussion on him, as I put together what I thought was a pretty well-thought-out and airtight (although admittedly poorly timed) case, but the only real response I got was from him, so I feel like I'm talking at a brick wall. His behavior D4 and D5 was just BANANAS, right? And on a pretty pivotal day for the baddies, too!

Has Epi been elected President and Ruler of Casemaking here, or do other people get to have ideas worth talking about too?

Also, keep in mind that LoRab was right to suspect MM and right to not suspect Wilgy. She's probably right about sig too, tbh. So what makes me so special that I'd somehow be bad AND the only read her gut was wrong on?

I'm especially surprised by this given that when I defended LoRab the other day, you seemed to back off.

Russtifinko wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Who would kill Lorab when someone was talking about lynching her next?

Russtifinko wrote:I think lynching LoRab would be a huge mistake. Epi, I get what you're saying about that looking like a potential bus, but I really don't think that's what's going on here. Besides, MM wasn't lynched, so he couldn't really be bussed. (By the way, thanks for that one, by the way, YinYang). I think looking at other MM connections is a much better way to go, here.

LOL @ MM.

Somebody who had a chat with her.

LoRab wrote:OK. Read up.

Thoughts on the names that have come up, because at this moments, I don't have any suspects of my own and I've been wrong about suspicions up until now, so I'm self doubting, and I didn't have time to read back through earlier posts. Also, it's less than 2 hours, and more names would only make it easier for mafia to manipulate the lynch, assuming (like Epi) many missing voters).

MM I could definitely see as bad. Especially after the vote for Sig, with no stated reason for doing so.

Russ I would be very surprised to find out was bad.

Wilgy, I'm unsure. I'm not very good at reading him. My gut tells me he is civ, but my gut could be totally wrong.

Sig, I really don't think is bad. I'm willing to revisit that at some point, but I don't see enough evidence that he's bad at this point to change my thinking.

So, I'm voting MM, because I think that's where I'm seeing the strongest reasoning at this point.

I think there's enough evidence in sig's favor. I won't vote for him. Wilgy and MM are gone. Russ got the yellow comment. I want to explore that.

The above alongside Russ's ardent "defense" of Lorab is prima facie evidence that Russ and Lorab had BTSC at one point, and that despite the initial anonymity, Russ learned the identity of his company.

Think on that. Lorab had an anonymous chat with Russ, and she clearly trusted him (given the yellow).

Have you ever been bad and received BTSC with a civilian? That can be one of the most nerve-wracking experiences in Mafia...although I'd like to think I've gotten it down to a science.

Or you might just be like Eloh, who unwittingly outed her damn self in Death Note. Good times. *Wipes away a giddy tear*.

Russ' defense is unique.

sig never defended Lorab, and by Day 5 said she warranted a closer look. Dr.Wilgy never defended Lorab. MM was evil and may well have been caught in BTSC. That leaves Russ, who came out defending Lorab.

There are five civilians left.

Shawn Spencer
Carlton Lassiter
Henry Spencer
Abigail Lytar
Woody the Coroner

I don't believe Russ is Shawn or Carlton. I have other people in mind for those two roles. That leaves Henry, Abigail, and Woody. None of those are able to check secrets or roles. And if you are one of those roles, that narrows things down even further.

Russ got BTSC with Frank, figured out that was Lorab, and killed her.

Wait wait wait wait. This analysis was all going so well until the very last line. The whole theory was super well put together, except that I don't see how the conclusion follows. So:

1) LoRab and I had BTSC.
2) LoRab and I trusted and defended each other.
3) LoRab was civ.
4) I am.....bad??

You're giving me way too much credit and not giving LoRab enough if you think I could pull the wool over her eyes like that in BTSC. I'm flattered, but you're flat-out wrong.

I'll be voting timmer again. I'd love to hear some discussion on him, as I put together what I thought was a pretty well-thought-out and airtight (although admittedly poorly timed) case, but the only real response I got was from him, so I feel like I'm talking at a brick wall. His behavior D4 and D5 was just BANANAS, right? And on a pretty pivotal day for the baddies, too!

Has Epi been elected President and Ruler of Casemaking here, or do other people get to have ideas worth talking about too?

You skipped several key premises in my argument.

Russtifinko wrote:Also, keep in mind that LoRab was right to suspect MM and right to not suspect Wilgy. She's probably right about sig too, tbh. So what makes me so special that I'd somehow be bad AND the only read her gut was wrong on?

