The Syndicate

When the fiddler gets to the roof, does the game end? Who is the fiddler?

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:53 am

Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:45 am When the fiddler gets to the roof, does the game end? Who is the fiddler?

the fiddler is a metaphor for survival in uncertain times times

the play is not even about violinists, or roof construction. that was a disappointment for me in highschool since those were two major interests for me

Those uncertain times times are harder than good times times. How does that metaphor work - is it because being a fiddler isn't stable employment?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:31 am Kyle is with the Russian Police. Discuss.

He is? What is there to discuss then, let's string him up!

Civvie BTSC is the most powerful thing... or at least Civvie-Civvie knowledge. Confirming Civs is one of the best things we can do to win the game.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:01 pm...second of all you've never even seen me play as mafia before, the only player in recent history who has is dunya and even then it was just one game under unique circumstances, not enough to build correlation from

This section is sketchy, Kyle, it reads like it's written by someone with a mafia alignment. "you've never even seen me play as mafia before" implies you're mafia now, and the statement that there's "not enough to build correlation from" implies that there could be enough at some point, but if you're Civ, then the idea would be that "correlation is impossible because I'm not bad."

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:01 pm

Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:55 pm This section is sketchy, Kyle, it reads like it's written by someone with a mafia alignment. "you've never even seen me play as mafia before" implies you're mafia now, and the statement that there's "not enough to build correlation from" implies that there could be enough at some point, but if you're Civ, then the idea would be that "correlation is impossible because I'm not bad."

This section is sketchy, Long Con. You've shoved words into Kylemii's face and said "These are the civilian words. You didn't say the civilian words." as if there aren't multiple possible examples of a civilian response to my poop.

That's a dumbed-down version of what I was saying. I gave an example of a Civilian perspective to make my point more clear. I didn't tell him what he had to say, I told him what what he said felt like to me.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:03 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:01 pm

Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:55 pm This section is sketchy, Kyle, it reads like it's written by someone with a mafia alignment. "you've never even seen me play as mafia before" implies you're mafia now, and the statement that there's "not enough to build correlation from" implies that there could be enough at some point, but if you're Civ, then the idea would be that "correlation is impossible because I'm not bad."

This section is sketchy, Long Con. You've shoved words into Kylemii's face and said "These are the civilian words. You didn't say the civilian words." as if there aren't multiple possible examples of a civilian response to my poop.

So it was poop? And you think LC ate it?

I ate it, but I puked it back up.

I want to be clear that I didn't eat any poop. I had nothing to do with JJJ's supposed tell in my post.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:16 pmLC picks out the specific part of my response that supports his point despite the fact that the part he cropped out makes his point of agreement less meaningful.

Looking back, that is true. It was unintentional - I like to cut down quotes to the part I'm responding to for easier reading, and I lost that relevant part and reacted to just my slice. Kyle said that it's 100% false before the part I analyzed.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:47 pm Y'all please tell me about Epignosis's last post.

He rightly asserts that I shouldn't be assumed good because I make stuff happen. He then parlays that into "hang Jay and Sloonei", as though "doesn't make him good" is equivalent to "makes them bad".

No thanks. I won't be needing any of that today.

It's not something I'm taking very seriously. Is Epi really going to pursue your lynches?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:30 pm Jay and I have been scum partners once. It was in Street Fighter. He bussed me on Day 1 and then subbed out.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:59 pm I just made a post of only adverbs in response to Epi.

Badass.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:57 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:48 pm Do you scum read me?

I don't quite scum read you but I don't town read you yet either.

You haven't done the things I expect town Sloonei to do yet which is a cause for concern.

I would like to eventually know what those things are, because it would help me to believe this statement is real.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:14 am So far, Kyle is very likely town. The rest is whatever. Except everyone are super cute and adorable. <3

Hey Diz. Kyle's clear for me at this point as well. I really enjoyed his post about his expectations for Sloonei.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:44 am Epignosis is my final vote. The guy said it’s same shit different day, meaning he is well aware that my play in this game is ordinary for a civilian JJJ. His case is contngent upon that.

Just think that through, people.

Epignosis has shown more than once, his ability to use bizarro Epi-Logic for his cases early on. I know this intimately. You've been there before, why is this making you OMGUS so hard?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:31 amThis is the biggest load of shit I've ever seen Epignosis dump into a Mafia thread.

It's really, really, really, really not.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:48 pm I swear that "omgus" is one of the silliest notions in Mafia, and we'd all be better off if it just disappeared. I mean seriously, whenever I am revealed to be town, please take that to heart folks.

No u is stupid.

Omgus is stupid.

No more.

That might be my campaign for 2018 alongside Sloonei's fight against ketchup.

