The Syndicate

Marluxion wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 4:38 am page 13 especially gives me extreme wolves-trying-to-look-towny vibes
the way the entire poe turned on each other rather than outward makes me feel like our PoE is either mostly correct or completely wrong

Elaborate?

it's mostly the vibes i get from hally and alison on that page
they control like 60% of the page's posts and they dont really interact at all

also the second bit
dya is on alison
galvial is on dya
tan and arete crossvoting
hally pushing seth

it justs feels like most of the poe is attacking the poe, whereas i'd expect the stronger villagers in the poe to have a significantly different perspective but that doesn't seem to be the case
whether it's w/w or wolves attacking the lhf in the poe i'm not sure yet

Vulgard wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 4:38 am Tangrowth's posts keep flying past me and it's increasingly concerning to me.

yeah, feeling the same thing

theres perhaps engagement on the individual level but no engagement on the game as a whole if you get me

any thoughts on sunbae, outed wolf?

Tangrowth's most memorable post was the readlist with pretty colors. I remember agreeing with the reads there, particularly with the village reads.

Arete pushed and prodded at Tangrowth earlier and I didn't think much of it back then. @ Arete thoughts on their readlist?

KZA wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:30 pm

Vulgard wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:38 am c4, dya and KZA are in the "no impressions made" club and I would like them to play the game. I do not townread c4 for a carefully voiced scumread (?) on SPF. That's in any average wolf's wolfrange and I think SPF is too quick to clear them regardless of alignment.

dya and KZA just haven't talked about the game much yet. Dya got offended based on a single accusation if I read that correctly, and KZA 5-posted and dipped.

Vulgard wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:12 am I could say similar things about KZA, for that matter. Except KZA's ISO is even worse. Not only does it have fewer posts, but its only attempt at engagement is a thin townread on SPF. Also, bows out of reading Gavial instead of even trying. Terrible look so far. The point about "looking out of touch with the thread" also applies here. Dizzy just above me is open about the fact they won't engage with the game (not sure how to read that at the moment). KZA here is low-efforting and being quiet about it.

Stupid read, but KZA and Dizzy aren't W/W based on that. I doubt they would both do this as wolves, and in such a different manner, too. If they wanted to meme and become the slankwolf collective, they'd either both do it like Dizzy or both like KZA. I understand if people consider this read stupid, though.

sorry to bring up old stuff, I've been working a lot and not really posting

wanna walk me through this 0-100? I don't really see how you made this progression when I had 0 posts between those 2

Sure. At first I didn't read your ISO, all I remembered was that you 5-posted and I decided to sort you later. Then I came back to your ISO and it looked even worse than I'd remembered. You may notice that I originally gave a less nuanced take because I wasn't as familiar with your ISO. The next time I alluded to your posts, I provided examples of what you've been doing. Evidence that I did indeed read the ISO, gained new insight and my read isn't a lie.

But maybe your take is different? What is your read on me?

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:30 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:56 pm I don't know how to put this gently so I am just going to ask if you are all aware that Gavial is Seththeking and that being anti-town is NAI for him.

^^i actually do take issue with this post from alison, because i feel like she was trying to generalize all of the suspicion against gavial as being related to him being "anti-town", when it was very clear that the majority of suspicion toward him had nothing to do w/him being anti-town or pro-town. it felt like a post that was intended to steer the thread consensus in a specific direction, which isn't implausible for alison to do as a villager, but the generalization grinded my gears a bit

SPF is stealing my thoughts.

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:33 pm I think alison is wolfier than gavial

I think you should explain your reads right away if you want people to care about them more. Like you complained about in a prior post.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:35 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:33 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:30 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:56 pm I don't know how to put this gently so I am just going to ask if you are all aware that Gavial is Seththeking and that being anti-town is NAI for him.

