[ENDGAME] Bullets Over Broadway Mafia

[Marmot]

I'm off, but I'm going ahead and voting Hedgeowl.

[fingersplints]

Oh wow the case on Hedge is a really really strong one. I think she and splints are both very likely to be on wildhorn. So I'll vote for one of them but I'll wait to see if splints comes back to defend. (Or Hedge too but she seems not to be around?)

Golden, I'm not on team webber. I was highly suspicious of both Sig and Gman by the time each was lynched, and I was fairly vocal about it. For Sig, I may have been on the late side to get to the actual vote, but I had been repeating his name as a suspect for a long time -- I think I was one of the first people to tag onto the case someone (sloonei?) initially made and encouraged pursuing him for a while. For G-man, at first he was just annoying but by the day LC was lynched I was fully convinced that both were bad and wanted to lynch both asap.

I thought the points I have yet to defend are nijuu's angry case I am on team webber, and dfaraday's comment that I am oppurtunistic. Can you point out the wild horn accusations that I haven't addressed that you are supposedly waiting for?

[Golden]

Damnit, I just lost a big post I did on splints.

It amounted to - not on team webber, posts could suggest she is on team wildhorn (Cobalt more suspicious than LC, G-Man more suspicious than LC), she would have had to have thrown BR under the bus, but the wording of her posts around that are soft and sound to me like the kind of things splints might say if she had BR's permission to vote her out. BR knew she was going down anyway.

However, I didn't find the evidence overwhelming - convincing enough that it is possible. Less convincing than the hedgeowl case.

[fingersplints]

Damnit, I just lost a big post I did on splints.

It amounted to - not on team webber, posts could suggest she is on team wildhorn (Cobalt more suspicious than LC, G-Man more suspicious than LC), she would have had to have thrown BR under the bus, but the wording of her posts around that are soft and sound to me like the kind of things splints might say if she had BR's permission to vote her out. BR knew she was going down anyway.

However, I didn't find the evidence overwhelming - convincing enough that it is possible. Less convincing than the hedgeowl case.

When I voted BR I didn't find much more to add to the BR case then what I did which was that it was weird she was getting upset at us for not mentioning LC.

Voting BR

I know she doesn't usually like to volunteer opinions on LC, but the bit about expecting others to point out why she wouldn't mention LC really seems off to me. Bit of a guilt trip.

I have played with BR quite a lot, and I think I have gotten loads better at reading her as the time has gone on. That point was really the turning point for me. I could not see a civvie BR making these statements:

I haven't read back beyond the quick catchups I have been doing for the past week, but I think the other "case" against me is that I didn't go after LC or comment on him too much either way. At least half the people in this game are WELL aware that LC and I ALWAYS refrain from giving too much of a read in the thread on each other for about the first half of any game we're in together. This has been discussed publicly many times. We are married, and it's not fair to the game, the other players, the host, and to each other for us to focus too much on one another, because we would have an advantage in that area, as we often can see one another's reactions, posting mood, and more. Again, this fact is well known to those that play with us regularly, and I'm disappointed that no one has even bothered to bring that up.

If this is something that she has discussed publicly, then why wouldn't she bring it up now? The obvious reason was that there was something there to the LC connection.
I am one who used to ask BR what she thought about LC, and she wouldn't like it but would offer some opinions. I find nothing wrong with spouses suspecting/talking about one another in mafia games (I think I led the lynch on my husband the last mafia game he will ever play ^_^ ) so this defense wasn't great. I don't think that knowing someone well = being able to read them good in a mafia game.
Also, I found the disappointed line wasn't something a civvie BR would say.

[fingersplints]

Oh wow the case on Hedge is a really really strong one. I think she and splints are both very likely to be on wildhorn. So I'll vote for one of them but I'll wait to see if splints comes back to defend. (Or Hedge too but she seems not to be around?)

