Philosophy Mafia 2: Electric Boogaloo

[Dyslexicon]

waza i prob won't post again tonight but please tell me why dizzy is maf without using meta cuz this feels like one of your katze reads
AKA your reads where you fos someone just bc they trick you as wolf the game before or bc you know they're a good wolf

I'm a good wolf because I'm a total control freak and even though I've tried, I can't not take charge on a wolf team. Me not knowing what's going on and kind of scraping by never happens as mafia. You could call it wifom or think I'm faking it or whatever, but it's just not how that works. Even in this player list, I would probably feel the need to carry in a potential scum team. It's a bit of a yikes reason to read me, but it actually works. Apart from that, wtf have I done that's mafia indicative at all. Writing this to Ilario and whoever. I also gives me pleasure that mafia will have to fight to keep me in the PoE.

[Lime Coke]

Yeah, I noticed that too. Though it speaks more to Jimmay being scum than Anne's alignment. I mean, Jimmay could be bussing or placing a vote on a town wagon. However, if I stretch a bit perhaps, he did ask questions that was framed more as "why is Anne town?" so that might be partnery. And then coming back to vote Anne anyway, maybe after contemplating bussing. But that's speculative. But I could see it.

Yeah but why doesn't he take me and Rabbit townreading Anne as an excuse to not vote her if they're partnered? Along the lines of "These 2 think Anne is town so I'll sheep them since they're active voices and they might be town" type of thing. Like I don't see why he would say he'll "Ponder about our townread of Anne" then proceed to literally vote her like 10 minutes later. That's not really "pondering" that's just "Toss a vote on a majority wagon."

It was clear he didn't really take into account what you two were saying anyhow. But if it was a bus vote or a vote on town, I don't know. I think it could be both.

Kinda mrrr you aren't taking a real stance on it and just throwing a vote up but meh.

[Dyslexicon]

Yeah, I noticed that too. Though it speaks more to Jimmay being scum than Anne's alignment. I mean, Jimmay could be bussing or placing a vote on a town wagon. However, if I stretch a bit perhaps, he did ask questions that was framed more as "why is Anne town?" so that might be partnery. And then coming back to vote Anne anyway, maybe after contemplating bussing. But that's speculative. But I could see it.

Yeah but why doesn't he take me and Rabbit townreading Anne as an excuse to not vote her if they're partnered? Along the lines of "These 2 think Anne is town so I'll sheep them since they're active voices and they might be town" type of thing. Like I don't see why he would say he'll "Ponder about our townread of Anne" then proceed to literally vote her like 10 minutes later. That's not really "pondering" that's just "Toss a vote on a majority wagon."

It was clear he didn't really take into account what you two were saying anyhow. But if it was a bus vote or a vote on town, I don't know. I think it could be both.

Kinda mrrr you aren't taking a real stance on it and just throwing a vote up but meh.

Well true. I haven't made my mind up. I looked at the Anne wagon, and liked the people on it. But I'm missing all of D2, which is my fault of course, but I won't be able to read it now. Contemplated changing my vote, but don't know who I'll vote then

[Dyslexicon]

[VOTE: Mac] aubergine

peepeepoopoo

[Dyslexicon]

Oh, nobody else was voting Mac.

[ilario]

Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if pg 54 is w/w from dizzy and spf the whole interaction just feels weird and neither is trying to solve each other despite actively thinking the other is wolfy and then they somehow end up on a lame anne vote

Or you could get over your omg dizzy scum thing cause it lame

Why no vote Anne?

I don’t think the vote is optimal regardless of her alignment

Anne has done 2 things that pinged me this game. The first is when she said something about her not being insightful when she’s town or whatever is normal for her. Idk if that’s her being sarcastic but the statement was just not true if she’s serious. The second was when she got worked up that jjj didn’t tr her because I don’t know why she would expect jjj to be able to read her correctly.

Other than that I have no gripes with her. I think tonally she seems town and the way she’s read people so far feels genuine from her POV. If she’s town and gets eliminated then it sets up mafia to push Nutella tomorrow which I don’t want happening.

There’s also a world where she is maf and I’m misreading her. I’m not actively worried about that world rn because if she’s maf she kinda has to keep me alive and if it gets to a point where all mafia are dead and I’m still alive and she’s alive and everyone else has called her scum then I’ll reconsider my read. It’s kinda what happened to arete in the poisoner game I played with them, I misread arete but I wasn’t too worried about it since I pushed all their teammates and all that was left was arete and a bunch of super towny people in the end.

TLDR: I could be wrong on my anne read but I don’t think it’s a game losing read if I’m wrong, I do think however that if you/spf are maf and we let you slip by in a world where anne is town then this has potential to go south for town really fast.

Fwiw I’m interested to hear more about marmot case.

[Lime Coke]

Not entirely sure if I can actually be bothered because I'm a bit gridlocked on my reads, especially with what's going on throughout Day 2.

I feel like I need to rethink shit this game and be better Day 3.

[Lime Coke]

Fucking...I might've just realized something.

[Dyslexicon]

Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if pg 54 is w/w from dizzy and spf the whole interaction just feels weird and neither is trying to solve each other despite actively thinking the other is wolfy and then they somehow end up on a lame anne vote

Or you could get over your omg dizzy scum thing cause it lame

Why no vote Anne?

I don’t think the vote is optimal regardless of her alignment

Anne has done 2 things that pinged me this game. The first is when she said something about her not being insightful when she’s town or whatever is normal for her. Idk if that’s her being sarcastic but the statement was just not true if she’s serious. The second was when she got worked up that jjj didn’t tr her because I don’t know why she would expect jjj to be able to read her correctly.

Other than that I have no gripes with her. I think tonally she seems town and the way she’s read people so far feels genuine from her POV. If she’s town and gets eliminated then it sets up mafia to push Nutella tomorrow which I don’t want happening.

