Jack Attack Mafia (Day 5)

[Long Con]

Wow.

[Long Con]

[VOTE: Long Con] aubergine

He yelled obnoxiously about the concern I stated regarding his 9:1 good:bad GTH reads ratio. He has treated me like confirmed mafia and refused to budge a hair without talking to me on the level about any of it.

Epignosis ripped LC for the same 9:1 ratio. LC responded to that with a joke about KitsuShel’s username.

LC’s suspicion of me is fake. It is driven by an agenda to challenge me and disrupt the game state I have helped to construct.

First of all, Epignosis asked a question. He didn't even accuse me of anything or try to put suspicion on me. There is not much similarity between your two posts except that they both discuss my GTH

I think this point is an important one, so I went back to get a closer look. The two comments in question:

• The "winner" of the Who Gave the Most Good Reads? sweepstakes is Long Con, at least by proportion. Otherwise it's me, but we don't care about that. No, no, we don't care about that. Unless @Long Con has multiple mafia reads among the four he missed, then there is a considerable shortage of suspicion there. That's not great, as I don't see much in his post history to this point that suggests to me he should have developed such a comfortable view of the game state.

I don't put much stock in this exercise either, but LC has one "bad" and it's Kitsushel? Over Colin and Wilgy?

Where you're right: Epignosis did not explicitly accuse you, and I did.

Where [I-think] you're not right: Epignosis did not "try to put suspicion on you". To me, that implication is very clear in Epignosis's question. Indeed, what is the point of asking this question otherwise? Why else would Epi ask it? Consider the preface: I don't put much stock in this exercise either, but...

That is an accusation. And it's the same accusation I made. Your disparate handling of each of them is difficult to see as honest.

Forgive me for considering your point of view on the matter biased, since you really want me to be bad here.

Let's ask Epignosis.

So why don't you ask me?

I've stated my opinion on you.

I kind of thought that saying "Let's ask Epignosis" would be enough of a prompt for you to get involved as though you had been asked.

[Long Con]

The two options right now should be LC or Sprit

Please trust me that it doesn’t make sense to save LC by killing FG, and I promise I’ll explain later when there’s not 15 minutes to EOD and a toddler that needs to go to bed

But your mechanical analysis excludes one important factor: love.

are you guys claiming lovers

No, that was just 100% a joke.

[Long Con]

Ending the day 15 minutes early may have had a major game effect. Votes were still fluid.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Yeah that’s pretty annoying

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

I thought there was gonna be a modkill or something, that’s pretty unfortunate we lost 10-15 minutes. Not thrilled.

[Millium]

ya I dont post during night phases, no thanks
all we got is Funny not flipping, which throws the read on her out the window

[mention]Funnygurl555[/mention]
simple question, did you or did you not know you weren't dying there?

[Millium]

What is that poll...

[Millium]

[mention]NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME[/mention]
ya I was in the middle of pushing your funny girl point, and then I tried to post, and the thread was closed.
My read going forwards depends on if she knew she wasn't dying

[Epignosis]

What is that poll...

The Clapper.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

weak

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The youtube video linked in the EOD post has a title that is suggestive. I don't know if I am supposed to care. HC Realms often has informative flavor. Maybe. [mention]TonyStarkPrime[/mention] whaddya think

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hi Pawn. Welcome to our next bout of nonsense

[Funnygurl555]

ya, thought we had 15 more minutes too

anyways see y'all tomorrow

[Hally]

oh there is night chat ok

uh

wtf happened

[Hally]

ya, thought we had 15 more minutes too

anyways see y'all tomorrow

why is this your reaction to getting yeeted but not dying

why are you unphased by this

did you know that would happen?

[Hally]

wtf is this game

we’re all slugs and jack is pouring salt on us and hee ho-ing as we melt

[Millium]

ya, thought we had 15 more minutes too

anyways see y'all tomorrow

answer my question!!!

[Hally]

if there is town with kp can you shoot fg tonight

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Funnygurl is mafia and the youtube link says we "almost caught her".

[Hally]

Funnygurl is mafia and the youtube link says we "almost caught her".

how do you glean from the video shes mafia?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Funnygurl is mafia and the youtube link says we "almost caught her".

how do you glean from the video shes mafia?

