The Syndicate

tutuu wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:15 am why r u all convinced herm is town

alison do u remember cobbler

whats the difference between herm and cobbler

cobbler had a good opener and then slanked and we let him slip by.

Herm has been consistently town.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:16 pm I don't get how it makes nanook scum either. But it does make Herm town.

If you ask me to believe that Herm went into the scum chat and said "hey everyone, now I will fake a scumread on nanook, I'll tell everyone how he's super scum for not responding to me when I asked for the link to scumchat, then I'll make up some random % as a confidence level for my read!" That doesn't make sense to me. We talk about scummy agendas a lot and that usually means that the actions serve some malevolent, underlying purpose. This is a random shot in the dark with random reasons, it's not constructed, it's basically stream of consciousness.

Also the "if you're waiting for a big novel" post was pretty pure tonally.

Nothing Herm has done this game has been agenda pushing in any way. The thought process may be odd, but it's free and natural and fluid. The tone is pure. They haven't made many pushes and this is why people are scumreading them, but when they've made pushes, it's felt open and genuine.

Oddmerta wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:24 am Who is cobbler?

A player in another game me and tutuu played who flipped scum.

Oddmerta, I trust you and I'm here to townshield you, but other people don't. I need you to step it up and show them what you've got so they can see the light and know you're town.

What is your view on the decision between SPF/nutella/JPIC wagons?

tutuu how do you feel about a nutella flip today?

tutuu wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:49 am
Alison wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:49 am tutuu how do you feel about a nutella flip today?
im cool with it

i feel bad cuz i always scumread nutella and shes always town so im not gunning for it

I think Mac and I usually townread nutella in the games we've played when she's been town so I don't feel awful about a nutella exe right now. My gut says one thing, but Mac's logic is sound and I do think juliets is town but in a way that makes it sort of attractive for scum to attack.

The most important quality of a nutella exe for me is that she's the one we all agree on though. When I've seen a good case someone is scum and all my townreads agree, I am inclined to have that outweigh some vague gut read.

I guess let's consolidate on this. [VOTE: nutella] aubergine

Going quickly down the list of the rest of my supertown:

- Hally is sheeping whatever we're going with (and I think also independently scumreads nutella iirc)
- Odd has clearly stated that nutella is scum
- Samusamu thinks nutella is scum (called out a few of her posts, and then ticked yes in the "is nutella scum" questionnaire)
- juliets has no scumreads, but isn't actively townreading nutella
- Master Radishes' "instant reaction to the nutella wagon is a firm nod"
- Poison thinks nutella is null and doesn't have much to say against her, but definitely doesn't actively townread her.
- Tim... wait a minute, why is Tim in my supertown list? I have too much respect for his scum game to clear him this fast when he beeing going UTR. Back to my regular town list he goes! (he doesn't seem to have much of a read on nutella, checking his ISO)
- Herm's read on nutella is unclear. Said they were town earlier, but then appeared to have a falling out(?) where they said "you better have a good reason for scumreading me" JPIC style and then after that asked Samu if nutella was scum.

The conclusion here is that nobody in my supertown list actually hates the idea of a nutella wagon and several of these trusted friends actively think she should be killed. Gamestate wise, I have to believe that most of these reads are pure. I don't think nutella is LHF, so...

Maybe she's just a wolf. I'm good with this wagon.

tedxtr wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:20 am I don't think Nutella has been scummy enough to sit on 7 votes. What happened while I was gone?

The short version is that Mac pushed her for meta reasons and then she responded with a bad push on juliets (who by then was obvtown in my view), and Mac just went "okay, this is scum" and asked people who trusted him to get on her wagon.

tedxtr wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:05 am yo jpic did you get 1610

No, I got it

Please stop searing my eyes with your horrible colors

Seriously, these colors are actually really hard to read.

The bad news is that I disagree with a lot of your reads. The good news is that I think this readslist comes from town.

tedxtr wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:30 am
Alison wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:23 am Seriously, these colors are actually really hard to read.

The bad news is that I disagree with a lot of your reads. The good news is that I think this readslist comes from town.
That's alright, if I'm correct then we're probably going to be yeeting in what are the lower layers of town reads regardless until we reach wolf leans on my wolfs.

I'm actually very okay with my town reads. I see myself only changing my mind about maybe Wilgy or Radishes if he doesn't pick up steam but for D1 he was townie enough.

Your townreads is part of your readslist I agree with so I'm moderately happy with where you're at. I'm pretty sure we'll arrive at the same conclusions for who to exe.

Are you on board with killing nutella?