There’s also a world where she is maf and I’m misreading her. I’m not actively worried about that world rn because if she’s maf she kinda has to keep me alive and if it gets to a point where all mafia are dead and I’m still alive and she’s alive and everyone else has called her scum then I’ll reconsider my read. It’s kinda what happened to arete in the poisoner game I played with them, I misread arete but I wasn’t too worried about it since I pushed all their teammates and all that was left was arete and a bunch of super towny people in the end.

TLDR: I could be wrong on my anne read but I don’t think it’s a game losing read if I’m wrong, I do think however that if you/spf are maf and we let you slip by in a world where anne is town then this has potential to go south for town really fast.

Fwiw I’m interested to hear more about marmot case.

Ok. I'm not very familiar with Anne, though we have played together. Your reasoning for not voting there is very you-centric lol.

My Marmot case is also on hold.
I'm unbelievably tired right now actually, so I just need to go to bed. Hopefully, I'll be able to get even more into what is happening tomorrow.

[Lime Coke]

@ilario

If Anne flips green would you still be thinking Nutella is town? Especially with that EOD?

[ilario]

waza i prob won't post again tonight but please tell me why dizzy is maf without using meta cuz this feels like one of your katze reads
AKA your reads where you fos someone just bc they trick you as wolf the game before or bc you know they're a good wolf

That’s not even remotely close to what happened with Katze. I read Katze correctly at the start and end of every game I’ve seen her. I misread her halfway in poisoner game because I was getting snowed by arete at that point and felt like their dynamic was super weird af which meant there was always a maf in them two. Once I reconsidered my arete read I went back to tr’ing Katze

I find dizzy scummy because I think he’s overly bothered by my sr on him. His first reaction was to call it bad but he didn’t really evaluate whether it was coming from a genuine place or not. It felt like he was more annoyed that he was being srd for what he thought was the wrong reasons more than anything else. In a macro sense he is very different to his last game, I agree, but in a micro sense I don’t think he’s all that different. I skimmed a town game of his earlier and he’s full of insightful thoughts and isn’t afraid to go against the grain. I didn’t really see that from him in his maf game where he seems more content in just sounding towny tonally and just going with the flow. Like he was cool voting mac yesterday when others were fossing mac, but didn’t really do the same to jjj. He echoed doubts on marmot right after esooa expressed doubts but not before which is weird since it seems that he feels strongly about marmot being scum. He said earlier on d1 he didn’t like my push on him so I don’t see how I’m in his trs now. His tr more or less is just very consensus-ish to me. He doesn’t reveal more of his cards then he had to because outside of his read on anne and marmot and his 3-4 trs he gave I don’t really know his thoughts on other slots which gives him a lot of wiggle room as mafia imo.

[ilario]

@ilario

If Anne flips green would you still be thinking Nutella is town? Especially with that EOD?

Hmmm kinda. I’m not really basing my read on nutella of her accuracy on anne

[ilario]

Oh and also because I came into the day wanting to push wilgy or naa but I think they’ve both been towny so...yeah.

[Lime Coke]

I'm in such a weird ass state of mind with this game.

[Marmot]

I don’t like marmots push on naa, if there’s a deepwolf this game I’d loook Into marmot first if it comes to that, but I kinda think that him taking records of the voting logs during eod is pretty damn towny. I just tr naa more than marmot atm and dislike his push there

Can you at least respond to my take instead of this reaction? I spent like 2 hours reading back through and summarizing the EOD1 (mainly for myself, but also for anyone else who wants to check it out again). I did have him as a townread before, but I do think his EOD looks bad.

Why do you think he's town, and what do you think of his EOD, specifically that he only made one post in the waning moments in defense of chopping Jay?

I'm not sold on him being scum. I can't read him for shit. I do think that's a point against him.

[Lime Coke]

[VOTE: Sloonie but is actually Esooa] aubergine

[Marmot]

The weirdest thing about anne's wagon right now is that none of those people voted for her on Day 1.

[Dyslexicon]

waza i prob won't post again tonight but please tell me why dizzy is maf without using meta cuz this feels like one of your katze reads
AKA your reads where you fos someone just bc they trick you as wolf the game before or bc you know they're a good wolf

That’s not even remotely close to what happened with Katze. I read Katze correctly at the start and end of every game I’ve seen her. I misread her halfway in poisoner game because I was getting snowed by arete at that point and felt like their dynamic was super weird af which meant there was always a maf in them two. Once I reconsidered my arete read I went back to tr’ing Katze

I find dizzy scummy because I think he’s overly bothered by my sr on him. His first reaction was to call it bad but he didn’t really evaluate whether it was coming from a genuine place or not. It felt like he was more annoyed that he was being srd for what he thought was the wrong reasons more than anything else. In a macro sense he is very different to his last game, I agree, but in a micro sense I don’t think he’s all that different. I skimmed a town game of his earlier and he’s full of insightful thoughts and isn’t afraid to go against the grain. I didn’t really see that from him in his maf game where he seems more content in just sounding towny tonally and just going with the flow. Like he was cool voting mac yesterday when others were fossing mac, but didn’t really do the same to jjj. He echoed doubts on marmot right after esooa expressed doubts but not before which is weird since it seems that he feels strongly about marmot being scum. He said earlier on d1 he didn’t like my push on him so I don’t see how I’m in his trs now. His tr more or less is just very consensus-ish to me. He doesn’t reveal more of his cards then he had to because outside of his read on anne and marmot and his 3-4 trs he gave I don’t really know his thoughts on other slots which gives him a lot of wiggle room as mafia imo.