Golden, I'm not on team webber. I was highly suspicious of both Sig and Gman by the time each was lynched, and I was fairly vocal about it. For Sig, I may have been on the late side to get to the actual vote, but I had been repeating his name as a suspect for a long time -- I think I was one of the first people to tag onto the case someone (sloonei?) initially made and encouraged pursuing him for a while. For G-man, at first he was just annoying but by the day LC was lynched I was fully convinced that both were bad and wanted to lynch both asap.

I thought the points I have yet to defend are nijuu's angry case I am on team webber, and dfaraday's comment that I am oppurtunistic. Can you point out the wild horn accusations that I haven't addressed that you are supposedly waiting for?

Actually her points are just that I am opportunistic too. Same as dfaradays, who she is also defending by calling the suspicion of him a distraction from me.

I don't see my votes as opportunistic. Voting Gman to save LC, if I was LC's teammate would have been absolute suicide. With the amount of heat LC was taking since the start of the game it would be stupid for any teammate to try and save him. I also think if I were on that team it would have been stupid to recruit BR after I blatantly defended her early. I at least understand that suspicion more, but it would have been a terrible move for me, and I'd like to think you don't all think I am that shitty of a player.
I don't see me or anyone else agreeing to the Sig or Gman case as opportunistic. Both were super obvious. There wasn't much else to be said there.

[nijuukyugou]

Oh wow the case on Hedge is a really really strong one. I think she and splints are both very likely to be on wildhorn. So I'll vote for one of them but I'll wait to see if splints comes back to defend. (Or Hedge too but she seems not to be around?)

Golden, I'm not on team webber. I was highly suspicious of both Sig and Gman by the time each was lynched, and I was fairly vocal about it. For Sig, I may have been on the late side to get to the actual vote, but I had been repeating his name as a suspect for a long time -- I think I was one of the first people to tag onto the case someone (sloonei?) initially made and encouraged pursuing him for a while. For G-man, at first he was just annoying but by the day LC was lynched I was fully convinced that both were bad and wanted to lynch both asap.

I thought the points I have yet to defend are nijuu's angry case I am on team webber, and dfaraday's comment that I am oppurtunistic. Can you point out the wild horn accusations that I haven't addressed that you are supposedly waiting for?

Actually her points are just that I am opportunistic too. Same as dfaradays, who she is also defending by calling the suspicion of him a distraction from me.

I don't see my votes as opportunistic. Voting Gman to save LC, if I was LC's teammate would have been absolute suicide. With the amount of heat LC was taking since the start of the game it would be stupid for any teammate to try and save him. I also think if I were on that team it would have been stupid to recruit BR after I blatantly defended her early. I at least understand that suspicion more, but it would have been a terrible move for me, and I'd like to think you don't all think I am that shitty of a player.
I don't see me or anyone else agreeing to the Sig or Gman case as opportunistic. Both were super obvious. There wasn't much else to be said there.

Thanks for responding! I don't think you're a shitty player at all - I think you'd be a rather good mafia for sneaking around for so long I see what you're saying, but one could make the opposite argument regarding BR's recruitment - that because you defended her for so long, she could be a great recruit for some good ol' fashioned WIFOM. Your defense does give me some pause, but there were plenty of people to hide with who also voted G-Man during LC's lynch.

I'm liking these points on Hedgeowl, however, and the idea of our absent player being a rather absent Wildhorn player. My vote will go to her or splints today.

I'm here, off and on. Based on what I've read and been thinking about, I'm most likely to vote fingersplints. Personally, I think all this talk about DFaraday is a distraction and seems too easy again, but I'll read the stuff on him over again anyway.

Soooooo....if DFaraday is a distraction, who is doing the distracting? Shouldn't that be where your vote is going?

Hmm, good point. I was thinking the points on him and his DF-ness reminded me of the points being made by several people about Bass' lack of participation and general Bass-ness (at least what I've noticed in the last few games I've played with him) in lynching him. These players have made cases or points against DF since Bass' lynch and actually, now that I notice, after I made a case on splints:
- SVS (comments on his wishy-washy ideas on me)
- JJJ (makes a case)
- nutella (agrees with JJJ, explains but doesn't add commentary when questioned about her agreement. Noted that she expresses suspicion of splints, too, but she is "conflicted and confused")
- Golden (agrees with JJJ, adds commentary)
- Scotty (agrees with JJJ, adds commentary)

I'd be willing to bet at least one is mafia pushing away from splints, but I'll be honest - I dunno who, and I'd need more concentrated time to look into it that I don't currently have before the poll's ending. It would also depend on DF's alignment, but since I'm leaning civ on DF and I've got that bias, that's where my opinion stands. It just bothers me that when splints is brought up, it seems that the subject is changed quickly to someone else, often an "easy" target. Thoughts?