I glean from that post she just made that she's mafia, and the title/theme of the video confirm my bias.

[Hally]

Funnygurl is mafia and the youtube link says we "almost caught her".

how do you glean from the video shes mafia?

I glean from that post she just made that she's mafia, and the title/theme of the video confirm my bias.

oh ok

yea her non reaction is... sus as hell

[Hally]

HEE HO JACK MUST GO

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm going to share in greater detail why I think FG and LC fit together. I resisted expanding on any individual pre-flip associative read like this, but that non-flip is itself at least some kind of "evidence". It doesn't inherently make FG mafia, but I think she still can be -- and her reaction to it just now is not what I'd expect of a civilian.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Funnygurl555 and Long Con

From Funnygirl555:

Spoiler: show

JJJ is scum. He's played countless games with me and knows perfectly well that this is how my Day 1 generally goes. I don't tend to jump on a whole bunch of people with scumreads or add people to my "towncore". "Shortage of suspicion" from me should easily be identified as NAI, and the fact that he's trying to prod suspicion on me for it is solid proof that he's not on the level. He's generally trying too hard to do the Town JJJ Song & Dance and impress the newcomers, but I've played with him for years, and this is not town Jimmy. GTH exercise not even halfway into Day 1?? WTFmullet? What a dog and pony show, how many people hadn't even posted yet? GTH reads? Are you kidding me?

[VOTE: JJJ] aubergine and I don't really give a damn that I'll probably get lynched today for this. He's scum. Keep him around for the good times if you want.

yaaaaaas *claps*

also y'all kitsu named the three people i always see sus'd. naaaaah don't tr that slot yet

wisp is town

long con's town

I'm not going to townread FG for accusing the same person I did. Actually, I think I challenged FG in the same post I accused JJJ, but it was ignored.

what was the post? sry if i ignored it

tsp, nanook (hmmm), hally, alison (... hmmmm...), wisp, long con

my towns

i like daisy now

still not sold on kitsu being town

Ok, now we're getting a little mindmeldy.

[eyeballs image]

lc is townie town town town

lc is townie town town town

why?

look at that epi case

to me it feels like lc is simply hopping from one person to another to see where he can gain any traction

jay mildly susses him, lc screams for his head and votes him

some people tr kitsu, lc votes her not because he sr’s her but because he doesnt think she should be tr

jay asks lc what his read on epi is, lc pulls out suspicion on epi from nowhere and votes him

it all feels pretty unnatural tbh. im not seeing a town waterfall here, im seeing a wolfy plinko board

my counter to this is lc is looking outside of viable kill options atm and not the people with a substantial amount of votes

he could just be solving

not for an lc kill. thanks

vote still on sprit tho there is STILL a self vote

lc is town thx

This pile of quotes is comprehensive -- everything I see from FG that relates directly to Long Con. After Long Con gave me a rash of shit in his melodramatic episode, FG went for the gleeful mindmeld town read. She then promoted that read repeatedly in these frank, "LC is town" comments -- like she is just forcing that read into the thread consciousness like a TV commercial targeting the subconscious mind. She shoehorned that read, has spent none of her energy looking at alternatives, and gave him unconditional support. This is not on its own a clear indicator of a mafia teammate relationship, but it is behavior compatible with that world. Consider the actual posts that exist in this thread and whether or not it's believable that she would have this read by authentic means.

From Long Con:

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

1. not overreacting.

2. sprityo was killed last game i played because he was magically scum read by everyone except me basically. and he flipped town. do i think he's town now? i mean not necessarily. he's null for me

Are you sure you didn't just TMI slip a little on sprityo there?

jjj more like fff, 1 f for each person who has to be his wolf partner

Why are they f's? Like, for fuck?

This accusation Long Con leveled at FG looks fake to me. The tone and the content are both a problem -- the question is presented as a "concern", but it is almost rhetorical and does not give me the feeling that LC gives a damn about how she answers it. I also think the accusation itself is just bad. I don't see why FG's comment #2 there should be "TMI" about sprityo. Instead, I actually get that TMI vibe from Long Con. He reached too far for a generic distance prod against teammate Funnygurl and also revealed sprityo as a civilian (in this hypothetical scenario).