I'm especially surprised by this given that when I defended LoRab the other day, you seemed to back off.

Can you explain how you found out you had BTSC with Lorab as opposed to anybody else?

Russtifinko wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Who would kill Lorab when someone was talking about lynching her next?

Russtifinko wrote:I think lynching LoRab would be a huge mistake. Epi, I get what you're saying about that looking like a potential bus, but I really don't think that's what's going on here. Besides, MM wasn't lynched, so he couldn't really be bussed. (By the way, thanks for that one, by the way, YinYang). I think looking at other MM connections is a much better way to go, here.

LOL @ MM.

Somebody who had a chat with her.

LoRab wrote:OK. Read up.

Thoughts on the names that have come up, because at this moments, I don't have any suspects of my own and I've been wrong about suspicions up until now, so I'm self doubting, and I didn't have time to read back through earlier posts. Also, it's less than 2 hours, and more names would only make it easier for mafia to manipulate the lynch, assuming (like Epi) many missing voters).

MM I could definitely see as bad. Especially after the vote for Sig, with no stated reason for doing so.

Russ I would be very surprised to find out was bad.

Wilgy, I'm unsure. I'm not very good at reading him. My gut tells me he is civ, but my gut could be totally wrong.

Sig, I really don't think is bad. I'm willing to revisit that at some point, but I don't see enough evidence that he's bad at this point to change my thinking.

So, I'm voting MM, because I think that's where I'm seeing the strongest reasoning at this point.

I think there's enough evidence in sig's favor. I won't vote for him. Wilgy and MM are gone. Russ got the yellow comment. I want to explore that.

The above alongside Russ's ardent "defense" of Lorab is prima facie evidence that Russ and Lorab had BTSC at one point, and that despite the initial anonymity, Russ learned the identity of his company.

Think on that. Lorab had an anonymous chat with Russ, and she clearly trusted him (given the yellow).

Have you ever been bad and received BTSC with a civilian? That can be one of the most nerve-wracking experiences in Mafia...although I'd like to think I've gotten it down to a science.

Or you might just be like Eloh, who unwittingly outed her damn self in Death Note. Good times. *Wipes away a giddy tear*.

Russ' defense is unique.

sig never defended Lorab, and by Day 5 said she warranted a closer look. Dr.Wilgy never defended Lorab. MM was evil and may well have been caught in BTSC. That leaves Russ, who came out defending Lorab.

There are five civilians left.

Shawn Spencer
Carlton Lassiter
Henry Spencer
Abigail Lytar
Woody the Coroner

I don't believe Russ is Shawn or Carlton. I have other people in mind for those two roles. That leaves Henry, Abigail, and Woody. None of those are able to check secrets or roles. And if you are one of those roles, that narrows things down even further.

Russ got BTSC with Frank, figured out that was Lorab, and killed her.

Wait wait wait wait. This analysis was all going so well until the very last line. The whole theory was super well put together, except that I don't see how the conclusion follows. So:

1) LoRab and I had BTSC.
2) LoRab and I trusted and defended each other.
3) LoRab was civ.
4) I am.....bad??

You're giving me way too much credit and not giving LoRab enough if you think I could pull the wool over her eyes like that in BTSC. I'm flattered, but you're flat-out wrong.

I'll be voting timmer again. I'd love to hear some discussion on him, as I put together what I thought was a pretty well-thought-out and airtight (although admittedly poorly timed) case, but the only real response I got was from him, so I feel like I'm talking at a brick wall. His behavior D4 and D5 was just BANANAS, right? And on a pretty pivotal day for the baddies, too!

Has Epi been elected President and Ruler of Casemaking here, or do other people get to have ideas worth talking about too?

Airtight? I do not think that word means what you think it means. You still haven't even looked at it without your blunders on.

But I'm going to concentrate tomorrow on the relevant cases, not on defending a vote that I made in good faith.

Ok, so there's a lot I wanna comment on, but don't really have the time/energy to do any sort of epic linki quote-back post so I'm just freestylin' this...most of which is just gonna be rhetorical thoughts I need to get out of my brain so as to free up space for more meaningful contemplations...so here goes...

