Fiddler on the Roof Mafia

[JaggedJimmyJay]

There's obviously plenty of evidence to the contrary, Jim. It feels ridiculous to have to say it, but I can go back a decade to see hundreds of games where someone did something on Day 1 that 'started it up' in that way. Most of them didn't contain you. At least half the people in this game have been responsible for getting things going with some daring push or pushy dare.

So, is this really your honest opinion?

Yes. 12 hours passed and nothing was happening. I took it upon myself to change that. I had no immediate evidence that someone else was going to do the same. Perhaps someone would have -- "perhaps" isn't good enough for me. I did what I thought was necessary.

[speedchuck]

Was the thread really that accelerated before Epi blew JJJ's restriction?

IDK. Starting to doubt myself. I might be in a tunnel.

Linki: I skimmed vocaroo, and found your passionate posts to be more passionate, less unreasonable? But that was just a skim. I ain't listeneing to all that

[Long Con]

Yes. The Epi/LC dynamic is in play here, only Epi changed his target to Jay to shake things up.

I know, right - the guy finally leaves me alone, what a relief!

[Kylemii]

The difference that I think speedchuck and Kyle are missing in my description of my own play:

Would I make it look like I am trying to accelerate a thread as a bad guy? Absolutely.

Would I actually do a good job? Nope.

Jay what would be the physical difference between a good job and a bad job of accelerating?

[Epignosis]

Sloonei, if Epi's suspicion of me is built upon my reaction to his turd, why is the premier premise he's promoted that my initial poop on Kyle was a performance rather than a real attempt to generate content? That was my first action in this thread, well before he turded you and I.

I don't know. Epi should answer this.

Can you reword the question. I don't understand what's being asked.

Spoiler: show

Cue the "Epignosis is pretending to be ignorant song and dance."

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The difference that I think speedchuck and Kyle are missing in my description of my own play:

Would I make it look like I am trying to accelerate a thread as a bad guy? Absolutely.

Would I actually do a good job? Nope.

Jay what would be the physical difference between a good job and a bad job of accelerating?

Evil Jay has said some version of this many times:

"Come on guys. A slow thread benefits the mafia. We have to get this thing moving and maintain a greater pace."

Then, predictably, nobody cares. The thread remains stagnant and nothing happens.

Good Jay has also said that, mostly in ancient history before he came recognize that nobody cares. Good Jay recognizes that accelerating a thread requires actions, not pleas for activity. Good Jay pokes someone in the fucking eye and makes them scream. Good Jay continues poking until the poked player explodes and/or other participants involve themselves somehow in the poking fiasco. That's content generation. That's acceleration.

[Sloonei]

Sloonei, if Epi's suspicion of me is built upon my reaction to his turd, why is the premier premise he's promoted that my initial poop on Kyle was a performance rather than a real attempt to generate content? That was my first action in this thread, well before he turded you and I.

I don't know. Epi should answer this.

Can you reword the question. I don't understand what's being asked.

Spoiler: show

Cue the "Epignosis is pretending to be ignorant song and dance."

What

[Epignosis]

If people are going to vote for me, I just have one request: keep the tally close. Don't let the wagon take off.

Suspect me for saying that if you want, I don't give a shit. Just please keep it close.

I do not plan on voting for you today.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Sloonei, if Epi's suspicion of me is built upon my reaction to his turd, why is the premier premise he's promoted that my initial poop on Kyle was a performance rather than a real attempt to generate content? That was my first action in this thread, well before he turded you and I.

I don't know. Epi should answer this.

Can you reword the question. I don't understand what's being asked.

Spoiler: show

Cue the "Epignosis is pretending to be ignorant song and dance."

The question was meant for Sloonei. He feels your suspicion of me is more a matter of my reaction to your initial suggestion that he and I are mafia teammates. I am suggesting that your suspicion of me pre-dates that, because it originates with my initial "fake tell" move against Kyle and your suggestion that it was me faking it.

Which of those assertions is more accurate?

[Epignosis]

Yes. The Epi/LC dynamic is in play here, only Epi changed his target to Jay to shake things up.

Could be. If so, it sheds a lot of new light on why that always sets LC off so much.

But it's LC that drives me bananas.

[Sloonei]

Inore that. My phone got ahead of itself and told me I was done using the keypad.

