Harry Stephen Keeler [ENDGAME]

[Zombarella]

@ Liz Keen - Did you send a curse to my computer? I had a great big post all set up on MP and then my laptop just blinked off for no reason.

@ MM - That was a case on TH. I'm not convinced that TH is ban, but now I'm not convinced that you are either. As far as I can tell, people think you are the millionaire because you self voted on D1 but so did MP and Vompatti. If your bottle really does force responses, it seem like something you would want to protect and self voting would do that.

@ MP - You might be the millionaire or you might have a powerful item or you might have really been mad and self voted because of that. But we already know that you can fake anger in the thread. I know that you are busy right now but self-voting? not reading the thread? no baddie hunting? This isn't the MP I know. Why are you doing this? You might be bad, or at least civ-weird. Also, it looks a little like someone might be calling you to the thread....

@ Vompatti - If you are the millionaire then you are certainly playing it low. You aren't attracting votes necessarily but you are certainly acting very strangely. I haven't played with you before so I don't know your normal game.

Epi do you think that Vompatti is bad? Tee hee? Just a little joke. You don't have to answer that.

I don't know where I'm going to put my vote and I need to decide. If I don't vote MM I will get all kinds of accusations about trying to save my supposed baddie friends, but if I do and MM flips civ, which I think he might, I'll be in trouble for that. I want to vote MP but no one else seems to want to do that right now. Maybe not voting at all will get me in the least amount of trouble. Maybe that's just what I have to do, not vote.

[Bullzeye]

Anyway, Turnip Head.

I am convinced that he is on a team with Epignosis, and perhaps Dom as well.

Let's begin with the Day 1 reactions, especially those regarding blindfaeth. Everyone surely remembers when blindfaeth came forward early, saying that he has an item that could help him learn who the millionaire is.

He did? News to me! He must have kept pretty quiet about that one.

This question just seems out of the blue. Why does TH care about Dom's item, but not about anyone else's item? This smells of distancing, and a calculated form of distancing at that. blindfaeth had just accused TH about worrying about the safety of the millionaire, so TH immediately changes the subject. If he is a baddie, then what better way then to call upon a teammate. TH never followed up on the question

I think this is a bit of a stretch.

Epignosis and TH immediately respond with a "Well that's interesting". But curiously, neither of them ever followed up on it, just left it at that. I believe that this was a set-up for themselves. If the lynch were to sway Zomba's direction, they are in perfect position to pile their votes on. But the lynch didn't sway that direction, so they were in a position to back right off of that suspicion. This is one of many examples of TH and Epignosis being on the same page, and I will address that in a bit.

Okay this is actually reasonable and worth remembering.

I was reading through your entire post (I'll take those smash coins now please) and there were a few things I would've commented on but they would all have been basically the same comment. I think some of your points are okay, but others come off like a bit of a stretch - as if you decided to suspect TH then went to look for reasons why.

[Zombarella]

@ TH - I wish I had had a baddie team to help me with my angry post

[Tangrowth]

I still haven't read anything, and it's clear I'm not going to have time before the deadline. Sorry for being a fail this game, guys.

I'm voting TH because it doesn't seem to matter at this point and MM was striking me as genuine in the posts I read from him last night.

Linki w/ Zomba: Just don't compare my playstyle this game with any other game. I'm not bad. I just don't really give two craps about this game right now, which is not Llama's fault or anyone else's fault. I'm totally and seriously burnt out on mafia, and I thought tending to other things for a few days would help it, but it hasn't at all. I've asked to be replaced again, but seeing as though Llama has already had to replace three people this soon, I feel terrible doing so, so I might just stick it out for a bit. I don't know. I just honestly have no desire to play mafia right now, and that I just don't have the extra time to do so, especially in such an intense game.

Honestly, the sentiment you just expressed pings the crap out of me, like you're using me as an opportunistic target for an easy suspicion.

[Tangrowth]

Mafia is 99% of the time super fun for me, but right now it's only incredibly aggravating and not fun at all. I've got a million other things in my life right now too, so even though I took a few days away from the game and had every intention of getting into the game for a solid few hours last night, it just pissed me off and I felt like I was wasting my time. I'm 0% invested in this game.

[Tangrowth]

10 bucks that Zomba really is the Millionaire.

[Tangrowth]

EBWOP: I should say 10 Smash Points.

