Biblical Mafia [ENDGAME]

[Young Lady]

I noticed him lurking as well (like, even right now! *le spooky* ). Besides, I didn't really touch upon this because I don't know what to make of it, but he was testy with me as well at one point, not just with Lot yesterday, thinking I shot down his arguments entirely or something.

[Prisoner 509378]

It could just be for show. After a halfway butt-hurt post like this...

I am voting Balaam today.

I'm really beginning to wonder about you. You seem to be bona fide intentionally ignoring the thread to go on your Balaam tirade. You are doing nothing but hurting the civilian cause.

Im not ignoring the thread. Im pressing the person I think is bad right now.

But oh yeah, right, you think he's civ for reasons you wont really say, and so Im hurting the civ cause


I'm not even going to announce my vote anymore. This game is pissing me off.

...I could see him being a spiteful ninja voter from here on out. The problem is, we already have too many generic ninja voters as it is.

I never knew the Bible was so full of ninjas.

Too many ninjas. Not enough discussion.

[Nicol Bolas]

Ninja vote time for Pilate. Sorry. I think that a Mordecai vote will give us some good information right now.

[Prisoner 509378]

*substitute 'Mordecai' for 'Warriors'*

[Young Lady]

Careful though, for thou have used the Host's color.

[Young Lady]

How does everyone feel about Rebecca? Is there a strong scenario for her to be a Heathen? I found it so, quite frankly.

[Prisoner 509378]

Careful though, for thou have used the Host's color.

Is sarcastic orange forbidden in this game? I didn't want anyone to think I was actually taunting him. That would just be mean. I'm pretty sure our Host is using a darker orange.

[Young Lady]

Oops, my bad.

[Prisoner 509378]

So I see a quarter of today's possible votes have already been cast. There's 18 of us left but we'll handicap that down to 16 because , well, who actually expects Bathsheba and Malchus to show up at this point?

We've still got 4 and a half hours until the deadline. Let's do some talking and not just drive-by vote okay?

Who is everyone's top three suspects right now? Here are mine:

1. Jacob
2. Deborah
3. Mordecai

[NurseWilgy]

So I see a quarter of today's possible votes have already been cast. There's 18 of us left but we'll handicap that down to 16 because , well, who actually expects Bathsheba and Malchus to show up at this point?

We've still got 4 and a half hours until the deadline. Let's do some talking and not just drive-by vote okay?

Who is everyone's top three suspects right now? Here are mine:

1. Jacob
2. Deborah
3. Mordecai

1. Mordecai
2. Rahab
3. Belshazzar

I am simply not seeing the case on Rebecca. Her record doesn't look that bad to me.

[Snapshot]

1. Isaac
2. Isaac
3. Isaac

READ MY CASE!!!!

Especially the last day where he literally completely reverses his position.

I can't believe he is still not featuring in top threes, it's insane.

[Prisoner 509378]

1. Isaac
2. Isaac
3. Isaac

READ MY CASE!!!!

Especially the last day where he literally completely reverses his position.

I can't believe he is still not featuring in top threes, it's insane.

Relax! I'll re-read him over dinner.

[Young Lady]

Rebecca is fine, but Rahab is 2nd suspect? Strange stuff.

Based on my reads, I'd probably say:

1. Rebecca
2. Jacob - his hint notwithstanding
3. Isaac - his hint notheartwarming

but since the Jacob dillema is far from reaching a resolution, I'd probably put Mordecai on a 4th place. I'm very interested in cracking the Day 6 situation and both Rebecca and him can be read bad for pushing Rachel closer to Ruth. Rebecca with no goddamn reason whatsoever and Mordecai by doing his own different analysis and finding Rachel a potential schemer with Uzziah. But if he's bad, that can well be an intentional plant.

[Young Lady]

I also strongly feel, at this point, that all four of us have done reads and debates in vain, because the rest will just come and do lottery between our choices. Sorry to put it this way, but

[NurseWilgy]

I also strongly feel, at this point, that all four of us have done reads and debates in vain, because the rest will just come and do lottery between our choices. Sorry to put it this way, but

Well, I'm convinced that at least one of us doing reads is bad, because wouldn't you? Would you let your whole team not get involved with the thread leaders? I sure wouldn't.