First off, all these 2.0 players has my mind reeling. I've never really seen this happen before and it's causing me to make me wonder (aside from a lack of replacement players) why they are coming back in which leads me to ponder the hosts motives/rationalizations for allowing them to return in new roles. That in turn leads me down the WIFM road and consider whether they would then assign them to a contrary allignment or keep them civ (as most of them had been in their first incarnation). It also makes reading them harder since we have heard their voices before (potentially laying credibility) but now have to reevaluate those same people under a new light.

Secondly, to Scotty's point. Epi has been very vocal (though he always seems to have been in what I know of his overll play style). I've statd before I thought Epi was civ, so I really don't get the "Scotty baddie slip-up" accusations. If he thought Epi was civ, why is it a slip-up to call him "the most vocal civ?" That being said, I would put Epi in a very rare and exclusive category of mafia players who can convince anybody of anything all the while twisting the knife he stabbed in your back but making you smile as he does it I still believe 99% that Epi is civ, but that remaining 1% makes me wonder if he isn't just playing us all...after all, his theories haven't came remotely close to netting us any baddies yet...

BigDamnHero wrote:Ok, so there's a lot I wanna comment on, but don't really have the time/energy to do any sort of epic linki quote-back post so I'm just freestylin' this...most of which is just gonna be rhetorical thoughts I need to get out of my brain so as to free up space for more meaningful contemplations...so here goes...

First off, all these 2.0 players has my mind reeling. I've never really seen this happen before and it's causing me to make me wonder (aside from a lack of replacement players) why they are coming back in which leads me to ponder the hosts motives/rationalizations for allowing them to return in new roles. That in turn leads me down the WIFM road and consider whether they would then assign them to a contrary allignment or keep them civ (as most of them had been in their first incarnation). It also makes reading them harder since we have heard their voices before (potentially laying credibility) but now have to reevaluate those same people under a new light.

Secondly, to Scotty's point. Epi has been very vocal (though he always seems to have been in what I know of his overll play style). I've statd before I thought Epi was civ, so I really don't get the "Scotty baddie slip-up" accusations. If he thought Epi was civ, why is it a slip-up to call him "the most vocal civ?" That being said, I would put Epi in a very rare and exclusive category of mafia players who can convince anybody of anything all the while twisting the knife he stabbed in your back but making you smile as he does it I still believe 99% that Epi is civ, but that remaining 1% makes me wonder if he isn't just playing us all...after all, his theories haven't came remotely close to netting us any baddies yet...

I think focusing on replacements being alignment indicative is a mistake. So far, it's Russ, DF and me that have come back. We were all announced as civ at death. We replaced into roles from players that went MIa. That's all. I know I can't help what rabbit has done before me.

I would say to your Epi pout that I, again, feel as though Epi is a quandary, and is bringing cases forward, which is what the civs need. Is he a civ bringing discussion, or a Mafia steering the thread?

As for his theories not netting any baddies yet...see...this is my biggest delimma. Epi and I sorta sparred all Downton Abbey until the end: I waffled on whether or not he was bad because he was vocal and putting out arguments and they were almost all wrong. And I was convinced he was steering the thread then.
But we were both civ and we both survived til the end. Somehow.

So even if Epi is Mafia leading us astray, I want to keep looking around, there's still 2 baddies, so it would be nice to eliminate from the slew of other people before Epi. Thass how i see it.

Going back to Shawn.

Either Shawn is very bad at solving puzzles or Yin/Yang are throwing Stephen Hawking-level equations at him.

Aight Russ, I'll look at timmer, since you seem to think tour case is pretty airtight

I've been a civ with BTSC a few times, I usually leave little unnoticeable hints, and I wouldn't be surprised if Lorab was killed for having BTSC. If she trusted the player and told them who she was they'd kill her at the first chance they got.

Scotty brings up a good point on Ying/Yang and riddles. If Shawn is bad at puzzles or inactvie then it doesn't matter, but if the riddles are really that hard perhaps that can help clue us in to who Ying/Yang are?

Scotty wrote:I think focusing on replacements being alignment indicative is a mistake. So far, it's Russ, DF and me that have come back. We were all announced as civ at death. We replaced into roles from players that went MIa. That's all. I know I can't help what rabbit has done before me.

That's true...in the early phases. It is no longer the early phases. It is now numerically impossible for all three replaced persons to be civilian. Impossible. So there is good reason to scrutinize the replacements at this stage.

I've given very little attention to DFaraday. I will now remedy that.