[Turnip Head]

Once again I'll say: If Zomberella was on my team, and Epignosis too, this would not have been our plan: "Hey Zomba, you should make a post that makes it look like BF is right about you! Then Epi and I will post and make it look like we think it's true! Yay distancing!" That is not a plan that baddies would come up with, because that's an awful plan. If I was on a team with Zombarella, I would have encouraged her to post something completely different.

linki: MP if you're not going to read the thread and instead keep talking about how much you don't want to play, please just ask to be replaced. I am not surprised at all by your vote for me. You seemed completely unwilling yesterday to discuss what was actually currently happening, and now you vote for me and say MM seems genuine, when I'm not convinced you've even read the relevant parts of the thread.

[Tangrowth]

I did ask to be replaced. I just said that.

[Tangrowth]

And I JUST SAID I didn't read the relevant parts of the thread. Sigh. I'm out. I really can't handle the debate.

[Turnip Head]

Okay.

[Tangrowth]

I'm sick of your pissy attitude, TH, I made every effort to get into this game last night and you stifled every attempt I made at discussion even though I'm absolutely not invested in this game at all.

[Tangrowth]

By just saying "oh we already talked about that keep reading"

[rabbit8]

MM

[Turnip Head]

I have not had a pissy attitude with you, MP. I have not attempted to stifle your discussion. I encouraged you to read the relevant parts of the thread so you could join the discussion, but you didn't want to do that.

linki: Yes you kept bringing up points about Day 1 things that weren't relevant anymore. I suggested that you keep reading and comment on things once you were finished. You said yourself you felt like you were getting nowhere with your catch-up strategy. I suggested an alternative, and you weren't interested.

[Tangrowth]

Fair enough, TH, sorry for being rude. I just tried my absolute best last night but this game is full of super intense and aggressive back and forths, and I got super tired, and I just haven't had the time or motivation. I made my best effort last night, but especially after Death Note I had no idea this game was going to be almost 1,500 posts on Day 2 when I signed up. It's just too much.

[Tangrowth]

I'd be totally receptive to starting my catch up at a later place, but I have more homework to do, and I just don't feel like playing, so sorry for wasting all of your time and everyone else's. It's apparent I just really can't play mafia right now. Hopefully Llama can find a replacement soon.

[bea]

Effective immediately, Black Rock 2.0 is replacing Bea.

Many apologizes to both the host and the players of this awesome game. And thank you so much for stepping in BR!

My promotion went through so now that has to be my focus for a while till I get my grounding and get to a place where I have some free time again.

[Canucklehead]

How bout if instead of hashing out things that "piss us off" and "we're sick of" in the game thread, we do it in PM? People's attitudes and play styles are only game relevant if they are contributing to how they make you view the person's alignment in this game, right now. Otherwise, it's just irrelevant bickering and grudge entrenching, and it makes the thread a fuckong drag to read for everyone.
Games are fun. Take the other shit somewhere else. Seriously.

[Tangrowth]

I agree, Canuck, and I realize I've been ridiculously drama-y this game and a terrible example for the site. I apologize for doing so. And I apologize for not getting invested properly. And I apologize for wasting everyone's time. I really do. But people are expecting crap from me and I made every effort to actually discuss this game and every attempt I made was stifled last night and honestly reading what I did last night while I was catching up, MM seemed way more genuine to me than TH, so it does feed into my only thoughts I have this game. I'm not intending to start anything with anyone. I'm leaving this game anyway.

[S~V~S]

I like turtles [/quote]

[S~V~S]

Lol fail

[Turnip Head]

I agree, Canuck, and I realize I've been ridiculously drama-y this game and a terrible example for the site. I apologize for doing so. And I apologize for not getting invested properly. And I apologize for wasting everyone's time. I really do. But people are expecting crap from me and I made every effort to actually discuss this game and every attempt I made was stifled last night and honestly reading what I did last night while I was catching up, MM seemed way more genuine to me than TH, so it does feed into my only thoughts I have this game. I'm not intending to start anything with anyone. I'm leaving this game anyway.

You've admitted to not reading the relevant parts of the thread, but you also say you voted for me because you did read it and MM seems more genuine than me to you. This seems like an easy way for you to get out of discussing the actual issues. Did you read the thread or didn't you? Do you understand what I'm accusing MM of and what he's accusing me of? Do you understand how LC, Epi, and Zomberella also factor into the discussion about me and MM? Because it sounds like you're taking sides without actually being well-versed on the issues being argued, and that's a huge red flag for me.