[Golden]

I voted hedge. Was intending to hold out longer, but I need to get some sleep.

[nijuukyugou]

I'm going for splints.

[Epignosis]

I'm going for splints.

Mmm...

...I appreciate free thought and everything, but I'd have sure rather you'd voted Hedgeowl than fingersplints.

mmm hmm.

[Spacedaisy]

I went ahead and voted hedgie. I found the cases presented on her to be compelling and I feel the most civ vibe from Golden atm so I am most comfortable placing a vote with him.

[nijuukyugou]

I'm going for splints.

Mmm...

...I appreciate free thought and everything, but I'd have sure rather you'd voted Hedgeowl than fingersplints.

mmm hmm.

Go on then wit'cha bad self - you still have a vote. She was my second choice.

[Epignosis]

More people have not voted than have.

Maybe I will tie it up.

[fingersplints]

I think there is quite a few who will likely miss the vote

[Epignosis]

I think there is quite a few who will likely miss the vote

You don't say?

[Marmot]

More people have not voted than have.

Maybe I will tie it up.

Bully you.

[fingersplints]

Vote hedgeowl. I think the case is solid, and much better then the case on the second highest vote getter.

[Epignosis]

I hope Dom posts soon.

I can't wait for 3J to tear us a new one if we're wrong.

[Marmot]

I hope Dom posts soon.

I can't wait for 3J to tear us a new one if we're wrong.

I didn't even know he was playing. He hasn't spoken in a while.

[Dom]

Act One, Scene Ten

ENTER HEDgEOWL

HEDGEOWL: Composing for a musical is about character--we have to know who they are. So it's sitting down with Alfred Uhry and talking about what is this moment about, and how do we say what we want to say with it. At their best, the songs and the story all work as one wonderful thing. My job as a composer is to make the music part of the vision.

ENTER METALMARSH89

MM89: Didn't you write that shite about cowboys?

HEDGEOWL IS SO SCARED OF HER IMPENDING DOOM, SHE HAS A HEARTATTACK ON THE SPOT.

EXIT
Hedgeowl has been lynched. She was Jason Robert Brown.
It is now Night 10. You have 24 Hours to get PMs in.



And unless otherwise stated, yes, you can tell if you were targeted.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[Dom]

ALSO THERE IS STILL ONE PRIZE AVAILABLE IN TRIVIA

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Living participants in the last three lynches (number of them participated in):

Metalmarsh (3)
Golden (3)
ninja (2)
nutella (2)
Spacedaisy (1)
Epignosis (1)
DFaraday (1)
fingersplints (1)

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I went ahead and voted hedgie. I found the cases presented on her to be compelling and I feel the most civ vibe from Golden atm so I am most comfortable placing a vote with him.

How is it possible to find any case "compelling" when you haven't gotten properly acquainted with the game?

I am playing! There is no way I will catch up on all those posts so I am just going from here. But I need sleep right now. I'll be back tomorrow you lovely people!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

More people have not voted than have.

Maybe I will tie it up.

I wish you had. Why'd you go with Hedge?

I don't suspect Hedgeowl.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Vote hedgeowl. I think the case is solid, and much better then the case on the second highest vote getter.

What was solid about the case?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

though Hedgeowl would later go on to vote for Long Con.