Epignosis wrote:

Scotty wrote:I think focusing on replacements being alignment indicative is a mistake. So far, it's Russ, DF and me that have come back. We were all announced as civ at death. We replaced into roles from players that went MIa. That's all. I know I can't help what rabbit has done before me.

That's true...in the early phases. It is no longer the early phases. It is now numerically impossible for all three replaced persons to be civilian. Impossible. So there is good reason to scrutinize the replacements at this stage.

I've given very little attention to DFaraday. I will now remedy that.

Explain like I'm 5 about that point. Why is it impossible with 5 civilians still alive?

And I'm not saying replacements shouldn't be scrutinized, but the fact that they are replacements is not an alignment indicator.

Why are you misconstruing what I'm saying, Epi?

Epi, what is your take on BWT? I can't seem to get a read on him. It's like I send feelers out and get NO RESPONSE back...

sig wrote:I've been a civ with BTSC a few times, I usually leave little unnoticeable hints, and I wouldn't be surprised if Lorab was killed for having BTSC. If she trusted the player and told them who she was they'd kill her at the first chance they got.

Scotty brings up a good point on Ying/Yang and riddles. If Shawn is bad at puzzles or inactvie then it doesn't matter, but if the riddles are really that hard perhaps that can help clue us in to who Ying/Yang are?

Who do you think is Shawn, sig?

I don't feel bad tracking him down right now openly. I don't know what his role entails with protections as the game goes on, but I'd like to eliminate our Shawn from the suspect pool at our earliest convenience before we start meandering closer to LYLO

Linki: I thought maybe he was a green check from Soko, but the more I think about it, bwt has not been a contributor to throwing Tabasco in the soup this game.

It's timmer, BWT and INH on my head.

Epi STILL hasn't weighed in on what he thinks of INH this phase except to say that he would vote for him.

I also must say, Epi, you really started to get the ball rolling right after MM was lynched. As if to say "we're doing great gang, let's work together to finish this," yet otherwise possibly determining, "shit, we need to fan flames and get people talking every which way. Shaggy and Scooby, you go down that dark hallway with ghostly clanking, and I'll go with Daphne over here to this finely lit motel room"

Epi, why did you vote Sokoth over INH yesterday?

Russtifinko wrote:Sorry everyone. Busiest week I've had at work since I took the job. Not much energy left over for mental/computer work like mafia.

timmer wrote:

LoRab wrote:Also, Mr. Klingon, in your big post where you list all of the players and your thoughts on them, every player is in alphabetical order except for INH. Is that because his name is in a different place in your own list of players because he's your teammate?

Because it's really strange to me that everyone else would be in alpha order except that one.

That's an excellent catch, right there. And the fact that he is an "undecided" is classic baddie teammate.... throw a bit of shade, but not enough that you'd be voting there.

I suppose it's possible, but I would think the one thing a baddie would want to do in a post like that is avoid making their teammate stick out in any way, and checking alphabetical order like that is super easy. It's possible Sokoth was trying to do that and failed, but to me it seems more likely something a civ would do because they're more carefree. I disagree with LoRab's point, here. More importantly, though, this feels opportunistic from timmer, to me, and it got me looking into him.....

timmer wrote:I'm going to vote Sokoth now. Epig's and LoRab's thoughts have me convinced, and I believe INH is bad, as well. He was reading very sensible to me, but his voting with MM against Sig, and Sokoth's putting him last on her list... nope.

Also, in terms of LoRab's game play, this feels like her civvie game. When she's called out as bad she tends, imo, to post less and get more defensive. Here she's much more activelty defending herself and calling people out which fits civ lorab.

I don't like this, either. timmer thought INH was super reasonable and trustworthy, but one medium-sized case from Epi and he's completely sold that INH is bad? He also criticizes INH's vote with MM against sig, which is fair, except that timmer has probably been the most anti-sig person in the game.

I get it - timmer's Zodac experience gies him a different lens through which to view sig's play, so I can see him being more skeptical of sig than most. timmer switched his read on a player from "top X civs" to "top 2 baddies", and having your reasons be
1) Epi said so.
2) He voted for a person (sig) whom I have suspected for days and whom I said was possibly bad as recently as D4, and a confirmed baddie made the same vote.
quote="timmer"]I've put a vote on Wilgy.