^^i actually do take issue with this post from alison, because i feel like she was trying to generalize all of the suspicion against gavial as being related to him being "anti-town", when it was very clear that the majority of suspicion toward him had nothing to do w/him being anti-town or pro-town. it felt like a post that was intended to steer the thread consensus in a specific direction, which isn't implausible for alison to do as a villager, but the generalization grinded my gears a bit

It was not clear to me. I was just putting out what I know about Seth's meta because I saw the word anti-town bounced around a couple of times. I don't think it's fair to me to characterize me as trying to say that all the suspicion against Gavial was because he was anti-town.

Like what exactly is the idea here? I say "guys Gavial is always anti-town it's NAI for him", you guys look at your legitimate grievances with actual wolfy play by Seth and think "oh well Alison says anti-town play is NAI for Gavial so I guess I can't scumread him now"?

i viewed that post as you flexing your experience/knowledge of gavial's meta, and using that as a way to steer some of the pressure off of him. if you present yourself as The Expert on a specific player and you shoot down the idea that traditionally wolfy play is NAI for them, then you can reasonably influence people and make them feel more unsure of themselves. this is an approach that you've taken as a wolf before, i am sure?

I'm starting to townread SPF. I'm reading a great string of posts from her re: Alison @ Gavial.

Tangrowth wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:42 pm [VOTE: arete] aubergine

I forgot to do this shoot, okay be back later, you all are awesome and I am having so much fun playing this game!!

Is this OMGUS or do you wolfread Arete? Or another reason?

Hard to pin down Zack, ask me tomorrow [if we are alive ofc]

Arete wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:15 pm

Hally wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:06 pm arete, what’s your read on gavial?

based on what I've seen in the posts I've read (which, again, is not all the posts that exist) I think he's probably a wolf, he's not playing like town!Seth like at all, from what I've seen he's not even making an attempt at pushing any of his scumreads? which is one of the big things I expect from town!Seth

Alison had a post where she said that he plays to his wolf meta half the time as town which I don't think is true, I have actually seen it happen by which I mean 'I replaced in for him in a game where he was the uncontested top wagon for doing that' but I think it's more like ten percent of his town games than half of them? which is a number I completely made up but is probably the right ballpark

also I might be misremembering the details but someone had a post that was like 'why even bother to vote him out if he's a wolf, wolves are just going to bus him for towncred which doesn't help us' (this is a really misrepresentative paraphrase) and I think that's also dumb, wolves dying is always good and the fewer wolves there are the stronger the tracker is (and the fewer wolves need to die to turn the jailkeeper into a cop) (also he could be a wolf PR)

like if we're worried that wolves will just bus him we can just not give people towncred for being on his wagon if he flips scum? duh?


I'm not voting him yet because in the offchance he's not I don't want him to randomly tunnel me for Seth reasons when he gets back, getting tunnelled by Seth for sucky reasons is Not Fun, if he's still being wolfy by EoD then I can just vote him then and my vote will do exactly as much to kill him as it would if I voted now

The last part of this post looks like a v!Arete perspective.

Arete wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:48 am ...still catching up but at some point within the past ?few minutes? Gavial seems to have silently voted me on the poll, and not in the thread, despite literally never mentioning me at any point previously

which is baffling and kind of makes me think that he's badly attempting to spew me as his partner? or something?

This entire post looks like a v!Arete perspective, too. We both have experience with Gavial and wolf!Arete wouldn't handle Gavial like this.

I still think Gavial's a wolf after reading his posts 4 pages ago. They lack the spark of confidence his towngame displays. He sounds too deflated.

Lots of people are making Gavial preflips, though. Let's not. I'm a competent Gavial reader and I think he's mafia but preflips are always bad unless there's a redcheck. It's THEORETICALLY possible he's playing in his wolfmeta as town for whatever reason. ...Yeah, no. But still.

Amy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:26 am

Gavial wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:18 am IDK Marmot’s Town I guess

this post killed me instantly

Amy is always town.

