Romance of the Three Kingdoms [ENDGAME]

[Golden]

Look at marmot being all mature.

[nutella]

OK, caught up. MP, I'll start working on answering your questions but I probably won't make it before Epi closes the thread.

[Turnip Head]

Marsh doesn't seem nervous at all. This worries me

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I see I arrived home in time for the big combat.

<grabs popcorn>

[Turnip Head]

Confucius say war not determine who is right, war determine who is left.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Confucius say war not determine who is right, war determine who is left.

Confucius was good at English wordplay.

[Spacedaisy]

I have in no way caught up. I decided to cast a vote for a couple people for self voted. When I looked at who self voted there were three, so then I looked at who they voted for other than themselves and I found that of the three Bullz only voted for himself. Therefore I voted for the two guys who self voted and yet still voted for someone else too.

Voted bwt and Bass.

Sorry for being such suck, but I am nearly done moving most of my crap and Psych just ended. So it will get better here.

If this was your logic, I would have expected to see you put a vote on timmer, who didn't even vote for himself. Why not?

I have in no way caught up. I decided to cast a vote for a couple people for self voted. When I looked at who self voted there were three, so then I looked at who they voted for other than themselves and I found that of the three Bullz only voted for himself. Therefore I voted for the two guys who self voted and yet still voted for someone else too.

Voted bwt and Bass.

Sorry for being such suck, but I am nearly done moving most of my crap and Psych just ended. So it will get better here.

If this was your logic, I would have expected to see you put a vote on timmer, who didn't even vote for himself. Why not?

This is expected you voted for those who self-voted because they were voting randomly. This point is moot if it's not where you were coming from.

Forgive me Quin, but I don't have the first clue what you mean. I think perhaps you have misunderstood what my reasoning for my votes were, which is my fault because I don't think I explained well.

My first thought was, I should just self vote because I am not an informed voter.

Then I realized, hey I have two votes! This makes it invalid for me to vote for myself and then one for someone else because I would basically be placing an uninformed vote anyway for my second vote.

Then I thought, well maybe should vote for myself and someone else who self voted, because clearly they are in the same place and me and we are probably the least engaged players so far, so it would make the most sense for me to put my vote there.

Then when I came in and saw that there were three people who self voted, I had to decide how to choose which one to cast my second vote for. As I was looking at their own second votes, it hit me that two of them (bwt and Bass) cast their second vote for someone else, not a self voter. But BUllzeye, he only cast one vote, for just himself. This was a true self vote. But these other two struck me as disingenuous because if you are already casting an uninformed vote for someone, why even bother with the self vote? It becomes a moot point. And moreover, it is a fairly safe vote. So I chose to vote for two self voters who also cast votes that I found to be slightly questionable.

:shrugs: I know it isn't something solid, but it is how my brain worked.

[Tangrowth]

Apologies for the site problems, folks. Not sure what's going on. Going to look into it again tonight though because there's clearly something in the works.

[Turnip Head]

DDL, were there RL concerns that made you vote somewhat early? Or were you just that sure about your votes?

[Turnip Head]

Ignore my question please.

[Turnip Head]

Is it too much to ask we be allowed one reaction type post at the end of lynches?

[Quin]

I have in no way caught up. I decided to cast a vote for a couple people for self voted. When I looked at who self voted there were three, so then I looked at who they voted for other than themselves and I found that of the three Bullz only voted for himself. Therefore I voted for the two guys who self voted and yet still voted for someone else too.

Voted bwt and Bass.

Sorry for being such suck, but I am nearly done moving most of my crap and Psych just ended. So it will get better here.

If this was your logic, I would have expected to see you put a vote on timmer, who didn't even vote for himself. Why not?

I have in no way caught up. I decided to cast a vote for a couple people for self voted. When I looked at who self voted there were three, so then I looked at who they voted for other than themselves and I found that of the three Bullz only voted for himself. Therefore I voted for the two guys who self voted and yet still voted for someone else too.

Voted bwt and Bass.

Sorry for being such suck, but I am nearly done moving most of my crap and Psych just ended. So it will get better here.

If this was your logic, I would have expected to see you put a vote on timmer, who didn't even vote for himself. Why not?

This is expected you voted for those who self-voted because they were voting randomly. This point is moot if it's not where you were coming from.

Forgive me Quin, but I don't have the first clue what you mean. I think perhaps you have misunderstood what my reasoning for my votes were, which is my fault because I don't think I explained well.

My first thought was, I should just self vote because I am not an informed voter.

Then I realized, hey I have two votes! This makes it invalid for me to vote for myself and then one for someone else because I would basically be placing an uninformed vote anyway for my second vote.

Then I thought, well maybe should vote for myself and someone else who self voted, because clearly they are in the same place and me and we are probably the least engaged players so far, so it would make the most sense for me to put my vote there.

Then when I came in and saw that there were three people who self voted, I had to decide how to choose which one to cast my second vote for. As I was looking at their own second votes, it hit me that two of them (bwt and Bass) cast their second vote for someone else, not a self voter. But BUllzeye, he only cast one vote, for just himself. This was a true self vote. But these other two struck me as disingenuous because if you are already casting an uninformed vote for someone, why even bother with the self vote? It becomes a moot point. And moreover, it is a fairly safe vote. So I chose to vote for two self voters who also cast votes that I found to be slightly questionable.

:shrugs: I know it isn't something solid, but it is how my brain worked.