What is the true source of your suspicion against Jay, Epi? Did it begin in earnest before you announced your paranoia read about the two of us, or did it begin with his prod of Kyle? Or some other time?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If people are going to vote for me, I just have one request: keep the tally close. Don't let the wagon take off.

Suspect me for saying that if you want, I don't give a shit. Just please keep it close.

I do not plan on voting for you today.

Do you have any perspectives of the people who have done so, or mused over suspecting me?

[Kylemii]

There's obviously plenty of evidence to the contrary, Jim. It feels ridiculous to have to say it, but I can go back a decade to see hundreds of games where someone did something on Day 1 that 'started it up' in that way. Most of them didn't contain you. At least half the people in this game have been responsible for getting things going with some daring push or pushy dare.

So, is this really your honest opinion?

Yes. 12 hours passed and nothing was happening. I took it upon myself to change that. I had no immediate evidence that someone else was going to do the same. Perhaps someone would have -- "perhaps" isn't good enough for me. I did what I thought was necessary.

2nd question, why 12 hours?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

2nd question, why 12 hours?

Because that's a lot of hours.

[Kylemii]

2nd question, why 12 hours?

Because that's a lot of hours.

sorry I guess my question was unclear, why not sooner? when did you first check into the thread?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

2nd question, why 12 hours?

Because that's a lot of hours.

sorry I guess my question was unclear, why not sooner? when did you first check into the thread?

I'm happy to give people some time to check in and goof around before I lose my mind.

[DFaraday]

Speed not being on the poll was an oversight. Anyone who wants to cast a vote for him just bold his name in the thread.

[Epignosis]

Sloonei, if Epi's suspicion of me is built upon my reaction to his turd, why is the premier premise he's promoted that my initial poop on Kyle was a performance rather than a real attempt to generate content? That was my first action in this thread, well before he turded you and I.

I don't know. Epi should answer this.

Can you reword the question. I don't understand what's being asked.

Spoiler: show

Cue the "Epignosis is pretending to be ignorant song and dance."

The question was meant for Sloonei. He feels your suspicion of me is more a matter of my reaction to your initial suggestion that he and I are mafia teammates. I am suggesting that your suspicion of me pre-dates that, because it originates with my initial "fake tell" move against Kyle and your suggestion that it was me faking it.

Which of those assertions is more accurate?

Yours.

[speedchuck]

Speed not being on the poll was an oversight. Anyone who wants to cast a vote for him just bold his name in the thread.

Or don't. Just imply it.

[speedchuck]

I could move my vote back to Kylemii.

[Long Con]

Yes. The Epi/LC dynamic is in play here, only Epi changed his target to Jay to shake things up.

Could be. If so, it sheds a lot of new light on why that always sets LC off so much.

But it's LC that drives me bananas.

[Long Con]

2nd question, why 12 hours?

Because that's a lot of hours.

...and that's terrible.

[Epignosis]

Sloonei, if Epi's suspicion of me is built upon my reaction to his turd, why is the premier premise he's promoted that my initial poop on Kyle was a performance rather than a real attempt to generate content? That was my first action in this thread, well before he turded you and I.

I don't know. Epi should answer this.

Can you reword the question. I don't understand what's being asked.

Spoiler: show

Cue the "Epignosis is pretending to be ignorant song and dance."

What

Inore that. My phone got ahead of itself and told me I was done using the keypad.

What is the true source of your suspicion against Jay, Epi? Did it begin in earnest before you announced your paranoia read about the two of us, or did it begin with his prod of Kyle? Or some other time?

Good thing you clarified. I interpreted your reaction as "What"



To be more specific regarding my thought process (since I'm so often accused of pretzel logic and am getting that criticism here again), my initial concern was how Kylemii failed to consider that 3J was bad and was making a move against him. Had the Vocaroo sequel not have happened, I might have carried on with considering that a sign of Kyle's (subconscious) guilt revealing itself, but when I read Kyle's posts in his own voice, that feeling went away.

At the same time, I was thinking about how 3J said something obviously absurd (at least it was obvious to me), and that if the plan was to figure out who is bad by generating content from saying something so obviously absurd (3J at least took credit for generating content), how genuine was 3J being? The fake tell maneuver was too over-the-top for me to believe that an honest 3J expected to catch mafia with it, and because of that, it looked too much like an act.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

At the same time, I was thinking about how 3J said something obviously absurd (at least it was obvious to me), and that if the plan was to figure out who is bad by generating content from saying something so obviously absurd (3J at least took credit for generating content), how genuine was 3J being? The fake tell maneuver was too over-the-top for me to believe that an honest 3J expected to catch mafia with it, and because of that, it looked too much like an act.

