Steely Dan Mafia [ENDGAME]

[juliets]

Ugh. Here's the thing. Jack is bad.

So, knowing Jack is bad, I just think back to these posts:

But really though how can niju not be bad

Cause Juliets/Jay/Jack/Mac has a nicer ring to it.

Niju only makes sense with Juliets like Ninjuliets and that’s a better hydra name anyhow.

MacDougall and Jackofhearts2005

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Yay I love tearing apart silly "fishing for reaction" day 0 arguments.

Yet here you are with zero reads. What have you accomplished?

What is this, a job interview?

I don't have to accomplish shit.

This feels fake and reinforces DDL/Jay not w/w.

I felt quite the opposite to this Jack. It's a perfectly natural reaction from DDL to Jay spew.

Mac gave Jack shit about his DDL read. This doesn't mean much to me.

Spoiler: show

Current gut read after having caught up

Jack - bad
Jay - bad
Dunya - Town
Luna - Town
Mata - Town
Nova - Town
Juliets - slight bad lean
Speed - Town
Nutella - rude

Everyone else is null.

I'd like to hear more about your Jay and Jack suspicions.

Generic prod about Jack and I. This doesn't mean much to me.

Spoiler: show

Yay I love tearing apart silly "fishing for reaction" day 0 arguments.

Yet here you are with zero reads. What have you accomplished?

What is this, a job interview?

I don't have to accomplish shit.

This feels fake and reinforces DDL/Jay not w/w.

Looping back around on this one I questioned before, I got the distinctly opposite impression from reading that DDL post. It's exactly how I would have felt. Don't like that we're not on the same page in this game Jack. My face has scrunched up in confusion from several of your posts.

Mac brought this out again. He's clearly shading Jack. It isn't substantial pressure. I'm not moved.

Mac sticks Jack in the red pile in his rainbow -- this seems extreme given the soft accusations preceding it. I think Mac felt like he needed another red and just figured Jack was the best fit. That's decent for Jack. Mac griped about anime gifs too as if that matters.

Spoiler: show

Hahahaha - will nova and Mac be on the same side? Will they both win or lose? OR will one of them move ahead in the only game that counts?

Does Juliets know the answers to some of these questions?

OOOOooof sPiCy


Any major dude will tell you

Does anyone think that nutella found this to be spicy?

I mean if Juliets knows one of them will win, she knows Mac and Nova aren’t the same alignment. That would make her mafia and since the accusation comes from Nova, Mac mafia as well.

Saying Mac and Juliets have w/w equity right out of the gate is pretty spicy imo.

Jack thinks juliets/Mac is spicy but doesn't necessarily agree with it.

Spoiler: show

We weren’t talking about Juliets. We were talking about Nutella’s reaction to Nova talking about Juliets.

I'm talking about how other people view a dialogue, not its literal nature. There's often a stark difference.

And I’m talking about Daisy being sensitive to discussion about Juliets to the point where she’s scumreading stuff that isn’t even about Juliets, stuff that is explicitly as much about Mac and she didn’t even mention Mac.

Jack is cranky that Spacedaisy didn't mention Mac and ties that into his theory about her and juliets. I think Mac is an incidental piece here and not meaningful. There's a bunch of other shit about this that I am not going to include.

Spoiler: show

Yet here you are with zero reads. What have you accomplished?

What is this, a job interview?

I don't have to accomplish shit.

This feels fake and reinforces DDL/Jay not w/w.

Looping back around on this one I questioned before, I got the distinctly opposite impression from reading that DDL post. It's exactly how I would have felt. Don't like that we're not on the same page in this game Jack. My face has scrunched up in confusion from several of your posts.

If it makes you feel better, I’ve liked most of DDL’s posts since then.

Jack's response to Mac's gripe was weak, so it's a soft exchange on both sides. That's not my favorite thing. More

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: MacDougall] aubergine

why would town mac give dunya an easy day green pass just because she hasn't said something "scummy"? other people have found things scummy in what i've said. i don't feel you're being genuine and the sarcasm on me was lost.

i'm not even here to play my hardest civ game, so don't tell me my "civ" is shining through. explain what gave you good vibes about me or this becomes as bad as elohcin's "green" to luna that everyone took issue with imo.

“Mac’s not getting lynched today.”

Oh?

Jack questions whether one of my beefs with Mac is spicy -- okay

Spoiler: show

The reason I ask is this:

When there is a highly active Day 1, and a variety of reads/wagons/initiatives are revolving around the discussion without a good inspiration for confidence (I think we're close to that now), lynching a less-active player is usually a good idea. As it stands my strongest suspicion is on MacDougall. I acknowledge that it isn't rock solid shite, but I haven't seen a single rock solid case in this thread yet. Refer to the last 25% of the video in my signature for more information.

Are you classifying Mac as less active?

This is a bit defensive implicitly.

Spoiler: show

Go on and vote Mac, Daisy.

I have not felt Mac was bad. Like at all. I’d be more inclined to vote nutella, but I don’t see good reason for that either except for jumping on nova’s joke which I didn’t think she was serious about originally.