[fingersplints]

Sometimes people need a break, MP. It's unfortunate you didn't realize it before, but it happens to the best of us. I don't think TH was trying to be rude or snarky to you. Hopefully llama can find a replacement and we can all move along

linki lol SVS

[Tangrowth]

I did NOT read the thread. I read up through like most of Day 1. Then I read the two most recent pages or so as I was talking with you and MM last night. That's what I was referring to. I have nothing else to base my game off of than what I read up until most of Day 1 where I stopped and then what little I read last night. I was saying that your attempts to engage me in discussion did not strike me as genuine as MM. That's it. It's an opinion probably worth next to nothing, but it's my opinion. I also said I thought Zomba could be the Millionaire and that I wasn't sure I bought LC's one post but you kept stifling my posts, even though you said you'd be around to discuss.

Thanks, Splints. I'm really sorry for being such a shitty player this game. It's everything I never want to be.

[Dom]

One thing that does make me possibly doubt Metalmarsh is a baddie is that he and BR have a recent history with regard to Night 1 kills of BR by MM's baddie team. BR got revenge on him in Donner Mafia, killing him as soon as she got a chance to, and I just don't know if I believe he'd be so eager to jump back into killing her on Night 1 again. I mean, he's an asshole, sure, but is he 100% a dick?

What's this?

You call MM out when he self votes, but when Black Rock gets killed, you think he'd be less than consistent?

Seems like you're trying to...*ahem*...weasel your way out of voting for MM again.

Did you kill BR to try and frame Metalmarsh? I happen to know that you and BR were in BTSC in Donner Mafia when the decision was made to kill Metalmarsh, so you are definitely "in the know" with the Night 1 Kill situation that exists between them. A perfect little seat of awareness that would give you the opportunity to frame him. And then there's the fact that you didn't even mention that situation at all after BR was nightkilled.

You knew that they have a history of Metalmarsh's baddie team killing BR on Night 1, and yet you didn't bother to bring that into the thread. I thought that you were just lightly topping up the suspicion on Metalmarsh because, like me, you thought he was Civvie and you didn't want him to be nightkilled. Your vote-train leadership negates that assumption.

I think you killed BR specifically to implicate Metalmarsh, and your lack of discussion on the connection beyond a subtle hint to those who know...

Hahaha- and Black Rock is out Night 1. That's even funnier.

... points directly at you, trying to set up a frame-up job.

*votes Epignosis*

This was unexpected... I think I'll have more of an opinion after I see how MM flips.

*votes MM*'

MP, I think TH is bad and you should vote for him.

I also think that Epignosis is bad, Zomba is bad, and SVS and Dom could be bad.

wut

Just a bit after this, TH asked Dom why he picked the item he did.

Dom, can you talk a little bit about why you chose the Promissory Note item on Day 0?

This question just seems out of the blue. Why does TH care about Dom's item, but not about anyone else's item? This smells of distancing, and a calculated form of distancing at that. blindfaeth had just accused TH about worrying about the safety of the millionaire, so TH immediately changes the subject. If he is a baddie, then what better way then to call upon a teammate. TH never followed up on the question

After this TH asked Dom a question for clarification on some of Dom's accusations and interactions.

Honestly Dom I got the same impression from your post that LC, rabbit, BF and Golden did, and now that you've clarified that that wasn't your intention, I actually have NO idea what you're getting at re: juliets. Asking her if she was addressing all civs by saying "us", what does that even mean, what is your point re: juliets? Your follow-up question to her makes no sense to me, but I guess I'll wait to hear juliets' response to it in any case. But it feels like you're backpedaling.

Speaking of waiting for responses, I'm still waiting on Mongoose to address my post directed towards her. Her three posts from this past day are as follows:

Dang it, I should have counted to 10, I feel bad for reacting emotionally now instead of rationally. :P But I'm in too deep now. VOTE ME. And stuff. BBL.

It's okay hoss, we've all been there.

Huge deadline at COB tomorrow so I am spending my afternoon break doing a Scan & Ran with you lot. Seems like typical "mountains of molehill" Day 1 shenanigans, but nothing is toooo concerning to me yet (and I sure as hell don't have anything more compelling to add other than I made a "It has proudly been 3 days since our last velociraptor accident" sign for my office door).

I'll be voting early (tomorrow)because I leave for St Pete Saturday morning for a business trip and will be gone through Tuesday.

So it sounded like she had scanned the thread, because she commented how the day's cases looked like mountains of molehills fare.

