Day 12 ~ 2015 Game of Champions

[DharmaHelper]

I understand the question was bait, but at the time you asked it, surely you would have expected a response. At the time you asked, nobody knew it was a bait question. So given that, they would indicate to you "which team", how exactly?

The question itself is a poison pill, is what I'm getting at. You suspect JC for saying that you suggested the teams were named, which you didn't explicitly, but you can't in turn suspect her when "which team is he on" requires a distinction between teams.

No, I was not. My expectations are not the same as yours.

Juliets suggested that I knew what the team names are, not just that I know that there are names.

Do you know what names have been given to any mafia teams in this game?

I don't. I do see what you are saying regarding why JC says she suspects you. I get that part. I think we're not quite connecting our points here.

You're saying it is unreasonable for JC to suggest that you knew what the names are. Which I get.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Cool well as long as llama willfully ignores me I'm gonna go ahead and continue trying to guide him to the guillotine.

[a2thezebra]

Cool well as long as llama willfully ignores me I'm gonna go ahead and continue trying to guide him to the guillotine.

Could you clarify why you thought/think that he cursed you?

[RadicalFuzz]

Faraday when you say I read civvie so you're not pinged by my "strange alignment comments" what comments are you referring to?

Oh thank god he wasn't just being a giant idiot.

Llama, explain how we "lost a civilian?" His unkillable role from which he literally can't be targeted and will therefore be able to advise as a mod-confirmed civilian for the everlasting future of the game is an unfavorable outcome? I honestly think this went better than lynching scum Day 1, as Rico would surely be lynched later down the line for his actions up to this point.

Because he's dead? He died. He is no more. He is an ex-Rico. He's pushing up the daisies. He's shuffled off the mortal coil and gone to join the choir invisible.

Ricochet has been lynched. He was Jacob Donner, a civilian.

If Jacob Donner is lynched on Day 1, he will die, revealing his full role. If this occurs, Donner may continue to post on-topic as if he were alive, but he cannot vote and cannot be targeted by any abilities or items.

I don't see why this is so hard for everyone. He's not an unkillable role, he's dead. Yeah, it's great that Rico can still help out with analysis, but we lost a civ vote, and our numbers are one fewer versus the mafia. Forgive me for not celebrating.

Let me phrase this event in a different light. Normal Day 1 lynches are crapshoots, for the most part. Mafia getting lynched is uncommon and there's the risk of lynching a strong civilian role. Rico's role could prevent that by offering himself as a martyr while we still keep a confirmed townie analyst for the rest of the game. But you insist this outcome is worse than hoping we've found scum in the 30+ pages of Rico trying to get lynched by misrepresenting everyone's arguments?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Cool well as long as llama willfully ignores me I'm gonna go ahead and continue trying to guide him to the guillotine.

Could you clarify why you thought/think that he cursed you?

I don't know whether llama did that. Maybe llama has team mates.

I was a threat to nobody on Night 0, being so vocally detached and lazy as I was. I made exactly one case against someone that was remotely substantive, that being llama. Llama addressed some posts in the general vicinity of that case, but never responded to anything I said. At any point. The next day I was posting in emoticons. Maybe there's a connection. Even if not, his ignorance of me is clearly deliberate at this point and I don't think town llama has any reason to ignore me. I've done nothing to insult him in any prior game, and I have not been a significant part of this game's torrent pace -- so I haven't annoyed him either. All I've done is cast suspicion upon him, both in the form of Night 0 text and Day 1 emojis.

He hasn't given me the time of day. I think he should become dead as soon as possible.

[a2thezebra]

He may just feel antagonized by you. To be honest I don't think he's yet to say or do anything alignment-indicative.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

One area in which I agree with llama is that a mafia lynch would have been better than the Rico lynch. I think this is pretty obvious honestly -- Rico's ability enables him to be of long-term service which is great, but at the cost of his slot on the numbers roster and his voting power. That's not good enough to make it a "better" result than a dead mafioso, an immediate head start in the numbers battle.