Spoiler: show

Mafia-aligned Long Con responded to suspicion from me with loud No Us in Take Me Out to the Ballgame.

Are LC and FG w/w in your mind?

Could be. I have no reason off-hand to say they are not.

They'd have to both be pursuing the same strategy with little interaction between the two of them and without a glance to anything else. Seems too on the nose.

i was thinking earlier their non-interaction seems weird though? they both scum read jay but i dont see them acting like they “found” each other like id expect from two town in that position?

idk i think theres probably one wolf in those two at least

I'm not going to townread FG for accusing the same person I did. Actually, I think I challenged FG in the same post I accused JJJ, but it was ignored.

I think Hally's grievance in this exchange is a valid one. Even if Long Con isn't eager to hand out civilian credit, it's striking that he did not do anything with FG's suspicion of me. To that point, there hadn't been much of that in this game, and there ought to be some sense of camaraderie in between these two. That's not "definite", but it's what I would expect. Instead of acknowledging her suspicion, he swatted away that opportunity to be connected to her and then reiterated his suspicion -- perhaps a nudge to reinforce what he'd meant to serve as distancing.

Spoiler: show

Are LC and FG w/w in your mind?

Could be. I have no reason off-hand to say they are not.

They'd have to both be pursuing the same strategy with little interaction between the two of them and without a glance to anything else. Seems too on the nose.

i was thinking earlier their non-interaction seems weird though? they both scum read jay but i dont see them acting like they “found” each other like id expect from two town in that position?

idk i think theres probably one wolf in those two at least

I'm not going to townread FG for accusing the same person I did. Actually, I think I challenged FG in the same post I accused JJJ, but it was ignored.

why though? if jay is lock scum to you and fg suspects jay and jay suspects both of you like... how does that not make fg town fypov?

Because I could be wrong about Jay and he's town and she's scum.

I don't think LC necessarily must view FG as a civilian in this scenario. This response though is just weak. Also contrast this with his actual treatment of me before the very end of the day phase.

It wasn't "I could be wrong about Jay". It was "I am going to scream bloody murder about Jay even if it gets me chopped".

So this little paranoia take on FG "if he's wrong" strikes me as an inconsistency of mindset. Again, he might already know that he has just uttered a truth.

Spoiler: show

Just noting quickly that LC did not complete the GTH reads, and the final grouping he missed included FG. It's kinda weird that he thought we were done before he finished, and then did not immediately see that everyone else participating was posting their responses to the final block of names. Whatever, that's for y'all to decide.

Spoiler: show

Tosses bad reads on low posters in GTH, the only mildly interesting call is his bad on FG, which I guess is based on the line above this one. More funnygurl shade soon follows, for posting but "saying nothing".

Then he votes for DrWilgy, which is, as I said yesterday when looking over Wilgy's meagre ISO, super-weak. What happened to the almost 100% funnygurl-only suspicion line? Was that just for w/w show?

This is a line extracted from LC's case against Epignosis. When I was doing the blind interactions for FG/LC, this was the moment that most triggered me. That orange bit looks so utterly fake to me, and that he's jumping straight to "w/w" again bears the appearance of TMI to me (that he at least knows half of that pair is mafia).

Spoiler: show

Funnygurl maybe should live. I mindmelded with her a bit, which I like, but she could very well be bad.

This came as EOD approached. Wet fart.

Spoiler: show

i would join on epi but sprit has to die for the self vote

im sry

lc u got me hard w/ that self vote in ac

n e v e r a g a i n

That was a brilliant tactic. I don't even know with sprityo. I'll probably have to vote there to save myself.

Crucial dialogue on a different and very over game 30 minutes before the [supposed] deadline. Meh.

That's why I dubbed them "orange" in that chart. Tell me what y'all think.