*scribbles aggressively*

This might be a nice moment. I don't care much that Jack challenged Daisy to vote Mac specifically, but rather that it seems to me that Jack's focus genuinely is on Daisy -- this would indicate he isn't as concerned with Mac's demise as he is with Daisy's activity (not the case if he's Mac's teammate).

Spoiler: show

Last chance for me: who will vote Neverwhere?

Over Mac and Nutella? Yeah.

I don't really care that Jack moved his vote with me here. It was never likely to result in a lynch; it was a last-second why-not thing.

~~~

Conclusion: It's a dirty record at times with Jack. It seems like it always is. He plays in a manner which inherently attracts dirt, to his credit. He should answer to the gripes that exist here. Gun to my head, he's not Mac's teammate.

MacDougall and juliets

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

I am trying to make heads or tails of this mac juliets weirdness and nope.

If the weirdness was true I'd expect more dissociative effort than this.

Spoiler: show

Mac, any reads you have to share would be appreciated.

k

Spoiler: show

I like juliets. I feel like she is involved more so than usual. I am not entirely sure why that would be but I don't think it is in a bad way and I don't really want to discourage it. I'd give her a light green skittle (if I had skittles to give).

This read was more transparently fake, because it was based on a non-existent observation -- that juliets was "more involved than usual". I think Mac had established an agenda for pocketing in this game, so this could be another example. I can't say I care for the overt fakeness though.

The read was only worth a light green in the rainbow list. Fart.

Spoiler: show

Hahahaha - will nova and Mac be on the same side? Will they both win or lose? OR will one of them move ahead in the only game that counts?

SPICY.

I don't care about this.

Spoiler: show

Jay, what is the reason you think Mac hasn't given a definitive read on you? I'm trying to see how that makes him potentially bad.

lots of linki

juliets sought better understanding of my suspicion of Mac. I have no beef with that.

Spoiler: show

What isn't genuine about his civilian reads? The DDL one was something prompted from their interactions, and felt like natural conversation especially considering its context (The Firefly game).

He wrote a novella to explain why he read DDL as a civilian. I don't believe that was necessary, and I don't believe that's how MacDougall operates. He was similar in his handling of dunya. He technically called me light green, but I haven't the faintest idea why -- his read on me doesn't exist. He said he liked juliets because she is "more involved than usual" (no she isn't?). He loved Kites for his big reads post, which is such an easy thing to say.

Bleh.

Ok here's what I see. I initially liked his posts about DDL and I really liked his reads wall (even tho I didn't agree with everything) because he was explaining why he had the reads he did. Looking back over it though what strikes me is he never does this. He usually just throws out reads with no backup whatsoever and when people question him he ignores it or responds negatively. But is this indicative of a bad Mac or just a style change? I need to look at a bad Mac game, anyone know a recent one?

lots of linki

This post follows a rather typical formula that is sometimes ugly:

I liked _____ before, but now I will say something in support of your suspicion of _____

At face value I don't care for that. I do appreciate though that juliets's gripe was unique to her: that Mac's reads list was plain off-meta regardless of authenticity.

~~~

Conclusion: I think a case can be made against juliets. I don't really want to though. I don't struggle to separate her from Mac and the claim remains (I believe her).

So does Jack have a big enough ego to post his team out in the open to laugh away the WIFOM, or does Jack try to plant a seed for deception with an attempt to drag down two well-regarded non-baddies? 'Cuz Juliets/Jay/Jack/Mac looks believable based on my initial musings, but what would further research show? Did JJJ trigger juliets' stump claim? If so, was that part of a cool plan?

Hopefully after tonight I'll glean more from a nice reread.

What triggered my claim was time. It was 18 minutes after 4, people were voting for me, nutella was asking people to move to me, and I didn't think I had much choice. Jay asking me to talk to him was a part of the whole thing but not the trigger.

linki DDL, what do you mean the water turned to cherry wine?

[juliets]

Sorry [mention]Dragon D. Luffy[/mention] I didn't alert you for that question. What does water turned to cherry wine mean?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

You are poking at one post, but I look at all is posts and I see someone who seems to actually be trying to get reads on people. I don’t think looking at that one post determines a person entirely. I was more moved slightly by your case that he is afraid of you. But this is Mac, when has Mac ever seemed afraid of anything? He dgaf.

Alright, I just don’t give a shit right now. I’m sleep deprived, annoyed and have to go to the airport right now. So

[VOTE: Mac] aubergine

I hope you’re right Jay

Defends Mac, then puts a vote on him after posting a lot of intejections, and puts the blame on Jay. Feels a bit forced, though I trust she is really sleep deprived.

Spoiler: show

Jay, what is the reason you think Mac hasn't given a definitive read on you? I'm trying to see how that makes him potentially bad.

lots of linki

linki - Jay where do you see me struggling to keep up? I just got back from the gym if it's some recent thing.

It's right now. You're a little slow to the posting trigger. If you just got home then do your thing, and I'll see how it goes.