I've been giving Isaac the benefit of the doubt, but if it turns out I am wrong about Mordecai, I will be happy to stop giving him that benefit.

[Young Lady]

Well, we're in a peculiar civ/suss square ourselves, anyway. You suspect me, yet I find you the civviest of us four. Lot vouches for Balaam, but you are not sold on him and I have him in a murky area due to his stats, but find his own vouches genuine.

[NurseWilgy]

Well, we're in a peculiar civ/suss square ourselves, anyway. You suspect me, yet I find you the civviest of us four. Lot vouches for Balaam, but you are not sold on him and I have him in a murky area due to his stats, but find his own vouches genuine.

All of this is extremely true.

[Snapshot]

I chose not to relax in that moment because I am not around much between now and the lynch, or at least I'm not expecting to be. Glad I made my point, at least!

[Snapshot]

For whats it worth, my real list is:

1) Isaac
2) Deborah
3) Mordecai

And I'll throw Jonah in at 4, as someone who I'm newly looking at and could rise after a reread.

[Snapshot]

What did you mean by Stephen's close affinity with Paul?

I'm pretty sure that Paul's real identity subbed in and became Stephen's real identity when Stephen's 'house exploded'.

[Rachel Green]

So Isaac's response to my case is a self-vote.

Stuff like that is frustrating.

I voted Lazarus at the very start of the day. I did mention it (at least I'm pretty sure I did).

I agree. If you are civ, try and defend yourself at least. Help our your team, you know. Don't just give up!

I think that a Mordecai vote will give us some good information right now.

Maybe, but I don't trust you at all, so......

Who is everyone's top three suspects right now? Here are mine:

1. Jacob
2. Deborah
3. Mordecai

I feel more strongly about who I trust more easily than say who I suspect. That said,

1. Pilate
2. Isaac
3. Jacob
and I am going to add 4.Mordy only b/c his vote record. I think he's been pretty helpful in the thread though. I have seen civs have shitty voting records and get lynched b/c of it.

[Snapshot]

Isaac's self vote is troubling. But to me it reads like a civvie who feels doomed.. He is convinced he will either get NKed or lynched. I can't see a baddie throwing in the towell like thta.

Isaac threatened to self vote in his overreaction to suspicion the first day his name was brought up...

The next day he said he'd vote 'whichever way others did' out of Mordecai, Jacob and himself.

And then today he self-votes when I build a case on him before anyone else does.

For me the whole thing looks like a big wifom, designed with exactly the intent to make people feel how he made you feel. Or at least, put it this way, if you were bad... wouldn't that angle be a good one to play.

[Rachel Green]

I hate to spread more votes, but I would like to vote one of my top three. Lot, Abs, Balaam, I am trusting you this game....what do you suggest?

[Snapshot]

So at minimum, the logic is flawed in that Martha could have been Simon the Zealot. So could have Paul but I feel like Stephen might have felt Lazarus was worth pushing harder, given his close affinity with Paul.

I finally picked up on this possible loophole (guess I didn't read your reads lists too well and your conversation with the Host afterwards, either ), interesting. But Simon was activated on Night 1, so it can only be Martha. Small window.

Small window indeed, but it had to be a small window. Absalom started his approach to hinting at it too soon for it to be something that happened later anyway. And Martha was visible enough that her being activated is plausible. Lazarus being activated on day one much less so.

[Snapshot]

I also strongly feel, at this point, that all four of us have done reads and debates in vain, because the rest will just come and do lottery between our choices. Sorry to put it this way, but

Well, I'm convinced that at least one of us doing reads is bad, because wouldn't you? Would you let your whole team not get involved with the thread leaders? I sure wouldn't.

I'm becoming less and less convinced of this all the time. Belshazzar seems good to me, his tables etc genuine. I've actually never seen a mafia work that hard for civ cred. And as for you and Balaam, I'm confident on both of you.

Could someone be a horseman, though? Definitely.

[Snapshot]

Esther, I really think Isaac, but Mordecai seems to be gaining steam and may be a good choice. At least he isn't a divisive choice.