[Hally]

thanks for that jay

if i was just to read fg’s side of it id say its too on the nose to be teammate and that either fg is pocketing or being pocketed by lc—i.e. they’re v/w

i think the case for w/w is a lot stronger on lc’s side. if i was just to read that, i’d agree wholeheartedly they’re compatible

im not sure how to reconcile my different takes on each side of it

i really like the take on lc/sprityo that lc could be tmi-ing sprit there. definitely something to remember if lc flips w

[Hally]

i think theres almost certainly at least one wolf in lc/fg

how they’ve treated each other, to me, doesnt look like two villagers who found each other authentically

something is off in their dynamic imo

[Long Con]

Look, we are assuming that there are multiple cops in the game due to the large number of Millers, right? Please, one of you check me tonight. Of course, maybe I'm a role that is the opposite of a Miller, that would make sense given the general theme so far. Hahahaha, but I'm not.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm not assuming there are any cops. I'm assuming nothing about cops.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i think theres almost certainly at least one wolf in lc/fg

how they’ve treated each other, to me, doesnt look like two villagers who found each other authentically

something is off in their dynamic imo

Agreed.

I also think they were borderline open at EOD.

[Long Con]

It hurts to see you guys talking this way when you are wrong.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It hurts to see you guys talking this way when you are wrong.

Continue to say your piece. I'll always be listening.

[Hally]

It hurts to see you guys talking this way when you are wrong.

how do you know im wrong? i said at least one wolf in you/fg and you presumably dont know her alignment

are you still so confident shes town after what happened at EoD? no thoughts on her not flipping and having zero reaction to that?

[Pawn Lelouch]

I will note that 1 wolf in that duo seems more likely than both fmpov. That dynamic shown from the quote lists from Jay seems too blatant and forced for a pair of wolves to feel like its a good idea. Tying themselves together like that will inevitably lead to both falling toogether eventually. There's too much attention on them, it just is never worth it.

[Hally]

I will note that 1 wolf in that duo seems more likely than both fmpov. That dynamic shown from the quote lists from Jay seems too blatant and forced for a pair of wolves to feel like its a good idea. Tying themselves together like that will inevitably lead to both falling toogether eventually. There's too much attention on them, it just is never worth it.

yo pawn! you been keeping up with game?

[Pawn Lelouch]

I will note that 1 wolf in that duo seems more likely than both fmpov. That dynamic shown from the quote lists from Jay seems too blatant and forced for a pair of wolves to feel like its a good idea. Tying themselves together like that will inevitably lead to both falling toogether eventually. There's too much attention on them, it just is never worth it.

yo pawn! you been keeping up with game?

Not really, unfortunately. Been bogged down with jury, LSAT prep, trying to do law school research, and flat out not realizing the game had started yet. Gonna try and do some proper reading in the morning to catch up.

[Millium]

[mention]Pawn Lelouch[/mention]
How's it going Pawn. Nice to finally play a game with you!

[Hally]

I will note that 1 wolf in that duo seems more likely than both fmpov. That dynamic shown from the quote lists from Jay seems too blatant and forced for a pair of wolves to feel like its a good idea. Tying themselves together like that will inevitably lead to both falling toogether eventually. There's too much attention on them, it just is never worth it.

yo pawn! you been keeping up with game?

Not really, unfortunately. Been bogged down with jury, LSAT prep, trying to do law school research, and flat out not realizing the game had started yet. Gonna try and do some proper reading in the morning to catch up.

take your time! its kind of a lot

[Long Con]

It hurts to see you guys talking this way when you are wrong.

Continue to say your piece. I'll always be listening.

Do you feel like I said my piece more yesterday after my flip out? Was that good to you, or was it all just fake? That was me trying, I'm not that great in the early game, I'm a Plinko board apparently.

I really did have a bunch of quotes from Sabie's ISO and some ideas to put out on them, but instead of redoing that, I took your question seriously with regard to what I thought of epignosis, and I went through his longer ISO instead.

Yesterday, you put out your GTH results on me.

Let me talk about my GTH choices. I thought about each player individually, and if I didn't have a reason to think they were bad, then I didn't say bad. I wasn't going to throw some negatives in just to be "normal". This is an accurate impression of how I view day one, which is what I've been saying, it takes me a day or two to develop reads sometimes... I mean this was not too far into day one, some people hadn't stopped meming yet, you know?