What do you think about timmer? Your argument suggests that you were putting your vote down on someone who made uninformed votes, but timmer not only made two (one more than the two you voted for) but the two he did vote were leading the lynch train at that point in time.

[nutella]

Alright, here's another random observation I thought of: nutella is reminding me of myself when I'm bad. I appreciate her contributions, but they've been devoid of actual substance and too go-with-the-flowy. See the below post:

Top candidates for my votes are MM, Dom, and maybe Russ or Bubbles. MM is looking more and more suspicious to me, I already bought JJJ's case and now all of MM's responses are rather disturbingly cavalier and many of his recent posts I have found suspicious in and of themselves. Earlier I said I didn't like either Dom's or Bubbles' votes; I'm pretty convinced that Bubbles is being her usual self but that doesn't preclude her being bad. Dom is just being incredibly annoying and not really providing sufficient content imo due to his obnoxious posting gimmick, and I am still perplexed by his voting behavior. And I'm keeping Russ on my list as well, since he hasn't given me a great impression overall, and I look forward to seeing what he has to contribute today.

Speaking of contributing, there are numerous players I would love to hear more from. INH, Niju, Bullz, Dunny, Timmer... where you at?

MM, Dom, and Russ are the 'hot button' candidates right now, and Bubbles is a semi-hot one. That's not particularly inspiring in and of itself, but then check out the orange stuff.

So what's wrong with the orange stuff?
1) Very strong, assertive language, like "pretty convinced", "incredibly annoying", "disturbingly cavalier", "more and more suspicious", especially given a lack of substantive reasons for those strong opinions.
2) The fact that she is OK voting for Dom because he is "just being incredibly annoying".
3) The fact that she is OK voting for Russ for such a vague reason.
4) The fact that she is OK voting for Bubbles for, again, essentially a non-reason.

nutella, please elaborate. I'm concerned. I don't understand what makes your views of these players any more alarming than most of the rest of the players in the game, considering that none of their behavior also fits your descriptions for voting those three candidates (like 'precludes from being bad', 'usual self', 'not really providing sufficient content', etc.

1) OK, so first you say my posts are "devoid of actual substance" and then you knock them for having too strong language/opinions. There's not a lack of substantive reasons, I just don't feel the need to restate them when they're basically the same reasons other people have stated. I did feel pretty strongly about MM being "cavalier" at that point.
2) That is not why I was considering Dom. His annoying posting style was not the sole reason I found him suspicious, but it was related because it seems to affect the way he comments on stuff -- it seems like because of the persona he's putting on, his posts have been rather thin/only saying one thing at a time or responding to one person and always with a strong, accusatory dismissal of whoever he's responding to. In turn this leads to me perceiving his posts to have "insufficient content" because it feels like he's not saying much, even if he has provided a couple original thoughts (a lot of them have been kinda No U-ish though, which again fails to impress me).
3) Again, my inclusion of Russ was based on parts of JJJ's discussion of him, which I had mixed feelings on. Any willingness I had to vote for Russ was pretty weak, but I was keeping him on the back of my list because I agreed with about half of JJJ's case and I also didn't like his response to the lynch result.
4) I thought Bubbles' vote was suspicious. I also could see her behaving that way innocently. She was another consideration at the back of my list.

A few questions for you as well:
1) What other posters in the game have provided more sufficient content than Dom?
2) What content can you find in Dom's posts? Because I can find some, even if it isn't strongly supported. Let's compare.
3) Which posts of MM's are "suspicious in and of themselves" and why?

Oh, and that that yellow stuff? That's the kicker to what's reminding me of myself when bad. I love throwing out those lines.

1) Several. JJJ, Scotty, DDL, Mac, Quin, at the very least. Obviously a lot of players have contributed much less than Dom, but that doesn't mean I'm entirely happy with his contributions.
2) There was the whole Bass thing, which was weird. And more recently the DF thing, which feels very no-u-y. Like I said, he has provided some original content, but it hasn't impressed me.
3) He didn't really respond to most of JJJ's points against him, except that he likes WIFOM. He also had that weird self-voting deal with TH that didn't end up happening. And I didn't understand his whole "if there hadn't been duels I wouldn't have voted Wilgy" bit, he didn't really explain what he meant by that. And just in general, his posts have been rather terse/minimal and that exudes an air of confidence that gives me a not-so-great vibe.

As for pointing out who I wanted to hear from, those were just my genuine thoughts/observations -- people like INH, Dunny, and Niju had been fairly active on Day 0 and then just simply disappeared and were never heard from again. I mentioned them because it felt like the thread was only being populated by a very small subset of the player roster, and I wanted to hear from a greater breadth of players.

Furthermore, and again we're on meta here, nutella has a VERY strong and consistent meta phenomenon. She is always incredibly unsure of herself when she's civilian. See Bullets Over Broadway. She's conducting herself with confidence and incredibly strong language and assertive statements without wavering. That's not only suspicious at face value because she provides no substantive backing for those statements and is piggybacking onto the three people with the most heat going into this phase, but additional cause for concern from a meta level.

I've kind of answered this already, but I don't feel like my playing here has been inconsistent with my meta. I'm still pretty unsure of myself. You keep saying I've used strong and assertive language, but that was only a couple times (in the post you point it out in above, I was already being pretty wishy-washy wrt Bubbles and Russ, and I've more recently been waffling on Dom) and for the most part my opinions have been influenced by other players such as JJJ.