Arete wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:52 am I have a hot take that Seth probably doesn't randomly make the spectator reads and insist that it's a super funny joke as wolf

he takes the game ... seriously? ... as wolf, which to be clear is not the same thing as 'being good at it' or 'not outing his entire team with spew' or 'not pinging the lost wolf with a poem that spells out WE R IN TOWNCORE with the first letter of every line as an elaborate form of signalling, without consulting his teammates' but he has a conception of himself as a good scum player (specifically thinking of an FoL wolfgame, Wild West, where he was super insistent on trying to bus Moleland, his partner, on the grounds that he was a better wolf than Moleland (which is not true)) and I don't think his self-conception of himself as a good scum player is consistent with making that sort of joke

and if it were just actual lolcatting I don't think he would deny that he's lolcatting

I townread the thought process but I disagree with the conclusion. Gavial's still seemed tonally deflated to me.

Arete wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 2:10 am I'm happy to give him until the end of day to towntell, in my experience when he's V he can usually be obviously in his town range by the end of the day

That part's fair.

Read Arete's posts on page 18 and I'm confident calling them town. Don't misyeet them.

--

I get the sense of "going through the motions" from Visor's posts and I don't like it. I read them in the context of the thread, not in isolation, but I haven't seen him stick out his neck for anything. Neither have I seen him write anything that made me nod my head and go "mhm, yes, this is villagery."

--

Hally's play this game is... off. It's so 'off' and unlike anything I've seen from them before that it's making me lose confidence they're wolf. At the very least I don't want to go there today. Maybe I'm getting WIFOMed but honestly I've never seen Hally play like this. Not as town, not as wolf, not as anything. And I generally townread weird playstyle shifts.

Marluxion wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 3:24 am

Hally wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:34 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 2:28 pm @Hally Make a read on me, do it for science!

Gavial wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 2:30 pm What’s your cases on me?
@Hally
@staypositivefriend

you seem like a wolf

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 2:32 pm Wait lol, Hally and SPF are voting what used to be a 4 post Gavial. LOL

@Hally @staypositivefriend I'm going to crush your dreams if any or both of you are mafia and I get to ever read this game. Terrible votes!

i’m pretty happy with my vote, actually

braindead take:

this kinda feels like a bus

Agree, it's pretty surface-level. And I don't like that.

I've finally caught up. Thinking I'm going dya but I'd like to hear thoughts about Visor first.

Gavial being there is kinda yikes, though. I don't see where the vote's coming from if he's town.

Still thinking Gavial needs to die either way but I'm okay with a dya wagon independently from my read on Gavial. There's enough posts from them that I disliked on a micro level and their macro has been lacking, too.

Not sure what to think about the handling of Alison but yeah. I should be here at least once again to swap my vote if I need to.

Actually, no. I've changed my mind. Gavial needs to die first in every world. I still think he's a wolf and I think he's being given a free turnaround despite his deflated tone.

Dya can be a wolf, and I see it, but I'm confident Gavial's a hit a bit more than I'm confident on dya being one.

Should be back before EoD. Hopefully.

I also don't have confidence he's going to die if I don't push him. Last time I cased wolf!Gavial and didn't push him hard enough (offsite). We killed a villager, Gavial turned out to be a wolf PR and could use his actions freely until he kicked the bucket d2. If Gavial's a wolf PR (unlikely, but possible) I don't want that to happen. I've considered Arete's points on Gavial possibly being town but I still think his tone is squarely wolf!Gavial and his posting so far isn't what I expect from town!Gavial. I've actually played with a town!Gavial who was holding back and it didn't look like this, so giving him a pass on that principle is also wrong.