I got upset because I felt personally betrayed by someone who should know me well enough to already understand that about me. (personally betrayed on a purely game level, we're cool bro) it only makes sense to me that you would intentionally omit that angle when giving your reads on the results, because it wouldn't help to incriminate me.

Your attention to detail is above-average, I'm sure you'd agree. How could Town JJJ not at least give a small nod in that direction? I can't reconcile that. I mean, your whole post is fine, just a "but long con is usually like this" to indicate that you are really thinking about it for a second.

I'm trying not to Tunnel you, but bringing it back up like this makes me realize that I haven't changed my mind a bit. If you are Town though, consider giving me a break, every post you make is negative towards me, which doesn't help my opinion of an unbalanced view of the situation, from a guy who's natural virtues tend to desire otherwise.

[Long Con]

Whose* voice-to-text

[Long Con]

It hurts to see you guys talking this way when you are wrong.

how do you know im wrong? i said at least one wolf in you/fg and you presumably dont know her alignment

are you still so confident shes town after what happened at EoD? no thoughts on her not flipping and having zero reaction to that?

My post was mostly made while thinking about the last post by Jay, when he said we were open at end of day, which I took to mean open wolfing, so w / w.

I'm not confident funnygurl is town, but I would be a damn weird pocket for her if that is what she's up to. Why pocket a guy who is Public Enemy Number One on some lists?

[Hally]

It hurts to see you guys talking this way when you are wrong.

how do you know im wrong? i said at least one wolf in you/fg and you presumably dont know her alignment

are you still so confident shes town after what happened at EoD? no thoughts on her not flipping and having zero reaction to that?

My post was mostly made while thinking about the last post by Jay, when he said we were open at end of day, which I took to mean open wolfing, so w / w.

I'm not confident funnygurl is town, but I would be a damn weird pocket for her if that is what she's up to. Why pocket a guy who is Public Enemy Number One on some lists?

but what do you think of her not flipping and then not seeming surprised at all? thats like... very notable to me and its weird that you have no reaction to it?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The following is a lengthy response from me to Long Con. Anyone can obviously click on it and read what they want. I anticipate a long post though, and I don't want people's eyes glazing over the moment they see it in here. Click if y'all want to click.

Spoiler: show

Do you feel like I said my piece more yesterday after my flip out? Was that good to you, or was it all just fake? That was me trying, I'm not that great in the early game, I'm a Plinko board apparently.

There was no single moment in your posts after your flip out that I thought looked particularly innocent. That doesn't mean you're mafia, period, the end -- but it's just how I've felt. I'm always paying attention and if any little thing makes me feel like I've been barking up the wrong tree I will say so. I've barked up plenty of wrong trees in the past. I just have to feel that. Maybe I will yet. I don't know. Keep going and it'll be more plausible.

I really did have a bunch of quotes from Sabie's ISO and some ideas to put out on them, but instead of redoing that, I took your question seriously with regard to what I thought of epignosis, and I went through his longer ISO instead.

Consider my perspective: one of my top suspects, after having just wrongly screamed at me in an extremely dramatic fashion, then responds to one prod about Epignosis with an entire case. The effort is commendable and I appreciate that you did it. I cannot help but worry about opportunism though, especially given that the target of the case was someone that both Nanook and I were not keen on chopping. The surest way for a civilian group in a good place to ruin themselves is to chop someone outside the POE pool they have worked out together. That's what chopping Epignosis would have been. I'd need a fucking legend of a case to feel okay about that.

Yesterday, you put out your GTH results on me.

Let me talk about my GTH choices. I thought about each player individually, and if I didn't have a reason to think they were bad, then I didn't say bad. I wasn't going to throw some negatives in just to be "normal". This is an accurate impression of how I view day one, which is what I've been saying, it takes me a day or two to develop reads sometimes... I mean this was not too far into day one, some people hadn't stopped meming yet, you know?

I got upset because I felt personally betrayed by someone who should know me well enough to already understand that about me. (personally betrayed on a purely game level, we're cool bro) it only makes sense to me that you would intentionally omit that angle when giving your reads on the results, because it wouldn't help to incriminate me.