Looking back through, I feel like both Wilgy and Sig could be bad, while I'm less sold on the MM case. I trust INH in this game, and haven't trusted Sig all game, however I also see the Wilgy logic, and Eloh is exactly right about the pingy tone of lorab's post, and so it makes more sense for me to vote him and put him ahead than to vote Sig and create a three-way tie that could be open to shenanigans and cause a dead MM instead.

3) A player whose alignment we don't know yet listed INH out of order on their earlier rainbow read. All of these reasons are astonishingly weak and more or less incoherent, and timmer should be getting scrutiny over this.

Note also that timmer had a chance to tie the lynch vote yesterday and refused to do so. Instead he voted Wilgy on the rationale "I also see the Wilgy logic", and specifically cited not wanting to risk MM dying as a reason for his vote!! This is only the second time all game that timmer mentioned Wilgy, the first being on D2:

timmer wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:I say we end our hosts search for a replacement via lynch. Aren't I the nicest?

Wilgy, looking back it seems like your Dom suspicion began with this: "Dom is bad.

He's poking at Lorabbit's twirlibirdimarks after I already inqured about them. While not being directly opportunistic, he's looking for reasons to vote."

Where are you at, now? Obviously still focused on him, but is there more to your thoughts now that a day has passed? How do you feel the lynch went?

timmer essentially defends Dom here. This made sense when Dom was inactive, but I am arguing it makes way more sense knowing that Dom was in fact bad.

All that is far from a defense of INH. I actually would have preferred lynching INH over Sokoth today, and maybe I should have said so sooner. However, I realize that my judgement on INH may be skewed this game since he's been after me since I replaced in this role, so I held off.

This feels like hindsight now with the Day's end so close, but the Sokoth case worries me. There's similarly little resistance to when I went after Scotty, and a number of people (timmer and BWT come to mind, but possibly others) are saying "Sokoth today, INH next!" like it's a foregone conclusion Sokoth will flip bad. Anytime people do that, it makes me think that they probably won't.

This post took quite a turn from where I thought it would go. I've convinced myself to vote timmer, and to keep doing so until he or I is killed.[/quote]

I really like this case.
Timmer has been in my periphery for a bit, and while he led the brigade on me on day 2, which got us nowhere, I didn't necessarily fault him for that.
But his attitude of the past few days after MM flipped bad has me doubling back. I thought timmer thrived after catching a bad guy. Instead, he indeed soft defends Dom/MM and stays rather inactive in regards to building any cases from it.

Since Dom was killed by YingYang twins, he has done nothing in terms of establishing cases. There's this post: where he says he is going to concentrate on relevant cases, and not just defend himself.

Well, OK. He agreed with Epi's "case" on Sokoth and INH. Doesn't really put up any other thoughts. When Russ confronts him, it's just been a "nah, I'm not bad bro" kind of attitude. I feel like he's concentrating on the sun, and if he concentrates too hard, he might be blind in a phase.

Yo timmer, I'm voting you with Russ. Let's see if you can build your own cases, and let's see if anyone comes out of the woodwork to defend you.

This website is giving me a pain in my ass right now.

DFaraday wrote:

BigDamnHero wrote:

DFaraday wrote:I'm really not sold on the Scotty case, so I'd like to discuss other things. For instance:

What does everyone think of those hack Yin Yangs that killed original me?

Well...they suck...and could be just about anyone (though one theory is sig is one of them due to the D1 results). Did you have anything more specific you wanted to discuss about them or did you just want to draw attention away from Scotty? Cuz if you had any insight into who you & yang could be, I'm sure we'd ALL like to hear it...otherwise, speculation on their identities would be pretty fruitless.

I agree with whoever speculated that they have been fairly active players, and that's why they targeted someone who couldn't be traced back to them. I think it's quite plausible that Sig is one of them, but if so, we can't do anything about him for the time being.

What is the purpose of the yellow question? What reason does it have for existing?

Regarding DF's agreement regarding the speculation, I looked back to see who raised the idea that Yin and Yang are "fairly active players," and I could not find who said it between DF1's death and DF2 saying this. DFaraday, can you show me the person with whom you were agreeing?

What follows the underlined originally came from Scotty1, who implied it wasn't a very helpful observation because it didn't narrow the field at all.

DFaraday wrote:

Scotty wrote: MM, because I wasn't satisfied with Dom's posts early on, and MM is doing nothing to make me feel better about that role.