Anyway, to answer your question LC, I don't care what is perceived to be "normal" for Epignosis. This kind of "that's Epi being Epi" shit is what he has thrived on as a bad guy since I joined this website and probably long before. He can do or say basically anything and people refuse to actually dig into it with any thoroughness -- it's infuriating. If I see something that I hate at face value, then that is going to define my read. You might understand where I stand better than most here because you have gotten into plenty of Day 1 combat with Epignosis. In the scenarios where you both ended up being town, can you describe in general terms the behavior you have felt is so suspicious that you ended up wrong about? Don't spend a lot of time on this since it's external meta; I'm just asking for a tip.

Epi says things that I really believe we both know to not be true, but he acts like it's the opposite. Recently, he used some backwards logic to try to convince everyone that I had slipped, and no amount of correct, linear breakdown of what was wrong with his backwards logic would get him to bat an eyelash about it. That's the Civ Epi I know, I can't remember what bad Epi is like in the early game. Does he plant instigation seeds? Can't recall.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:39 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:33 pm the thread is bound to accelerate at some point even without Jay's interference so why wouldn't it be beneficial for jay to be the one to accelerate it? It's not about town credit or whatever it's about pragmatic choices and wearing the mask. It's about avoiding the inevitable "thread is quiet and jay hasn't thrown shit today, isn't that weird? maybe he's not as interested in finding mafia as usual for some reason"

This is where your perception of this game and my perception so differ.

Would the game have "accelerated" without my interference? Technically, yes, it'd have moved a bit faster than the nothing of the first 12 hours of Day 0. Would it have blown the hell up without my interference?

Nope.

Fuck nope.

Call me arrogant. Tell me I'm taking too much credit. Don't give a damn. It's what I believe and it's why I blew it up.

There are two games going with a lot of player overlap. This one was set to be a snail without some help. I helped.

There's obviously plenty of evidence to the contrary, Jim. It feels ridiculous to have to say it, but I can go back a decade to see hundreds of games where someone did something on Day 1 that 'started it up' in that way. Most of them didn't contain you. At least half the people in this game have been responsible for getting things going with some daring push or pushy dare.

So, is this really your honest opinion?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:28 pmYes. The Epi/LC dynamic is in play here, only Epi changed his target to Jay to shake things up.

I know, right - the guy finally leaves me alone, what a relief!

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:04 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:32 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:28 pm Yes. The Epi/LC dynamic is in play here, only Epi changed his target to Jay to shake things up.

Could be. If so, it sheds a lot of new light on why that always sets LC off so much.

But it's LC that drives me bananas.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:06 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:05 pm 2nd question, why 12 hours?

Because that's a lot of hours.

...and that's terrible.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:30 pm

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:23 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:06 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:05 pm 2nd question, why 12 hours?

Because that's a lot of hours.

...and that's terrible.

What is?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:30 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:24 pm At the same time, I was thinking about how 3J said something obviously absurd (at least it was obvious to me), and that if the plan was to figure out who is bad by generating content from saying something so obviously absurd (3J at least took credit for generating content), how genuine was 3J being? The fake tell maneuver was too over-the-top for me to believe that an honest 3J expected to catch mafia with it, and because of that, it looked too much like an act.

Folks need to understand that "catching mafia" isn't the only thing to when a game begins. Some mild suspicions can emerge from a pile of bullshit (which my "tell" on Kyle absolutely was), but civilian reads can come of that too. Any game-relevant content can be judged for alignment. That mini rainbow I spat out was an immediate reception of how the maneuver was handled by people in the thread. Early in a game it's the latter I care about most. Making a confident mafia read on Day 1 is very difficult, but confident civilian reads come more easily. I value that a lot, and it can't happen if the content in the thread doesn't reflect people playing the game.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:26 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:23 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:21 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:19 pm
The most pressing question emerging from this then would be: Epignosis, why won't you be voting for me today?

Because you're a shitty Day 1 lynch.

Why?

Now you're just fishing for compliments.

Because if you are good, then that's an active, vocal, passionate mafia-hunter gone, one who didn't even get a real chance to catch anybody.

And if you are bad, then that's an active, vocal, passionate mafia member who will be interacting thoroughly with his teammates.

Also, it's irksome to kill the most prolific player. Unless their post count is high due to frantic defense.

Hey, just got off work, and I'm 8 pages behind. I'll try to hang out here in the present a little while I catch up.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:26 pm I apologize for having emotions earlier, I will avoid that in the future.

Cool, I'm not there yet. Is it going to be awesome?

Also, at the point I'm at, Mac and nutella are sparring about the copied rainbow list. So far, I have felt like it makes them both look more bad, so I guess it's worth a reread tomorrow.

Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:27 pm

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:24 pm Hey, just got off work, and I'm 8 pages behind. I'll try to hang out here in the present a little while I catch up.

Things will be more interesting if you vote for me.

OK, I'll vote for Marmot, and we'll see if it's still there in an hour and a half.