Jesus christ, there's so much wrong with this. First of all, you thought I was scummy just for existing from the get go, so saying I'm scummy now because I'm "overly bothered" is peepee. Also, why is that scum indicative for me? Guess what, it's not. I hate being scum read as town, especially by someone who should know better. What the fuck are you saying about me not evaluating if your read is coming from a genuine place? I'm town reading your slot, it's evaluated, so I'm assuming it's coming from a genuine place, which is why it's so annoying. I'm sorry I'm not "insightful" enough for you this game, though I think you're giving me way too little credit in your tunnel mind. First of all, I've read only D1, all in one go. Truthfully, I'm not all that obsessed by this game, and I'm finding it hard to make my mind up about things. (For the record, I rarely go against the grain all that much, as I'm very impressionable. You coming with anecdotes about a game is using "meta" to justify your tunnel and it's poopoo.) Anyway, I think my most "insightful" take is that Nut is probably town here, and I have reasons in my ISO. There seems to be contention. Not even sure about this read, but I think my reasons are good. I did not echo Marmot suspicion after Esooa, I had my OWN misgivings about Marmot because I started to read the fucking game and Marmot is someone I know well, and I didn't like his start to the game at all.

You're literally only seeing me from a mafia perspective because tunnel. Your reasoning is actually very terrible, to the point that it does make me question you. Why do you assume I have to have "non consensus" reads in order to be town? That is not normal for me, first of all, second, I haven't fully grasped the game, so I'm going off of consensus deliberately as well, and third is there even a consensus lol.

I know I shouldn't waste breath doing this, but can't help it. Do better. Listen to Calexa. Thanks.

[Dyslexicon]

No shit I'm following some sort of consensus or echoing what some others may already have said, because I'm catching up on the game now. Hello.

[Marmot]

Shame on you for agreeing with the consensus Dizzy. Why would you do such a thing?!?!?!

[Dyslexicon]

Not saying that I feel like I'm doing great, cause I'm not. I had a theory about SPF/Lime, cause SPF asked "Why did that post make Lime town" when I town read Lime for a specific post, and that gave me so much scum!Hally vibes, as it's pretty common for "players like that" to question town reads on a teammate just like that. And I also felt SPF was hedgy on Lime from the beginning. However, how Lime has been hard town reading SPF make me think this is not the case, so all this is useless. So yeah, I haven't had a eureka moment, so I'd rather just yell at Ilario.

[Dyslexicon]

@leetic Why did you decide to vote Jimmay in the end? You argued against it shortly before you did vote, iirc?

[Marmot]

Fwiw Dizzy, I don't think I've played a game with you where you were town and didn't post 200 times and towntell yourself Day 1. I think that's one of the reasons I didn't have a townread on you this game.

[Dyslexicon]

@leetic Why did you decide to vote Jimmay in the end? You argued against it shortly before you did vote, iirc?

@leetic

[Lime Coke]

Not saying that I feel like I'm doing great, cause I'm not. I had a theory about SPF/Lime, cause SPF asked "Why did that post make Lime town" when I town read Lime for a specific post, and that gave me so much scum!Hally vibes, as it's pretty common for "players like that" to question town reads on a teammate just like that. And I also felt SPF was hedgy on Lime from the beginning. However, how Lime has been hard town reading SPF make me think this is not the case, so all this is useless. So yeah, I haven't had a eureka moment, so I'd rather just yell at Ilario.

[Dyslexicon]

Fwiw Dizzy, I don't think I've played a game with you where you were town and didn't post 200 times and towntell yourself Day 1. I think that's one of the reasons I didn't have a townread on you this game.

Other have. I've done it on Cindy Kate quite a lot. You also haven't played a game with me where I was mafia and posted a lot and usually I get a really good standing if not better as mafia too. I mean, I get it, other people's perception is their truth. It's just that I actually know my game.

Aaaanyway. I should stop complaining and go to bed.

I'd sheep Calexa right now.

[Dyslexicon]

One thing is certain though: This wagon formation always chops mafia!

[Marmot]

Fwiw Dizzy, I don't think I've played a game with you where you were town and didn't post 200 times and towntell yourself Day 1. I think that's one of the reasons I didn't have a townread on you this game.

Other have. I've done it on Cindy Kate quite a lot. You also haven't played a game with me where I was mafia and posted a lot and usually I get a really good standing if not better as mafia too. I mean, I get it, other people's perception is their truth. It's just that I actually know my game.

Aaaanyway. I should stop complaining and go to bed.

I'd sheep Calexa right now.

Fleabag Mafia

[ilario]

waza i prob won't post again tonight but please tell me why dizzy is maf without using meta cuz this feels like one of your katze reads
AKA your reads where you fos someone just bc they trick you as wolf the game before or bc you know they're a good wolf

That’s not even remotely close to what happened with Katze. I read Katze correctly at the start and end of every game I’ve seen her. I misread her halfway in poisoner game because I was getting snowed by arete at that point and felt like their dynamic was super weird af which meant there was always a maf in them two. Once I reconsidered my arete read I went back to tr’ing Katze

I find dizzy scummy because I think he’s overly bothered by my sr on him. His first reaction was to call it bad but he didn’t really evaluate whether it was coming from a genuine place or not. It felt like he was more annoyed that he was being srd for what he thought was the wrong reasons more than anything else. In a macro sense he is very different to his last game, I agree, but in a micro sense I don’t think he’s all that different. I skimmed a town game of his earlier and he’s full of insightful thoughts and isn’t afraid to go against the grain. I didn’t really see that from him in his maf game where he seems more content in just sounding towny tonally and just going with the flow. Like he was cool voting mac yesterday when others were fossing mac, but didn’t really do the same to jjj. He echoed doubts on marmot right after esooa expressed doubts but not before which is weird since it seems that he feels strongly about marmot being scum. He said earlier on d1 he didn’t like my push on him so I don’t see how I’m in his trs now. His tr more or less is just very consensus-ish to me. He doesn’t reveal more of his cards then he had to because outside of his read on anne and marmot and his 3-4 trs he gave I don’t really know his thoughts on other slots which gives him a lot of wiggle room as mafia imo.