Marsh, why treat this extremely important point as though it is barely worth a minor caveat in a big ISO? That vote was a big deal, as I suggested earlier:

Give Hedge credit for a really solid Day 1 vote. She voted for LC (Mafia 2) and at the time, it made this the tally:

6 - Long Con
5 - Cobalt
5 - S~V~S

If she is a member of Mafia 2, then this vote was very bold (and probably unnecessary). It wouldn't have been hard at all to take advantage of Cobalt's early behavior and cast suspicion on him instead of LC to facilitate a Cobalt vote. But Hedge didn't do that. I don't think it's likely she's with Mafia 2. That still leaves an opening for Mafia 1 or one of the independent slots, but those possibilities will have to be judged on their own merits.

If your intent was to link Hedgeowl to Mafia 2 (Team Wildhorn), then this point should not have been glossed over. It was crucial, and a big reason why I eliminated her from candidacy for that team.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I understand the Watchmen game has recently started and there's buzz about it (it certainly looks fun), but I think we need to try to balance our effort between games a little better. This game has been a cadaver for too long, and we all owe it to Dom to give his setup a fair amount of attention. This game barely moved on Day 10 until the last couple hours, and even that was pretty slow. There's no way we're going to figure anything out if we don't actually play Mafia.

I say "we" here because I was guilty of this as well during RYM #87. Let's get more involved with this game regardless of our alignments and keep it that way.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I voted for DFaraday because when I re-examined the case against him during Day 10, I felt more strongly than I did initially. I think it's a pretty solid case and I don't think his responses were inspired, so could anyone tell me why the momentum against him slowed to a dead halt so suddenly?

I could be wrong about him obviously, but I expected him to at least be in contention for the Day 10 lynch.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I am perfectly content talking to myself, even if it means this thread becomes a string of Marina Diamandis all the way down the left margin

[Marmot]

I didn't feel super compelled by the case, but there were couple things that I saw. I'll admit that I did try to fit it all into my theory.

But this game has fallen into a rut, and I think you will have noticed it too, and I was just looking for something to spark discussion. Anything. I thought about looking at Team Webber, who has been more active, but I figured it would be easier to look at Team Wildhorn, and see how the active member(s) of Team Webber respond.

[Marmot]

I am perfectly content talking to myself, even if it means this thread becomes a string of Marina Diamandis all the way down the left margin

C-C-C-Combo Breaker

[Tangrowth]

Marina Diamandis is awesome.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I didn't feel super compelled by the case, but there were couple things that I saw. I'll admit that I did try to fit it all into my theory.

But this game has fallen into a rut, and I think you will have noticed it too, and I was just looking for something to spark discussion. Anything. I thought about looking at Team Webber, who has been more active, but I figured it would be easier to look at Team Wildhorn, and see how the active member(s) of Team Webber respond.

A few people joined your cause soon after you mounted the case. Who among them do you feel was the least sincere in doing so? If you're town (or even anti-town on a team other than Windhorn), then someone out there capitalized on you being wrong.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Marina Diamandis is awesome.

I promise to sing "Bubblegum Bitch" for y'all if the pace of this game picks up soon.

[Tangrowth]

Marina Diamandis is awesome.

I promise to sing "Bubblegum Bitch" for y'all if the pace of this game picks up soon.

Give the man what he wants.

[Marmot]

I didn't feel super compelled by the case, but there were couple things that I saw. I'll admit that I did try to fit it all into my theory.

But this game has fallen into a rut, and I think you will have noticed it too, and I was just looking for something to spark discussion. Anything. I thought about looking at Team Webber, who has been more active, but I figured it would be easier to look at Team Wildhorn, and see how the active member(s) of Team Webber respond.

A few people joined your cause soon after you mounted the case. Who among them do you feel was the least sincere in doing so? If you're town (or even anti-town on a team other than Windhorn), then someone out there capitalized on you being wrong.

Pretty much everyone that came in and stated "Wowie, these cases are so compelling, I can't even decide who to vote for between splints and Hedgeowl!"

I was surprised to see nutella claim that she and Hedgeowl were on Team Wildhorn with certainty. I didn't know there was reason to believe fingersplints was on that team. And then nutella didn't even vote.

Spacedaisy, well you already pointed her comments out. She just hopped in the game, and that post was her only post in the last 30 hours.