Spacedaisy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:46 am

Spacedaisy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:41 pm

speedchuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:24 pm If I may make an observation, regarding the setup:

Tevye can get BTSC with his daughters. In doing so, he can confirm them town to himself. So that's neat.

However, if he doesn't search for them, the town gains a cop in the match-maker. Match-maker can search for BTSC, which would (if Tevye doesn't submit actions) only be held by the mafia.

We trade off a BTSC-finder and a town searcher/btsc/lover thing for a cop. Does anyone think this is a good idea?

This is interesting. I need to think on this because traditionally I've always viewed civs with BTSC as one of the strongest things the civs can have...

Spacedaisy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:19 pm Ok, holy shit ya'll! I left for work and thought maybe I could slowly catch up on the last three pages. Now there are ten more. There is no way I can catch up with this before the day ends so I'm probably going to random vote between the people earning votes.

Spacedaisy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:36 pm Let me rephrase this, I am not casting a random vote. That was poorly chosen wording. I am going to cast my vote on someone who already, butnot randomly. I really would like to vote the same way as Kyle for two reasons. As far as I was caught up (only page 9) I felt like Sloonei's behavior around Kyle/Jay in the first few pages was the most shady. In particular the long post where he did one word characterizations of Kyles posts. I can expand on this more after work but I just don't have the time now. I also trust Kyle more than any other after the half the thread I've read, so the fact his vote is there too makes me feel that much more confident in my vote. I only wish more people would consider a vote there.

no linki was given

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:30 pm So is it genuinely in Epignosis's MO as Mafia to go after Jimmy on day 1 and put himself at risk like this?

He is now leading the votes. I don't like it. It looks like a potential mislynch to me. I am getting nam flashbacks to MK.

This post is ugly to me. In a Mac is bad and knows Epi is good, kind of way.

Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:35 pm

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:34 pm no linki was given

Sometimes the linki giveth. Sometimes it taketh.

You outclassed me with the spoiler tags too. Maybe it's time to retire.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:31 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:27 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:12 pmThat's rich coming from someone who didn't notice that my rainbow was copied from the previous page.

"wow, i can't believe you actually really believed i was telling the truth while i was obviously being purposefully deceptive for a weird joke"

I didn't post the rainbow list to make a joke. I posted the rainbow list to determine the level to which people were paying attention to see if I could analyse any level of collusion.

Has there been any analysis by Mac on collusion levels?

Daisy does not look great, given that analysis. Not enough for me to vote for her right now, I'm willing to give her more time to make more posts to analyze.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:45 pm

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:44 pm Daisy does not look great, given that analysis. Not enough for me to vote for her right now, I'm willing to give her more time to make more posts to analyze.

what if it's between me and her?

I dunno. You could be bad as well.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:03 am

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:37 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:31 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:27 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:12 pmThat's rich coming from someone who didn't notice that my rainbow was copied from the previous page.

"wow, i can't believe you actually really believed i was telling the truth while i was obviously being purposefully deceptive for a weird joke"

I didn't post the rainbow list to make a joke. I posted the rainbow list to determine the level to which people were paying attention to see if I could analyse any level of collusion.

Has there been any analysis by Mac on collusion levels?

No because I didn't find any.

Looks like you just posted the rainbow list to be a shit-disturber, and made up this collusion test after to try and give it more validity.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:09 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:02 pm @ Epignosis

What is the strategic difference between lynching Sloonei and lynching me?

He doesn't care about the roof.

That's a heavy accusation, why do you say that?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:23 am I would be a remarkably stupid lynch right now.

I am not moved much by Epi's case on you. Also, this post from you is believable to me. I'd save your life.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:37 am I would prefer to be voting for Daisy over Epi right now. I might still prefer to vote for Kyle too. I'm not sure.

Kylemii
Sloonei
Epignosis
Daisy

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:44 am Concern about Daisy: she projected a random vote, which given her circumstances would be understandable. She then backed away from that random vote and actually gave a reason for voting for Sloonei (contingent upon trusting Kyle), who at the time happened to be gaining his most heat of the game to that point. The timing is dubious.

That's why she's the bottom of the rainbow list I made.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:48 am @Long Con whatcha gonna do with that vote?

I was watching TV and keeping an eye on the time. My plan was to make you not get lynched if it were in my power. One minute before it was up, you and Daisy were tied. Then I voted for her at the same time one or two folks switched to Daisy as well.

Sorry, Daisy, but the way things were going, it was between three people that I had reasons to believe they were Civ.... and you, with your four posts, and slight sketchiness.

nutella wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:07 am

nutella wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:06 am wolves are Sloonei, Sloonei, Sloonei, and Sloonei

not lazar wolf tho he's a good'un

Depending how this game plays out, I may consider including Lazar Wolf in Mafia: A World Asunder.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:55 amBased on this?

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:36 am

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:10 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:16 pmLC picks out the specific part of my response that supports his point despite the fact that the part he cropped out makes his point of agreement less meaningful.