Then she replied to a post that wasn't addressed to her:

Idk BR. If it was anyone other than MP I might think you were on to something, but he is so detail oriented I'm not really shocked he would have read the rules. Even I noticed that you can't have two people vote the same option and I am pretty notorious for not reading things like that carefully.
worth considering though

so bf - the TH/Bullz things are seperate from the will thing? I'm trying to get what you are saying here

I'm frankly surprised I read the instructions and am not one of the ones who voted second for one of the items. That's a welcome change.

And then she made an off-topic comment directed to the host:

Hey everyone!
Since we have a little extra time today, let's have a fun game. The roles on the front page need pictures to go along with them. Please submit a picture of your role to me via PM by the end of Night 1. My favorite gets a prize. Please nothing too racist for the Celestials.

*spat out tea in laughter*

I like the qualifier of "too" racist, with the intimation being that "a little racist" is permissible.

Yet she didn't reply to my post addressed to her. For now I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she just hadn't read that far into the thread, even though her first post made it sound like she had scanned the whole thread to that point. So that's strange, but I'll withhold from further judgment until she replies to my first post and to this subsequent post.

Included in this question to Dom are some accusations against Mongoose. So at this point, it reads to me like Mongoose is TH's biggest suspect. However, Sophie later replaced Mongoose that day, so I guess it's fair that TH didn't actually vote there.

After Dom answered TH's question, TH seemed to accept his answer.

Fair enough Dom, I suppose that makes sense.

Then anther suspecting question for Dom.

TH-- I'm juggling suspicions? Please-- look at how many different people BF has thrown shade at for no reason. Do you suspect BF for the same reason then? I just don't understand why suspecting 2 people (MP and BF) makes me someone who is throwing things out for no reason. I questioned juliets. Do you find it unusual for me to question people? I doubt that.
I'd rather not talk about the MP situation given the last time we did the result that ensued. I don't think we need to rehash that? Like... what else was I supposed to post? MP had a total meltdown over me asking 2 questions and didn't answer the second one. I felt responsible for MP's meltdown. I don't want to explore it again?

I don't think you questioning people is unusual (thanks for answering for me before I replied though :P ), but questioning juliets specifically, about that specific thing? I did think that was a little over the top. It felt like a normal juliets thing to say and I thought you would have agreed with me on that point.

Fair enough about MP.

If it makes you feel any better-- I was satisfied with juliets answer.

But all her answer did was confirm that she was talking about the civs... which is what I thought you were suspicious of her for?

Followed by another accepting answer by TH.

Gotchya Dom. Okay.

It looks like TH is trying to set himself up for a vote for Dom, but he continues to back off and accept Dom's responses.

Having read the roles a few times now-- I can see why TH asked me those questions.

I don't think TH is on a team with Epignosis at all. And I have no opinion of Dom at all and that scares the checkout of me tbh.

Do you normally have an opinion of me???

By just saying "oh we already talked about that keep reading"

tbh MP you KNOW that I'm waiting on an answer of a question from you. You MUST know this. I have pointed it out ENDLESSLY. I don't want to reopen a wound here, but instead of addressing the question you have made lots of irrelevant comments on how the beginning of the thread is boring you. That only reinforces that you're bad to me.

[Tangrowth]

Dom, I have no idea WTF you're talking about. This will be my last post. I'm not fucking bad and I should have never even played this game.

[Black Rock]

Effective immediately, Black Rock 2.0 is replacing Bea.

Many apologizes to both the host and the players of this awesome game. And thank you so much for stepping in BR!

My promotion went through so now that has to be my focus for a while till I get my grounding and get to a place where I have some free time again.

No prob, will just miss playing with you.

How bout if instead of hashing out things that "piss us off" and "we're sick of" in the game thread, we do it in PM? People's attitudes and play styles are only game relevant if they are contributing to how they make you view the person's alignment in this game, right now. Otherwise, it's just irrelevant bickering and grudge entrenching, and it makes the thread a fuckong drag to read for everyone.
Games are fun. Take the other shit somewhere else. Seriously.

I have to agree. I'm glad MP is taking the much needed break he deserves. We still love you MP.

[Bullzeye]

At this point a vote for anyone other than MM is essentially pointless. I have already mentioned that he is in a category of people I think holds at least one baddie, so I shall *vote MM* and see what happens. How he flips may influence my opinion of quite a few players.

[Canucklehead]

I'm less convinced of MM's civness than I was earlier today. His own admission of "giving up" last night and his not-so-awesome case against TH (merely intimating that someone might have btsc with someone else is not enough in this particular set-up, and I thought the attempts to construe that possible BTSC as necessarily baddie based on "Day 1 stuff" was not particularly convincing) have me questioning my earlier judgement of MM....but honestly, it's still not enough that I'm ready to vote for him.
Of course, at this point it doesn't really matter, since he seems to be as good as lynches anyway. I wish some more viable candidates would have come up so that I wouldn't feel as though I'm wasting my vote regardless of what I do.