I don't see any reason to suspect Golden. Or rather, I see plenty of reason not to suspect Golden, and I haven't bothered considering him as a mafia.

[Marmot]

One important thing I intentionally left out of my original theory of Team Wildhorn that no one caught: I did not include any players that replaced in later in the game. This would include you JJJ, Spacedaisy, and SVS, but you were silenced, SVS wasn't around all day, but then there is Spacedaisy, who stated that the cases were "pretty compelling". If there's a nightkill tonight, I'd bet it's coming from her.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Am I correct that the minimum number of anti-town players is currently 2 for Team Webber, 2 for Team Windhorn, and 3 independents?

If so, that leaves only 8 townies. 8 vs. 2 vs. 2 vs. 1 vs. 1 vs. 1 is basically in line with the golden ratio (4 town to 1 mafia) for a closed setup, so this ship can definitely still be righted.

Of course that number will probably be a little different after the night phase.

[Marmot]

One important thing I intentionally left out of my original theory of Team Wildhorn that no one caught: I did not include any players that replaced in later in the game. This would include you JJJ, Spacedaisy, and SVS, but you were silenced, SVS wasn't around all day, but then there is Spacedaisy, who stated that the cases were "pretty compelling". If there's a nightkill tonight, I'd bet it's coming from her.

And to restate my theory for clarity, I proposed that Team Wildhorn was left with inactives which is up to and including inactives who have replaced in.

Linki: We shall see.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Pretty much everyone that came in and stated "Wowie, these cases are so compelling, I can't even decide who to vote for between splints and Hedgeowl!"

I was surprised to see nutella claim that she and Hedgeowl were on Team Wildhorn with certainty. I didn't know there was reason to believe fingersplints was on that team. And then nutella didn't even vote.

Agreed. I have no idea why nutella would express that theory with a strong degree of confidence. I also think it was silly all along to theorize about Hedgeowl being with Team Wildhorn, so that means anyone who adopted that case is suspicious to me.

I don't see any reason to suspect Golden. Or rather, I see plenty of reason not to suspect Golden, and I haven't bothered considering him as a mafia.

I haven't had a chance to fully case him yet, but I think there is a case to be mounted. He might have looked solid earlier in the game, but over the last few phases I have taken real issue with a lot of his content.

If you're not sure where to start looking when it comes to an anti-town theory for Golden, here's the obvious one: he either spearheaded or helped motivate three consecutive town lynches on Days 8, 9, and 10.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Anyway, I'll look into all of you goofballs tomorrow. I'm glad it's a 24 hour night phase.

[Marmot]

I haven't had a chance to fully case him yet, but I think there is a case to be mounted. He might have looked solid earlier in the game, but over the last few phases I have taken real issue with a lot of his content.

If you're not sure where to start looking when it comes to an anti-town theory for Golden, here's the obvious one: he either spearheaded or helped motivate three consecutive town lynches on Days 8, 9, and 10.

I'm not proud of it, but I'm just as guilty as Golden is, as I voted early and often in all those same lynches. Also, I confused Golden with Sloonei. I thought both baddie teams had attempted to nightkill Golden, but only Team Wildhorn had.

By the way, if you are looking at Golden, I'd suggest first looking at his case on TGG (later replaced by G-Man) here. To sum up what happened, Epignosis was nightkilled on Night 1 by Team Webber. Epignosis subbed back into the game on Day 2. TGG asked to be replaced, but also stated in a different thread he doesn't like dead players replacing back in. Golden saw it for what it was, as a salty baddie who saw his victim return.

I suggested recently that TGG proposed his teammates to bus him since he was quitting. Golden did not support the idea, even though I was not talking about him. Link.

I'm curious to hear what you think.

[Golden]

If you're not sure where to start looking when it comes to an anti-town theory for Golden, here's the obvious one: he either spearheaded or helped motivate three consecutive town lynches on Days 8, 9, and 10.

JJ, here is what I think.

I think if Bass didn't die, ninja did, and ninja is civ.

I think if hedge didn't die, probably DF did, and when I read DF back I don't agree with the case.