Why do you suspect him again? I never noticed anything suspicious from Dom.

Scotty1 immediately responded to DF2, but DF2 didn't acknowledge or respond to anything Scotty had to say.

DFaraday wrote:I feel like it is probably a post count or something like that. I don't see our hosts setting Herculean tasks for the Mafia to be able to use their kill. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever seen a game where the Mafia had to meet specific criteria every time they want to kill.

This is commentary on the Crooked Cop mechanics before MM got taken out. MM's "task" wasn't Herculean- it was beyond the realm of his control. This post doesn't affect my opinion one way or another, but I decided to include it because it seems relevant.

DFaraday wrote:Looking over our Klingon's posts, this is all he posted during Day 3:

SokothQultuq wrote:Hey, I want to apologize for my absence. I may be unable to post for a day or two. I've got some things going on here. I do apologize family comes first.

I don't like merging real life and Mafia, but I can't help but wonder whether Sokoth's absence on Day 3 was related to the fact that the Mafia didn't kill that night. He was around for the first two Days about the same amount, and I didn't notice anything notably different in style or substance in his posts.

By this point, rabbit8 had the same number of posts as SokothQultuq, though the latter's were meatier. DFaraday, does this line of thinking hold weight against rabbit8/Scotty2?

DFaraday wrote:Sig could also be Shawn, so I'm really not liking that INH and MM are so blithe about voting him. The most likely options to a Sig lynch I see are A) He's Yang and nothing happens again, or B) He's Shawn and we just lost a major civvie.

DFaraday wrote:I'm voting MM. I don't like how he voted Sig without a stated reason, especially considering that the most likely options are a wasted lynch or a big civ loss.

This is a point in DF's favor. He could have voted INH, but instead he chose to put a second vote on MM.

DFaraday wrote:I find Epi's analysis of Sokoth to be compelling, and I agree that it reads like Sokoth was specifically concerned with defending Dom. I still believe that Sokoth's absence throughout Day/Night 3 could have meant that he was unable to fulfill whatever requirements he needed to kill (or if he could fulfill it, just wasn't around, so I'm leaning his way right now.

BDH, pretty sure Quin is a guy. He just has a confusing avi.

DFaraday wrote:Voting Sokoth as well.

This is DF2's last contribution. It's consistent with what he said earlier, but that isn't meaningful to me one way or another. I'm mostly interested in whether or not he thinks rabbit8/Scotty2 is bad based on the same reasoning he gave for voting SokothQultuq- with reasons, of course.

Overall, this is a mixed-bag. There are minor points against DF2, one major point against him (defending Dom/MM and not engaging in any further discussion about it), and then there is that one vote in his favor.

These pages are either taking ages to load or not loading at all.

Scotty wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Scotty wrote:I think focusing on replacements being alignment indicative is a mistake. So far, it's Russ, DF and me that have come back. We were all announced as civ at death. We replaced into roles from players that went MIa. That's all. I know I can't help what rabbit has done before me.

That's true...in the early phases. It is no longer the early phases. It is now numerically impossible for all three replaced persons to be civilian. Impossible. So there is good reason to scrutinize the replacements at this stage.

I've given very little attention to DFaraday. I will now remedy that.

Explain like I'm 5 about that point. Why is it impossible with 5 civilians still alive?

And I'm not saying replacements shouldn't be scrutinized, but the fact that they are replacements is not an alignment indicator.

Why are you misconstruing what I'm saying, Epi?

Am I misconstruing what you're saying? Do you think I'm doing that intentionally? If I am, what motivation as mafia would I have to do that?

There are five civilians still alive. I'm one of them. I believe sig is good. I believe BigDamnHero is good. Math was never my best subject in school, but I'm pretty sure five less three is two, and that two is less than three. That means at least one of the three replacements is bad, and it leaves open the possibility that more than one of them is.

Epi, I do think that Rabbit/Scotty could certainly be Mafia, and that Rabbit's lack of participation could be why they missed the kill. Sokoth just stood out more because he had been posting on Day 2, when there was a kill, whereas Rabbit had seemed consistently absent throughout.

BigDamnHero wrote:Epi, what is your take on BWT? I can't seem to get a read on him. It's like I send feelers out and get NO RESPONSE back...