Ok, and I am going to read Mac now so I will be slow to the posting trigger during that too.

What isn't genuine about his civilian reads? The DDL one was something prompted from their interactions, and felt like natural conversation especially considering its context (The Firefly game).

He wrote a novella to explain why he read DDL as a civilian. I don't believe that was necessary, and I don't believe that's how MacDougall operates. He was similar in his handling of dunya. He technically called me light green, but I haven't the faintest idea why -- his read on me doesn't exist. He said he liked juliets because she is "more involved than usual" (no she isn't?). He loved Kites for his big reads post, which is such an easy thing to say.

Bleh.

Ok here's what I see. I initially liked his posts about DDL and I really liked his reads wall (even tho I didn't agree with everything) because he was explaining why he had the reads he did. Looking back over it though what strikes me is he never does this. He usually just throws out reads with no backup whatsoever and when people question him he ignores it or responds negatively. But is this indicative of a bad Mac or just a style change? I need to look at a bad Mac game, anyone know a recent one?

lots of linki

juliets I need you to talk with me. I am very nearly out of time, and I will have no control over what happens in here after class starts.

Jay sorry I was doing something else. I think Daisy's reason for voting me is shit but I think it's because she has not played with me as much recently. I think Jack's theory about Daisy is shit because it's clear as day she wan't defending me. I think Daisy is town, I think Jack is bad. I've forgotten who the other person is you asked for my read on.

linki

nutella. They're the three who've voted for you.

nutella is coming across less hostile than I read her yesterday and she has backed off thinking that silly post was me being bad. I'm ready to move off of her.

I need to figure out where I want to move my vote.

Me too.

Jackofhearts2005 Spacedaisy Matahari juliets novaselinenever pls vote for mac

nutella my vote won't be on you when this ends. I am considering Mac.

Ok I changed my vote to Mac. I feel like I should be on Jack but there's no one else feeling that.

This has to be the longest decision process ever. She asks what's up about Mac, ISOs him, decides he's cool. Asks for past games of him, then stays silent until later decides she needs to leave the nutella wagon. After a bit more influence she jumps on it, while expressing she'd rather lynch Jack.

If you are bad and need to bus your teammate without making it easy but doesn't want to outright oppose it, the above is how you can do it.

novaselinenever, lemme get a full reads list, whether a rainbow or whatever.

Juliets
Spacedaisy
Dragon D. Luffy
Matahari
Kites
Lunalee
nijuukyugou
Jackofhearts2005
leetic
dunya
Jay
Long Con
Elochin
MacDougall
Neverwhere
speedchuck
nutella

What's the deal with Mac? I cooled off on him a whole lot after his presence this morning. Lot of good stuff from him.

I don't see what y'all see on Mac. At least not anymore.

Feels to me like it revolves mostly about how he's handling you (looking at you Dunya and Jay) rather than his overall play.

Good job guys! Dude had me fooled with his efforts today, I should have continued tunneling

Has Mac on orange. Later the Mac wagon becomes a thing and nova decides it's not cool anymore. Tries to argue Mac's overall play is not bad and people are being biased. Mac gets lynched and he posts "good job, civs! He had me fooled!"

Meh.

I’ll go nutella, then, simply because she has more votes besides Mac, and because Mac votes are apparently last minute, which, as you’ve said, is usually a mafia move.

Sorry, y’all - it’s been such a long time since I last played that I’m not used to checking or thinking about checking the thread.

I understand hating on CFDs. I'm not really sure they are a mafia move though. I don't feel this logic is coming from an honest place.

/////////////////////////

There is scum among those. All of those posts can be made by townies, but they also ilustrate ways Mac's buddies could deal with his lynch.

[Long Con]

LOL

Ask Steely Dan what it means. It means two nights; Jack bad.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Sorry @Dragon D. Luffy I didn't alert you for that question. What does water turned to cherry wine mean?

Uhhh... Jesus?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I forgot to put a title on the big post above. This was just a list of people who pinged me as I was catching up on Day 1.

[juliets]

Jay, what is the reason you think Mac hasn't given a definitive read on you? I'm trying to see how that makes him potentially bad.

lots of linki

linki - Jay where do you see me struggling to keep up? I just got back from the gym if it's some recent thing.

It's right now. You're a little slow to the posting trigger. If you just got home then do your thing, and I'll see how it goes.

Ok, and I am going to read Mac now so I will be slow to the posting trigger during that too.

What isn't genuine about his civilian reads? The DDL one was something prompted from their interactions, and felt like natural conversation especially considering its context (The Firefly game).

He wrote a novella to explain why he read DDL as a civilian. I don't believe that was necessary, and I don't believe that's how MacDougall operates. He was similar in his handling of dunya. He technically called me light green, but I haven't the faintest idea why -- his read on me doesn't exist. He said he liked juliets because she is "more involved than usual" (no she isn't?). He loved Kites for his big reads post, which is such an easy thing to say.

Bleh.

