The Syndicate

nutella wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:36 am
It's obvious, come on. Several reasons. First of all, he really has no choice at this point since it's his last chance to appear town and convince us that he's his normal supertown self by doing ISOs and scumhunting. Of course he's doing this now. Second, if he's scum I would bet that he is using some sort of wifom trickery/manipulating his ISOs so that when he flips bad we'll be thrown off by his "reads" and not know which ones were real -- so he might be bussing teammates, or defending them, or otherwise completely throwing us off the trail in providing these reads.

@JaggedJimmyJay how are you deciding who to ISO? So far you've done bob, wilgy, malakim, and speedchuck. Those seem kind of random. What is your reasoning for choosing them?

They are players that I wanted a developed, thorough read on and that I felt the thread needed more analytic content for. malakim is mostly the product of Dom's replacement though -- it's an opportunity to do something with a previously empty slot instead of just make flier reads on a whim.

I've tried to explain why I've played this game the way I have. I know I don't look like the generic civilian JJJ looks. What I don't understand is why there'd be a perception that I am trying to look that way.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:43 am Now that you mention it it seems strange he's not focusing on people who could viably be lynched today.

There are two hours remaining. Nearly anyone can viably be lynched today. Given the freedom and total control, who would you lynch right now?

I wouldn't lynch malakim today.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:49 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:48 am I wouldn't lynch malakim today.

neither would i.

Immediate thoughts on what I said about speedchuck?

Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:41 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:29 am speedchuck stuff
TMI Alert. My initial reception of speedchuck's handling of LC/Epi was a positive one, but I disagree with myself now.

In a scenario where both Epi and LC are civilians, speedchuck has exonerated one and defended the other based on what I perceive to be pretty dubious premises. High-roading both of them, by essentially suggesting both were being dumb instead of being suspicious, may be suggestive of unique information in speedchuck's possession -- information which could only come from a mafia alignment at this point in the game.

Exactly how I feel about that.

Is this the core of your own speedchuck suspicion or is there more?

speedchuck wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:53 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:18 pm

speedchuck wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:17 pm Hm that's odd

What's odd?

DDL moving to JJJ.
That's like the opposite of what he was reading at the time right?

I read his jockeying over his read on me to be genuine.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:00 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:47 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:43 am Now that you mention it it seems strange he's not focusing on people who could viably be lynched today.

There are two hours remaining. Nearly anyone can viably be lynched today. Given the freedom and total control, who would you lynch right now?

cbob or speedchuck or maybe DDL

you've got the most votes right now and I trust about half of your voters but I've felt sincerity in your posts and actions but Nutella is right that maybe that really actually your goal, did you respond to nutella's post about that?

Yeah

Talk to me about your suspicion of DDL.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:59 am What the hell is the point of "GTH reads" when you don't hold someone accountable for lynching someone he said was good over someone he said was bad when both were in hot water and neither had any additional activity?

I don't give two thirds of a shit what my GTH reads were. This is weak bullshit. Are you telling me that I am supposed to be mindful of my GTH reads and vote in accordance with them, that I am obliged to do that?

Fuck that shit. Quin mentioned Mesk. I looked at the Mesk posts which did exist and decided that a large percentage of them were of no civilian value. That's a more substantive reason to lynch someone than I saw for Dom, which was the absence of activity altogether.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:07 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:03 am It still bugs me when people treat Dom and Mesk as if they were exactly equivalent.

Maybe it was different for you but I've never played with Mesk. To most of us, the lynches were very equivalent.

What do you think of Jimmy reversing his gth reads of Mesk and Dom even though neither posted anything to cause that reaction?

Why are you pretending Mesk didn't have 20some other posts?

A GTH read exercise does not exist to dictate future votes -- that's the mindset of a mafioso who feels some compulsion to be "consistent". GTH reads provide content for future analysis, real-time perspective on the participants, and stances on every player.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:13 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:09 am

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:59 am What the hell is the point of "GTH reads" when you don't hold someone accountable for lynching someone he said was good over someone he said was bad when both were in hot water and neither had any additional activity?

I don't give two thirds of a shit what my GTH reads were. This is weak bullshit. Are you telling me that I am supposed to be mindful of my GTH reads and vote in accordance with them, that I am obliged to do that?