This is where you lose the plot. This is a very specific thing you're demanding that I just know about you -- not that "Long Con sometimes struggles on Day 1 to develop reads" (which I can't claim I even "knew" or "felt" about you either), but that "Long Con should not be suspected for having a lot of town reads in his GTH set". I have been running the GTH exercise for the last five years. The emergent trend with those reads that I have spoken of over and over and over after these things is that I have often observed mafia members naming more players town on average than town names town. On that basis, I tend to scrutinize that. You're not required by law to remember that detail, and you're not confirmed mafia as a result of that trend. But the trend has been notable to me. That means I'm going to say it. I don't care if it's Long Con or Epignosis or Sloonei or who the hell ever -- it's not a "meta" thing. It's general. It's also pretty minor in the grand scheme of my read. It's a single data point for me to muse over. That's why you flipping a lid in response to that struck me as such imbalanced and ridiculous behavior.

Regarding the orange thing: just stop. That is nonsense. I'm sorry, but it's nonsense.

Your attention to detail is above-average, I'm sure you'd agree. How could Town JJJ not at least give a small nod in that direction? I can't reconcile that. I mean, your whole post is fine, just a "but long con is usually like this" to indicate that you are really thinking about it for a second.

Perhaps Town JJJ could not do that for the same reason alleged Town Long Con could not find it within himself to interpret my GTH review as an objective assessment of the data in front of me as it has always been in the past. You're asking me to have a very specific idea of who you are, how you play, and how that should be interpreted in the GTH framework. It is unreasonable, and I don't think anyone else that has played a load of games with you would have had that specific notion of you either. Perhaps you're a bit deluded in that way (a meaner word than I intend; I don't have a better alternative at present), and in your melodrama you form a very self-centered view of matters that you project onto others. You cannot expect other people to think of you precisely the way that you think of you.

I'm trying not to Tunnel you, but bringing it back up like this makes me realize that I haven't changed my mind a bit. If you are Town though, consider giving me a break, every post you make is negative towards me, which doesn't help my opinion of an unbalanced view of the situation, from a guy who's natural virtues tend to desire otherwise.

The day phase is over, so you have free reign to do things your way now. I don't intend to sit here and call you mafia all night. I have better things to do. I will consider what you've said and continue to assess the game outside Long Con. There's a ton of it. I suggest you assess the game outside JJJ.

[Long Con]

I mean, that's exactly what I was doing when I made the case on kitsu, and when I made the case on epignosis.

[Long Con]

It hurts to see you guys talking this way when you are wrong.

how do you know im wrong? i said at least one wolf in you/fg and you presumably dont know her alignment

are you still so confident shes town after what happened at EoD? no thoughts on her not flipping and having zero reaction to that?

My post was mostly made while thinking about the last post by Jay, when he said we were open at end of day, which I took to mean open wolfing, so w / w.

I'm not confident funnygurl is town, but I would be a damn weird pocket for her if that is what she's up to. Why pocket a guy who is Public Enemy Number One on some lists?

but what do you think of her not flipping and then not seeming surprised at all? thats like... very notable to me and its weird that you have no reaction to it?

I did say wow. That's more reaction than most players I think, I mean she's not my girlfriend, don't hold me to a higher standard.

[Long Con]

I'm more interested to hear what she has to say about it then what I have to say about it.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

I’m not anticipating a single cop existing in this game tbh

I’m pretty annoyed we didn’t get those extra 10 minutes I was planning a “naw we’re just killing LC” swing back, and now we have no flip at all. Not great.

[Long Con]

JJJ, I also disagree with your definition of opportunism. Me going after someone who was an easy yeet would be opportunism, me going after someone that you and Nanook don't want to yeet is kind of the opposite, isn't it?

[Long Con]

I’m not anticipating a single cop existing in this game tbh

I’m pretty annoyed we didn’t get those extra 10 minutes I was planning a “naw we’re just killing LC” swing back, and now we have no flip at all. Not great.

Actually it is a good thing. And that's kind of uncalled for and suspicious. Why add chaos intentionally to the end of the day? How is that even remotely town?