Jesus christ, there's so much wrong with this. First of all, you thought I was scummy just for existing from the get go, so saying I'm scummy now because I'm "overly bothered" is peepee. Also, why is that scum indicative for me? Guess what, it's not. I hate being scum read as town, especially by someone who should know better. What the fuck are you saying about me not evaluating if your read is coming from a genuine place? I'm town reading your slot, it's evaluated, so I'm assuming it's coming from a genuine place, which is why it's so annoying. I'm sorry I'm not "insightful" enough for you this game, though I think you're giving me way too little credit in your tunnel mind. First of all, I've read only D1, all in one go. Truthfully, I'm not all that obsessed by this game, and I'm finding it hard to make my mind up about things. (For the record, I rarely go against the grain all that much, as I'm very impressionable. You coming with anecdotes about a game is using "meta" to justify your tunnel and it's poopoo.) Anyway, I think my most "insightful" take is that Nut is probably town here, and I have reasons in my ISO. There seems to be contention. Not even sure about this read, but I think my reasons are good. I did not echo Marmot suspicion after Esooa, I had my OWN misgivings about Marmot because I started to read the fucking game and Marmot is someone I know well, and I didn't like his start to the game at all.

You're literally only seeing me from a mafia perspective because tunnel. Your reasoning is actually very terrible, to the point that it does make me question you. Why do you assume I have to have "non consensus" reads in order to be town? That is not normal for me, first of all, second, I haven't fully grasped the game, so I'm going off of consensus deliberately as well, and third is there even a consensus lol.

I know I shouldn't waste breath doing this, but can't help it. Do better. Listen to Calexa. Thanks.

My initial sr was to prompt a reaction from you, go back and check the interaction I even said you were town afterwards. Why do you get the impression I should know better though? We only have one game together and I was off on you for majority of that game? Oh ig we have constellations too if that counts. And I’m sorry if my tunnel is frustrating, I know they are but they help me get reads from slots that would otherwise be unreadable, other than saying you wouldn’t do “xyz” as mafia do you honestly think you’ve projected towniness this game to an extent that would make me putting pressure on you to be a bad idea? And it’s hard for me to take “I wouldn’t do xyz arguments as mafia” with any grain of salt because there’s an annoyingly high amount of slots this game that have used that argument, or arguments along that same mentality this game to the point where there has to be Atleast one mafia using it too.

[Dyslexicon]

It's just that when I don't know what's going on/can't make my mind up about INSIGHTFUL TAKES, I get defensive, cause I at least don't want to be a hard town read.

[Marmot]

It's just that when I don't know what's going on/can't make my mind up about INSIGHTFUL TAKES, I get defensive, cause I at least don't want to be a hard town read.

Tbh, I think my current read on you can be summarized as

Spoiler: show

peepeepoopoo

[Dyslexicon]

My initial sr was to prompt a reaction from you, go back and check the interaction I even said you were town afterwards. Why do you get the impression I should know better though? We only have one game together and I was off on you for majority of that game? Oh ig we have constellations too if that counts. And I’m sorry if my tunnel is frustrating, I know they are but they help me get reads from slots that would otherwise be unreadable, other than saying you wouldn’t do “xyz” as mafia do you honestly think you’ve projected towniness this game to an extent that would make me putting pressure on you to be a bad idea? And it’s hard for me to take “I wouldn’t do xyz arguments as mafia” with any grain of salt because there’s an annoyingly high amount of slots this game that have used that argument, or arguments along that same mentality this game to the point where there has to be Atleast one mafia using it too.

That's the thing - you should know better than to argue that you have a legitimate read on me based on "meta", cause that is what you're using. Assumptions about my play that are totally off. I get it, I do. But it's not about I wouldn't do specific things. It's my whole approach here that just wouldn't happen. It has never happened before when I'm mafia, and if you think this is the first time, then go off I guess.

[Dyslexicon]

It's just that when I don't know what's going on/can't make my mind up about INSIGHTFUL TAKES, I get defensive, cause I at least don't want to be a hard town read.

Tbh, I think my current read on you can be summarized as

Spoiler: show

peepeepoopoo

This is fair.

[ilario]

Not saying that I feel like I'm doing great, cause I'm not. I had a theory about SPF/Lime, cause SPF asked "Why did that post make Lime town" when I town read Lime for a specific post, and that gave me so much scum!Hally vibes, as it's pretty common for "players like that" to question town reads on a teammate just like that. And I also felt SPF was hedgy on Lime from the beginning. However, how Lime has been hard town reading SPF make me think this is not the case, so all this is useless. So yeah, I haven't had a eureka moment, so I'd rather just yell at Ilario.

also posts like these dont come out until i start tunneling someone, and this is probably one of ur better posts this game, so yeah my tunnels are still justified to me. you just dont have enough exp with me but i change my mind on tunnels a lot during games and its moreso a method of getting someone to towntell if theyre town.

[ilario]

/vote spf

[Lime Coke]

The thing is that I still think this goes more towards how Dizzy was during Baby Mafia, rather than how they were during Fleabag mafia, which means he'd end up being town.

I'm so hesitant on pulling the trigger on call him town because of the fact that I misread him in both of those games.

[Dyslexicon]

If I don't get invested, the game won't fuck with my sleep.

I'm not even that invested, but here I am and it's 7:30 am

[Lime Coke]

What the fuck is this day phase?