But whatever. This discussion doesn't have much value IMO. It's over. Rico was lynched, and now we're in this scenario. It's a better lynch than 99% of town lynches would be, so let's take advantage of it and play on.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

He may just feel antagonized by you. To be honest I don't think he's yet to say or do anything alignment-indicative.

No. It's his job to say that. He has not. He has said nothing. Epignosis even clearly stated to him that I was suspicious, and he dismissed it without a care. That only makes any sense to me for a town llama if he thinks I am a pushover who doesn't need to be acknowledged because I am garbage at Mafia and not worth dealing with -- I doubt he feels that way.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

He may just feel antagonized by you. To be honest I don't think he's yet to say or do anything alignment-indicative.

No. It's his job to say that. He has not. He has said nothing. Epignosis even clearly stated to him that I was suspicious of him, and he dismissed it without a care. That only makes any sense to me for a town llama if he thinks I am a pushover who doesn't need to be acknowledged because I am garbage at Mafia and not worth dealing with -- I doubt he feels that way.

[thellama73]

Sorry, JJJ. I missed this post.

Hey llama, you were almost certainly aware of my beef with you on Night 0 (you acknowledged other posts in the same vicinity), but never even acknowledged my existence. Then on Day 1 I made it as clear as possible under the circumstances that I wanted your attention and you still ignored me. Why?

I didn't respond to your case on Night 0 because I didn't see how I could respond to it. Not a lot there I could actually rebut, since it was based on tone readings and the like. I didn't comment on your smiley stuff Day 1 because I had no idea what you were saying except that you suspected me and possibly thought I cursed you. I didn't though. You seem like a nice guy.

[RadicalFuzz]

I've seen this role do fantastic things before, and Rico appears to be good at this game if you guys are any factor, so that's why I'm so happy.

Can't you tell?

[a2thezebra]

One area in which I agree with llama is that a mafia lynch would have been better than the Rico lynch.

For the record, I agree (as I think most do, apparently unbeknownst to you and llama) that a mafia lynch would be preferable. What I don't agree with is that the result we got is something to grieve over. Hence, "tomorrow is another day."

[thellama73]

Cool well as long as llama willfully ignores me I'm gonna go ahead and continue trying to guide him to the guillotine.

Could you clarify why you thought/think that he cursed you?

I don't know whether llama did that. Maybe llama has team mates.

I was a threat to nobody on Night 0, being so vocally detached and lazy as I was. I made exactly one case against someone that was remotely substantive, that being llama. Llama addressed some posts in the general vicinity of that case, but never responded to anything I said. At any point. The next day I was posting in emoticons. Maybe there's a connection. Even if not, his ignorance of me is clearly deliberate at this point and I don't think town llama has any reason to ignore me. I've done nothing to insult him in any prior game, and I have not been a significant part of this game's torrent pace -- so I haven't annoyed him either. All I've done is cast suspicion upon him, both in the form of Night 0 text and Day 1 emojis.

He hasn't given me the time of day. I think he should become dead as soon as possible.

I'm sorry if you think I have treated you with disrespect, JJJ. I've always enjoyed my interactions with you in previous games. You've done nothing to annoy or antagonize me. I just didn't have anything useful to say about your case or your curse.

[DFaraday]

I've seen this role do fantastic things before, and Rico appears to be good at this game if you guys are any factor, so that's why I'm so happy.

Can't you tell?

Not to knock Rico's ability, but since he has no knowledge of who the baddies are (I assume), I don't see how it's much more helpful than if Rico were still alive and commenting. At least he'd have his vote then.

But I guess this is better than any other civ being lynched.

[DrWilgy]

Voted Marmot!

[DharmaHelper]

LoRab and llama have not butted heads over who is the better writer and poster.

confirmed fishy

I think I'm cool with lynching llama first. I hope I don't forget by the time I have to vote.

Which team do you think he is on?

[LoRab]

Good job getting lynched Rico.

Voted brown bear because I like that book and bears are almost cute.

[juliets]

Metalmarsh here is the question I asked you. Note that I am not asking the same questions you already answered. I'm wanting to know what was in your head when you picked the word "which" when you framed the question.