Folks need to understand that "catching mafia" isn't the only thing to when a game begins. Some mild suspicions can emerge from a pile of bullshit (which my "tell" on Kyle absolutely was), but civilian reads can come of that too. Any game-relevant content can be judged for alignment. That mini rainbow I spat out was an immediate reception of how the maneuver was handled by people in the thread. Early in a game it's the latter I care about most. Making a confident mafia read on Day 1 is very difficult, but confident civilian reads come more easily. I value that a lot, and it can't happen if the content in the thread doesn't reflect people playing the game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

2nd question, why 12 hours?

Because that's a lot of hours.

...and that's terrible.

What is?

[LoRab]

Eek! I'm here!!!! Went to bed before first post was up last night and then one of those days where I didn't actually have time to check in. I need to get used to scheduling games into my day again!! I'm totally distracted tonight by life, so unsure about thread goings on. I need to reread to figure out what I think about Kyle, J, Epi, etc. I should be around a bunch tomorrow.

And totally appreciating all of the thread jewiness, btw! Shalom, y'all!

This is LoRab's only non-green post. There's a little player salad. It's not my favorite post. She should be given a chance to say more in the coming hours.

She will. She skimmed everything before this post and had things going on and was distracted. She's been busy all morning. She is starting to forumulate thoughts.

[Long Con]

2nd question, why 12 hours?

Because that's a lot of hours.

...and that's terrible.

What is?

[Epignosis]

At the same time, I was thinking about how 3J said something obviously absurd (at least it was obvious to me), and that if the plan was to figure out who is bad by generating content from saying something so obviously absurd (3J at least took credit for generating content), how genuine was 3J being? The fake tell maneuver was too over-the-top for me to believe that an honest 3J expected to catch mafia with it, and because of that, it looked too much like an act.

Folks need to understand that "catching mafia" isn't the only thing to when a game begins. Some mild suspicions can emerge from a pile of bullshit (which my "tell" on Kyle absolutely was), but civilian reads can come of that too. Any game-relevant content can be judged for alignment. That mini rainbow I spat out was an immediate reception of how the maneuver was handled by people in the thread. Early in a game it's the latter I care about most. Making a confident mafia read on Day 1 is very difficult, but confident civilian reads come more easily. I value that a lot, and it can't happen if the content in the thread doesn't reflect people playing the game.

I get all that.

My point was that if everybody realizes your bullshit is...well, bullshit, they're going to treat it as such. speedchuck certainly did:

Kyle is with the Russian Police. Discuss.

strongly disagree

He's strong-arming us!

fucking

*votes Kylemii*

nutella's reaction doesn't strike me as serious:

okay so you think a 48 hour long game with teens who kept being terrible dicks to each other is going to be indicative of how I play in a real game as mafia?

one game isn't enough for real tell correlation, famous poker player sneezes the first time they roll a full house you don't just assume that they have a full house the second time they sneeze

So you recognize the parallel then?

boom rekt

Other than Sloonei (who voted on the basis of Kyle's reaction), who said anything about your opening move? Kylemii appears to be the only one to take what you said about him seriously.

I believe that if you were going to move the thread along for the benefit of the civilian faction, you would have come up with something a little more believable than what you did to stir up conversation. That's my position, and why I suspect you. That Sloonei hounded Kyle over what was obviously absurd gave me the impression that you two were throwing your weight around to lynch a floundering Kylemii.

[Long Con]

At the same time, I was thinking about how 3J said something obviously absurd (at least it was obvious to me), and that if the plan was to figure out who is bad by generating content from saying something so obviously absurd (3J at least took credit for generating content), how genuine was 3J being? The fake tell maneuver was too over-the-top for me to believe that an honest 3J expected to catch mafia with it, and because of that, it looked too much like an act.

Folks need to understand that "catching mafia" isn't the only thing to when a game begins. Some mild suspicions can emerge from a pile of bullshit (which my "tell" on Kyle absolutely was), but civilian reads can come of that too. Any game-relevant content can be judged for alignment. That mini rainbow I spat out was an immediate reception of how the maneuver was handled by people in the thread. Early in a game it's the latter I care about most. Making a confident mafia read on Day 1 is very difficult, but confident civilian reads come more easily. I value that a lot, and it can't happen if the content in the thread doesn't reflect people playing the game.