i won't lie, part of why my vote's where it is and why i'm not trying super hard to envision a v!gav worldview is like

if i'm wrong on gav, oops

but if i'm wrong on, for example, dya, that's WAY worse, because dya is a really really strong villager (ESPECIALLY from d2 on)

and that feeling sort of extends to p much every other alternative candidate i'd be considering atm

marl feels like someone who's gonna get flipped d4 or 5 when all the actively wolfy people are gone and we get around to killing off all the "well they aren't out of their wolfrange!!!" people

what does this mean for his alignment? who fucking knows

arete's posts on page 18 dont really do it for me vulgard
then again i was just pocketed by wolf arete so maybe i'm paranoid and you're right?
meh

Amy wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 6:47 am marl feels like someone who's gonna get flipped d4 or 5 when all the actively wolfy people are gone and we get around to killing off all the "well they aren't out of their wolfrange!!!" people

what does this mean for his alignment? who fucking knows

i wont be dying during the day this game
if i end up dying it'll be at night when the scumteam decide i'm too much of a headache and a wildcard to keep around
this, i swear

sunbae wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 2:57 am I feel like Alisons frustrations with me are relevant to her alignment. Like, being frustrated about me having a specific read and walking it back after others disagree feels like a villagery thing to me? I'm afraid of this being a thing where I have zero experience with someone, find general things towny, but others with experience just find her wolfy and I'm wrong thing. But like, I didn't mind her posting here either even though others went at her for it.

You had a chain of logic for me being villagery no? What about other people's reads on me was convincing enough for you to drop that?

Also what's up with your read on Marl?

Vulgard wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 5:50 am I also don't have confidence he's going to die if I don't push him. Last time I cased wolf!Gavial and didn't push him hard enough (offsite). We killed a villager, Gavial turned out to be a wolf PR and could use his actions freely until he kicked the bucket d2. If Gavial's a wolf PR (unlikely, but possible) I don't want that to happen. I've considered Arete's points on Gavial possibly being town but I still think his tone is squarely wolf!Gavial and his posting so far isn't what I expect from town!Gavial. I've actually played with a town!Gavial who was holding back and it didn't look like this, so giving him a pass on that principle is also wrong.

How good are you at reading Gavial historically?

Never been wrong about his alignment. Can prove by linking past games.

I am writing this post on my phone while standing in line to get my COVID vaccine. I think I'm addicted.

Does anyone here have any experience with Visor? I have never seen him play.

Marluxion wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 6:50 am arete's posts on page 18 dont really do it for me vulgard
then again i was just pocketed by wolf arete so maybe i'm paranoid and you're right?
meh

I think the POV and takes are distinctly V!Arete. W!Arete can be creative but I think these specific takes are outside of their wolfrange of creativity.

Maybe I shouldn't have LOCKED it, but I am confident enough in this read that I probably won't think about it more for at least a day phase or two, if not longer.

Wait vulgard, how did you only quote the posts where I didn't explain and none of the posts where I did?

I think both alison and gav are independently wolfy. I think if alison is a wolf, gav is probably villa because of the whiteknighting that she's kind of sort of doing

I'm not really sure why that's hard to understand?

and nutella why would my "wolf agenda" ever be pushing alison when I know she's a hard elim to make happen?

Ok lol. Gavial probably scum.

Now that he has posted more, I don't care much if we chop him or not.

Vulgard wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 7:49 am Does anyone here have any experience with Visor? I have never seen him play.

yeah but i haven't seen him wolf in a long time (the mash recently doesn't count)

I'm not sure I'd recognize it when I see it but I can usually get to a solid v read if he's v just with the way he says things? the way he pushes on people. I'm not there yet on him

Someone said something to the effect of "If Hally busses, I would expect them to be more flashy in the bussing", to which I completely disagree. Hally is way smarter than to make a bus super obvious. They would be much more likely to purposefully make the bus have a flavour of meh and whatever to make it look more towny. If anything, I think the way Hally is treating Gavial is a smidge heavy handed for a bus. First Gavial has to flip anyway though.

I honestly agreed with Hally's mention of suspecting Dya for her answers to me. I got some less than stellar feels from that myself. Though I haven't read many of her posts.