MM, your question to him was "which team do you think he is on?". That sounds like you not only know there are two teams (i know you responded to this already) but that you knew what the team names were. What made you use the word "which"? And what did you expect in return from JJJ that would be an example of "which"? I hope you understand what I am asking. If not, let me know.

Sorry I never responded juliets. I've been playing much of this game so far on my phone, and just must be missing posts.

Anyway, to answer your questions.

• 1) I have no idea how many teams there are. That was an intentional "slip" to see how folks responded.
  2) I did not know that the mafia team(s) have names. Your suggestion of that is very suspicious imo. I did not imply that I knew it either.
  3) I expected Jay to be far more aggressive in his response, since the number of mafia teams is unknown, and I implied that I knew how many there were. Then again, Jay was acting apathetic before I asked the question, so I don't know what to make of it. Different Jay =/= mafia Jay.

And to add, Matt did propose the same case that you did, that I slipped, and must be mafia. But he took a pretty hesitant approach to it. The Matt I remember from Talking Heads would have dogged me all day and all game over something like that.


Juliets, where did you get the idea that the mafia team(s) have names?

I've never played a game where the mafia teams haven't had names. It just made sense that since you were indicating you thought there was more than one team you also thought the teams would have names. I think you admitted to this during the discussion that has taken place.

zebra and DH have hit precisely on my reasons for asking you the question so i don't feel we need to rehash that. Thanks to the two of you for reading my mind while I wasn't here. I do think the root of the miscommunication here is that you asked the question to see what reactions there were to the question, not to get a specific answer to the "which" question. You didn't expect a response to the question. (That's a little hard for me to understand but I take you at your word). I, on the other hand, read the question as one where you were looking for a specific answer and didn't understand how someone could be expected to answer a "which" question without knowledge of names of the parties from which he would choose. I wouldn't have asked the question if I had realized you were just looking for reactions about the question.

The only thing I can't understand is why you think I'm suspicious for asking the question. As games go on I ask lots of questions. Some of them represent misunderstanding which sounds like the case here. Thats why I ask, to cull out those issues and get to the real issues.

If you feel we need further discussion about this just let me know.

As far as the vote goes for today, I think I'll vote for spider monkey. I have no idea who that could be and we don't even know if the person attached to it receives something good, something bad, or nothing at all. We don't even know for sure if someone is attached to animal. So Spider monkey it is.

[DharmaHelper]

Metalmarsh here is the question I asked you. Note that I am not asking the same questions you already answered. I'm wanting to know what was in your head when you picked the word "which" when you framed the question.

MM, your question to him was "which team do you think he is on?". That sounds like you not only know there are two teams (i know you responded to this already) but that you knew what the team names were. What made you use the word "which"? And what did you expect in return from JJJ that would be an example of "which"? I hope you understand what I am asking. If not, let me know.

Sorry I never responded juliets. I've been playing much of this game so far on my phone, and just must be missing posts.

Anyway, to answer your questions.

• 1) I have no idea how many teams there are. That was an intentional "slip" to see how folks responded.
  2) I did not know that the mafia team(s) have names. Your suggestion of that is very suspicious imo. I did not imply that I knew it either.
  3) I expected Jay to be far more aggressive in his response, since the number of mafia teams is unknown, and I implied that I knew how many there were. Then again, Jay was acting apathetic before I asked the question, so I don't know what to make of it. Different Jay =/= mafia Jay.

And to add, Matt did propose the same case that you did, that I slipped, and must be mafia. But he took a pretty hesitant approach to it. The Matt I remember from Talking Heads would have dogged me all day and all game over something like that.


Juliets, where did you get the idea that the mafia team(s) have names?