Oh hey, thread's still open. Have a post.

[Quin]

Oh, maybe I'll actually get to see the lynch post. I've gotta run in about 20 minutes.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

DDL, were there RL concerns that made you vote somewhat early? Or were you just that sure about your votes?

The biggest RL concern of all. Mondays.

(I saw the following post but wanted to say this anyway)

[Epignosis]

This website needs a beating from Guan Yu. I think it's letting me do my thing now.

[Epignosis]

Who is a threat to the Han? Appoint two for the duel.

Poll ended at Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:20 pm

Bass_the_Clever
2
Bass_the_Clever (28), Spacedaisy (35)
4%

birdwithteeth11
3
birdwithteeth11 (22), Nerolunar (25), Spacedaisy (34)
5%

Boomslang
0
No votes

Bubbles
0
No votes

Bullzeye
1
Bullzeye (29)
2%

DFaraday
1
Dom (17)
2%

DisgruntledPorcupine
0
No votes

Dom
6
Scotty (5), DFaraday (9), Quin (13), timmer (23), Glorfindel (43), Metalmarsh89 (54)
11%

Dragon D. Luffy
0
No votes

Dunny
1
MacDougall (15)
2%

Elohcin
0
No votes

Glorfindel
1
nijuukyugou (19)
2%

Golden
1
nijuukyugou (20)
2%

insertnamehere
1
Sorsha (36)
2%

JaggedJimmyJay
1
Simon (2)
2%

Jan
2
birdwithteeth11 (21), Boomslang (50)
4%

leetic
1
LoRab (46)
2%

LoRab
1
LoRab (47)
2%

MacDougall
0
No votes

Metalmarsh89
10
Scotty (6), Jan (8), DFaraday (10), Dragon D. Luffy (11), Quin (14), Bass_the_Clever (27), Elohcin (38), Turnip Head (44), Boomslang (51), nutella (52)
18%

MovingPictures07
0
No votes

Nerolunar
0
No votes

nijuukyugou
0
No votes

nutella
1
MovingPictures07 (32)
2%

Quin
0
No votes

rabbit8
0
No votes

Russtifinko
8
Dragon D. Luffy (12), MacDougall (16), timmer (24), JaggedJimmyJay (30), Elohcin (39), Golden (40), DisgruntledPorcupine (49), Metalmarsh89 (55)
15%

Scotty
0
No votes

sig
2
Dom (18), Turnip Head (45)
4%

Simon
1
Simon (3)
2%

Soneji
0
No votes

Sorsha
2
Sorsha (37), Glorfindel (42)
4%

Spacedaisy
0
No votes

S~V~S
0
No votes

TheCapsFan
0
No votes

timmer
6
Nerolunar (26), JaggedJimmyJay (31), MovingPictures07 (33), Golden (41), DisgruntledPorcupine (48), nutella (53)
11%

Turnip Head
1
Jan (7)
2%

Ma Teng (The Host, the Non, the Dead)
2
Epignosis (1), juliets (4)
4%


Total votes : 55

[Spacedaisy]

I knew nothing abut Timmer. As I mentioned, I am in no way caught up.

[Epignosis]

The Duel of the Second Day

董塗南

Russtifinko defeated MetalMarsh89 in a duel after two bouts.
MetalMarsh89 was Dong Tu Na.

It is now Night 2. You have 23 hours to submit your PMs.

[Epignosis]

Day 3: A Prefect is Slain; An Emissary Discovers a Body

冷水

It is time to return to one of the prefects, Jagged Jimmyjay. When he heard of the slaughter of the animals the Nanman and the Yellow Turbans had carried out, he burned with anger. He called his servant to fetch his weapon and follow him into the forest. “Build a fire and then fill this kettle with water from the river there,” he said to the servant. Jagged Jimmyjay watched as the servant followed his orders. “Now boil the water over the fire,” he said. “And I will return.” The servant watched Jagged Jimmyjay run further into the woods with his weapon in his hand. Jagged Jimmyjay returned holding the severed head of a Nanman barbarian. Then he grabbed the kettle from the fire and doused the water all over his servant, who cried out. “Why do you cry out?” Jagged Jimmyjay asked. “It’s still cold.”

When report of this reached the Nanman king, he called for the head of Jagged Jimmyjay, and offered a handsome reward of exotic treasure. For this reason, even those who once supported Jagged Jimmyjay turned against him. They bound him and brought him to the main village and executed him. They gave Meng Huo what he wanted, and in return, he promised to leave their people and fields alone for a year, telling them that mercy is an exotic gift that is rare even among the Nanman. In this way were the people deceived.

When the people’s emissary was returning with the unfortunate report, he found the body of a stranger by the river. He observed this as an omen of more bad tidings to come.

S~V~S has been killed by the Yellow Turbans.
JaggedJimmyJay has been killed by the Nanman.
Ricochet is replacing rabbit8.
It is now Day 3. You have 48 hours and two votes each to decide who will be in the third duel.

[Epignosis]

"Dom was saved."

[Golden]

Damn JJJ and SVS killers. I don't like you.

Well done on getting MM, which I didn't see coming. My champs game is now over (yay for winning!), which you might say in theory now means I will read this thread.

In theory, I will. I'll at least be a little more engaged in the game. But I still don't intend to go full golden. My wife was very obliging in letting me play the champs finale, but I've pretty much promised to be on mafia break right now, so this game is still something I'm intending to take very easy.