[Epignosis]

If people are going to vote for me, I just have one request: keep the tally close. Don't let the wagon take off.

Suspect me for saying that if you want, I don't give a shit. Just please keep it close.

I do not plan on voting for you today.

Do you have any perspectives of the people who have done so, or mused over suspecting me?

I didn't take MacDougall's vote seriously. My impression was that he was getting revenge for his Day 1 lynch elsewhere.

I don't have an opinion of speedchuck.

[LoRab]

OK....I'm not seeing 3J as bad--I'm seeing his typical civ game. I'm also not seeing Kyle as bad--his reaction rings true with what I remember his reaction being in general when accused in any way--I'm null on him. I could see Epi being bad (despite his use of Hebrew in a post, and almost spelling it correctly except for the stray vowel)--while I've seen him go after people for no reason (often me) in games, and have seen him drop seeds to see what grows, I've also seen him as mafia pretend to do this--pretty much what he's claimed 3J has done. Perhaps my lens is colored by the fact that I'm reading 3J as civ, and considering that mafia are going to try for lynching civs, particularly in a 1 baddie team game.

[speedchuck]

I'm sure Scum Epi would go after JJJ first. Because he's such an easy townie to lynch.

[DFaraday]

If anyone is able to contact Dave outside of the site, that would be great. I don't believe he's aware the game has started.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I get all that.

My point was that if everybody realizes your bullshit is...well, bullshit, they're going to treat it as such.

I agree. And I think people treating bullshit as bullshit can be read for alignment. I also think the target of the bullshit (in this case Kyle) is going to be confronted with additional challenge in handling that bullshit -- and people will react to his handling of it. That's even more readable.

Are there other ways to generate content? Sure, probably. When the thread features 10-15 empty posts about the theme which cannot be called suspicious or not suspicious however, someone has to make something up. Someone can make up a civilian read (JJJ on Tink re: Vocaroo 2), someone can bring out mechanical discourse, someone can fake a slip, someone can accuse someone else based on bullshit, etc. I decided to provoke someone.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm sure Scum Epi would go after JJJ first. Because he's such an easy townie to lynch.

Have you met Epignosis?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm sure Scum Epi would go after JJJ first. Because he's such an easy townie to lynch.

Have you met Epignosis?

Haha, this all looks very familiar.

[Epignosis]

I'm sure Scum Epi would go after JJJ first. Because he's such an easy townie to lynch.

Have you met Epignosis?

Holy hell, that's basically what I'm accusing you of now.

[speedchuck]

I'm sure Scum Epi would go after JJJ first. Because he's such an easy townie to lynch.

Have you met Epignosis?

yeah man

[speedchuck]

Point taken, though, I guess. I'm not going to read that game to see how hard he stuck it.

[Kylemii]

--his reaction rings true with what I remember his reaction being in general when accused in any way--

i haven't improved at all since then, have i

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Point taken, though, I guess. I'm not going to read that game to see how hard he stuck it.

Let me help.

The following posts are all from the RED vs. BLUE game (wherein Epignosis was mafia and I was a civilian). They should be read for the sake of comparison and contrast. Do not confuse them with the present game.

Spoiler: show

Day 1 cannot arrive soon enough.

Aside from the poll itself, what does Day 1 offer that Day 0 does not?

Players playing.

You must be new here.

Epignosis knows how slow these games can move early on if they're not pushed. He discredited my effort to push that thread.

3J is my top suspect. He has projected an eagerness, which I expect, but it's empty. It's void. It looks productive, but it isn't.

Epignosis has no qualms with pushing my buttons as a bad guy. He loves the challenge.

3J is my top suspect.

What else is new.

He has projected an eagerness, which I expect, but it's empty. It's void. It looks productive, but it isn't.

True productivity on Day 0 is nearly impossible. That doesn't stop me from trying. Produce something better or kiss my ass.

I'm going to let you do your thing. If you're good, we'll end up burying the thread for nothing (except good times). If you're bad, then it's not like I can convince anybody to lynch you this early anyway. Am I correct that you've never been lynched on The Syndicate?

If there's any difference, one could say it's this. He did just pledge not to vote for me in this game though.