Ok here's what I see. I initially liked his posts about DDL and I really liked his reads wall (even tho I didn't agree with everything) because he was explaining why he had the reads he did. Looking back over it though what strikes me is he never does this. He usually just throws out reads with no backup whatsoever and when people question him he ignores it or responds negatively. But is this indicative of a bad Mac or just a style change? I need to look at a bad Mac game, anyone know a recent one?

lots of linki

juliets I need you to talk with me. I am very nearly out of time, and I will have no control over what happens in here after class starts.

Jay sorry I was doing something else. I think Daisy's reason for voting me is shit but I think it's because she has not played with me as much recently. I think Jack's theory about Daisy is shit because it's clear as day she wan't defending me. I think Daisy is town, I think Jack is bad. I've forgotten who the other person is you asked for my read on.

linki

nutella. They're the three who've voted for you.

nutella is coming across less hostile than I read her yesterday and she has backed off thinking that silly post was me being bad. I'm ready to move off of her.

I need to figure out where I want to move my vote.

Me too.

Jackofhearts2005 Spacedaisy Matahari juliets novaselinenever pls vote for mac

nutella my vote won't be on you when this ends. I am considering Mac.

Ok I changed my vote to Mac. I feel like I should be on Jack but there's no one else feeling that.

This has to be the longest decision process ever. She asks what's up about Mac, ISOs him, decides he's cool. Asks for past games of him, then stays silent until later decides she needs to leave the nutella wagon. After a bit more influence she jumps on it, while expressing she'd rather lynch Jack.

If you are bad and need to bus your teammate without making it easy but doesn't want to outright oppose it, the above is how you can do it.

Yes it was a long decision making process. That is typical of me. I like to think through all the possibilities and possible consequences both positive and negative.

[novaselinenever]

I'll say it again, I cooled off on Mac before his lynch became a thing. He had 1 vote on him at the time, and my handling of him clearly changed way before that when he wasn't even on a radar. I even said "he played mafia the right way" lol, shame on me.

[novaselinenever]

[mention]Long Con[/mention] You a cop?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Very early in game, I thought I saw a subtle connection between DDL and Nova. Not indicating good or bad, just kind of having civil conversation, in and around lots of Jay posts. I thought it might develop into something indicating something, but it stopped after the thread got so busy. I also thought I saw a connection between Juliet’s and Jay, a bit later, but I didn’t see the connection with Jack that someone else brought up. Anyway, early stuff got dropped with more recent stuff.

DDL no read, not a boat rocker?
Dunya town
Elohcin leaning bad, I don’t think her posts felt genuine, but her reaction to the lynch was more important. I remember in Gossip Girl, I wasn’t really crazy about the way the lynches were handled, but I came around to appreciating it. Elohcin played that game but she didn’t get upset at all over the last minute vote switching. Her reaction today felt personal.

I’ll be back in a few with more.

I've seen Eloh complain on discord how she hates the way current mafia is played.

Her reaction here is consistent with that.

Not saying she couldn't fake it, but it's feasible for a civ Eloh to do.

[juliets]

Things I’d like to know, but think it’s against rules to ask:

So far the roles we’ve seen have a Steely Dan song title. I’m trying to figure out which song titles match the current role claims.

I don't see that my role name matches my role description - maybe I'm missing something though. I could share my role name unless people think it's better I hold back in case someone else claims it.

[Long Con]

Things I’d like to know, but think it’s against rules to ask:

So far the roles we’ve seen have a Steely Dan song title. I’m trying to figure out which song titles match the current role claims.

I don't see that my role name matches my role description - maybe I'm missing something though. I could share my role name unless people think it's better I hold back in case someone else claims it.

I think that the title-role connections are tenuous at best.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I think LC and niju would be easy targets for mafia. Honestly, I think they are civs who just aren't paying attention to a damn thing. They are the kind of civs this game that keep civs from winning.

I'm going to be working most of today. I'll probably only be back come Day 2

Why do you think they’re civs?

I think they would be here and paying more attention if they were bad. Niju would be making at least one meaningful post. She would be trying instead of forgetting. I have been in her shoes - civ, busy, and forgetting I am even playing mafia. I have never forgotten I am playing when I am mafia. LC is one of the syndicate's original hard core players. Maybe things have changed for him, but I don't think he would sign up to play and be this lazy if he were bad.

You mean niju's vote is too bad to be bad.

I could see that.

[Long Con]

@Long Con You a cop?

More or less

[juliets]

[mention]Long Con[/mention] would you say you are 100% sure Jack is bad?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Indeed, my Neverwhere wagon might be the best evidence that I am a civilian. Break through the immediate instinctive barrier of WIFOM and consider these points:

If I am Mac's teammate, I can bus him or I can save him.

If I am going to bus him, I don't squirm around about it. I annihilate him. I make it my personal crusade and absorb maximum credit.

If I am going to save him, I don't randomly reverse my take on nutella and then invent a third wagon that is unlikely to take off at the last minute. I annihilate nutella.

Ok so... you are arguing that what you do as mafia is very different from what I see you doing as a civ.