[Scotty]

RIP JJJ and SVS.

MM playing the WIFOM card with Wilgy. Lol this isn't the first time they have done that.

This is actually going remarkably well so far.

I'm slightly confused of the killing of SVS. I understood JJJ for sure, and I'm sorry to see him go. Then there were 2 prefects. Some would even say INH doesn't exist since he hasn't been here since the Cretaceous period but I digress.

I think that Dom could have been saved, O talker to the thread, but I want to focus on finding who didn't like Mm being thrust into the limelight. Someone that didn't like my initial vote and the votes that followed

[Ricochet]

*rides into the thread on top of a chinese dragon*

"Saved" is such a vague term. Is it supposed to mean protected? Is it supposed to place him in civ camp? It is supposed to be an informed information, coming from a Messenger? Who previously called JJJ bad? (granted, the second team scenario exists for JJJ as well)

I find the message conflicting with my own read on Dom's activity, which can be basically summed up as kill it with fire.

[birdwithteeth11]

Alright. So I have still not caught up any more, and I am now about 15 pages behind. So I have 1 of 2 options:

1) Give up and ask to be replaced because I do not have the free time right now to read through the amount of posts I need to get through to catch up.

2) Start from scratch right now and build on from there.

And I'm going to try option #2. Soooooo....anyone got some Cliff Notes for what's happened so far?

[Ricochet]

I'm not done with individual reads on D2 voters and it's 2:30am, but here is a first half of prepared post that I can publish for now, to get discussion started.

"So I'd say the best path to figure things further is to look into the votes that influenced MM's lynch. Not to say I wouldn't embrace correlating both lynches or ISO'ing, but honestly I haven't managed to look into that just yet (as for the latter, as far as I'm concerned, at a current roster of 30-something, noooooooooope). Besides, I think the prospect of losing a second teammate should in theory have buzzed a few alarms among the Nanmans - granted, they've now been reduced merely to the same number as the other mafia team and still seem the stronger one on paper*, so maybe "alarm" is a strong word at this point, but I think there's cause to look at potential players who either might have attempted to steer the train away from MM, either trust his odds, let him have his duel and distance themselves from all of it.

*this also reminds me to point out the incapacitator within their ranks. Admist the D2 absentees, there have been a couple of significant names: I'd say INH probably ranks as the likeliest target, particularly given his prefect anointment - he didn't exactly have a marvellous activity on D1 either, but still... - which is something I noticed a few people, when they expressed their disdain at his inactivity, never bring up or consider; other prisoners could have been Dunny or leetic, I suppose; then there are the near or complete inactives (SVS, rabbit8 back then, Soneji), but I find it hard to imagine what would the incapacitator have gained from targeting them.

As you will see below, MM was constantly in pole position and the odds of him escaping a duel spot altogether seemed generally remote, but I do spot a few pressure points when the tally was close. At vote value, I find that timmer and Golden look the worst, for narrowing the distance between MM and the other wagons, plus, in fact, voting the other wagons. A third player to have done in principle the same would be DisgruntledPorcupine - late EoD, but poll was still an hour away from closing, so not inconceivable for things to have changed - however I'll let you gaze on your own at the inscrutable nature of his glorious single, unreasoned, un-anything vote post.

Here's how the tally evolved yesterDay. (Asterisks in front of a voting player means that they've self-voted, which was an interesting trend to note).