Everyone else: I don't expect you to read our text walls. Once we've had our chat and I am satisfied with whatever conclusion I come to I'll summarize it.

My suspicion of you has grown, sir. Why wouldn't you expect people to read what you've posted and form their own opinions and instead rely on your summary?

I correctly accuse Epignosis of leaving empty smears against me

Epignosis -- S^M -- I am not alarmed by his more docile approach so far, given what happened in Triskaidekaphobia (he and I devoured an entire day phase in a futile town/town death match). I'd still like to know what I have posted that he feels lacks a genuine eagerness or otherwise presents a false eagerness. Without an answer to that query I am still unable to feel better about his early move against me.

In what context would you ever feel good about any move against you?

It would never "please" me, but it might make me think my accuser is town depending upon the delivery of the accusation and the circumstances.

Why aren't you just pointing to some posts? How many times do I have to ask?

I said I wasn't going to bother with it this early. Stop pestering me. If my mind doesn't change, I'll let you know when I lead the masses against you. In the meantime, you just keep doing what you're doing.

He wimped out at the end of Day 1.

The most pressing question emerging from this then would be: Epignosis, why won't you be voting for me today?

[LoRab]

--his reaction rings true with what I remember his reaction being in general when accused in any way--

i haven't improved at all since then, have i

Haven't played with you enough to know, lol. But it's not a bad thing that you react that way. It's just who you are.

[Epignosis]

The most pressing question emerging from this then would be: Epignosis, why won't you be voting for me today?

Because you're a shitty Day 1 lynch.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The most pressing question emerging from this then would be: Epignosis, why won't you be voting for me today?

Because you're a shitty Day 1 lynch.

Why?

[Epignosis]

The most pressing question emerging from this then would be: Epignosis, why won't you be voting for me today?

Because you're a shitty Day 1 lynch.

Why?

Now you're just fishing for compliments.

Because if you are good, then that's an active, vocal, passionate mafia-hunter gone, one who didn't even get a real chance to catch anybody.

And if you are bad, then that's an active, vocal, passionate mafia member who will be interacting thoroughly with his teammates.

[Marmot]

The most pressing question emerging from this then would be: Epignosis, why won't you be voting for me today?

Because you're a shitty Day 1 lynch.

So?

I disagree that any player should get an automatic pass on Day 1, just because they're a shitty lynch.

[Long Con]

The most pressing question emerging from this then would be: Epignosis, why won't you be voting for me today?

Because you're a shitty Day 1 lynch.

Why?

Now you're just fishing for compliments.

Because if you are good, then that's an active, vocal, passionate mafia-hunter gone, one who didn't even get a real chance to catch anybody.

And if you are bad, then that's an active, vocal, passionate mafia member who will be interacting thoroughly with his teammates.

Also, it's irksome to kill the most prolific player. Unless their post count is high due to frantic defense.

[Kylemii]

I think we should expand the lynch pool a little.

I hate to stoke his ego but, despite everything else, Jay is still enough of an asset when he's civ that I think he warrants more than a day of critique before lynching.

Even if we do end up lynching him I think it would be healthy to use this time to discuss a few more players as well.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The most pressing question emerging from this then would be: Epignosis, why won't you be voting for me today?

Because you're a shitty Day 1 lynch.

Why?

Now you're just fishing for compliments.

Because if you are good, then that's an active, vocal, passionate mafia-hunter gone, one who didn't even get a real chance to catch anybody.

And if you are bad, then that's an active, vocal, passionate mafia member who will be interacting thoroughly with his teammates.

You always give people shit for being afraid to lynch me. Are you afraid to lynch me?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

OK....I'm not seeing 3J as bad--I'm seeing his typical civ game. I'm also not seeing Kyle as bad--his reaction rings true with what I remember his reaction being in general when accused in any way--I'm null on him. I could see Epi being bad (despite his use of Hebrew in a post, and almost spelling it correctly except for the stray vowel)--while I've seen him go after people for no reason (often me) in games, and have seen him drop seeds to see what grows, I've also seen him as mafia pretend to do this--pretty much what he's claimed 3J has done. Perhaps my lens is colored by the fact that I'm reading 3J as civ, and considering that mafia are going to try for lynching civs, particularly in a 1 baddie team game.

Can you recall a previous game you played with Kyle that informs your perception of him now?