I've never played a game where the mafia teams haven't had names. It just made sense that since you were indicating you thought there was more than one team you also thought the teams would have names. I think you admitted to this during the discussion that has taken place.

zebra and DH have hit precisely on my reasons for asking you the question so i don't feel we need to rehash that. Thanks to the two of you for reading my mind while I wasn't here. I do think the root of the miscommunication here is that you asked the question to see what reactions there were to the question, not to get a specific answer to the "which" question. You didn't expect a response to the question. (That's a little hard for me to understand but I take you at your word). I, on the other hand, read the question as one where you were looking for a specific answer and didn't understand how someone could be expected to answer a "which" question without knowledge of names of the parties from which he would choose. I wouldn't have asked the question if I had realized you were just looking for reactions about the question.

The only thing I can't understand is why you think I'm suspicious for asking the question. As games go on I ask lots of questions. Some of them represent misunderstanding which sounds like the case here. Thats why I ask, to cull out those issues and get to the real issues.

If you feel we need further discussion about this just let me know.

As far as the vote goes for today, I think I'll vote for spider monkey. I have no idea who that could be and we don't even know if the person attached to it receives something good, something bad, or nothing at all. We don't even know for sure if someone is attached to animal. So Spider monkey it is.

Cuz it's a crock of shit basically.

[DharmaHelper]

To summarize:

MM asked a question in order to see how people would react, but in his plan he forgot to account for the reaction of people actually answering the question? All that matters to him is the reaction to the question he asked, but he did not expect, having asked a question in a game of questions and answers, to receive answers in any capacity.

Speaking of questions and answers, MM could not answer (and indeed attempted to completely dodge) my question regarding what it was he would have considered an acceptable response to his bait-question.

Crock. of. total. shit.

[a2thezebra]

Crock of total shit yes, but to what end?

[Turnip Head]

2 hours to get your PM's in. Hurry up

[DharmaHelper]

2 hours to get your PM's in. Hurry up

[a2thezebra]

Dharma. I have a question for you. What do you think MM is trying to achieve with his crock of total shit?

[DharmaHelper]

Dharma. I have a question for you. What do you think MM is trying to achieve with his crock of total shit?

It could be that his question wasn't bait, but he's using the "bait" defense as an excuse after taking some flak.

[Golden]

My goal was to figure out whether there is 1 mafia team or more, and potentially discover who might be mafia. I believe there are two mafia teams. I think three is far-fetched, and one would be "less fun". Also I know I had a discussion with SVS about multiple mafia teams before. I believe she had stated that she prefers smaller teams, but I'm having trouble finding this conversation.

My experience of SVS as a host is that she prefers two teams. I do think it is possible in closed setups to have an educated guess at some mechanics based on the host. Just not rely on them.

[a2thezebra]

Dharma. I have a question for you. What do you think MM is trying to achieve with his crock of total shit?

It could be that his question wasn't bait, but he's using the "bait" defense as an excuse after taking some flak.

Good point, that's possible.

[Ricochet]

Ermahgad you people still can't stop talking about me.

Now that Rico's sane, I'm curious what his actual reads and thoughts on the game are.

I'm having a good time abroad and then it's quickly back to work next week, so you will not get serious activity from me until late Monday.

Although, reading the reactions so far (for which I expect neither praise or damning, really), it makes me hope some of the respondents are baddies, because some of the reactions sound fairly corny and fake.

Also reading through the reactions, I'd be interested in an exercise: everyone should claim if you picked up what I was up to and just played along with lynching me or if you genuinely got rused by my actions. There's no sentimental value on my behalf in this inquiry, simply claim how you (plural, of course) played your part.

Ricochet has been lynched. He was Jacob Donner, a civilian.

If Jacob Donner is lynched on Day 1, he will die, revealing his full role. If this occurs, Donner may continue to post on-topic as if he were alive, but he cannot vote and cannot be targeted by any abilities or items.

I don't see why this is so hard for everyone. He's not an unkillable role, he's dead. Yeah, it's great that Rico can still help out with analysis, but we lost a civ vote, and our numbers are one fewer versus the mafia. Forgive me for not celebrating.

Very semanticky. You can choose to call or consider me what you like, but since I am able to continue posting on topic, I don't consider myself a dead player, but an active one. Death itself was a process that occured (i.e. was successful, effective) through lynch and further activated my role. Please remember that this role was created with a purpose by the game designers and I myself have played my role's purpose with purpose. As for what was gained or lost, this is how things work in Mafia. It's called balance. You can't have a "whole-cake" role.