[cassandra]

waza i prob won't post again tonight but please tell me why dizzy is maf without using meta cuz this feels like one of your katze reads
AKA your reads where you fos someone just bc they trick you as wolf the game before or bc you know they're a good wolf

That’s not even remotely close to what happened with Katze. I read Katze correctly at the start and end of every game I’ve seen her. I misread her halfway in poisoner game because I was getting snowed by arete at that point and felt like their dynamic was super weird af which meant there was always a maf in them two. Once I reconsidered my arete read I went back to tr’ing Katze

I find dizzy scummy because I think he’s overly bothered by my sr on him. His first reaction was to call it bad but he didn’t really evaluate whether it was coming from a genuine place or not. It felt like he was more annoyed that he was being srd for what he thought was the wrong reasons more than anything else. In a macro sense he is very different to his last game, I agree, but in a micro sense I don’t think he’s all that different. I skimmed a town game of his earlier and he’s full of insightful thoughts and isn’t afraid to go against the grain. I didn’t really see that from him in his maf game where he seems more content in just sounding towny tonally and just going with the flow. Like he was cool voting mac yesterday when others were fossing mac, but didn’t really do the same to jjj. He echoed doubts on marmot right after esooa expressed doubts but not before which is weird since it seems that he feels strongly about marmot being scum. He said earlier on d1 he didn’t like my push on him so I don’t see how I’m in his trs now. His tr more or less is just very consensus-ish to me. He doesn’t reveal more of his cards then he had to because outside of his read on anne and marmot and his 3-4 trs he gave I don’t really know his thoughts on other slots which gives him a lot of wiggle room as mafia imo.

it is though, and please listen to me on this as if we're talking outside of the game because it's a serious trend that happens with you in games. like that one game i played on Oceanlover, you tunneled me/spf as a team because we didn't think esooa (tessepia) was mafia and you thought we'd be sus of her because she was maf the game before - not everyone considers games in that way. i said not to use meta when you described the read because i think there's a fine line and you can factor it in too heavily and you literally used meta in this explanation with "dizzy has insightful stuff as town" - your micro/macro stuff registers with me on a MACRO level but i still don't think it applies to dizzy here

his doubts on marmot imo were a lot more passionate/his own and i think you are simplifying those - the stuff yesterday imo was clearly time limited and he expressed doubts on both mac and JJJ, JJJ just wasn't a wagon til EOD.

i realize i may look like a fool if he's a wolf here but i still feel like these reasons are valid.

the 'overly bothered by my scumread on him', ok sure, like he probably is bothered because he thinks it's for the wrong reasons but that's alignment aside, and i think if we was maf, he'd just call you town for it and not question your alignment for it too? it's one of those things that imo is easy to call someone town for. a towngame you skimmed with "insightful comments" is the definition of lazy meta

also im sorry if this sounds harsh im just kind of emotionally feeling for dizzy rn. maybe he just pocketed me really well but lol

on your anne read, i feel a lot more meh about her. like yeah your "only 2 specific things have pinged me" is valid but the problem is i can't point to any concrete reasons why she's town and when she's town, i usually can

[Marmot]

What the fuck is this day phase?

What do you want it to be?

Here, I'll update my readlist, and you can tell me if they're bad takes or not.

[Lime Coke]

I just realized I have only 6 posts after this one so I gotta make them count before EOD, I appreciate if there's legit answers to these questions.

@Esooa

Who are you townreading currently in this game?

@DrWilgy

I want to see your worldview for this game, at the least most confident towns and who you scumread the most.
Also what was your thought on sheeping Nutella on voting Anne during EOD1?


I'll probably be a ghost for most of this day phase, if I'm going to post it's going to be some long ass posts with everything that comes to mind. I'm going to be here at EOD unless something unfortunate happens.

I have a feeling that one of my townreads to start Day 2 is going to get tossed and it's not a good feeling unless I'm seeing legit reasons.

[ilario]

waza i prob won't post again tonight but please tell me why dizzy is maf without using meta cuz this feels like one of your katze reads
AKA your reads where you fos someone just bc they trick you as wolf the game before or bc you know they're a good wolf

That’s not even remotely close to what happened with Katze. I read Katze correctly at the start and end of every game I’ve seen her. I misread her halfway in poisoner game because I was getting snowed by arete at that point and felt like their dynamic was super weird af which meant there was always a maf in them two. Once I reconsidered my arete read I went back to tr’ing Katze

I find dizzy scummy because I think he’s overly bothered by my sr on him. His first reaction was to call it bad but he didn’t really evaluate whether it was coming from a genuine place or not. It felt like he was more annoyed that he was being srd for what he thought was the wrong reasons more than anything else. In a macro sense he is very different to his last game, I agree, but in a micro sense I don’t think he’s all that different. I skimmed a town game of his earlier and he’s full of insightful thoughts and isn’t afraid to go against the grain. I didn’t really see that from him in his maf game where he seems more content in just sounding towny tonally and just going with the flow. Like he was cool voting mac yesterday when others were fossing mac, but didn’t really do the same to jjj. He echoed doubts on marmot right after esooa expressed doubts but not before which is weird since it seems that he feels strongly about marmot being scum. He said earlier on d1 he didn’t like my push on him so I don’t see how I’m in his trs now. His tr more or less is just very consensus-ish to me. He doesn’t reveal more of his cards then he had to because outside of his read on anne and marmot and his 3-4 trs he gave I don’t really know his thoughts on other slots which gives him a lot of wiggle room as mafia imo.

it is though, and please listen to me on this as if we're talking outside of the game because it's a serious trend that happens with you in games. like that one game i played on Oceanlover, you tunneled me/spf as a team because we didn't think esooa (tessepia) was mafia and you thought we'd be sus of her because she was maf the game before - not everyone considers games in that way. i said not to use meta when you described the read because i think there's a fine line and you can factor it in too heavily and you literally used meta in this explanation with "dizzy has insightful stuff as town" - your micro/macro stuff registers with me on a MACRO level but i still don't think it applies to dizzy here

his doubts on marmot imo were a lot more passionate/his own and i think you are simplifying those - the stuff yesterday imo was clearly time limited and he expressed doubts on both mac and JJJ, JJJ just wasn't a wagon til EOD.

i realize i may look like a fool if he's a wolf here but i still feel like these reasons are valid.