When you are a civ you never anihilate people. You go around suspects a lot before settling down at EoD, even if you were the one who started the wagon to begin with.

Then you say you do different as a baddie... but then the problem is that I'd expect a veteran player like you to make a more conscious effort to make your baddie meta similar to the civ one. I'm not really buying that you'd let your baddie style be so obviously different from the civ one. We would read you a lot more easily if it was.

This is WIFOM of course, but I still think it makes sense.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Ok I've done reading page 28. Will catch up with the rest later.

[Long Con]

@Long Con would you say you are 100% sure Jack is bad?

Yes.

[juliets]

Ok great, thanks LC.

[Elohcin]

I am not sure what I think of LC now. Why would he come out and say he is 100% sure Jack is bad. If he is telling the truth and he can determine the alignment of a player as his power, then why give up his life (of course Mafia would kill him now, right?). There are still other mafia left. Wouldn't he want to be a little more vague and keep him life so he can keep playing and keep helping the civs catch baddies? Couldn't he put a little more effort in and build a case on Jack and get us to follow? I just don't know. I am confused.

[Elohcin]

@juliets, what do you think of this? Do you trust it?

[juliets]

@juliets, what do you think of this? Do you trust it?

Well, I have mixed feelings. Sometimes it's worth sacrificing yourself to give the civs another mafia but I feel conflicted as to whether this is the best time to do that. On the other hand he has to know if we lynch Jack and Jack is good we lynch him next. I need to let this sink in and see if I can think of any reason that isn't coming to mind right now why he would do this if he was bad.

[Elohcin]

thanks [mention]juliets[/mention]

[speedchuck]

Neverwhere is bad

Is this another claim or just a strong read?

[speedchuck]

I am not sure what I think of LC now. Why would he come out and say he is 100% sure Jack is bad. If he is telling the truth and he can determine the alignment of a player as his power, then why give up his life (of course Mafia would kill him now, right?). There are still other mafia left. Wouldn't he want to be a little more vague and keep him life so he can keep playing and keep helping the civs catch baddies? Couldn't he put a little more effort in and build a case on Jack and get us to follow? I just don't know. I am confused.

Based on the claim, I'd say his role is obscenely difficult to nab a baddie with and that he got lucky. "Water turned to wine twice" or two nights in a row. It took two nights of luck for him to catch Jack.
That's like having a maybe-it-works-every-other-night cop. Not really worth protecting that slim-to-none possibility of another success instead of taking out a deepwolf leader.

Also, it would take a ton of time to case Jack in any convincing way, if it is possible to do so, and Long Con hasn't exactly been a top poster. Easier to just hand his stroke of luck over to town and see what happens.

[Long Con]

[speedchuck]

[dunya]

holy shit, good job long con!

if there is a vig among us, take mr. ofhearts out immediately. go.

and i'm with speedchuck on this; long con wouldn't lie. he has nothing to gain and everything to lose especially when the claim was made at the start of another night. and if i had an investigative role, i'd out myself when i hit gold with someone if i don't have enough power to case them. i think almost everyone had jack in their town pile. long con certified town.

[dunya]

now let's start thinking who is compatible with mac and jack before the end of this night.

[dunya]

Neverwhere is bad

Is this another claim or just a strong read?

[mention]novaselinenever[/mention] answer pls.

[dunya]

juliets, what do you think of this? Do you trust it?

Well, I have mixed feelings. Sometimes it's worth sacrificing yourself to give the civs another mafia but I feel conflicted as to whether this is the best time to do that. On the other hand he has to know if we lynch Jack and Jack is good we lynch him next. I need to let this sink in and see if I can think of any reason that isn't coming to mind right now why he would do this if he was bad.

why would jack sacrifice himself for long con? surely long con would have sacrificed himself for jack who is already deep into the game and our town lists. i think that is highly unlikely.

[dunya]

This is WIFOM of course, but I still think it makes sense.

did you take a look at some of my concerns with you? i didn't have time to finish your ISO. but you're actually one of my biggest suspects.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

This is WIFOM of course, but I still think it makes sense.

did you take a look at some of my concerns with you? i didn't have time to finish your ISO. but you're actually one of my biggest suspects.

No, still two pages ahead of where I am

[juliets]

juliets, what do you think of this? Do you trust it?

Well, I have mixed feelings. Sometimes it's worth sacrificing yourself to give the civs another mafia but I feel conflicted as to whether this is the best time to do that. On the other hand he has to know if we lynch Jack and Jack is good we lynch him next. I need to let this sink in and see if I can think of any reason that isn't coming to mind right now why he would do this if he was bad.

why would jack sacrifice himself for long con? surely long con would have sacrificed himself for jack who is already deep into the game and our town lists. i think that is highly unlikely.

Wait, I don't understand what you're saying. I don't think Jack would sacrifice himself for LC. I was saying LC might be sacrificing himself as a civ in order to give us a mafia (Jack).