Voter	10 votes	9 votes	8 votes	7 votes	6 votes	5 votes	4 votes	3 votes	2 votes	1 vote
Simon*	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	JaggedJimmyJay, Simon
Scotty	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	Dom, MM, JaggedJimmyJay, Simon
Jan	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	MM	Dom, JaggedJimmyJay, Simon, Turnip
DFaraday	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	MM	Dom	JaggedJimmyJay, Simon, Turnip
DDL	-	-	-	-	-	-	MM	-	Dom	JaggedJimmyJay, Simon, Russ, Turnip
Quin	-	-	-	-	-	MM	-	Dom	-	JaggedJimmyJay, Simon, Russ, Turnip
Mac	-	-	-	-	-	MM	-	Dom	Russ	Dunny, JaggedJimmyJay, Simon, Turnip
Dom	-	-	-	-	-	MM	-	Dom	Russ	DFaraday, Dunny, JaggedJimmyJay, Sig, Simon, Turnip
Ninja	-	-	-	-	-	MM	-	Dom	Russ	DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, JaggedJimmyJay, Sig, Simon, Turnip
BWT*	-	-	-	-	-	MM	-	Dom	Russ	BWT, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, Jan, JaggedJimmyJay, Sig, Simon, Turnip
timmer	-	-	-	-	-	MM	Dom	Russ	-	BWT, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, Jan, JaggedJimmyJay, Sig, Simon, Turnip
Nerolunar	-	-	-	-	-	MM	Dom	Russ	BWT	DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, Jan, JaggedJimmyJay, Sig, Simon, timmer, Turnip
Bass*	-	-	-	-	MM	-	Dom	Russ	BWT	Bass, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, Jan, JaggedJimmyJay, Sig, Simon, timmer, Turnip
Bull*	-	-	-	-	MM	-	Dom	Russ	BWT	Bass, Bull, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, Jan, JaggedJimmyJay, Sig, Simon, timmer, Turnip
JJJ	-	-	-	-	MM	-	Dom, Russ	-	BWT, timmer	Bass, Bull, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, Jan, JaggedJimmyJay, Sig, Simon, Turnip
MP	-	-	-	-	MM	-	Dom, Russ	timmer	BWT	Bass, Bull, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, Jan, JaggedJimmyJay, nutella, Sig, Simon, Turnip
Sorsha*	-	-	-	-	MM	-	Dom, Russ	timmer	BWT	Bass, Bull, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, INH, Jan, JaggedJimmyJay, nutella, Sig, Simon, Sorsha,Turnip
Spacedaisy	-	-	-	-	MM	-	Dom, Russ	BWT,timmer	Bass	Bull, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, INH, Jan, JaggedJimmyJay, nutella, Sig, Simon, Sorsha, Turnip
Elohcin	-	-	-	MM	-	Russ	Dom	BWT, timmer	Bass	Bull, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, INH, Jan, JaggedJimmyJay, nutella, Sig, Simon, Sorsha, Turnip
Golden	-	-	-	MM	Russ	-	Dom, timmer	BWT	Bass	Bull, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, INH, Jan, JaggedJimmyJay, nutella, Sig, Simon, Sorsha, Turnip
Glorfindel	-	-	-	MM	Russ	Dom	timmer	BWT	Bass, Sorsha	Bull, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, INH, Jan, JaggedJimmyJay, nutella, Sig, Simon, Turnip
Turnip	-	-	MM	-	Russ	Dom	timmer	BWT	Bass, Sig, Sorsha	Bull, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, INH, Jan, JaggedJimmyJay, nutella, Simon, Turnip
LoRab*	-	-	MM	-	Russ	Dom	timmer	BWT	Bass, Sig, Sorsha	Bull, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, INH, Jan, JaggedJimmyJay, leetic, LoRab, nutella, Simon, Turnip
DP	-	-	MM	Russ	-	Dom, timmer	-	BWT	Bass, Sig, Sorsha	Bull, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, INH, Jan, JaggedJimmyJay, leetic, LoRab, nutella, sig, Simon, Turnip
Boomslang	-	MM	-	Russ	-	Dom, timmer	-	BWT	Bass, Jan, Sig, Sorsha	Bull, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, INH, JaggedJimmyJay, leetic, LoRab, nutella, sig, Simon, Turnip
nutella	MM	-	-	Russ	timmer	Dom	-	BWT	Bass, Jan, Sig, Sorsha	Bull, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, INH, JaggedJimmyJay, leetic, LoRab, nutella, sig, Simon, Turnip
MM	MM	-	Russ	-	Dom, timmer	-	-	BWT	Bass, Jan, Sig, Sorsha	Bull, DFaraday, Dunny, Glorfindel, Golden, INH, JaggedJimmyJay, leetic, LoRab, nutella, sig, Simon, Turnip

[nutella]

Damn, RIP JJJ and SVS.

Great lynch though! He was Wilgy's teammate after all

It's possible Dom was saved, but since MM is confirmed bad I'm going to prioritize looking into the people who placed their votes on two candidates other than MM who were getting several votes. Looking at the poll history, that includes Timmer, Golden, and DP. All fairly quiet players so far (though Golden just said he's about to be a little more active), and I could see any/all of them as baddies hiding utr. Timmer stands out to me with his particularly suspicious voting. I could also add MP to the list of people who attempted to steer away from MM (and also from Dom).


Linki: Well now I look silly since Rico just mentioned the same three people. I don't at all understand what's going on in that chart though, could you explain it a bit more?

[nutella]

I could also add MP to the list of people who attempted to steer away from MM (and also from Dom).

ETA- and also from Russ, for whatever that's worth

[nutella]

Oh I think I get the chart now?

[Ricochet]

Linki: Well now I look silly since Rico just mentioned the same three people. I don't at all understand what's going on in that chart though, could you explain it a bit more?

It expands upon the order in which players voted (first column, from top to bottom) and how the tally evolved (other columns, to be read from right (players who got just one) to left (all the way to MM getting 10 votes in total)).

linki:

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Not being able to post at night really sucks for me because that's how I usually get myself caught up and claw my way into a game.

If I may make a recommendation...

I've found that dead night phases can offer an opportunity to catch up while the thread isn't simultaneously exploding. It's a nice opportunity to look through things at your own pace and identify posts people make that you want to talk about. You can even prepare your posts ahead of time, maybe in Word or Notepad or wherever, and then whenever you're around during the following day phase you can just dump those pre-made posts straight into the thread. The conversation of the hour may be somewhere else, but who cares. Say your piece.

To be fair nights are usually active enough for that to change much.

I actually prefer night posting becaise it allows you to reply things immediately instead of trying to remember what you are gonna say next day.

Though I'm used to haing night posting at NF and not having it here so that's just my confort zone.

[Elohcin]

Oh I think I get the chart now?

I don't. Been staring at it a while now and I have no clue.

[nutella]

Oh I think I get the chart now?

I don't. Been staring at it a while now and I have no clue.

Whichever 2 names move to the left (or appear in the case of the 1-vote column) in each row are the players the person on the left of the row voted for. So it shows how many votes each person had after each person voted.

[Quin]

I GET IT! I GET THE THING!

Thank you Ricochet. For the thing.

I'm off to uni so I'll likely just be observing the thread until I get home but right now I agree that timmer has some explaining to do.