And I REALLY think I'm beginning to become suspicious of you for calling people anti-town just because they are involved in lynching civvies when there is literally no evidence that you have been voting for or casing people who are actually mafia either.

I personally think there is literally no case to be made that I am bad. I already responded to this last time. I also think if you read my post history carefully and thoroughly, someone as sharp as you can even figure out why...

So, put up or shut up. I don't want to hear you throw vague accusations around about me again until you have ISO'd and cased me, because you have now done it several days in a row...

Yesterday you got a, meh, can't expect JJ to have caught everything up, I can see why he isn't so ok with my last two days.

Today you get a full blown "I am now officially suspicious of you".

[Golden]

Here are some other questions you can answer JJ

Why did you vote nutella when you first turned up but don't seem to have her in the equation any more?
Why do you instantly presume hedgeowl is not Jekyll?

Why are you thinking we are even vaguely within the zone of talking about whether there is time to right this ship? Why are you presuming in coming to this view that independents are anti-town when we have seen no evidence of it?

Why would you have a problem taking out an absentee based on a pretty good case? What is your issue with hedgeowl being on wildhorn? What is it about MM's case you disagree with so vehemently that you think that was not a good vote? Who do you think civilian golden ought to have voted for?

[Golden]

We had 15 people left, of those, 4 are not actually playing.

For me, lynching one of those 4 when I think there is a decent case to do so is increasing town odds. The mafia might kill each other, but they certainly won't be killing the non-players.

I'm not at all uncomfortable with my choice of vote and I won't apologise for it. Especially not when, as I say, we do not know she isn't jekyll.

[Marmot]

I think you may acknowledge it too Golden, but this game has stuttered as of late. Cases have dwindled in quantity. Votes are being missed. Night actions as well. Post counts in general have subsided.

We also lynched 3 baddies and 1 Indy in the first 5 days. We've lynched 1 baddie and 4 civvies in the last 5 days. But the lack of successful nightkilling has kept us very much in it.

[Golden]

I do acknowledge it. The game has stuttered. But JJ knows very well that I am not the kind of player to decide to stop having opinions when the game has stuttered. I cased basically my entire suspect list during that day period and that included my own read back of hedgeowl, and I voted for the one whose post history I found most suspicious.

What I don't like right now is that JJ's accusations, his approach to trying to figure out who is bad right now, is obviously going to catch the vocal people. How could it not, really? People like you and me are naturally likely to end up being lynch 'leaders' when the thread is so dead, no matter what our affiliation is. And I think JJJ knows this well.

That's part of why I am saying I have no regrets voting hedge. I've been bothered by the general lack of players in this game for a long time. I'd been holding out for a set of modkills or something. And I think your analysis of the night kill was really good in pointing to potential absentees being on wildhorn.

[Marmot]

Unless there's anything else you wish to talk about Golden, I don't plan on doing any more game-related stuff this night phase. I'll be gone all day tomorrow camping, so I'll just hold off until Sunday if I'm still alive and not silenced.

JJJ was right though. I forced some points on the Hedgeowl case, so I take full responsibility for her lynch. I was just hoping someone would come in and tell me it was bullshit. Nobody did. My apologies to Hedgeowl.

[Golden]

JJ, what do you mean about hedge's vote creating that tally on day one? I do not think it is possible for that to be correct, and the only way I can see you thinking that is if you ignore that votes were changeable in that poll.

When hedge voted LC, my vote was already on SVS. I moved it to hedge after hedge voted to avoid a tie. There was a lot of stuff going down on day one with the shifting changeable votes, and to use the day one vote poll as a weapon for why hedge wasn't on team 2 would have been foolhardy, I ignored that part of your case because I knew it to be incorrect.

[nutella]

Oh my god I can't believe I fucked up AGAIN. Just like the other time, I was saving my vote for when I got back from work, and then immediately got distracted by friends (we went to see Ant-Man which was HILARIOUS). So sorry I missed it. I honestly can't say for sure whether I would have ended up going for Hedge or Splints. I see Splints finally actually defended herself, I still have an eye on her but am not as confident.