[mention]Samusamu[/mention] My read on juliets has increased in strength since I made that post. I am pretty sure she is town now. Mac, who I'm sure is town and who is familiar with juliets, is quite certain she is town, and the way she went about methodically trying to clarify everything she didn't understand and solve the game in a systemic way just bleeds town to me. Mac suggested that scum juliets tended to be a low-volume version of her town persona, which suggests that she has less energy as scum, but I'm seeing good energy in this game.

The way she just subbed into a scumread slot, went about collecting info on every player, created a really solid list of reads and then eliminates the unknowns one by one (inquiring into ted and nutella, etc.) is really townie. I don't think scum juliet in that position just goes along with the gamestate and lends full support to thread consensus reads - in that position she'd feel pressured to try to create some dissent in the town.

I'm just glad to see Mac is coming around on the Ted read tbh

Is it worth anything if I say that I say "I agree X should die but I wanna kill Y more" as town on a semi-frequent basis? Like it's just a sentiment I have a lot when I have two scumreads and one is stronger than the other but the weaker one is a more popular exe choice.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:10 am You're seeing a Juliets that is squarely in her scum range if you're trying to make an energy read. But she should be forgiven a bit for having to sub in. The best way to read her in this game is going to be if her reads and pushes are reasonable. Juliets is rarely an endgame player. As town she clears herself in the midgame and will catch kills either before that or because of that. As mafia she becomes POE clamped before endgame and doesn't have the forceful personality to post herself out of late game POE scenarios.

If we're reading juliets based on how reasonable/logical her reads and pushes are then I'm just going to locktown her right now because I don't think I've disagreed with a single word she's said ever since she's subbed him.

I'm curious to know what makes town juliets clear herself that scum juliets can't fake.

tutuu wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:13 am bizarre to me that ted also has herm in his top townreads, multiple ppl top townread herm. dont understand how was i supposed to catch him as town as easily as u guys did. but maybe some things are just meant to be and some things are not. maybe that is Destiny

when nanook said "hally for counterwagon" i had an amusing thought that if i had a gun and i had to shoot between hally and jpic id shoot hally

weirdchamp

Are you still TRing Colin off that one post you liked Mac? He's vanished again after earning townreads.

I feel like we should swap in and out of the ringleader role as is natural. It gives more perspective on the game and lets us just put whoever is most suited for interacting with a certain player or sorting a certain slot in front.

Colin's recent posts were good so he can be light town. Still don't trust him fully but I've been known to wrongly scumread him before so I'll suspend judgement on this slot.

Why has sprityo vanished off the face of the earth

juliets continues to be town.

sprityo's beetlejuice is noted.

If nutella is scum what the hell are her buddies doing? Are they just leaving her to twist in the wind when there are viable counterwagons to push? I'm getting cold feet.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:45 am
Alison wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:44 am juliets continues to be town.

sprityo's beetlejuice is noted.

If nutella is scum what the hell are her buddies doing? Are they just leaving her to twist in the wind when there are viable counterwagons to push? I'm getting cold feet.
Because she's your teammate?

Don't be absurd. If I wanted to dismantle the nutella wagon, I could have. I'm on it and I gave some very detailed analysis of why it was the correct choice. I'm just pointing out something that makes me uncomfortable, not saying we should all switch to JPIC.

tedxtr wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:46 am
Alison wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:44 am juliets continues to be town.

sprityo's beetlejuice is noted.

If nutella is scum what the hell are her buddies doing? Are they just leaving her to twist in the wind when there are viable counterwagons to push? I'm getting cold feet.
You shouldn’t imo.

If you couldn’t find wolves early it means that they let town do their thing and didn’t want to interfere much, why would they be doing that right now?

I don't understand this argument, are you saying the threadstate feels like it has very little wolf control?

Samusamu wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:46 am
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:42 am Hasn't evolved via reading since I logged off yesterday, but here's my list after sleeping on it:

Feel good about Mac, Hally, and Ted

Feel bad about Tim, Alison, tutuu, Nook and Hazelnut.

I don't recall why I felt that way about Tim, but something was off.

Nook and Ali were in a strange bucket of (maybe TMI) from them, the counter argument being "TMI may not exist in this game as scum may be hunting the rogues."

Tutuu felt off and angling was weird.

I don't remember what red flagged me on Tim.

Hazelnut felt detached.
This is a post perfectly structured for someone who rand mafia.

Good take. Still think Wilgy is town by a hair.

tedxtr wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:54 am Theory towards alison :

If nutella is a wolf, then the wolves aren’t doing anything because they have been busy doing their own thing, solving on their island or being narrowed down on a person at a time.

Or they have said nothing about her.

Or they just don’t have other options to look to.