Night 1 was without a night kill and tonight had 2. I'd imagine that there are criteria that have to be met before the Yellow Turbans can make a kill (just like in Psych). As for the Nanman, maybe they went after Dong Zhuo night 1. I highly doubt five (well, four) mafia members were all inactive.

Apologies if this has all been said. I'm a bit wonky this morning and don't have much else to say at the moment.

[Quin]

They might even have both gone after Dong Zhuo, really. It's statistically improbable but if Dong Zhuo is someone who came off as threatening to the baddies it could happen.

[Tangrowth]

I only have a minute but wanted to say a few things:

- The Nanman are dicks. So long, JJJ.

- But welcome, Rico! Glad to see you playing.

- Looks like I was wrong about MM. I stand by what I assessed of the situation, but it appears Jay was onto something with his Wilgy/MM observation. If anyone thinks I'm a teammate for this, I anticipate it, but I think my behavior and post content demonstrate that I was coming from a genuine place of trying to figure it all out. I still don't think MM was lynched on anything that strong, so we sort of got lucky. Glad we did though, and props to everyone who legitimately saw something there.

- I feel better about nutella and Mac after their responses to me. Thanks for those, guys. I don't have any other concerns at this time.

- I haven't conducted any vote analysis or in-depth reading of posts made the last couple of hours in d2, but I still think timmer should be heavily considered for the dueling block today, and I still don't think Dom or Russ is bad, but that's just me.

- I start teaching tomorrow and will be spending the next 24 hours or so at our new apartment, which doesn't have internet, and between that and being busy, expect me to be quieter this phase, unfortunately. I'll contribute when I can, but it won't be again until Thursday likely.

TTYL

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Holy shit now Ricochet is in the game too.

This game is probably reaching a record for number of players I'm afraid of reading as civ in the same game.

Then again, I think I've seen at least one NF game reach it too...

[Ricochet]

I finished my notes after all and will leave them here for discussion, but off to bed soon. Picking it up tomorrow.

D2 voters' sentiments about MM being sent to duel or not + any side remarks on their activity I might have right now

Simon: nothing on MM, in fact nothing except a few daily posts on treating the duel as fun and poking at JJJ; somewhat, I doubt we'll see posts of a different caliber from him, maybe throughout this entire game. However, there is one post (actually, two) that made me wonder if Simon is the "candid" type of player. I'd rank him null based on his actual activity, but gut tells me slight town for the latter detail, for some reason.

Scotty: voted early and approved of MM being lynched, even for WIFOM reasons; later on, while voteless, embraced the idea of a timmer lynch, but didn't mellow from his actual nominations either; I have no pings from him noted down; not inclined to auto-civ-cred him for surviving Duel 1, due to second mafia, indies, recruits, i.e. the whole "thread carefully in your civreads" package - in fact, I think he (or was it DDL?) made the same point at one time, which is right up my alley of skepticism

Jan: fairly unreasoned vote for MM; early timing of his vote doesn't really exonerate him imo: if he's on a team in which both Wilgy and MM are bantzing around, he could easily have said "hell naw". Right now, I'm not inclined to raise the red card for his voting language ("want to see X gone", "want to see how X flips"), nor play the "he would be informed by teammates how things run" given how he tripped into thinking the messenger's read on JJJ was genuine, then 'scumplay'. Strange behaviour nonetheless, I'd definitely like to see more focus and get better vibes.

DF: gained more attention for his Dom vote/reasoning, rather than MM, which can arguably be defined as "following JJJ's case". As a teamie, his votes would be nothing but buss (and an early ticket at that, as well), but it's about as tinfoilable as Jan's above, so hard to judge. Null.

DDL: idem, early vote, "JJJ's case sound goods", won't/can't-read-further-into-MM attitude. The fact that he initiated Russ' wagon is a note-to-self in case depending on Dom's flip, perhaps. [Otherwise, I noted down a couple of pings of him using so much paranoia talk during D1, plus some mention he made D2 about there being a bulletproof serial killer. Did he mean the indy leader? How is he SK until the Turbans are eliminated? Otherwise, wat. Still, insignificant notes right now.]

Quin: also part of the push-MM forward quartet, with a slightly more polished reasoning (MM being defensive towards JJJ, not scumhunting). Later, out-of-the-blue voteless support for a nutella lynch slightly makes my nose twitch. No formed read on him, otherwise.

Mac: declared disapproval for both MM and Dom as current wagons, pushes Russ (MM's ultimatel opponent) forward. Sticks out right now, for obvious reasons, but it wouldn't be Mac if it weren't tricksy to read into it. THM Mac has me thinking he would not buss a teammate without first creating some antagonism/distance; GoC Mac has me thinking he would not only not buss a teammate, but also rub defense in our faces ... (huh, have I never played with civ Mac?). I can't quite get a read on what this here looks like, but it sure correlates with MM's own interest to duel Russ and a halt in MM going forward as the pick-of-the-day. General thoughts are maybe best for a separate entry, but in short: I don't have issues with him using meta or baiting/poking to read, but his pokes so far are just that, pokes, plus he's civread a confirmed mafia so far and an equally sketchy player (Dom), so I'm inclined to utter the words "Mac looks civ" for the moment.