[JaggedJimmyJay]

So, knowing Jack is bad, I just think back to these posts:

Credit to Jack for playing good Mafia, assuming your check thingy holds true. If you'll refer to my notion that "Jack's way of playing inherently draws dirt" -- it's something that tends to bear itself out when I interactive analyses of him in most games. It always seems as though he emerges from those with something negative on his record, civilian or not, because he plays fast and doesn't concern himself with immediate consequences (to his credit). A mafioso Jack in this game should be lauded for replicating that effectively.

Nice grab regardless, Longest of Cons. I don't really grasp what "water to wine" refers to with respect to a role ability, but whatever.

[dunya]

Yay I love tearing apart silly "fishing for reaction" day 0 arguments.

Yet here you are with zero reads. What have you accomplished?

What is this, a job interview?

I don't have to accomplish shit.

This feels fake and reinforces DDL/Jay not w/w.

Jack reels off 12 posts in quick succession. Only one read exists in that set, and it is conditional crud: “DDL and Jay not both bad”

Poop

You’re poop.

Jack/Jay/DDL/MacDougall mafia team?

Dragon D. Luffy
dunya
juliets
Kites
novaselinenever
speedchuck

Long Con
reywaS

Elochin
Jackofhearts2005
leetic
Lunalee
MacDougall
Matahari
Neverwhere
nijuukyugou
nutella
Spacedaisy

Shine brighter, civilians.

Why is DDL at the top of your list?

a question that jay answered and was never followed up by jack.

Yet here you are with zero reads. What have you accomplished?

What is this, a job interview?

I don't have to accomplish shit.

This feels fake and reinforces DDL/Jay not w/w.

This confused me. Can you explain what you mean?

It’s an overreaction. Feels fake. I don’t think DDL overreacts to his own teammate like this.

So you think DDL is bad but Jay is not, am I understanding correctly?

I suspect DDL more than I suspect Jay. I’m saying if either ever flips wolf, I’m trusting the other.

this is just so pingy.

jack kinda drifted from all that ddl/jay mess by getting caught up and focused on juliets/spacedaisy (indeed, the effort that made me most townread him cos i didn't think mafia would be so obnoxiously stubborn and set at making a huge misunderstanding and accusation out of literally....nothing).

I suspect DDL more than I suspect Jay. I’m saying if either ever flips wolf, I’m trusting the other.

are you saying you suspect both of them to varying degrees then?

linki: @Matahari it means wolf/wolf

I guess. I really shouldn’t feel better about Jay for back and forth that ends with him putting my top scumreads as his top townreads but I do.

i hate ddl and jay the most right now. coupled with my earlier suspicions of ddl, he's my numero 1 suspect.

[dunya]

juliets, what do you think of this? Do you trust it?

Well, I have mixed feelings. Sometimes it's worth sacrificing yourself to give the civs another mafia but I feel conflicted as to whether this is the best time to do that. On the other hand he has to know if we lynch Jack and Jack is good we lynch him next. I need to let this sink in and see if I can think of any reason that isn't coming to mind right now why he would do this if he was bad.

why would jack sacrifice himself for long con? surely long con would have sacrificed himself for jack who is already deep into the game and our town lists. i think that is highly unlikely.

Wait, I don't understand what you're saying. I don't think Jack would sacrifice himself for LC. I was saying LC might be sacrificing himself as a civ in order to give us a mafia (Jack).

oh sorry, i misread what you were saying. i thought you were saying mafia long con decided to sacrifice mafia jack to give us mafia and infuse himself as a civ in the game.

[juliets]

juliets, what do you think of this? Do you trust it?

Well, I have mixed feelings. Sometimes it's worth sacrificing yourself to give the civs another mafia but I feel conflicted as to whether this is the best time to do that. On the other hand he has to know if we lynch Jack and Jack is good we lynch him next. I need to let this sink in and see if I can think of any reason that isn't coming to mind right now why he would do this if he was bad.

why would jack sacrifice himself for long con? surely long con would have sacrificed himself for jack who is already deep into the game and our town lists. i think that is highly unlikely.

Wait, I don't understand what you're saying. I don't think Jack would sacrifice himself for LC. I was saying LC might be sacrificing himself as a civ in order to give us a mafia (Jack).

oh sorry, i misread what you were saying. i thought you were saying mafia long con decided to sacrifice mafia jack to give us mafia and infuse himself as a civ in the game.

Oh no, actually I didn't even think of that until I was just in the shower and I decided it was too outlandish to be what is happening. I can't see a good reason LC would do this if bad so I believe him.

[dunya]

Yay I love tearing apart silly "fishing for reaction" day 0 arguments.

Yet here you are with zero reads. What have you accomplished?

What is this, a job interview?

I don't have to accomplish shit.

This feels fake and reinforces DDL/Jay not w/w.

I felt quite the opposite to this Jack. It's a perfectly natural reaction from DDL to Jay spew.

To what?

macdougall and jack visibly disagreeing on how to read ddl and his approach to jay itt.

Yay I love tearing apart silly "fishing for reaction" day 0 arguments.

Yet here you are with zero reads. What have you accomplished?

What is this, a job interview?

I don't have to accomplish shit.