I don't have one. I'll look over his posts when the site stops being a troll. Plus Scotty is getting all worked up because I apparently haven't answered something about INH and he's getting really antsy about it. So take a number. I'll get to it.

Looking back, I actually can't find where I got that Yin Yang idea from. I'll keep looking in a bit.

sig wrote:I've been a civ with BTSC a few times, I usually leave little unnoticeable hints, and I wouldn't be surprised if Lorab was killed for having BTSC. If she trusted the player and told them who she was they'd kill her at the first chance they got.

Scotty brings up a good point on Ying/Yang and riddles. If Shawn is bad at puzzles or inactvie then it doesn't matter, but if the riddles are really that hard perhaps that can help clue us in to who Ying/Yang are?

These are both good points. First, my question to everyone would be, did any of you get temporary BTSC with another player claiming to be a civ? If others claim they had BTSC with someone claiming to be civ, then its more likely that is what happened with Lorab. If not, I don't think it would be the case. I mean, what kind of role allows you a one-time temporary BTSC conversation?

For the second point, for some reason, I was thinking that the host(s) were the ones making the riddles. Did you read somewhere where it specifically said that Ying/Yang make up the riddles?

Now....anyone willing to gift me their item and I will gift you mine?

Russtifinko wrote:

insertnamehere wrote:I believe the baddies are hiding in the Yes Men. The players who just go with the flow and jump on the bandwagons. Timmer's definitely caught my eye for his complete and utter 180 heel turn from this:

timmer wrote:I feel like both Wilgy and Sig could be bad, while I'm less sold on the MM case. I trust INH in this game, and haven't trusted Sig all game...

to this

timmer wrote:I believe INH is bad, as well. He was reading very sensible to me, but his voting with MM against Sig, and Sokoth's putting him last on her list... nope.

But my vote's going to go to the player I most feel exemplifies the "Yes Man" archetype, BWT. After saying nothing about me for the entire game, he posts a "Yeah, this" to Epi's Sokoth/INH dual indictments, and now wants to lynch me tomorrow. He voted Scotty twice before boarding the Wilgy train, and browsing through his post history, I can barely find any points of value that don't connect to one of those two. This vote is equally a statement of suspicion, and a suggestion for him to step up his game.

So...you agree with me?


I agree that BWT is kind of following the Flavor of the Day case the past few days. I am notorious for misreading him, so I'll let others decide on how it looks. In my experience he's done that before as civ and a bad, fwiw.

I know, I'm as shocked as you. But at this point, you're the person in the thread making the most sense to me. I still haven't seen any response from BWT to my vote against him, and I'm inclined to repeat that vote until he shows up again. At the same time, your case against Timmer makes a lot of sense.

I may just flip a coin.

I hate to add another thing to Epi's queue of requests, but I'd like to ask him why he thinks sig is civlian, and presumably Shawn.

Elohcin wrote:Now....anyone willing to gift me their item and I will gift you mine?

I'll take you up on this offer...

BigDamnHero wrote:

Elohcin wrote:Now....anyone willing to gift me their item and I will gift you mine?

I'll take you up on this offer...

Okay. Thanks!

@HOST - do we have to wait until night to PM you and gift each other our items?

insertnamehere wrote:I hate to add another thing to Epi's queue of requests, but I'd like to ask him why he thinks sig is civlian, and presumably Shawn.

You're jumping in line, but that's okay. This one is easy.

The prevailing idea is that, because sig survived a lynched, he is either Shawn or Yang. The Crooked Cops want Yin and Yang out of the way because Y&Y are a direct threat to their enterprise (see MM). There have been not one, but two failed kill attempts. I believe sig was at least one of those. He wasn't killed.

Are there other possibilities? There always are. But I have to do the best with the information available, and that's the conclusion I have drawn.

The site is behaving itself now. I am cooking though, and then eating. When I return, I'm going to read through INH and birdwithteeth and report. After that, I am going to complete my analysis of the replacements. One of you bad.

Epignosis wrote:

Russtifinko wrote:Also, keep in mind that LoRab was right to suspect MM and right to not suspect Wilgy. She's probably right about sig too, tbh. So what makes me so special that I'd somehow be bad AND the only read her gut was wrong on?

I'm especially surprised by this given that when I defended LoRab the other day, you seemed to back off.

Can you explain how you found out you had BTSC with Lorab as opposed to anybody else?