Dom: first in the sequence to sideline completely; no stance on MM and Russ (his counterwagons at that time, or in general), which tells me he was either too focused on No U'ing his opponents, didn't care one bit about the wagon topics or himself being one or couldn't actually do something about himself or a teammate wagon, in case MM is his teammate. As for general read, time is short now and it's maybe best for a separate enty, but in short, my reaction is constantly "kill it with fire". We've just caught bantz duo Wilgy and MM, I don't get why Gimmick Man here should get BTOD.

Ninja: more sidelining, but of the uninformed / no-time-to-ketchup kind

Birdwithteeth: self-voter and sideliner / no-time-to-ketchupkind

timmer: no-time-to-ketchup/apologetic voter, however votes for MM's counter-wagons. His ISO is too opaque to discern how much he would have been willing to risk or not aiding MM or whether it's just a huge omelette that landed on his face, but all in all his votes are no doubt total blergh.

Nerolunar: principled votes on random voters, nothing in regards to any of the main wagons. There's nothing about this to tilt the needle in a particular direction - his reaction to timmer's vote would stand out as better compared to BWT's, but it could have been such an easy "hiss" for civs and mafia alike to make, in light of timmer's move. I have two pings on his D1 "I see a lot of discussion and that's good" remark (though he did admit intentionally staying UTR) and his pick on Glorfindel's use of "friendly" was very weaksauce. Definitely on my shortlist of "want to see more and improved".

Bass: self-vote and MM (first vote to start pushing him forward again in a long sequence); my real-time reaction to his vote post was a ping, because he suddenly switch from being active and testing a few leads to dropping some votes, one of which for the main wagon and the other completely harmless/pointless in the equation of generating a second duel candidate; not to mention that, to add to the disappointment, it happened right after someone (Mac?) noted that Bass can tend to appear active at first, then drop the ball. So yeah, not his finest moment. My feelings on Bass have fluctuated a lot during my spectating: he pinged me at first with his sidelined, unreasoned prefect choices, plus he gave me the vibe of being too active and wordy - then made me feel bad, as he declared his intent to participate more - then gave me a real good vibe with his stance to not make out of lynching inactives a main dish (D1, I think) - then I'd say his D2 feels... lukewarm.

Bullzeye: self-voter and... nothing else. No impact.

JJJ: he dead.

MP: declared dissident to the main wagons, except for the one brewing on timmer. Could find it understandable, given his open, detailed reasoning, even if not on the same page (especially re:Dom). Not convinced of his angle on nutella either, but I didn't get any knitting vibe from that case-making either. If there's one gripe I have so far, it's his use of "CFD" terminology and lobbying. a) I know MP has experienced on foreign/"traditional" forums, but I can't say or don't recall actually having played a game with him embracing a CFD as the option-to-go-with for a lynch phase; b) his call to CFD timmer (and then nutella) is slightly questionable both as timing (poll was still hours ahead of concluding) and format (MP having reasoned / made cases on them being suspicious, so why the shout out for them to be burned CFD-style, which is more of a spontaneous EoD bait method), if not for the tally required (i.e. both timmer and/or nutella needing a lot of votes to change the outcome of the main wagons). I admit I may be reading too much into it, but something about the "hey guys here is my case on X, now how about he CFD da hell out of him" phrasing gave me the wrong vibe, at least as far as using CFD as motive or lobby goes.

Sorsha: self-voted and picked on the absent prefect out of principle; fair and square, but still sidelining from any meaningful attempt to shape the duel. Speaking of meaningful, I must confess I disliked Sorsha's D1 tactic profoundly (probably on the same level as JJJ did, in direct interaction with her): taking it easy on keeping up with the events is one thing, but bantering your way through the process of voting, reasoning, rebuting and such... Instant dislike, at least from someone like me.

Spacedaisy: no-time-to-ketchup mode, voted the self-voters who did more than self-vote... errok

Elohcin: voted MM and Russ, mentioned liking JJJ's case on MM, but no prior mention of Russ; might be interested in a Dom-flips-bad-storyline, in regards to her vote pushing Russ ahead. As for simple vibes, I have none on her so far.

Golden: same situation as timmer, although more reasoned in his action: either eggsplashed by MM's flip or considered there is room to wiggle and actively try to pull MM out of dueling spots; clear dissident of MM as a wagon, needless to say. As for his reads - while I understand the UTR-mode during his Finals - I get too much "I don't agree with ... being bad" and too little "I myself find ... bad". Not quite sure what kind of Golden tactic this is and how to fully read it, but I'd rather have the civ-vibe-giving Golden instead, regardless of the rhythm, pace and intensity it's provided: reads, debating, risk-taking.

Glorfindel - voted Dom and Sorsha, going with ping on former, retroactive on latter; doesn't stand out as someone who addressed / was cognizant of the other wagon topics

Turnip - voted MM and sig; honestly, if there would be a third spot on the WIFOM carousel, Turnip would definitely cross my mind, becuase of how much he openly bantzed with MM, but idk, his suspicion on MM appears early during D2, could easily be a vibe turned into a vote. I'd inquire why he picked sig over timmer, given that he labelled both as "soft defenders of MM". It's too 3am to consider ISO'ing Turnip in full right now.

LoRab - sideliner, no ketchup whatsoever, self-voted + leetic; sort of did a variation of Ninja's "voting two players with same letter" stunt, but that's just a curio. There's absolutely nothing to extract from this, at the very minimum I recall her working on small vibes to reason votes, so I imagined she'd make the same decision regardless of alignment.