the 'overly bothered by my scumread on him', ok sure, like he probably is bothered because he thinks it's for the wrong reasons but that's alignment aside, and i think if we was maf, he'd just call you town for it and not question your alignment for it too? it's one of those things that imo is easy to call someone town for. a towngame you skimmed with "insightful comments" is the definition of lazy meta

also im sorry if this sounds harsh im just kind of emotionally feeling for dizzy rn. maybe he just pocketed me really well but lol

on your anne read, i feel a lot more meh about her. like yeah your "only 2 specific things have pinged me" is valid but the problem is i can't point to any concrete reasons why she's town and when she's town, i usually can

i was voting spf in that game before i knew esooas alignment and i tunneled u because u voted myth when i was sure she was town, neither of those have to do with meta. i then walked back on both of those reads and found u both as town like i had at the start didnt i? it is a trend that i can be harsh on players but is it that bad? i think my style only becomes a problem if i lose games because of it or if i were the type to be tunneled for the whole game on my reads. like both examples of games you brought up, aka the ocreanlover game and my game with katze were both essentially town sweeps for the most part and i think you wouldnt be as bothered if it werent for the fact that you found my tunnel incredibly annoying and ive openly admitted and apologised to people that i am aware being tunneled by me isnt fun. i do value ur read on dizzy + combined with some of his posts earlier being decent so i dont really want him anymore and if u were to out a legacy read on him being town then id respect it. im probably voting in either spf or mac today. and yeah ur points about anne are also valid, i probably wont shield her today unless she comes in again and i find her super towny.

[ilario]

I think the bigger problem with me in the ocean game is that I’m too harsh on players I consider to be great players when they don’t have similar reads as me especially if it’s in a way that I struggle to understand, and yeah i acknowledge that’s a problem of mine.

[staypositivefriend]

lol illario wtf are you doing

[Esooa]

Finished reading day 1. I'm kinda tired of reading posts so I skimmed/wasn't absorbing much of the EoD, but should be fine

anne - will talk about more after, generally pretty whelmed by her posts but I've liked it more than not. The biggest thing for me was her SPF read about big posts, where she posted it going like "the scummiest thing about spf is her post size," was pressured on it and said it wasn't really serious, then after being pressured a little more explains the read with like 2 decent paragraphs. It's a read that I've had on SPF before too so I kinda understand it, but mostly I think the treatment of shirking on the read by saying it's not really serious but actually having the opinion (cause she explained it and seemed decently serious) makes me think it's just genuine, it's something I've felt a lot where I'm like "yeah I don't really want to give this read cause people won't like me for it so it's just kinda a joke"

cassandra - Talked about for the most part, I thought while reading EoD briefly that her thread positioning fits a wolf who's just kinda riding consensus (which I do think is a problem right now) which also would involve going with the flow and bussing JJJ day 1, but her posts really just don't read like a bus. Even if Alexa was intending to deep wolf this game which isn't really implausible imo, I doubt she ever goes out of her way to get a partner killed when he wasn't really in contention that EoD until she talked about him a lot

DrWilgy - honestly got close to nothing from his day 1 posts. He's posted a few decently lucid thoughts this day phase that I liked, but I don't really know how he plays as wolf. Everything I've seen from him seems in line with his town games from before, though. The biggest problem I have with him is mostly other peoples posting about him, lol. People saying "the MR shot was good for him"

Like, it was on a towny, and it's not rly like he's just going to out to shoot someone outer PoE imo. Radishes is also someone who can contribute pretty well but is also a low accountability kill, like I think it's a scummier kill than not tbh.

Though I just remembered specifically his posting about calling Anne town, that was pretty good and I generally agree with the thoughts, would add those to my reasons to town read Anne

Dyslexicon - Liked their vibes but their recent reads list really pinged me

They read all of day 1 and just dropped a PoE going "Mac Anne Esooa" and it made me really just go like

This is actually just the consensus PoE for the past 24 hours and no one has cared, like hello pls why is this a thing

Particularly don't like it irt mostly in annoyance because I think I'm PoE only for being a sub, but I think it's a pretty good demonstration of what I mean. I have 88 posts in 24 hours already and I still feel like I'm being treated as a nothing slot and nobody really cares that much about my placement, the people who really do I think are decently likely town regardless. And the same thing is being done with Mac/Anne where they're just... existing as PoE and nothing is being done about it. No one's being pushed, Anne has been decently wagoned but there's no one really convicted she's a wolf, it's just kinda like.. yeah she's vaguely scummy, and votes are just placed on her

I think especially because I'm town and no one is taking any interest in movement it decently raises the others chances of being town, btw, but I digress, going back to Dizzy;

The way they engaged with the reads just felt shitty and made the thread state particularly hit me. They read day 1, which like yeah that's good, but then afterwards just dropped their fully consensus PoE with no real interest in actually solving these slots. I've posted around Dizzy a few times and liked that we had similar thoughts, but they don't even seem to have registered that fact. They said "Mac's day 1 was pretty lackluster, hope he picks it up day 2," but doesn't talk about or investigate his day 2 at all. The drive to solve from Dizzy just feels non-existent and I really didn't like it

I was gonna say their recent clap back against Illario was good, though, mostly for it feeling like a kinda towny "get the fuck off me," while I think wolf Dizzy would indeed be more of a smooth talker/etc, but I dunno I'm feeling they're decently wolfy now, prob just going to say they're null becuase idk about the Marmot interactions and think Marmot is decently wolfy

falcon45ca - Pretty confident he's town, like very. Green checked by Mac which I agree isn't ever w/w (his wolf equity probably actually increases if Mac is town cause I still kinda feel like the check is fake) but mostly has just been genuinely towny in giving like, hard hitting reads lol, as in when he explains his wolf reads they just have good conviction, and he pushes on things with determination the way he does as town, etc.