[Epignosis]

Epi do you think that Vompatti is bad? Tee hee? Just a little joke. You don't have to answer that.

Yes. Yes I do.

[thellama73]

Effective immediately, Bass_the_Clever is replacing Movingpictures07, and the host is beginning to take it personally.

[Epignosis]

Effective immediately, Black Rock 2.0 is replacing Bea.

Many apologizes to both the host and the players of this awesome game. And thank you so much for stepping in BR!

My promotion went through so now that has to be my focus for a while till I get my grounding and get to a place where I have some free time again.

[Marmot]

At this point a vote for anyone other than MM is essentially pointless. I have already mentioned that he is in a category of people I think holds at least one baddie, so I shall *vote MM* and see what happens. How he flips may influence my opinion of quite a few players.

How does one hold a baddie?

[S~V~S]

[Turnip Head]

How does one hold a baddie?

By the edges, as far away from you as possible.

[Canucklehead]

I think of all the MM votes, juliets' reads the least genuine to me. I'll look trhough her posts and see if what pinged me in her vote post holds up in her other posts...

What did you see in my vote post?

Julie's, it just tea very cagey/Jeffry to me, especially in relation to an earlier post where someone asked you I on Day 2 you were still suspicious of MM. You replied with a very reserved yes, using language that suggested a great deal of uncertainty.
Then, your vote post implies that you really wanted to vote MM all along, but weren't sure that there was enough support, and are relieved tht you dot have to fin someone else to vote for.

Both could be very legitimate sentiments, but I'm interpreting them as being very cautious and concerned with not standing out too much. Hedging, cautious, and blendy are all terms I would use to describe those posts (and many of your posts). Your posts seem very concerned with placating people (lots of agreeing, and backing off after questions are answered), and your transition from being unsure of your suspicion of MM to being emboldened by the mass voting on him caught my eye.

Again, it's not a huge suspicion, when I'm a civ I often find my opinions of people heavily influenced by crowd opinions, too....but it is also a good tactic for not rocking the boat as a baddie, and as such it is something that's pinged me.

[Marmot]

I'm less convinced of MM's civness than I was earlier today. His own admission of "giving up" last night and his not-so-awesome case against TH (merely intimating that someone might have btsc with someone else is not enough in this particular set-up, and I thought the attempts to construe that possible BTSC as necessarily baddie based on "Day 1 stuff" was not particularly convincing) have me questioning my earlier judgement of MM....but honestly, it's still not enough that I'm ready to vote for him.
Of course, at this point it doesn't really matter, since he seems to be as good as lynches anyway. I wish some more viable candidates would have come up so that I wouldn't feel as though I'm wasting my vote regardless of what I do.

Dramatic turn of events

[Bullzeye]

At this point a vote for anyone other than MM is essentially pointless. I have already mentioned that he is in a category of people I think holds at least one baddie, so I shall *vote MM* and see what happens. How he flips may influence my opinion of quite a few players.

How does one hold a baddie?

However they want you to. Though I think SVS' post right after this answers the question appropriately. Hug them and maybe they will see the error of their ways.


It is the category that holds baddies. Or "includes", if you prefer.

[Canucklehead]

How does one hold a baddie?

By the edges, as far away from you as possible.

Welcome back, funny TH!! I missed you!

[Canucklehead]

I'm less convinced of MM's civness than I was earlier today. His own admission of "giving up" last night and his not-so-awesome case against TH (merely intimating that someone might have btsc with someone else is not enough in this particular set-up, and I thought the attempts to construe that possible BTSC as necessarily baddie based on "Day 1 stuff" was not particularly convincing) have me questioning my earlier judgement of MM....but honestly, it's still not enough that I'm ready to vote for him.
Of course, at this point it doesn't really matter, since he seems to be as good as lynches anyway. I wish some more viable candidates would have come up so that I wouldn't feel as though I'm wasting my vote regardless of what I do.

Dramatic turn of events

Huh?

[Marmot]

I think of all the MM votes, juliets' reads the least genuine to me. I'll look trhough her posts and see if what pinged me in her vote post holds up in her other posts...

What did you see in my vote post?