DP - does what DP does; still notable that he voted inside the main wagons

Boomslang - voted a suspect he developed his own case on (Jan), plus MM (content with case developed by others on him). At this point, it can only be buss or bust, in case any late voter is an MM teammate. Boomslang's votes and reasoning don't translate super well from D1 (voted MM to TH "because they wanted to duel") to D2, but idk, small vibration on the radar so far.

Nutella - voted MM (long time suss) and timmer (for his votes). Overall, I understand the type of case and skepticism that MP tried to convey towards nutella's activity, but I'm not getting the same vibe at the moment. She is right to say that her waffleness has gotten her in trouble in the past (*raises hand*), compared to which she might feel able to make a more determined or focus effort this time. Again, I know and have felt the sensation of crafted / baked contributive activity in the past, I can't say I'm reading nutella as such at the moment. Needless to say, this is huge distancing from MM, in case she's a teamie, but I'll either reevaluate later if necessary or treat it as genuine.

[Ricochet]

Night 1 was without a night kill and tonight had 2. I'd imagine that there are criteria that have to be met before the Yellow Turbans can make a kill (just like in Psych). As for the Nanman, maybe they went after Dong Zhuo night 1. I highly doubt five (well, four) mafia members were all inactive.

Host design says that both mafia teams kill every Night (plus, I remember the Host alluding prior to the start of the game that it will run far smoother and quicker, because of the double nightkills). What makes you think there are limiters, after all?

Since Wilgy and MM were Nanman, I think the odds that Nanmans derped on sending the kill Night 1 are close to 0%. I even recall (though not sure if I remember this correctly) MM suggesting at least one night kill failed - which now reads as what probably that team experienced.

This game is probably reaching a record for number of players I'm afraid of reading as civ in the same game.

My only read game-based paranoia is the recruiter, tbh. Any given Day, it's likely for one civ read to turn into a indy and coast away with the cred.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I was going to say I suspected Nutella after reading MP's D2 suspicion on her (he basically said the same thing I said about her on D1, but on a larger scale). But then I kind of liked her defense. I feel like admitting to be clueless is better than trying to make it look like they are are sure of what they say, which some players (such as myself) tend to do as scum.

Russ still looks bad as hell and I have little reason not to vote for him again.

I and humbled by the power of vote analysis ater seeing Jay take MM down with it and I'm willing to employ it again after seeing Rico's amazing list. So Timmer is a likely second vote.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Also I feel like I want to vote for TH, but cant find any rational reason for it. Something about him feels wrong though.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

SK is serial killer. The fact it needs to fulfill requirements to start killing doesn't change what the role is.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I feel like Sorsha looks so bad it hurt but that's a problem. It seems more like she is not even trying (due to not being able to catch up and such) than she is trying to manipulate people into thinking she's good. Looks more like a neutral read to me.

[Golden]

Golden: same situation as timmer, although more reasoned in his action: either eggsplashed by MM's flip or considered there is room to wiggle and actively try to pull MM out of dueling spots; clear dissident of MM as a wagon, needless to say. As for his reads - while I understand the UTR-mode during his Finals - I get too much "I don't agree with ... being bad" and too little "I myself find ... bad". Not quite sure what kind of Golden tactic this is and how to fully read it, but I'd rather have the civ-vibe-giving Golden instead, regardless of the rhythm, pace and intensity it's provided: reads, debating, risk-taking.

I will assume that will come when I start reading the thread, even if its low intensity. I cannot overstate how little of this game I have read - it would amount to 3 or 4 pages worth tops. With Dom in particular, I would say I have a read because his posts have been quite frequent in the bits and pieces I read. The same goes for JJ (I guess went in his case) and DDL (also find townie). Contrast this to someone like MP, whose content always seems to be at different times to me so I've barely read any.

Take your post, for example - literally the only bit I have read is the bit about me. I have no read on you.

I'm probably going to take... I would say, at least this phase... off from reading any mafia, and then I'll start trying my best to give genuine reads from then. I wouldn't want to pretend I've been doing anything short of phoning it in and picking up on little bits and pieces that have caught my attention within the immediate vicinity of where I check in.

[LoRab]

Still catching up. Literally fell asleep last night trying to catch up. It's a beyond busy time of year at work, so I don't even have any time during the day to read. Blurgh.

And I have to say, the no posting at night is throwing me off. I mean, nice that there's less to catch up on, but I'm so not used to it in terms of the flow of reading. I think this is maybe the second or third game ever that I've played with no night posting. Not my comfort zone. Still adjusting.

I don't really have anything to add, because I'm still kind of lost. But waanted to pop in and say that I haven't forgotten y'all.

[Dom]

Finnicky Rico-- now that you've started playing, why don't you make a real opinion and not just jump on the hater wagon ?? Sad !

I don't deserve the benefit of teh doubt. I deserve a real argument to be made against me, and none has been made. I am the best there ever was and Dfaraday is the worst . okay, folks? The way he jumped on me here-- hey, maybe I was looking for it, I don't know??

[Marmot]

Remember that one time I died and I kept posting on-topic content because I didn't know I was dead?

Well, that's not happening this game.

[MacDougall]

Wilgy's wifom wankery ftl.

[MacDougall]

The King of Fuck Mountain is dead! Long live the King.

Oh, a wild Ricochet appeared. And he's doing his Rico thing. Werd.

SVS being killed reeks of lameness.

[Dom]

I concur. SVS was one of the good ones.