Looking back, that is true. It was unintentional - I like to cut down quotes to the part I'm responding to for easier reading, and I lost that relevant part and reacted to just my slice. Kyle said that it's 100% false before the part I analyzed.

It's alright.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:57 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:48 pm Do you scum read me?

I don't quite scum read you but I don't town read you yet either.

You haven't done the things I expect town Sloonei to do yet which is a cause for concern.

I would like to eventually know what those things are, because it would help me to believe this statement is real.

well to summarize it, I expect Sloonei to ride around on his bike throwing rocks in people's spokes. Always trying to get their wheels to skip, to see if their mafia baseball cards fall out of their pockets. Similar to how early Jay operates but with a different composure and also his name is blue. He puts out his tentacles and feels shit out, asks people probing questions, gets people involved when they aren't involved. That's how I see him at least.

I haven't seen those things yet.

Just caught up to this post. Yes, because of that. I liked the metaphor he used for what he expected to see from Sloonei. His explanation seemed very real, not like something he just made up on the spot just because I pressed him.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:08 pm Oh, and I've thought about how I've forgotten about LC every time I've been catching up, and now I did it again. So that's a thing. I usually have vibes and feels on LC, but not so much now, cause there's nothing much to say.

LC, why are you disappearing for me? Don't you know I not so secretly love you?

I am here. Trying to stay caught up and stuff, just caught up this thread, almost dinner time, I'll be back this evening. Splitting time with Mortal Kombat catchup, I'm probably pages behind again since I went to work.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:08 pm Let me offer an exercise for you stiff-necked people (that's from the Torah, by the way):

You are my mafia teammate. You are witnessing the things I am saying in the thread.

What would you be saying to me in BTSC? How would you evaluate my performance so far? Would I have met your expectations as a teammate?

I wouldn't be telling you what to do, because no one tells Epi what to do. I have no expectations to meet as a baddie teammate, because I'm the bottom-of-the-barrel most awful baddie there is most of the time, so I have no right to disdain the play of others in that way.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:24 pm

Long Con wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:21 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:08 pm Let me offer an exercise for you stiff-necked people (that's from the Torah, by the way):

You are my mafia teammate. You are witnessing the things I am saying in the thread.

What would you be saying to me in BTSC? How would you evaluate my performance so far? Would I have met your expectations as a teammate?

I wouldn't be telling you what to do, because no one tells Epi what to do. I have no expectations to meet as a baddie teammate, because I'm the bottom-of-the-barrel most awful baddie there is most of the time, so I have no right to disdain the play of others in that way.

We won't believe that for a second.

Despite boatloads of evidence to the contrary. I know.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:24 pm

Long Con wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:21 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:08 pm Let me offer an exercise for you stiff-necked people (that's from the Torah, by the way):

You are my mafia teammate. You are witnessing the things I am saying in the thread.

What would you be saying to me in BTSC? How would you evaluate my performance so far? Would I have met your expectations as a teammate?

I wouldn't be telling you what to do, because no one tells Epi what to do. I have no expectations to meet as a baddie teammate, because I'm the bottom-of-the-barrel most awful baddie there is most of the time, so I have no right to disdain the play of others in that way.

We won't believe that for a second.

Did you see Phenon Origins?

Epignosis wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:42 pm I said that "You failed me," because you of ALL people should know what I was doing Day 1. You keep trying to string me up instead.

I'm bad at remembering. Can you remind me what you were doing Day 1? Two games going on, hard for a guy like me to keep perfect track.

Excellent result! And the night went well too!

By that I mean welcome Spacedaisy.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:38 am I thought Kyle looked bad in his early posts. I will make no apology for that. I could have been wrong. I might have been wrong. Having experienced frustration on par with what he exhibited, I'm feeling it's likely that I was wrong. But it looked to me on Day 0 like he was arguing against his own conscience. It was awful to make a case and get absolutely no critical response to it other than "you're bad." Even if I was 100% wrong, which absolutely might be the case and was always a possibility in mind, I just wanted to fucking talk about my suspect. I was never, on any planet, trying to bury or bully Kyle.

I appreciate your post, Daisy. You're wrong about me.

Also I told FZ "not to catch up" because I'm actively campaigning against catching up. It's in my signature and I talked about it at length after Vocaroo. Catching up when you're far behind in the thread is a waste of time.

I agree - I have made the difficult decision in both these games already, to allow myself to skip pages to be present for 'current' thread progression over catching up. It's not ideal, but I have to work with what time I have.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:56 am Nice night. no kill is good news and space daisy replacing back in is also good news.

Yesterday was kind of a cluster-fuck, but today is a new day. Let's try to do a little better this time. No one died and Space Daisy's replaced back in, so we can treat this like a second chance.

@Spacedaisy I'm sorry for my part in your original iteration's death I got cold feet about lynching Sloonei and changed my vote last minute, although I guess 2-3 other players did the same thing at the same time which is still pretty weird.