I'd caution, though. Mordecai appears to be silenced, which is never a good time to lynch someone. Yes, I know it can be faked. But it also just seems really mean.

If you are thinking Isaac, then please just go and read the very end of my case - the last point on the second half of it.

[NurseWilgy]

I hate to spread more votes, but I would like to vote one of my top three. Lot, Abs, Balaam, I am trusting you this game....what do you suggest?

Of your top three, probably Isaac.

[Young Lady]

So at minimum, the logic is flawed in that Martha could have been Simon the Zealot. So could have Paul but I feel like Stephen might have felt Lazarus was worth pushing harder, given his close affinity with Paul.

I finally picked up on this possible loophole (guess I didn't read your reads lists too well and your conversation with the Host afterwards, either ), interesting. But Simon was activated on Night 1, so it can only be Martha. Small window.

Small window indeed, but it had to be a small window. Absalom started his approach to hinting at it too soon for it to be something that happened later anyway. And Martha was visible enough that her being activated is plausible. Lazarus being activated on day one much less so.

Absalom started his approach to hinting at what?

[Rachel Green]

Thanks for the feedback. I will go with Isaac today. I do think his self vote is strange and I like Lot's case.

[Prisoner 509378]

I also strongly feel, at this point, that all four of us have done reads and debates in vain, because the rest will just come and do lottery between our choices. Sorry to put it this way, but

Well, I'm convinced that at least one of us doing reads is bad, because wouldn't you? Would you let your whole team not get involved with the thread leaders? I sure wouldn't.

I'm becoming less and less convinced of this all the time. Belshazzar seems good to me, his tables etc genuine. I've actually never seen a mafia work that hard for civ cred. And as for you and Balaam, I'm confident on both of you.

Could someone be a horseman, though? Definitely.

Really? I can see a Heathen in the four of us. It would make sense. The civs vote out the semi-quiet folk while the Heathens kill off the talkative civvies until there's maybe one talkative civvie left besides the talkative Heathen. Then the semi-quiet Heathens come out of hiding with well-thought-out ideas and help steer the rest of the sheep onto the path of the talkative Heathen who seems to have it together despite being wrong about several lynches.

Honestly, I can see a Heathen and a Horseman for that matter.

[Young Lady]

For completion's sake, my reread of

Lot

which is just as sprawling and raw as Balaam's, because I apparently can't handle 200+ posts very well. And it didn't take me an hour, thank God, it took me two (granted, with a lot of going back into the thread for real-time posting).

Day 1: critical at first of Paul but reconsiders, also pinged by Ruth's meta-hunt (I think that makes it only two players who have pursued this). Picks up on Jeph's, debates it with him extensively and it'll ultimately be where his vote went at the end of the day. Suspected Uzziah but gave him BOTD for his only "genuine" post. Stances on Cain were that he's suspicious and Samson's lynch might be a save his way and on Samson, despite an early ping, that it was the easy lynch to pick, but that Samson also didn't make it better with his attitude.

I'm going to call his vote consistent with his content, even though Jeph is exactly the player for whom spreading votes on that Day instead of jumping on the wagons is a plausible thing (check Rebecca).

Day 2: included the famous rooting for/out analysis, impression on Job worsens, impression of Jeph slightly better, still believed Cain might be bad and a save took place Day 1, Uzziah is now the "lazy pick" (he calls it more a "truth" than any kind of defense towards Uzziah) and questions the wifom. Has a lot of rebuttals to give for this (to Job, Deborah, Bathsheba!). Ultimately votes Uzziah over Job (finds more value in Job's activity than Uzziah's lack of)

Not much I can get out of the vote tally, Cain lynch was already in full progress and Lot's vote for Uzziah was only the second. He didn't trust Cain at that point, but I don't see full sign of endorsing his lynch train either.

Day 3: can post only once, apparently; suspects Absalom for the majority of the lynches and night kills. Offers a sentence in support for Uzziah still being lynched and that he's still wary about , but it doesn't sound like much. Checks in thread in silence and decides my ping on Rachel was good enough to vote her way. Not really lamenting MM's death, but distancing himself from the train lynch that took place.