This feels fake and reinforces DDL/Jay not w/w.

Looping back around on this one I questioned before, I got the distinctly opposite impression from reading that DDL post. It's exactly how I would have felt. Don't like that we're not on the same page in this game Jack. My face has scrunched up in confusion from several of your posts.

If it makes you feel better, I’ve liked most of DDL’s posts since then.

.........DDL bad.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't want to spend a great deal of time talking about my meta, DDL, because I absolutely don't care. I will be brief:

Ok so... you are arguing that what you do as mafia is very different from what I see you doing as a civ.

When you are a civ you never anihilate people. You go around suspects a lot before settling down at EoD, even if you were the one who started the wagon to begin with.

I think you underestimate my civilian behavior. I can be careful, I can be understanding, and I can always change my mind. It is not a rarity though for me to commit a huge portion of my hunting resources to destroying someone though. That's what I mean when I say "annihilate". Am I more forgiving as a civilian than as a mafioso? Probably yes. Mafia me wants mislynches and knows where to get them. Civilian me wants proper lynches and doesn't know where to get them.

Then you say you do different as a baddie... but then the problem is that I'd expect a veteran player like you to make a more conscious effort to make your baddie meta similar to the civ one. I'm not really buying that you'd let your baddie style be so obviously different from the civ one. We would read you a lot more easily if it was.

This is WIFOM of course, but I still think it makes sense.

A separate point: replicating my civilian self is generally not a priority for me when I am aligned with the mafia. There are a number of reasons for that which are hardly relevant to the present dialogue. I will summarize:

- Being too much like my civilian self actively harms my own team, because my civilian play is all about constructing a climate that interferes with mafia strategy
- Often it is the very effort to replicate a meta which gets people caught
- In my experience, most people don't see the differences anyway. Maybe you'd see this one; most people wouldn't. Meta accusations are weak and easy to deflect.

[dunya]

MacDougall and Dragon D. Luffy

Spoiler: show

Yay I love tearing apart silly "fishing for reaction" day 0 arguments.

Yet here you are with zero reads. What have you accomplished?

What is this, a job interview?

I don't have to accomplish shit.

This feels fake and reinforces DDL/Jay not w/w.

I felt quite the opposite to this Jack. It's a perfectly natural reaction from DDL to Jay spew.

Mac stood in DDL's defense when Jack said he felt fake. It's certainly white-knighting. The meaning of that will be easier to judge as I observe the trend that I know will develop.

Spoiler: show

I feel some of the people townreading me are bad. At least one of them

Feels like one of those games where I manage to post in a very obvious civ way which convinces people, but baddies already noticed that and are blending in.

I might get NKd soon.

I feel like I've been able to civ read you better lately. Things that I used to incorrectly read you as Mafia for I now see as civ traits. Tbh it was mostly my cynicism because I used to read you bad for having strong insights that I chalked up to TMI but I've come to realise that we sort of see the game similarly. The way that I have been handling our interactions in games lately is a lot of the reason I feel my civilian game has improved. That and taking a back seat more. I realised that even though I have strong insight into scum, that brute forcing my opinions into the thread was counterintuitive to civilian wins and started playing more cerebrally. Less plaudits but stronger results. Only took me 8 years.

DDL suggested there might be a mafioso among the people reading him as a civilian. He did not specifically name Mac, but Mac nonetheless felt the need to respond. This is severe over-justification, and I think it's nice for DDL that it wasn't a two-way interaction. If he wanted to distance from Mac I'd expect him to name Mac.

Spoiler: show

Yay I love tearing apart silly "fishing for reaction" day 0 arguments.

Yet here you are with zero reads. What have you accomplished?

What is this, a job interview?

I don't have to accomplish shit.

This feels fake and reinforces DDL/Jay not w/w.

Looping back around on this one I questioned before, I got the distinctly opposite impression from reading that DDL post. It's exactly how I would have felt. Don't like that we're not on the same page in this game Jack. My face has scrunched up in confusion from several of your posts.

This is an extension of the first point. Mac used his civilian read on DDL as a conduit to shit on Jack, which is certainly compatible with TMI.

Dark green in Mac's rainbow -- unsurprising

Spoiler: show

I am trying to make heads or tails of this mac juliets weirdness and nope.

Nutella hiding behind a posting gimmick and throwing TMI all over the place then giving weak player salad suspicions without sincerity and preempting suspicion = die.

I don't wanna parrot people but this is the third time someone attacks nutella and I agree with it.

Let's [VOTE: nutella] aubergine before Mac also joins the ranks of the "maybe nutella is a civ" crew too and I lose my point of support.

DDL supported Mac against nutella. He did say that Mac's attack was the third he agreed with, lending some plausibility to the notion that Mac is only an incidental part of this. DDL didn't mention the other people though.

Spoiler: show

Pretty sure it was you who actually told me to start doing that quite a while ago too.

Not sure if I told it to you directly, but it is reqlly something I did myself. I used to tunnel vision a lot more.

Oh yeah it's in my sig hahaha.

Oh that.