I'm not gonna crop your question out of that post cus it looks like a formatting nightmare, but the reason I singled you out for that question is cus at that time first-you hadn't commented on me or any of those shenanigans. You've always been really quick to recognize my civilian game since... idk... probably firefly? Your read on me would a potential avenue to me having a read on you, had you not died.

OH my God BR has gone to bed, but I KNOW she'd be absolutely thrilled to see you bring Firefly up.

I wanted to look over speedchuck's ISO, because he's a mainline player right now that has sidestepped most attention. So far, not such a good look to me.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:24 pm If I may make an observation, regarding the setup:

Tevye can get BTSC with his daughters. In doing so, he can confirm them town to himself. So that's neat.

However, if he doesn't search for them, the town gains a cop in the match-maker. Match-maker can search for BTSC, which would (if Tevye doesn't submit actions) only be held by the mafia.

We trade off a BTSC-finder and a town searcher/btsc/lover thing for a cop. Does anyone think this is a good idea?

Speedchuck's first real post was a mechanics post with a twist. JJJ (? I think?) presented it as a Civ indicator - like speedchuck had a Civ mindset from which he built this idea. Looking back at speedy's ISO, I don't agree with that. I fairly commonly will start a game with a role analysis overview, with some 'questions to the public' on how to most-Civviely proceed with certain roles. I do this often as a Civ, and often enough as a baddie. I always feel some smugness when I'm Civ and get called out for it, because it validates my baddie use of it. My point is, that it's NAI, as the cool dudes say.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:20 pm Three scumreads on Kylemii, all for different reasons. If Jay is being serious. That's crazy.

And nobody in the thread is trying to defend him. Also crazy.

I put scum Kylemii at like... idk, 60% odds?

LC/Kyle not w/w.
FZ./Kyle not w/w.

"Disgusting." The effect of the first line is to focus attention MORE on Kyle, with the editorial that it's crazy that this could be happening. What does it mean to put that out there? Is it honest bewilderment, like "Wow whoa, that's so crazy wow!" or is it nudging a light agenda, like "That's maybe too crazy to be a coincidence". He puts out the "crazy" twice, and then give a scum rating that is JUST high enough to be "I'd lynch him if it came down to it, and this number would cover my ass about it" but low enough to withstand a drop below 50% and suddenly Kyle is cool, if the tides shifted even slightly. That is just bogus to me.

It's the w/w part that I really don't like. This is a fine way to buddy, if speedchuck is bad: You don't have to say the players are Civ and put yourself out there for TMI comments... you just create a situation where they're "not Mafia with..." and push a 60% Kyle-bad agenda. The bonus is that when Kyle flips Civ, LC and FZ are suddenly the "possible Wolf" side of the pair, creating a natural opening for the midgame push to those players.

Not to mention that "not w/w" has to be the darling of the baddie world... you get to give opinions without committing to reading ANYONE as Civ OR bad! Poor form.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:36 pm

FZ. wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:29 pm Speedchuck, can you explain what w/w is?

wolf/wolf
mafia/mafia

You two are probably not on a team together, is what I'm saying

linki: as for your second post, I could see FZ and LC's points on Kylemii. For a guy who probably knew that JJJ's suspicion was just pressure, he sure acted very seriously about it. But, at the same time, no teammates have influenced the thread either.

Those reasons.

" For a guy who probably knew that JJJ's suspicion was just pressure, he sure acted very seriously about it. But, at the same time, no teammates have influenced the thread either."
" For a guy who probably knew that JJJ's suspicion was just pressure, he sure acted very seriously about it. But, at the same time, no teammates have influenced the thread either."
" For a guy who probably knew that JJJ's suspicion was just pressure, he sure acted very seriously about it. But, at the same time, no teammates have influenced the thread either."

I just pasted it a couple of extra times because I actually hate this very much.

Easy adjective: wishy-washy. If that floats your boat. Doesn't always do much for me, but this is clearly a wishy-washy statement.

My problem is that this says: "You all can probably see that Kyle is bad. But here's a meaningless reason why he's not."

How early was this? Is that how you all act when you're on a baddie team? You rush to your teammate's defense on Day 0 because JJJ said some silly stuff? Balderdash! Why would you act like you assume a guy with baddie teammates would have them "rushing to his aid"? What??

I can't stop reading these sentences over and over. It just grates on me more and more every time. I have to move on.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:55 pm I still have a scumread on Kylemii. Stronger than before Jay dropped the suspicion.

If I still have it come Day 1 Start I'll tell you why.

Winky intrigue aside, if speedchuck is bad, then it behooves him to hang on to a suspicion, and to make it more his own by pointing out that Jay dropped it.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:55 am

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:29 am

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:28 am

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:19 am Jay and Kyle are highly unlikely scum partners, but I could see one or the other being scum.