iaafr - Probs town. Had some slight paranoia from reading EoD he could be a wolf because his JJJ vote seemingly came out of no where, but I possibly just don't remember his previous stance on JJJ. I think the way he flip flopped on the read still is good but doubtfully hard clearing just cause I've pointed out this thing before and there's enough people with "iaafr meta" that I think he'd possibly be aware enough to try and subvert it like he did, more leaning to town still though. Generally just based on vibes, way he's posting, so I don't have a specific "this is town" thing from him. Some random thoughts on him I put down cause why not are that I actually did really like the way he approach SPF, he mentioned to me in DM's recently that he thinks SPF has very AI openers, and without me in the game too he brings out this read in specific about SPF, paying specific attention to her opener. Another thing I liked was the way he defended Nutella but didn't want to commit to it mostly because it reminds me of his thoughts about Limestone from a previous game, though I'm kinda eh on that particular read as the days gone longer

ilario/leetic - getting town vibes from both atm. Leetic is funny to me but the way he's pushing things seems more like a towny committed to their processes than a wolf trying to be obtuse to sow division, particularly got this feeling around EoD1. I haven't cared to read either much but Illario has just been really towny imo. Approach to NAA was good, like saying a player is mafia because they're town siding too much. Biggest thing I have in his favor was from EoD1 when he was like "why is (x person, I forgot) a wagon, I hope I get night killed."

Classic Illario town moment

Lime Coke - honestly haven't really been trying to solve him at all. His recent posts about "this day phase is weird" have made me :? slightly because he's mentioned it a few times but hasn't even talked about and is just... saying it. I also just kinda find the posts funny because NAA was saying he always goes into lost mode as town mid-game lmao but yea. People are generally reading him town, I'm fine with it don't care, if he lives another day or two will just ISO then and be able to get a decently confident read probably

MacDougall - think Mac is more likely town than not. Usually when I see him try to dig himself out of holes as mafia he does it more so trying to emulate his town style. Posting reads off the cuff, throwing his ego around, kinda thing. He's done some of the ego stuff but not as much, and the biggest response to pressure from him was just writing a big iaafr case that I liked the spontaneity of and I don't particularly think he'd be casing iaafr here as a wolf cause just.. why

Tbh, thinking this is less strong of a reason than I had in my head now that I write it out though. I do agree that sitting around doing nothing comes from wolf Mac a lot more often than town Mac, too, so yeah.

Marmot - I've explained this one, already wrote enough in this post. Kinda having doubts about him mostly because of volume, I don't really know how capable he is of that as a wolf, but like, I don't really like the way most of his volume is made anyways tbh. It's all very disconnected, and especially when he explains his previous thoughts they're very empty. Like, when I asked him about the Nutella stuff, he gave very generic reasoning for the posts I quoted... but also didn't mention the thought processes going into some of his posts he made about Nutella around that time that I *didn't* quote

And like, if he's actually going thought his thought processes, it feels weird he wouldn't talk about that? Or just have more going on in general, tbh

I kinda thought his response to pressure earlier was wolfy, I don't know how much I care about that now. Not much but I may as well mention

Basically he was pretty aggro about wolf reads on him, calling them really bad, but then he immediately switched into like, cooperative mode, going "I don't think this day phase has been going in a good direction for town, we need to come together to fix the problem." It just felt skeevy but meh

NotAnAxehole - I think he's had a few towny posts but I'm going back and forth on him. I guess he's PoE, but not really a priority at all. His post earlier about me not having thoughts on spew from the wolf was good, mostly because in one of the most previous games we played I read his spew pretty in depth to push his wolf partner Alison, so it makes sense he's expecting me to look at those kinda things again. It's mostly a minor point, though. He had some posts day 1 that were like, snap read kinda things, just posting thoughts on a fair few things in quick succession. I could be wrong about this because I didn't read much of backwards mafia where he was a wolf, but I recall his reads being a lot more formulaic/stilted in that game, not as flowy as there.

I think by far the worst part about NAA is his JJJ read. He talked a lot about JJJ, and basically seemed to put a strong emphasis on JJJ's influence in his game, but at the same time claimed... no read on him. I don't really understand how you can not have a read on someone who's a focal point of your game, and it felt like an excuse more than anything. I also think him being on the wagon is actually bad considering his earlier stuff in the EoD about not voting JJJ

nutella - have felt like she's slightly towny in terms of her reads. Have some minor gripes but meh. I think the pressure against her SoD2 was jumped on by a wolf, which helps, tbh I don't remember who all did that but I know Marmot did at least which I didn't like, lol. I do agree with Iaafr's opinion that Nutella's posts about JJJ don't look partnered but I kinda expected more? Like the one Dizzy quoted earlier and said they liked was good, but I didn't really see much else from Nutella about JJJ that I went like "yeah this is someone without TMI on JJJ"

I also just barely lost to wolf!Alexa due to associative reads lol, (Gira was the one who pulled the trigger on that but I was thinking the same while alive), and kinda was thinking after seeing that, that I shouldn't be clearing partners off of like... individual posts that can really intentionally be wifomy. Nutella's thoughts about JJJ extend past one post but not significantly.

Do agree that her having no tunnels is a bit but eh. Town leaning her

staypositivefriend - Pretty conflicted on SPF this game which I don't like, leaning her wolf though. I have a lot of stuff that I'd need to pull posts for that I don't really want to do right now because I've spent a lot of time writing this but basically, I don't really agree with Alexa that SPF's EoD was that good. She did venture off the wagons temporarily that led to JJJ being in contention, but I don't think "I don't want to kill JJJ today" is something SPF wouldn't be able to post as a wolf. It's like, not that hard to think as a wolf considering it's a pretty common thought, and she did a few things I didn't like EoD. Immediately after saying she thought JJJ was wolfy but she didn't want to kill him that day, she made a really, really really wolfy post; I'm actually going to go find it.

i think that wilgy is the type of player that people might find easy to push on regardless of his alignment, and i also would be lying if i said that ive gotten anything alignment indicative out of his posts

the real reason that im voting for him is because he has a vested interest in maintaining an active presence in this game, but he does not appear to have a vested interest in solving the game. when someone cares a lot about a game but that "caring" doesn't translate to any visible scumhunting, then it can be indicative of the person playing in a wolf mindset

So, in the first paragraph she says "I would be lying if I said that I've gotten anything AI out of (Wilgys) posts"

But then immediately after goes,

then it can be indicative of the person playing in a wolf mindset

while saying something he's done that's wolfy. Saying, like, someone is null to you (the first paragraph), then going into "but here's something they've done that's wolfy actually, and I want them dead today" just reads so awful to me

Other random stuff I didn't like is like, her post earlier saying "I think this PoE from Mac was possibly made to wolf side,"

Which is such a weird sounding thought to begin with, but reading day 1 with that thought in mind I just go... really? Like, this Mac is making PoE's trying to hard wolf side?