Okay whatever

Spoiler: show

You mean that nagging feeling Mac is pocketing me? I have it too.

It would be a creative approach for mafia teammates to take here -- one of them strongly supports the other, while the reverse is distancing by way of "pocketing". I don't get that impression. DDL was on to Mac's shit.

DDL's vote ended the day on nutella.

~~~

Conclusion: I don't think DDL is a likely teammate of Mac.

Where’s the part of this that explains why DDL and Mac aren’t teamed?

This reads like a light green to yellow analysis.

not one mention in the last 2 pages of jack's iso lead to DDL except this prod to jay. ddl is supposed to be jack's biggest suspect.

ddl bad.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I can see DDL as bad. The reason I asked about him last night was that when I looked at my own rainbow, he stood out as a why?. Mac's TMI on him can actually be traced back to a single DDL post which can be viewed in the other direction too. I will reference it in a second.

[dunya]

I don't want to spend a great deal of time talking about my meta, DDL, because I absolutely don't care. I will be brief:

Ok so... you are arguing that what you do as mafia is very different from what I see you doing as a civ.

When you are a civ you never anihilate people. You go around suspects a lot before settling down at EoD, even if you were the one who started the wagon to begin with.

I think you underestimate my civilian behavior. I can be careful, I can be understanding, and I can always change my mind. It is not a rarity though for me to commit a huge portion of my hunting resources to destroying someone though. That's what I mean when I say "annihilate". Am I more forgiving as a civilian than as a mafioso? Probably yes. Mafia me wants mislynches and knows where to get them. Civilian me wants proper lynches and doesn't know where to get them.

Then you say you do different as a baddie... but then the problem is that I'd expect a veteran player like you to make a more conscious effort to make your baddie meta similar to the civ one. I'm not really buying that you'd let your baddie style be so obviously different from the civ one. We would read you a lot more easily if it was.

This is WIFOM of course, but I still think it makes sense.

A separate point: replicating my civilian self is generally not a priority for me when I am aligned with the mafia. There are a number of reasons for that which are hardly relevant to the present dialogue. I will summarize:

- Being too much like my civilian self actively harms my own team, because my civilian play is all about constructing a climate that interferes with mafia strategy
- Often it is the very effort to replicate a meta which gets people caught
- In my experience, most people don't see the differences anyway. Maybe you'd see this one; most people wouldn't. Meta accusations are weak and easy to deflect.

i don't wanna talk about meta and defend myself, but here, have a dissertation my meta and me defending myself.

too much explanation. bad.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I feel some of the people townreading me are bad. At least one of them

Feels like one of those games where I manage to post in a very obvious civ way which convinces people, but baddies already noticed that and are blending in.

I might get NKd soon.

This is the one I was just referring to. DDL was conscious of the people reading him as a civilian, and threw out a blanket of shade with no names attached. It's important that one of those people was Mac himself. DDL may have viewed Mac's support as something he needed to distance himself from, and so he got out in front of it here. This is also the post that triggered Mac to over-explain his own civilian read on DDL.

If that two-way interaction was false on both ends it wouldn't be a surprising thing.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i don't wanna talk about meta and defend myself, but here, have a dissertation my meta and me defending myself.

too much explanation. bad.

I answered the man's question and will leave it at that. I could have written quite a lot more about that and had to force myself to be brief.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Funny thing about meta: I have never "replicated" my civilian play effectively enough that I could be bad in this game.

[dunya]

juliets, what do you think of this? Do you trust it?

Well, I have mixed feelings. Sometimes it's worth sacrificing yourself to give the civs another mafia but I feel conflicted as to whether this is the best time to do that. On the other hand he has to know if we lynch Jack and Jack is good we lynch him next. I need to let this sink in and see if I can think of any reason that isn't coming to mind right now why he would do this if he was bad.

why would jack sacrifice himself for long con? surely long con would have sacrificed himself for jack who is already deep into the game and our town lists. i think that is highly unlikely.

Wait, I don't understand what you're saying. I don't think Jack would sacrifice himself for LC. I was saying LC might be sacrificing himself as a civ in order to give us a mafia (Jack).

oh sorry, i misread what you were saying. i thought you were saying mafia long con decided to sacrifice mafia jack to give us mafia and infuse himself as a civ in the game.

Oh no, actually I didn't even think of that until I was just in the shower and I decided it was too outlandish to be what is happening. I can't see a good reason LC would do this if bad so I believe him.

me too. he's good.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Last chance for me: who will vote Neverwhere?

Over Mac and Nutella? Yeah.

[VOTE: Neverwhere] aubergine

Neverwhere civilian

[JaggedJimmyJay]

BuT wHaT iS tHe PoInT oF a NeVeRwHeRe WaGoN

*spongebob meme*

[JaggedJimmyJay]

At this point my greatest motivation is not nutella. Among the active players Mac is the best suspect I've got, so sure.

I'm still open to a low poster. I will run out of time in moments.

Cfd Juliets?

juliets looks even better than before. So does Spacedaisy. That entire thing was just horseshit.