... don't know if I agree with this.

which part?

First part. :P

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:47 am Non-fiction dialogue:

Anyone who really believes I would prefer to whip this thread into a frenzy for appearances than just let it snail along with nothing but theme-inspired chatter has no clue about my mafia-aligned play. No clue.

Yeah I don't trust your calls to meta. It bothers me more that you said this than the rest of your play this game.

This is all negative. Every single word is working to place suspicion on the people he's talking about.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:22 am

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:01 am

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:55 am

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:29 am

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:28 am

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:19 am Jay and Kyle are highly unlikely scum partners, but I could see one or the other being scum.

... don't know if I agree with this.

which part?

First part. :P

My scum read on Kyle is contingent on him being made genuinely uncomfortable bu Jay's fake scumtell on him. I can only see them as compatible partners if that was an elaborate distancing measure to kick off the game.

I don't have a meta read on Kylemii mafia. But I'm personally always more emotional and reactive as mafia. Check out Pirates. I don't see that as a factor.

More negativity, Kyle was emotional and reactive, so Speedchuck anecdotally points the finger at him again.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:17 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:14 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:41 amBelieve me or don't, this entire dialogue is just WIFOM to people who aren't me.

the other stuff you've said basically amounts to sandbagging but this part is a valid point, I think

That's not a point. That's like... a disclaimer or something.

Jabbing at Kyle. Looking for more emotional reactions?

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:24 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:20 am I’m frankly fine with being mislynched if Epignosis gets hanged immediately thereafter. Sometimes that’s what it takes for anyone to critically assess that dude.

So you're saying there's practically ~0% chance you are both town? Cause if not, you've consigned us to two mislynches there. Which is more of a frustrated action than one that is seeking the best for town.

NAI, necessarily.

Just looking at this from the perspective that Speedchuck is bad and JJJ and Epi are good... everything he says is a clever thing to say. The "0% chance" reinforces the forced dichotomy that JJJ's (emotional) statements suggest. The "two mislynches" becomes "speedchuck tried to warn us" later. Then "... best for town" throws doubt on JJJ, BUT he instantly tops it off with "NAI"... so, what, that last sentence that implies JJJ doesn't really want what's best for town should be disregarded?
Jumping in to nitpick JJJ. JJJ is involved in a JJJ-Epi thing, where both of them are calling each other bad, and speedchuck comes in from the sidelines to simplify two paragraphs of JJJ's into a mirror-image, 100% hypocritical exposé.

That takes some real focus, like he wanted to make this conclusion happen, and went about doing it. Go ahead and read the two paragraphs he conflated. I can't, in any honest fashion, make speedchuck's analysis work. It's two different players, two different gaming prersonalities, two different conversations, two different situations, and one is a SELF-analysis, which brings in so much extra baggage that the comparison becomes thin-ice-fragile immediately. And yet he opens the comparison with a levered- and shimmied-in sound bite that reflects none of that.

That's all I have for this night. I hoped I'd get farther through speedchuck's ISO, but the stuff I did look at just made me write so much. I never even got back to Mortal Kombat to catch up there. Good night. I'm placing a vote on speedchuck because he looks pretty bad right now.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:10 pm Seriously, that is a consistent meta disclaimer. I play a good town game as 3P or Mafia. I am crap town, usually just skating by with power role usage.

This speedchuck post is a page before my current catch-up level in Mortal Kombat mafia:

speedchuck wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:10 amPlenty of observations, valuable ones, can be made without meta.
I remember when meta was just another avenue of analysis, rather than the only one.

I don't know if this is a Mafia faux pas, and I don't know if the dichotomy I'm seeing here is all that legit. But that speedchuck was downplaying the use of meta, shortly before our speedchuck pushes a 100% meta defense for himself.

And now I'm meta-ing across concurrent games. How meta IS this???

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:32 pm So, first of all, FZ.

I want to talk about this post.

FZ. wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:06 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:56 pm Daisy, Dave, Dizzy, FZ, NVN, I have almost no impression at all of any of these players yet

I'm here, I'm trying to catch up but it's not working for me very well.
I'm on page 8 so things can change. At the moment, I find myself agreeing with JJJ on Epi. Something there feels not genuine. I haven't played for a while, but I think civ Epi is more careful, and what he's doing now, is acting like he's going full force after what he believes. Sloonei said he wouldn't be this blunt on day 1, but if people are going to say that, then Epi has no problem acting just like that.

Kyle is really defending himself and making sense, so I do feel better about him. That being said, I like to trust my initial instincts, and even though no one seemed to agree with me, the post I talked about did feel to me like a frustrated baddie who doesn't like the civvies' powers.