Sketchiest vote so far, especially in the change of choice towards Rachel. In theory his early vote could have built many paths for a mislynch, since it was 1-1-1 between Uzziah, Job and Rachel. Lazarus and Mary followed later.

Day 4: misses day and vote (imprisoned by Herod?), comes back and launches tirade at Absalom and Nicodemus for almost pushing Balaam into a lynch, for whom he suddenly vouches to the fullest
Day 5: mostly debates with Jeph over his vote for Balaam the other Day (triggered by Samuel) and votes for him. Final stance on Uzziah is that he'd be a Horsemen. General side-note to this: As with Balaam, I see roughly two civ explanations for Lot vouching for him, but if the flip will actually be other way around, it might narrow to a single explanation and "consequences will never be the same".

Well, that verdict on Uzziah certainly isn't absolving. His vote for Jeph was just the second and, again, Jeph as 2nd wagon formed very slowly, whilst Uzziah went down fast, but it's still a fertile ground for teammate distancing (at least one or two would make sense) and Lot's in company with a lot of suspicious folks for me (Rebecca, Isaac, Samuel, Jonah - in that order, actually). Don't think I suspect him more than the rest, but this is how it looks.

Now, around Day 5, I also did bring up the impression that Lot might have generated the "tunnel vision" angle that ultimately got Job lynched. Which he didn't dispute, but called it also irrelevant. Then again, some of the players who went with that angle (like Rachel) have proven civ already, so there's not much evidence towards a subtle push of Job.

Day 6: embraces full read-mode after first hit on Heathens; suspects Jacob, Isaac, then Ruth, Deborah + still pinged by Jeph. Brings up Mordecai, but he's not so much on his radar. Goes with Ruth, for the sake of analysis material from her votes and moves, depending on flip.

Not seeing his Day 6 vote as bad, because, once again, the "let me put you in danger of being lynched, Ruthy, we'll sort it out eventually" tactic seems like the worst the Heathens could have chosen that day.

Day 7: top suspects Jacob, Jeph, Deborah, Isaac, remotely Jonathan. Goes back to voting Jeph for what he calls a sprawling game. Mislynch.
Day 8 & 9: casts first vote of the Day for Lazarus both times, also having a different angle on the meaning of his votes (other hypothesis being that he could been afflicted), continues read-mode, his suspicions oscillate (trusts Jacob more based on the hint than the stats, impression of Issac worsens)

He fully contributes, but his votes have now landed early on Lazarus. I could do without the latter, simply by the way he's doing it, even if I understand if he is "compelled" to do something about Lazarus.

[Joe Who?]

There is a lot to process in this thread, but I think I can handle it. I think. I'll respond to what I remember I wanted to respond to and go from there.

I see why you're (and I'm referring to any and all saying this) calling Pilate "unimpeachable." His votes for Uzziah would be quite a distancing tactic. He's unlikely in that light, yes, but certainly not unimpeachable. People do crazy shit all the time as mafia to see if they can get away with it, and I wouldn't put it past some people to play the way he's been playing. So I guess what I'm saying is that I disagree that he's "unimpeachable," especially in light of Esther's analysis of him and my general feels for him, but I do see that he's less likely.

Isaac's whole deal with the "vanilla" slip got me looking in his direction. It bothered me that once he started taking heat, he comes out with that "slip" and tries to wiggle his way out of scrutiny/death from both the heathens and civilians. Lot analyzed this well and I actually kinda gasped excitedly reading it because it put a finger on what had bothered me about that whole conversation last Night, besides role-hinting in general. Really I dig the whole case. I also don't appreciate his self-vote, which, along with role-hinting, I've seen is a baddie tactic to get people to lay off you.

Since I never can hold more than a few players at a time in my head especially in large games, I hadn't thought about Rebecca, but Belsh's analysis of her as baddie is interesting and worth a look. I am a little confused at one part of it:

Defensive vote for Jeph Day 7. Defends what I just said about her Day 6 awful looking stance as misinterpreting and that in fact she saw "Ruth on Day 5 pushing for a choice between Jeph and Uzz", under the logic that both of them are bad and threatened to go down. Otherwise, it's a really bad angle and still doesn't connect well with suspecting and voting Rachel. She [Rahab] would only have her belief that Jeph is bad in her defense, but if she's actually Heathen, such a belief can clearly have been manufactured.