Almost everyone I know and that I've looked into has been non-town reads for me, which is disappointing. Maybe it's just my mood lol. I probably don't have a town read. Maybe Tangy and Amy, but I've also barely read anything of the game so.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 8:28 am Someone said something to the effect of "If Hally busses, I would expect them to be more flashy in the bussing", to which I completely disagree. Hally is way smarter than to make a bus super obvious. They would be much more likely to purposefully make the bus have a flavour of meh and whatever to make it look more towny. If anything, I think the way Hally is treating Gavial is a smidge heavy handed for a bus. First Gavial has to flip anyway though.

I honestly agreed with Hally's mention of suspecting Dya for their answers to me. I got some less than stellar feels from that myself. Though I haven't read many of their posts.

Almost everyone I know and that I've looked into has been non-town reads for me, which is disappointing. Maybe it's just my mood lol. I probably don't have a town read. Maybe Tangy and Amy, but I've also barely read anything of the game so.

*corrected

And apologies.

Marluxion wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 4:45 am it's mostly the vibes i get from hally and alison on that page
they control like 60% of the page's posts and they dont really interact at all

also the second bit
dya is on alison
galvial is on dya
tan and arete crossvoting
hally pushing seth

it justs feels like most of the poe is attacking the poe, whereas i'd expect the stronger villagers in the poe to have a significantly different perspective but that doesn't seem to be the case
whether it's w/w or wolves attacking the lhf in the poe i'm not sure yet

What's your definition of the PoE? As in, who belongs there from your POV? I don't recall you ever forming one.

dyachei wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 8:23 am Wait vulgard, how did you only quote the posts where I didn't explain and none of the posts where I did?

I think both alison and gav are independently wolfy. I think if alison is a wolf, gav is probably villa because of the whiteknighting that she's kind of sort of doing

I'm not really sure why that's hard to understand?

and nutella why would my "wolf agenda" ever be pushing alison when I know she's a hard elim to make happen?

Pretty sure I specified "immediately."

Vulgard wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 7:49 am Does anyone here have any experience with Visor? I have never seen him play.

just imagine the best, smartest, most wonderful player in the world

now imagine the guy who vigs that guy n1

thats me

Vulgard wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 8:42 am

Marluxion wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 4:45 am it's mostly the vibes i get from hally and alison on that page
they control like 60% of the page's posts and they dont really interact at all

also the second bit
dya is on alison
galvial is on dya
tan and arete crossvoting
hally pushing seth

it justs feels like most of the poe is attacking the poe, whereas i'd expect the stronger villagers in the poe to have a significantly different perspective but that doesn't seem to be the case
whether it's w/w or wolves attacking the lhf in the poe i'm not sure yet

What's your definition of the PoE? As in, who belongs there from your POV? I don't recall you ever forming one.

pretty much every player in that list plus visor and the swagged out lissa

it's really getting old that people think they should dictate how I play the game. I play on my own terms with my own style. I guess if you don't like it, that's tough for you

those two are outer poe right now though

i think most ppl in this list (even marluxion somewhat) have played with me

vulgard, seth, (alison kinda doesnt count), c4, kza, perhaps tangrowth

i guess thats more than i thought

but still a decent amount otherwise

Marluxion wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 8:51 am those two are outer poe right now though

feel pretty strongly that tangy shouldnt be in the poe

calling me going through the motions is interesting, its a charge id level against people who are not me this game lol

(hell i think bronana would be a more accurate target for that than me)

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 8:28 am Someone said something to the effect of "If Hally busses, I would expect them to be more flashy in the bussing", to which I completely disagree. Hally is way smarter than to make a bus super obvious. They would be much more likely to purposefully make the bus have a flavour of meh and whatever to make it look more towny. If anything, I think the way Hally is treating Gavial is a smidge heavy handed for a bus. First Gavial has to flip anyway though.

I honestly agreed with Hally's mention of suspecting Dya for her answers to me. I got some less than stellar feels from that myself. Though I haven't read many of her posts.