"I find myself" is a hedge phrase. Moreover, with what exactly does FZ. agree? Instead of being specific, she says something there feels not genuine. What is this something? This statement baffles me. Not because of whether it's a correct perception or not, but because of what she accuses me of doing now: Acting like I'm going full force after what I believe. If I am bad, then I don't truly believe in what I'm saying. In FZ.'s mind, how can I be bad if I'm going full force after what I (genuinely) believe? This sentence is supposed to buttress FZ.'s previous commentary about me, but it weakens it: Was my perceived bluntness (i.e., going full-force after what I believe) the product of me drawing a mafia role, which is what the blue statement implies, or was it a product of what I believed other people would say about me?

And this is where FZ. gives herself the luxury of voting Kylemii or defending Kylemii- whichever suits her purpose.

There's so much hedge in this post, I could block the neighbors' view of the roof.

When you speak of hedging... is that like a general wishy-washiness, leaving both sides open, kind of thing?

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:47 pm

Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:39 pmWhen you speak of hedging... is that like a general wishy-washiness, leaving both sides open, kind of thing?

It could be.

Spoiler: show

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:32 pm So, first of all, FZ.

I want to talk about this post.

FZ. wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:06 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:56 pm Daisy, Dave, Dizzy, FZ, NVN, I have almost no impression at all of any of these players yet

I'm here, I'm trying to catch up but it's not working for me very well.
I'm on page 8 so things can change. At the moment, I find myself agreeing with JJJ on Epi. Something there feels not genuine. I haven't played for a while, but I think civ Epi is more careful, and what he's doing now, is acting like he's going full force after what he believes. Sloonei said he wouldn't be this blunt on day 1, but if people are going to say that, then Epi has no problem acting just like that.

Kyle is really defending himself and making sense, so I do feel better about him. That being said, I like to trust my initial instincts, and even though no one seemed to agree with me, the post I talked about did feel to me like a frustrated baddie who doesn't like the civvies' powers.

"I find myself" is a hedge phrase. Moreover, with what exactly does FZ. agree? Instead of being specific, she says something there feels not genuine. What is this something? This statement baffles me. Not because of whether it's a correct perception or not, but because of what she accuses me of doing now: Acting like I'm going full force after what I believe. If I am bad, then I don't truly believe in what I'm saying. In FZ.'s mind, how can I be bad if I'm going full force after what I (genuinely) believe? This sentence is supposed to buttress FZ.'s previous commentary about me, but it weakens it: Was my perceived bluntness (i.e., going full-force after what I believe) the product of me drawing a mafia role, which is what the blue statement implies, or was it a product of what I believed other people would say about me?

And this is where FZ. gives herself the luxury of voting Kylemii or defending Kylemii- whichever suits her purpose.

There's so much hedge in this post, I could block the neighbors' view of the roof.

I'm on page 8 so things can change. At the moment, I find myself agreeing with JJJ on Epi

I feel like this all could have been yellow, from the start. "Things can change" "At the moment"... are those not equally hedgey? FZ. certainly is laying down some tentative stuff here, it's important for her to make it clear she's not committing.

But you ask what she's agreeing with - I read it as she's agreeing with Jay that your posts aren't genuine. You criticize the way she doesn't go into specifics, which is reasonable... FZ., would you like to clarify?

The blue part is some classic Epi bizarro-logic to me. She said you are acting like you're going after what you believe. That doesn't imply that you genuinely believe... those beliefs. Just that you are bad and putting on an act as though you genuinely hold the beliefs. Contrasted to her projected Civ Epi, who is unlikely to commit strongly to those beliefs at all.

And the red part... a false dichotomy. "the product of me drawing a mafia role" and "a product of what I believed other people would say about me" are the same side of the same coin.

It is because you drew a mafia role that you chose to analyze what you believed other people would say about you.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:31 pm Does the post make you believe FZ. is a civilian?

No, it's not the kind of post that makes me say "THERE'S the reason I think she's Civ." The needle points more to baddie than Civ, for the earlier stuff about hedging and making damn sure we all knew her post was NOT set in stone by any means.

You're reaching way too hard with the red and blue stuff though. I'm not switching my vote from speedchuck to FZ. based on your case, no matter how colourful you made it.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:02 pm We had no nightkill last night, but nobody is talking about things that might have caused that. I have trouble identifying a clear-cut consensus town read, so a doctor save on Night 1 would be incredible but not impossible. What other roles are there that could have stopped a kill from going through?

I looked over the roles way back in signups, and I haven't really reread them yet.

FZ. wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:24 pm Damn, just wrote a post and it got deleted.
First, I find it almost impossible to catch up, so please bare with me. I'm really busy, and probably shouldn't have come back from the break, but that's what I did, and I'm trying to keep up.

I skimmed and read on and off, and I'm still a couple of pages behind, but here are a few of my impressions since I last left after my vote for Epi.