Once again, if for you the definition of a civilian is his vote, I have already commented on how, whenever I was civilian, my votes were mostly erroneous and my vote blunders (either never showing up on a baddie's lynch or influencing a mislynch) distracted the civvie cause by getting me into trouble of getting lynched, instead of actual baddies being hunted. So me losing this priviledge is, in theory and based on previous stats, precisely the equivalent of "better off" and "getting out of the way", oh mighty bold and principled civvie.

Anyway, interesting switch from applauding, to a certain point, all my bullsuit thread stirring and buddying with me in return for my buddying with you (which in any game in the history of mankind would be the most unplausible sight ever) to acting sour about this result. Yes, we get it, you constantly think you are capable of catching baddies on D1; I have seen you pull that off only once during the entire year (Sloonei in Watchmen), at least in the games we played together, but whatever. I don't remember your sig case catching any real traction and you were second wagon at the end of the Day and I doubt my actions influenced these things entirely, but keep telling me about how baddies were close to being caught on D1 (unless you are one, heh).

I still don't get (and you left this part out this time) your previous comment on "past behaviour" being a sign of "future behaviour". Either it's an entirely confusing statement or you seem to imply that I plan to fuck with the civvie cause further. Explain how, in that case.

Important questions: does Rico still win if the Civs win? Does Rico's existence still count in the number of Civs and baddies when endgame arrives?

Yes to the first question.
I don't know how to answer (or have no answer to) the second.

[nijuukyugou]

I am behind. Surprise!

I plan to catch up tonight after my dinner guests have left. For now, so I don't miss the poll, I'll go ahead and vote for the bear. Fuzzy and ferocious!

[Golden]

Also reading through the reactions, I'd be interested in an exercise: everyone should claim if you picked up what I was up to and just played along with lynching me or if you genuinely got rused by my actions. There's no sentimental value on my behalf in this inquiry, simply claim how you (plural, of course) played your part.

I believed there were two possibilities to what you were doing. One was that lynching you would give you power, one was that you were playing wifom.

I felt that either way lynching you would be the best choice. I didn't expect you would actually flip if you were bad. I was absolutely sure your behaviour was linked to your role in some fashion.

Civ pleasantly surprised me, though.

[DrWilgy]

Are you and Fuzz on the same team Niju?

[a2thezebra]

For the record, I was genuinely rused by your actions. I thought you were baddie mcbadderson.

[Golden]

@JJJ - when talking in smilies I couldn't really tell but I felt like your was indicating you had at least a mild suspicion of me.

Could you talk more about this please.

[Golden]

Also, ordinarily I would maybe call a mafia lynch better than this result but the specific reason I think this is better is that the only way it could happen is on day one. So Rico had to make it happen that day or we would lose the resource.

I would have preferred a mafia lynch if rico's role was simply 'whenever you die, you get this ability'. But I far prefer it when civs take advantage of the opportunities they have.

I agree that Long Con's questions on the matter could use some answers. Rico, do you have the answers? Otherwise, we might need to hope for host clarification.

[Boomslang]

Well, I had no idea this lynch result was even possible, but I'm pretty pleased by it. I think having a confirmed civ as a discussion resource is worth more than people realize: we all now know exactly where Rico's opinions are coming from, and the way people agree/disagree with his arguments take on a lot more meaning.

Regarding the night poll, I'm going to vote for Bos taurus because, like Boomslang, it starts with B. Disappointed there's no Dispholidus typus option :P

[Ricochet]

I agree that Long Con's questions on the matter could use some answers. Rico, do you have the answers? Otherwise, we might need to hope for host clarification.

I'm not withholding any information with LC's second question. I really don't know how to answer that. If I don't show up in the poll on D2, that'll be clarifying. If I do, we'll see about the endgame issue.

[a2thezebra]

During your rampage of silliness yesterday Rico, who did you genuinely suspect?