So yeah, it looks pretty bad. If Rebecca is Heathen, her vote record isn't even tough or out-of-the-box to interpret as such. (Sorry we didn't listen to you, Jeph)

Part of me is confused why my name is in there (did you mean Rebecca?) and part of me just wants to know what you mean in other words. Otherwise, I think you make very good points about Rebecca and her behavior.

Rahab, why does the hint make you more suspicious? Again, my role is known to be alive, so I can't be fake-claiming. Anyway, I've already defended my admittedly poor voting record. Eye me all you want, but lynching me would just slow down the baddie hunting.

I despise role-hinting like I despise self-voting. I find it a cheap tactic to gain civ cred and sympathy. And if we're talking "ballsy" it might be a risk to take one of the more inactive player's roles as claiming. But honestly I think I'm going out of the realm of logic/reality thinking in that light. I need to think about this.

I think I've addressed what I wanted to. My top three suspects, since apparently we're doing that:
1) Isaac, in light of Lot's analysis and my own heebie-jeebie feelings
2) Pilate (don't care that others think he's "unimpeachable," he is still suspicious)
3) Rebecca/Jacob. I'd like clarification for that part of Rebecca suspicion, and I feel I might need to rethink Jacob, so he's fallen down a few pegs, but not off the suspicion ladder.

[Young Lady]

Oh, wow, sorry about slipping you in the notes on Rebecca. I think I was correcting typos before submitting the entire post and got you two mixed up for no reason. That is indeed Rebecca I'm referring to.

As for what I meant, it was that the only way I can see (or, better yet, anticipate) Rebecca defending her Day 6 vote post claim (i.e. that both Jeph and Uzz were up for sacrifice) is due to her belief, at that time, that Jeph was a Heathen. But if she's a Heathen and thus knew very well that Jeph isn't, she could have easily seeded such wrong information to the thread. Does it make more sense now? Here's the post, just in case.

[Marmot]

What did you mean by Stephen's close affinity with Paul?

I'm pretty sure that Paul's real identity subbed in and became Stephen's real identity when Stephen's 'house exploded'.

[Joe Who?]

Ah, and of course I missed two things I wanted to mention before as well. That's what I get for writing a novel:

Balaam and Ruth voting timing/pattern: Interesting catch, Absalom. I wouldn't throw anything out, and I'm all for suspecting just about anything no matter how ballsy, but Balaam's read pretty civ to me this game and his defense (or rather, claiming it as coincidence) reads genuine. Weird coincidence, though. Funny more than anything. Funny ha-ha.

Since Mordecai's got some of the eyeball and some votes - he does have a rather bad record, kinda like Isaac and Jacob. Their behavior (especially Isaac's in the last couple of periods), however, combined with that, look worse to me today, although Mordecai seems rather angry in his posts (frustrated civ? Tactical baddie? Angry player?). I feel more wishy-washy with him than I do with my top suspects, but I'd be interested to see what he has to say.

Oh, wow, sorry about slipping you in the notes on Rebecca. I think I was correcting typos before submitting the entire post and got you two mixed up for no reason. That is indeed Rebecca I'm referring to.

As for what I meant, it was that the only way I can see (or, better yet, anticipate) Rebecca defending her Day 6 vote post claim (i.e. that both Jeph and Uzz were up for sacrifice) is due to her belief, at that time, that Jeph was a Heathen. But if she's a Heathen and thus knew very well that Jeph isn't, she could have easily seeded such wrong information to the thread. Does it make more sense now? Here's the post, just in case.

Yes, thank you! For some reason the original wording was throwing me off something awful.

[Joe Who?]

I've gotta make dinner and get ready to go out with friends afterwards, so I'm gonna go ahead and put my vote on Isaac.

[Snapshot]

Really? I can see a Heathen in the four of us. It would make sense.

OK, but it isn't me, it isn't you, it isn't Absalom - so that leaves Belshazzar.