First, I really can't decide regarding Kyle. On the one hand, there's my first impression which made me seriously pinged. But there are posts where the tone feels very genuine to me, and he seems like he's upset from a civvie point of view. On the other hand, I value Sloonei's opinion, and although I've played only very few games with him, I think he's a very methodical player, and often gets the job done. He feels a little obsessed about Kyle, but it feels real to me. Not sure I agree, but it's something to think about.

I think I've changed my mind regarding Epi. I'm glad people didn't follow, and that he didn't end up getting lynched. His posts after I left felt much more like what I expect from civvie Epi.

Still feel very good about JJJ. I've seen nothing from him that makes me think he's bad.
Same goes for Sloonei. I actually like that he's asking people not to catch up. I do that sometimes as well, because the best way to catch a mafia is to interact with them live, so it makes me feel good about him.
Still, Sloonei, I have to say, that when I don't catch up I feel like I have no idea what's going on, so I guess it has to be a mixture.

Mac is a question mark. At some points he feels like the person I trust the most, but then I'm reminded a game I've played with him (can't remember
which), where he was bad and got everyone to trust him. So I'm keeping this at the back of my mind, just to remind me never to fully trust him. For now, he's high on my trusted list.

LC is one of my new top suspects. His game style feels like something I've seen lots of mafia do. He's asking clarification questions. It's something LC doesn't normally do.

That is not a true statement. You are inventing that about me.

For example:

Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:39 pm
When you speak of hedging... is that like a general wishy-washiness, leaving both sides open, kind of thing?

Here is another example:

Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:23 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:32 pm So, first of all, FZ.

I want to talk about this post.

FZ. wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:06 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:56 pm Daisy, Dave, Dizzy, FZ, NVN, I have almost no impression at all of any of these players yet

I'm here, I'm trying to catch up but it's not working for me very well.
I'm on page 8 so things can change. At the moment, I find myself agreeing with JJJ on Epi. Something there feels not genuine. I haven't played for a while, but I think civ Epi is more careful, and what he's doing now, is acting like he's going full force after what he believes. Sloonei said he wouldn't be this blunt on day 1, but if people are going to say that, then Epi has no problem acting just like that.

Kyle is really defending himself and making sense, so I do feel better about him. That being said, I like to trust my initial instincts, and even though no one seemed to agree with me, the post I talked about did feel to me like a frustrated baddie who doesn't like the civvies' powers.

"I find myself" is a hedge phrase. Moreover, with what exactly does FZ. agree? Instead of being specific, she says something there feels not genuine. What is this something? This statement baffles me. Not because of whether it's a correct perception or not, but because of what she accuses me of doing now: Acting like I'm going full force after what I believe. If I am bad, then I don't truly believe in what I'm saying. In FZ.'s mind, how can I be bad if I'm going full force after what I (genuinely) believe? This sentence is supposed to buttress FZ.'s previous commentary about me, but it weakens it: Was my perceived bluntness (i.e., going full-force after what I believe) the product of me drawing a mafia role, which is what the blue statement implies, or was it a product of what I believed other people would say about me?

And this is where FZ. gives herself the luxury of voting Kylemii or defending Kylemii- whichever suits her purpose.

There's so much hedge in this post, I could block the neighbors' view of the roof.

I'm on page 8 so things can change. At the moment, I find myself agreeing with JJJ on Epi

I feel like this all could have been yellow, from the start. "Things can change" "At the moment"... are those not equally hedgey? FZ. certainly is laying down some tentative stuff here, it's important for her to make it clear she's not committing.

But you ask what she's agreeing with - I read it as she's agreeing with Jay that your posts aren't genuine. You criticize the way she doesn't go into specifics, which is reasonable... FZ., would you like to clarify?

The blue part is some classic Epi bizarro-logic to me. She said you are acting like you're going after what you believe. That doesn't imply that you genuinely believe... those beliefs. Just that you are bad and putting on an act as though you genuinely hold the beliefs. Contrasted to her projected Civ Epi, who is unlikely to commit strongly to those beliefs at all.

And the red part... a false dichotomy. "the product of me drawing a mafia role" and "a product of what I believed other people would say about me" are the same side of the same coin.

It is because you drew a mafia role that you chose to analyze what you believed other people would say about you.

First of all, he's sort of defending/explaining me. Civvie LC doesn't do that.

How is this "first of all" when it follows your previous points? Never mind.

"Civvie LC doesn't do that" is the second time this post that you are making something up about me.

He let's people defend themselves or explain themselves. Again, he's asking for clarifications, which I don't remember him doing.
He's acting too nice, I can't explain it, but all his recent posts ping me like crazy.

Instead of criticizing that I agree with Epi that your comments about him and JJJ need clarifying, why don't you just clarify them?

nutella wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:47 pm

FZ. wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:41 pm @linki: What's LMS?

Last Man Standing (a style of game without traditional teams). I was making a joke in reference to a recent game where LC faked thinking the game was LMS when it wasn't.

LOL the funniest part is, I wasn't really faking. I had to pretend I was faking because of how dumb the truth was.