I'm neither confirming nor denying that I did have BTSC with LoRab in the first place. I don't really think I'd be allowed. I'm just saying that the logical progression of your thoughts up to that point made sense.

timmer wrote:Airtight? I do not think that word means what you think it means. You still haven't even looked at it without your blunders on.

Airtight means exactly what I think it means. Don't patronize me, Scummer.

Linki: Epi, sure, I'll buy that at least one replacement is bad, no problem. But how does that give us a better chance of getting a baddie today? If 1 of 3 is bad, that's a 33% hit rate. That would leave 3 baddies among 6 non-replacements, a 50% hit rate!

So unless you can convince me there's incontrovertible proof 2 replacements are bad, then I think you're oversimplifying and ignoring a lot of useful stuff by limiting yourself to looking only at replacements.

Damn! I thought I had this in my last post. It would've made my linki response to Epi easier to follow, I think. Anyway, assorted miscellaneous responses to posts that caught my eye:

Epignosis wrote:

Scotty wrote:I think focusing on replacements being alignment indicative is a mistake. So far, it's Russ, DF and me that have come back. We were all announced as civ at death. We replaced into roles from players that went MIa. That's all. I know I can't help what rabbit has done before me.

That's true...in the early phases. It is no longer the early phases. It is now numerically impossible for all three replaced persons to be civilian. Impossible. So there is good reason to scrutinize the replacements at this stage.

I've given very little attention to DFaraday. I will now remedy that.

So I think 2 different points are being made here. Epi is arguing a straw man when he, correctly, points out that replacements could be bad. Scotty, however, is also right by saying they're no more likely to be bad than any other player. Unless of course you think being a certain alignment has an effect on the rate of dropping out of games. I don't, but if anybody does think that, I'd be interested to hear why they think so.

DFaraday wrote:Epi, I do think that Rabbit/Scotty could certainly be Mafia, and that Rabbit's lack of participation could be why they missed the kill. Sokoth just stood out more because he had been posting on Day 2, when there was a kill, whereas Rabbit had seemed consistently absent throughout.

DF, you said here that rabbit's lack of participation could be why they missed the kill. Does the fact that MM's kill condition wasn't something within his control change your opinion on this??

Obviously to kill, a PM still has to go in, but that lowers the bar considerably over our previous speculation that the baddies themselves had to be actively meeting goals through their play.

BigDamnHero wrote:Epi, what is your take on BWT? I can't seem to get a read on him. It's like I send feelers out and get NO RESPONSE back...

That's because you do ....BWT has been super duper responsive/involved lately.

Elohcin wrote:First, my question to everyone would be, did any of you get temporary BTSC with another player claiming to be a civ? If others claim they had BTSC with someone claiming to be civ, then its more likely that is what happened with Lorab. If not, I don't think it would be the case. I mean, what kind of role allows you a one-time temporary BTSC conversation?

Elo, the hosts revealed LoRab's role secrets on Page 1. It seems a one-time temporary BTSC conversation with a player of her choice was exactly LoRab's power.

Sorry everyone. Life has just been nuts the last few days. Catching up now.

Elohcin wrote:What line of work are you in BWT?

I work for Kroger as an assistant store manager at a local store in the area. Lower-level management in retail = Crazy, variable work hours from week to week sometimes.

insertnamehere wrote: But my vote's going to go to the player I most feel exemplifies the "Yes Man" archetype, BWT. After saying nothing about me for the entire game, he posts a "Yeah, this" to Epi's Sokoth/INH dual indictments, and now wants to lynch me tomorrow. He voted Scotty twice before boarding the Wilgy train, and browsing through his post history, I can barely find any points of value that don't connect to one of those two. This vote is equally a statement of suspicion, and a suggestion for him to step up his game.

Due to lack of time in that moment, I was willing to defer to Epig's judgement since I trusted him. Plus, I felt both you and Sokoth were bad (turns out I was totally wrong there).

How have I been a "Yes Man"? I've been pretty active for most of this game and am contributing my own thoughts pretty often. Do you have any evidence that says otherwise about my behavior for this game?

timmer wrote:Considering that mm voted for Sig, I'd think that my choosing not to vote for him yesterday would be seen in a good light, not a bad one.

It does in hindsight, but I'm not sure about that moment in time. To me, it looks more like you did a 180 rather than changed your mind due to new evidence. Unless I missed something where you had suspected MM previously.