And, I dunno, I need to do a read back, but he has been making tables and some very good observations. I'm not 100% sold that Belshazzar can't be. On the other hand, even back on day one, Belshazzar was the very first person I ever got a civ vibe from, and it has persisted to a number of his behaviours.

I'm open to it, I just don't think it's true.

[MartinWP69]

I still think Isaac seems genuine, despite his poor play, so I'm voting Mordecai.

[Snapshot]

He fully contributes, but his votes have now landed early on Lazarus. I could do without the latter, simply by the way he's doing it, even if I understand if he is "compelled" to do something about Lazarus.

Join the club!

[Snapshot]

Thank you, Rahab, for reading the case (and Esther). It seems no one else has even commented on how Isaac did a complete about face yesterday. It bothers me that people seem to be choosing not to read it... I'm beginning to worry about the plausibility of recruits.

[Prisoner 509378]

Hey there Mordecai! I see you lurking. Care to join us?

[Young Lady]

I read Lot's case on Isaac and I support it, except for minor points like #2 (I actually agree with his viewpoint, because he agrees with my own in it, so duh) and #6 in his first post. The latter mostly because I've checked and it was on Night 3 so he probably feared being killed by God (especially with Balaam demanding low posters not be spared). I don't get the "street cred" sentence either, but the rest seems fluff.

What really ticked me off, and Lot rehashed it well, was him defending Uzziah then slightly, maybe self-aware too, backing it up. Besides that, a distancing from Ruth, even on the day of her lynch, could really be plausible as a variation. Since I'm not as sympathetic to his hint as I am to Jacob's, I still see the abovementioned as serious issues, alongside his vote record that doesn't look good.

I know it took me a second read yesterday - mostly because I was really vexed by the whole role-hint or role-slip that happened and that included debating how to test the validity of the claim or waiting to see reactions from civs or baddies and so on - but I understand now better what Lot was aiming for.

Technically, I'd still have him third on my list, with Rebecca and Jacob looking slightly worse, but since I spent an entire day finding who the suspects are for me right now, I would not have anything against voting Isaac either. I still wish I'd hear more from others on Rebecca.

Can we interpret Mordecai's lurking as a signal that he's been silenced? It feels like Cain Day 2 all over again, for some reason. Would it matter, for those who primarily want to lynch him nevertheless?

[Prisoner 509378]

I'm going to take care of some RL stuff and then I'll go over Lot's case on Isaac before I figure out my vote.

[Snapshot]

@Belsh - does that mean you agree with my point 2 in the first post, because I sort of said it counted in favour of Isaac being civilian rather than against? Just want to be clear about your perspective here.

I definitely think it's clear Mordecai is silenced.

[Young Lady]

@Belsh - does that mean you agree with my point 2 in the first post, because I sort of said it counted in favour of Isaac being civilian rather than against? Just want to be clear about your perspective here.

I definitely think it's clear Mordecai is silenced.

I don't tend to give an alignment verdict for such viewpoints, because from past experience civs can both focus on their primary, clearly stated win condition, and want to eliminate every role that's not civ-friendly, but Heathens, in the whole equation, would always have to blend in and side with the civs in their statements/viewpoints, otherwise they'd easily get eyeballed, at least, or worse, have a lynch case started on them.

[Kent Brockman]

LOT MUST DIE! So I am voting for him.

[Rachel Green]

LOT MUST DIE! So I am voting for him.

Why must he die?

[Quokka]

Oh boy... I was leaning Mordecai, but I can see the case on Isaac too. I find Mordecai and Belshazzar most suspicious personally. But others seem to be thinking we will get the most information from Isaac. Arg!

I have one question I would like to hear everyone's answer to, what is your feeling on Jonah right now? Any thoughts on possible alignment?

[Quokka]

I don't want a huge long answer to this, the tl;dr posts are good (and yes, I read them all) but that's not what I'm interested in hearing.

[Snapshot]

LOT MUST DIE! So I am voting for him.

Why must he die?

For the same reason Lazarus must die, I suppose

I'd really like War to die, to see if it broke the cycle. Because this is really really bad news for me, if Lazarus is Simon the Zealot.

@samuel - I think there is a chance Jonah is bad.