Julie's, it just tea very cagey/Jeffry to me, especially in relation to an earlier post where someone asked you I on Day 2 you were still suspicious of MM. You replied with a very reserved yes, using language that suggested a great deal of uncertainty.
Then, your vote post implies that you really wanted to vote MM all along, but weren't sure that there was enough support, and are relieved tht you dot have to fin someone else to vote for.

Both could be very legitimate sentiments, but I'm interpreting them as being very cautious and concerned with not standing out too much. Hedging, cautious, and blendy are all terms I would use to describe those posts (and many of your posts). Your posts seem very concerned with placating people (lots of agreeing, and backing off after questions are answered), and your transition from being unsure of your suspicion of MM to being emboldened by the mass voting on him caught my eye.

Again, it's not a huge suspicion, when I'm a civ I often find my opinions of people heavily influenced by crowd opinions, too....but it is also a good tactic for not rocking the boat as a baddie, and as such it is something that's pinged me.

Isn't this what you did though Canucklehead? Or pretty close to it?

You've spent the majority of the day supporting parts of my case on TH and making accusations on him, even going so far as to say that you don't think I am bad here.

But suddenly you don't think I am civ and voted for me all in one post?

[Marmot]

Oops, scratch that, you haven't voted yet.

But I don't understand your sudden reversal in thinking.

[bea]

Effective immediately, Bass_the_Clever is replacing Movingpictures07, and the host is beginning to take it personally.

Please don't - I love you and I love this game - I'm super sad I can't play.

[Marmot]

Effective immediately, Bass_the_Clever is replacing Movingpictures07, and the host is beginning to take it personally.

Please don't - I love you and I love this game - I'm super sad I can't play.

Good luck with the new job bea! I look forward to your return so I can kill you again play some mafia with you again.

[juliets]

Canuck, I don't think you've played with me enough to recognize that cautious is my style. I like to vote on facts and am much less comfortable voting on feelings or gut. Thus, I try to look at each situation all the way around to see how much factual data is available. I play devils advocate though I don't voice this in the thread. I may ask questions that seem odd but usually that is me trying to make sure I see the situation from all sides. I feel as sure as it's going to get on MM this round because he voted for himself again this round, even after he knew this was problematic in the first round. I was less sure, but still very suspicious, before he did that but once he did it was the cherry on top. Check my vote - it came after his self vote.

I'm also not a case builder though I do sometimes build cases but not this early in the game. For me, this early in the game, this is my normal behavior. I understand that these things ping you and all I can do is explain my play style as much as possible.

[fingersplints]

Welcome bass, bye Bea and good luck with the job <3

[Marmot]

Canuck, I don't think you've played with me enough to recognize that cautious is my style. I like to vote on facts and am much less comfortable voting on feelings or gut. Thus, I try to look at each situation all the way around to see how much factual data is available. I play devils advocate though I don't voice this in the thread. I may ask questions that seem odd but usually that is me trying to make sure I see the situation from all sides. I feel as sure as it's going to get on MM this round because he voted for himself again this round, even after he knew this was problematic in the first round. I was less sure, but still very suspicious, before he did that but once he did it was the cherry on top. Check my vote - it came after his self vote.

I'm also not a case builder though I do sometimes build cases but not this early in the game. For me, this early in the game, this is my normal behavior. I understand that these things ping you and all I can do is explain my play style as much as possible.

How will you react after I flip as a civilian?

[Canucklehead]

Oops, scratch that, you haven't voted yet.

But I don't understand your sudden reversal in thinking.

I haven't reversed my thinking?
I explicitly said that while I was feeling less certain you were a civ because of some posts you made, tht new uncertainty wasn't enough to make me want to vote for you.

That's not a reversal. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[Canucklehead]

Canuck, I don't think you've played with me enough to recognize that cautious is my style. I like to vote on facts and am much less comfortable voting on feelings or gut. Thus, I try to look at each situation all the way around to see how much factual data is available. I play devils advocate though I don't voice this in the thread. I may ask questions that seem odd but usually that is me trying to make sure I see the situation from all sides. I feel as sure as it's going to get on MM this round because he voted for himself again this round, even after he knew this was problematic in the first round. I was less sure, but still very suspicious, before he did that but once he did it was the cherry on top. Check my vote - it came after his self vote.

I'm also not a case builder though I do sometimes build cases but not this early in the game. For me, this early in the game, this is my normal behavior. I understand that these things ping you and all I can do is explain my play style as much as possible.

I think there's a difference between cautious as a civ and cautious as a baddie, though I'm not sure which version I'm seeing with you yet.

Why did MM's second self-vote convince you? What does he r his team have to gain by that, in your estimation?