Don’t dive in wifom until you get the flip. Flip wolves and then discover what a specific flip means.

Fair enough.

Samusamu wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:07 am Will u say of yourself that u have a big ego?

No.

@people who still scumread Hally: I don't think wolf Hally comes into the thread and just goes "yep, Alison and Mac have it handled. I'll just sheep everything they say and do." I think they'd feel obligated to try to use their position in the towncore to strongarm people, push narratives and agendas, and generally try to power wolf. It is difficult for me to see Hally getting into a position of being consensus townread and then just doing nothing with it if they were a wolf. It is also difficult for me to see wolf Hally letting power town call all the shots.

Possibly objections to this argument:

a) Maybe Hally wants to quietly kill you at night and take over!

- Not in this threadstate. I'm certain me and Mac will eat lead soon, but when we do, tutuu and ted will step up, and if/when they die, juliets and Master Radishes will. There are too many cleared townies to kill all of them. If Hally is wolf, they have to take control, and they've shown no inclination to do this at any point in time.

b) Maybe Hally is fine with letting you do whatever you want because they're convinced you'll lead town down the wrong path!

I'd like to think they have enough respect for me, Mac and tutuu's town play to at least feel obligated to guard against the possibility that we won't find the solve with such a strong towncore.

Hally wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:38 am
Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:39 pm Secretly I think Sprit may be reading this game better than anyone else.

Or maybe that's not right. But I do think we've reached a critical mass of town clears for such a large game. Red lights are flashing. A breach has occurred in the outer perimeter. The wolves are in.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not convinced the happy bouncy totes adorbs crew of Ali-Hally-Tutuu-friend is entirely clean, or maybe rather that the Just-ted-yos getting pushed are anything but independent townies getting boxed out into mischop territory, but also it's too early to worry about such things and I really just want to put these words on record for future cred.

I think I'm supposed to be good at this game but sometimes I wonder who decided that.
i like this post a lot from radishes

i guess i could read it as “scum trying to subvert the town core” but it doesn’t feel that way to me

it feels like a towny sentiment, like more town cautioning ppl as opposed to scum being nefarious. admittedly though, i’m having trouble putting into words exactly why i read it that way as opposed to the scummy interpretation, but maybe someone else who’s better at words can explain

I actually commented on this exact post before and said why I found it townie. The way I'd frame it is like this: Radishes is skeptical about how easy the game is, which is a townie attitude. But he's using that attitude to help town be less complacent, and not to undermine the towncore or fracture the trust between players who've found each other.

That's town.

Oh, and on that post - [mention]Master Radishes[/mention], various members of the towncore have found their way to townreading or at least giving a D1 pass to each person in that post you called out as "probably independent townies getting boxed into mischop territory". I hope that reassures you that we're still actively re-evaluating and sorting people, and not just coasting along in a big circlejerk and trampling over everyone else.

Hally wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:41 am oh EoD is today? i should probably be able to be here but it’s during my work shift so my attention will probably be divided

also once it gets busy at work i won’t be able to keep up with this anymore and will probably be behind at EoD. so rip. but i should be able to check in

As usual I can't guarantee anything wrt EoDs because I'm notorious for having a very bad time zone to be around at EoDs. If I can I'll be there, but I might not be able to.

Can you believe I ever had doubts about Samusamu? Jesus, past Alison, your reads are bad.

Herm wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:02 pm Like caught with a scumtell, or is it just people finding her scummy?

The latter. It wasn't a slip or anything, just a lot of stars aligning in a way that raises her wolf equity pretty high.

Herm wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:08 pm Oh wow.

Justplayingitcool is voting for himself. Is he doing that to get votes off him?

I think he's just trolling.

Justplayingitcool wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:49 pm
Oddmerta wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:46 pm
Justplayingitcool wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:45 pm Question: why do we keep brandishing out rogue like it’s supposed to mean something
In the opening post there is a thing about town, mafia and rogue existing in the game
Ah, so much for me bothering to read the opening post

I think this derpclear is legit and JPIC isn't rogue.

Which is important because if we believe the theory that JPIC would try harder not to let his team down if he was scum, then rogue is another possibility for him being scum but without a team to let down. (3Ps are more inclined to be trolly as well, especially if they're a Jester or something similar.) So ruling that out is good.

Anyone who wants to scumread Oddmerta can fight me tbh. He just bleeds town.

Tim, talk to me about the concerns you have with the towncore. Why do you think it's been infested by a wolf? Do you think the wolf in it is bussing nutella?

I think you are overestimating the difficulty of some of these towncore players replicating this level of towniness as scum. I have respect for their scumranges and all, but if someone is as town as tutuu or Hally or Mac, they're just town.