[Golden]

I agree that Long Con's questions on the matter could use some answers. Rico, do you have the answers? Otherwise, we might need to hope for host clarification.

I'm not withholding any information with LC's second question. I really don't know how to answer that. If I don't show up in the poll on D2, that'll be clarifying. If I do, we'll see about the endgame issue.

I missed your answer the first time. I assumed the first was true, its the only way to make the role fun. The second is the more important one, though.

[Ricochet]

During your rampage of silliness yesterday Rico, who did you genuinely suspect?

Off the top of my head, the rebuttals in which I actually blended flipping out with actually having an issue with the casemakin' were towards LoRab and juliets. I felt LoRab plainly picked up others' suspicion, which is uncharacteristic of her. I was also genuinely confused by how juliets can suspect LoRab for the things she is also doing (working with other players' material). Tranq's EoD felt very shady, tbh. I could add Dom's wagoning in the mix perhaps, but thing is Dom's D1 has been docile, and that doesn't show up in my baddie reads of Dom. I probably partly influenced him to take such an approach, but it is what it is now.

[a2thezebra]

Huh, none of the players you mentioned have caught my suspicion yet.

[a2thezebra]

I think you're bad.

[Ricochet]

Serious question now, how long should we wait for a sign of life from b24? I have him written down as gradually warming up his hunt game when civ. What's his dark side?

[Golden]

Serious question now, how long should we wait for a sign of life from b24? I have him written down as gradually warming up his hunt game when civ. What's his dark side?

In Star Wars, he was very vocal and hunty early. The only other game I can remember that he was bad was RYM87 (Stock Photos), where he was under the pump from fairly early for coming across as disingenuous, but it was only his second game after having a supatown debut. I find his absences far more real life related than affiliation, in my experience.

[juliets]

During your rampage of silliness yesterday Rico, who did you genuinely suspect?

Off the top of my head, the rebuttals in which I actually blended flipping out with actually having an issue with the casemakin' were towards LoRab and juliets. I felt LoRab plainly picked up others' suspicion, which is uncharacteristic of her. I was also genuinely confused by how juliets can suspect LoRab for the things she is also doing (working with other players' material). Tranq's EoD felt very shady, tbh. I could add Dom's wagoning in the mix perhaps, but thing is Dom's D1 has been docile, and that doesn't show up in my baddie reads of Dom. I probably partly influenced him to take such an approach, but it is what it is now.

Let me see if I can clear this up. This is the line in Epig's post that finally clicked for me as far as Lorab was concerned. It's not the only issue but it is the issue at question here:

"What is it about Ricochet that others have pointed out that Lorab "definitely" sees? With Ricochet being the author of almost a quarter (!) of the thread's posts, this is as unspecific as it gets."

In other words, she was using thoughts of others but she didn't name the others or the specific issues that led her to her suspicions. This to me sounded like something a baddie would do, make the suspicion as broad as possible and only find some specifics if someone asks for them.

In contrast, I provided specifics both for why I wasn't at the time suspecting Rico anymore and why I was suspecting Lorab based on things others had brought to the table. There is a difference in these two examples. The issue was about specifics with Lorab. I was specific in my suspicion.

I feel the need to add here that as I've said before I no longer suspect Lorab because when she addressed what Epig and Sorsha had said I felt she was sincere and was satisfied with her answer.

[a2thezebra]

sig is bad.

[a2thezebra]

[a2thezebra]

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM this pasta is delicious

I sure do love me some radiatore

Life is great

[a2thezebra]

What a wonderful thing, to live. You get to eat, you get to sleep, you get to cry, you get to make friends...I hope I live for a long, long time.

[Ricochet]

Are you the Night to my Day, zebra?

But seriously what the fuck

[a2thezebra]

Hey Ricochet! It sure must suck being dead. But hey, at least you get to talk with everyone in the thread. On-topic, too. That must be nice. If I die, I sure hope I'm as lucky as you are! I don't think I'm going to die though. Like, ever.

So what's up? Have you met Beethoven yet? What's he like?