He didn't do anything or push anything, and then a wolf died. I really don't think that's a wolf-siding Mac, wolf!Mac here is pretty obviously just doing nothing

I also disliked how disjointed SPF's EoD was. She threw out like.. 4 or 5 posts that were just paragraphs of her posting a thought, without much interaction. It all sounded rehearsed to me, too

I have the p403 is partnery from SPF I'm not gonna find it so there's that

Anyways what I was gonna write after all this is just stuff like, I think the gamestate rn is pretty bad just in the sense there's no real pushes and the votes on PoE are really consensus and basically no one cares, all the people who I see doing non-consensus stuff I think are town, and it's just not good imo

Current people I want to look into more are like, Marmot first of all, probably actually SPF second there, then Dizzy

Though this is a confusing amalgamation of people in terms of interactions but eh lmao

[staypositivefriend]

[VOTE: esooa] aubergine

[leetic]

i think spf looks pretty compatible with jay, treated him hesitantly etc and hasn't been particularly towny, and i would bet she's a/the teammate included on jay's town list. shes also approached me awkwardly today imo, she said twice like "nutella is prob just town" in an uncharacteristically hedgy way as a wolf capitulating to my townieness might be

You're not one to talk about being uncharacteristically hedgy

@leetic Why did you decide to vote Jimmay in the end? You argued against it shortly before you did vote, iirc?

@leetic

It was him or anne and I thought the anne wagon was wolfy (and turned out to be right)

Also, I wasn't expecting scum Jay to be so lame, especially after he has done much better as scum in the past. Oh well, that was probably the one time when I nearly fell for "too scummy to be scum"

Anyway, these past two pages were a dumpster fire, and I believe scum is trying to disrupt our towncore. The anne wagon is still awful and the spf one isn't much better. Do better guys

[cassandra]

I think the bigger problem with me in the ocean game is that I’m too harsh on players I consider to be great players when they don’t have similar reads as me especially if it’s in a way that I struggle to understand, and yeah i acknowledge that’s a problem of mine.

yeah that's another thing we talked about so i get that element, but i just feel like it's a trend specifically for people who have fooled you hard as wolf (SPF, dizzy, katze, anne, esooa, etc) when in reality even good wolves can be read in a similar way to reading anyone else

and also the way you approach reads sometimes is like allowing people who have NEVER fooled you before to fool you then after it happens, never letting it happen again, whereas fmpov i treat everyone equally unless i know they have very polarized ranges or something

can you explain more why you think spf is maf?

also im going to sleep now lol

[Esooa]

[VOTE: esooa] aubergine

thnx

[Marmot]

Hypertown

Marmot - Town
Lime Coke - His EOD1 looked great in how he handled the Jay wagon. I didn't pay him much attention early Day 1, but I see no reason to put him anywhere near the POE right now.
cassandra - Helped kick of the flashwagon of Jay. She'll remain a firm townread that I won't question until/unless we get a couple mischops.


Hypotown

iaafr - His EOD1 doesn't look great on the surface, given then he hopped off the Jay wagon at the last moment, but I've been constantly told that is his town meta, so I'm deferring on this one.
ilario / leetic - They did vote for Jay yesterday, that is good. Though I'm a little lost on their direction for Day 2. leetic faked a redcheck on nutella and is voting for her, ilario is voting alongside nutella elsewhere.
staypositivefriend - This is a hard slot. She did make a crucial vote for Jay at EOD1, though she did try to swap last second. She didn't voice an active interest in chopping Jay at the time, though she did earlier in the phase, and I do like her post about having to choose between her and anne. I think she looks slightly better than Dizzy does from their exchange.
falcon45ca - Townread because of Mac's clear.
nutella - My nutella read is all over the place, as esooa has pointed out. I still think that she's tonally sound in some spots, but has had missteps in others.
Dyslexicon - His Day 2 on the surface looks a lot better than his Day 1. His exchange with spf (as ilario I think pointed out) was kind of weird, especially given what else was going on in the thread at the time (he promised to give me read). My gut says he should probably be a little lower than this tbh.
MacDougall - Day 2 is better than Day 1. Bumping him to town for now because it appears he will probably self-resolve soon given his lover status.


POE

DrWilgy - MR was an interesting shot choice. On one hand, he did have a wagon take off and disappear yesterday. On the other hand, it was a miss, so so the "good shot" argument is one that scum could hide behind. I'll call that part a wash. He hasn't been specifically townie aside from his Day 2 POE attempts, which do line up with the consensus for the most part.
anne - I think her Day 2 has been ok. The argument that no one can be mech-cleared because of how the game is setup is true, but I'm slightly concerned she's making this argument to keep everyone open for potential mischop and to not actually clear anyone.
NotAnAxehole - Handling of Jay at the EOD1 wasn't great. I still thinks he is potential POE despite some resistance from others.
Esooa - Start of Day 2 didn't look great, but she did sub in, which is a difficult position to be in. She's tunnelling the bejeezus out of me. I disagree with the manner that it came about, in that she voiced a scumread, then hours later listed a bunch of reasons for it, many of them framing otherwise normal things in a negative light. I might be conf-biased on this one, so I'll try to let it percolate.