I don't buy the nutella busser theory. If there is a rotten egg in the towncore they would surely use their influence to stop a nutella exe. It wouldn't be hard. I could have dismantled the nutella wagon if I wanted, so could Mac or tutuu. To me it makes no sense for scum that's already super trusted to just let a teammate hang instead of saving them. You don't need any more towncred if you are Mac or tutuu or Hally, and you can shift the exe off nutella without being held accountable for it. Just say you scumread JPIC or SPF for some reason and it's off to the races.

Oddmerta wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:40 pm
Herm wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:35 pm I'm very unfamiliar with this eastablishing a town core on Day 1 strategy, ftr.
It is an interesting label but it's what happens every game

Nah. Not every game. But this game is very very well suited for it.

nutella is scum. Town nutella would be yelling at us to exe the wolf on her wagon and trying to figure out who on her train has malignant intent, not continuing to push on what is basically a vanity wagon at this point.

sprityo do you genuinely believe you have the clout to convince people to exe tutuu despite half the game townshielding her or is this case entirely performative? Like you can see that there's 90 minutes to EoD and there's 10 votes on nutella right?

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:47 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:42 pm sprityo do you genuinely believe you have the clout to convince people to exe tutuu despite half the game townshielding her or is this case entirely performative? Like you can see that there's 90 minutes to EoD and there's 10 votes on nutella right?
so is there any point to doing anything? i don't think anyone on her wagon is interested in moving

I guess my general point is that this entire push seems excessively performative and when you get down to it, it's just hiding on a vanity wagon tbh

Alright my head is spinning from tiredness so I'm going to lay down soonish. I feel like the thread is stagnating right now like dyachei points out and nothing really matters so I don't feel compelled to torture myself by staying up for an extra hour to be honest.

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:12 pm
Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:11 pm
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:08 pm
dyachei wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:06 pm i do think nutella is being bussed if she flips wolf
by who?
I'm gonna guess by wolves with Hellbusser clauses in their roles, which is imo a serious concern.
Hellbusser clauses???

Forced busses. For instance a Hellbusser scum vig would be a scum vig that's forced to shoot their own teammates. Hellbussing is technically a downside, but it sometimes makes it very difficult to solve the game because it compels scum to do things that's outside of their scum range (and therefore makes them hard to catch).

As a simple example, I think we can all agree that it's unlikely for a player like juliets or tutuu to just brutally murder their own teammates in cold blood as a wolf. If they were Hellbussing Gladiators or Vigilantes (two hellbussing roles I've seen recently), then they would publicly claim those roles, murder their teammate, and then get fake cleared because nobody is going to suspect juliets/tutuu of blasting their team away on purpose.

I thought about it for a bit and I sort of think if nutella is a wolf here her teammates are just going to do whatever the hell they want. Nobody's getting cred for bussing her because literally half the game is voting her (11/22 players), and nobody's really catching flak for being off the nutella wagon since they can always shrug and say "hey, nutella was obviously fated to die, I just wanted to push my pet scumread".

So nutella's teammates are probably just going to take the stance on nutella that's the most natural/logical progression for them to have given their "reads" so far and just go with the flow. I don't think they can do anything to change the outcome either since nutella didn't really defend herself and I suspect there's a massive weight of townies on the nutella wagon both from reads and from the sheer number of people piling onto her.

juliets has TMI? I'm sort of addled because I've been awake for a godforsaken amount of time but I definitely remember juliets calling you scum quite a bit, presumably you did not intend to imply she was TMI-ing you as scum?

I think sprityo can be scum but if he is he's just putting on a theater, not really trying to get tutuu's head in the noose. I have other reasons to read him town though.

reading sprityo town because you like the idea of getting a second wagon going is like praising an ice cube because you like the idea of ending global warming

The conspiracy theory is that the tutuu counterwagon is a false flag to make counterwagon attempts look silly in general but I don't think I can get there on sprityo being that manipulative as scum lol

why would you ask nutella to re-evaluate her confidence levels in reading you if you think she's just scum making up a case on you and/or doing this solely out of self-pres

dyachei wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:57 pm it's interesting that very few people are willing to commit to a read on nanook

Honestly it's because nanook would play D1 fairly similarly as either alignment and he keeps his cards close enough to his chest regardless of his faction that he often ends up being a wait and see slot whose alignment ends up being sorted by gamestate stuff. (eg. In amdibals game opinion of nanook was mixed and went back and forth until eventually we agreed that it was not a winning play for wolf nook to unconditionally sheep Mac and just sorted him as town from then on)

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