Almost everyone I know and that I've looked into has been non-town reads for me, which is disappointing. Maybe it's just my mood lol. I probably don't have a town read. Maybe Tangy and Amy, but I've also barely read anything of the game so.

ya except i played with hally recently and they went turbo bus mode

now obv there are layers and differences to each scenario, but given i have literal evidence saying hally can power bus....

dyachei wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 8:53 am

Marluxion wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 8:51 am those two are outer poe right now though

feel pretty strongly that tangy shouldnt be in the poe

maybe
it's my first game with them so the read is more likely to change than most others

wheres your head at dya,

some sort of tier/reads list would be nice?

outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 8:55 amya except i played with hally recently and they went turbo bus mode

now obv there are layers and differences to each scenario, but given i have literal evidence saying hally can power bus....

Sure they can. But I've talked mafia theory a lot with Hally. I think they would agree that in a field of strong players, you don't want to obv bus. You rather say "I guess I'll vote here" and make it look less obvious.

I don't love Hally's play or vote on Gavial though.
Nobody seems to be loving Hally's play here lol.

Lifting it to a meta perspective - Sometimes, or even a lot of the time, wolves just do shit and don't have the strongest grand plan for it or tons of strategical background for the play. If Gavial is mafia, Hally could be a teammate, and the vote certainly doesn't clear them at all.

outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 8:58 am wheres your head at dya,

some sort of tier/reads list would be nice?

my head is at annoyed that I can't play a game with friends without being told that my way of playing is shitty, anti-town, or wolfy

Villa
Tangy

Villa Lean
Amy
c4

Don't know where to place
nutella
visor

W lean
Gavial
alison

W

i mean, half this game was in that game where it happened lol.

i dont disagree with you, how you bus someone can be very important

and i am certainly not clearing hally at all, just noting things as they occur

I guess place hally with you and nutella

i get being annoyed at shitty or anti town (though i dont know who said either)

but wolfy is sorta the game :P

what do you think about sunbae and spf?

outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 9:01 am i get being annoyed at shitty or anti town (though i dont know who said either)

but wolfy is sorta the game :P

not when I get it for the same shit every d1

Uh. I vaguely suspect Dya for one post that Hally pointed out.
I don't know who's telling them their play is anti-town or shitty. Haven't read the game. I'm counting on that not being directed at me at all.

dyachei wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 9:00 am

outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 8:58 am wheres your head at dya,

some sort of tier/reads list would be nice?

my head is at annoyed that I can't play a game with friends without being told that my way of playing is shitty, anti-town, or wolfy

Villa
Tangy

Villa Lean
Amy
c4

Don't know where to place
nutella
visor

W lean
Gavial
alison

W

ngl i half expected w!you to wolfread me like you do in mashes when you're a wolf
no read on me at all kinda surprises me

who are your most likely villagers and wolves, dyslexicon

outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 9:07 am who are your most likely villagers and wolves, dyslexicon

Haven't read posts from most of the people in the game.

I looked at Gavial's iso since he had posted more. I have played one game with him as town, and one as fellow wolf (though he had an alt and did a weird character.) This looks like neither of those games. But in the one wolf game he played a character and posted in all caps. I think his iso is meaningfully different from the one where he was town. He has no sure reads here and he had lots of opinions in his town game. If I were to excuse, maybe he just doesn't care about this game, haven't read or somehow doesn't care unless he's PT (cause he was PT in the town game).

Many words, but Gavial is likely scum.

I have been unimpressed but what I've seen from Alison. So I guess I'm sharing Dya's reads. I see Hally's point one point on Dya (adding a caveat for me), but it's not a strong suspicion in Dya's direction.

If Gavial is mafia, I will inspect everyone on his wagon.

Nut, Tangy, Amy probably ok. Super flimsy reasons/only vibes from lack of reading.

Sheeping consensus town reads on others if they exist.