Fuck that shit. Quin mentioned Mesk. I looked at the Mesk posts which did exist and decided that a large percentage of them were of no civilian value. That's a more substantive reason to lynch someone than I saw for Dom, which was the absence of activity altogether.

No. Fuck your GTH bullshit if that's how it plays out. What is the point of those things if people aren't supposed to go back and figure out why a person suddenly changed his mind?

"Of no civilian value?" I don't agree with that. Mesk said shit. She even said a thing that gave me a good opinion of her. You didn't bother to take that into consideration, but golly, Quin pointing out how many posts she has is enough to sway your vote?

Dom's posts were "Of no civilian value." He had basically none.

You said something in this thread somewhere about someone else taking their perspectives as gospel -- here you go. One moment that you liked does not determine how I vote.

The point of those things is variable by the people who do anything with them. I use them in interactive analyses more than anything else. Other people might do different things with them. They're multi-faceted.

To be consistent between GTH reads and a vote is the easiest thing there is for anyone who has a reason to give a shit. I don't.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:16 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:11 am A GTH read exercise does not exist to dictate future votes -- that's the mindset of a mafioso who feels some compulsion to be "consistent". GTH reads provide content for future analysis, real-time perspective on the participants, and stances on every player.

I am in the future. And I am analyzing you.

I am looking at what you said. You did a 180 when BOTH your bad and good call became serious lynch candidates.

Are you seriously- seriously- going to tell me that if somebody else called Dom bad, Mesk good, and then at the eleventh hour decided for the flimsiest of reasons to vote Mesk instead of Dom, that you would not be digging into that voter?

Your question is loaded, because "flimsy" is the perspective you have injected into it. I may well ask the inconsistency, but it wouldn't be an inspiring cause for a lynch. Civilians have no reason to give a damn about that.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:14 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:09 am

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:07 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:03 am It still bugs me when people treat Dom and Mesk as if they were exactly equivalent.

Maybe it was different for you but I've never played with Mesk. To most of us, the lynches were very equivalent.

What do you think of Jimmy reversing his gth reads of Mesk and Dom even though neither posted anything to cause that reaction?

Why are you pretending Mesk didn't have 20some other posts?

Because they all took place 6 days prior to you townreading Mesk.

Why are you pretending that multiple separate looks into a post history can yield different perspectives?

Also: an absence of posts does have no civilian value. No shit.

The presence of posts with no civilian value is an actual cause for suspicion. Posts that do nothing are more suspicious than nothing that does nothing.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:23 am what does this mean?

If I am to be suspected for the inconsistency in my handling of Mesk, and that the suspicion is rooted in her lack of posts during that period of inconsistency -- that means the remaining explanation exists in the posts that were in place before the inconsistency. There was a time that existed wherein I gave Mesk a GTH good read based upon what I recalled of her content in the moment of the exercise. There was a separate time that existed wherein I looked at Mesks posts again and decided I didn't like them. This last notion is being ignored in Jack's accusation.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:23 am I was not demanding that you be consistent. You keep using that word, as if I care that you were inconsistent. I don't. I care more about why you were. Your turnaround against Mesk in favor of Dom came with no substantive reasoning. Rather than challenge people's votes for Mesk (which were weak), you...bought what they were selling?

Sorry- it doesn't add up.

I did buy it. I thought the reasoning was substantive, or at least more than it was for a Dom lynch. You continue to tell me that the reason was flimsy or weak or lacking in substance or whatever, but you have not told me why the following assertion is a bad one:

A lack of posts is not ideal. This does not provide any civilian utility.

The presence of posts which do not provide any civilian utility is even worse.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:26 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:24 am Also: an absence of posts does have no civilian value. No shit.

The presence of posts with no civilian value is an actual cause for suspicion. Posts that do nothing are more suspicious than nothing that does nothing.

define "civilian value". Also explain why you justified your mesk vote by arguing that her posts lacked "utility".

A post which promotes a civilian-advantaged progression toward something, some discernible purpose, pursuit, or goal. I felt that a large majority of Mesk's posts failed to fit that description.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:30 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:24 am Also: an absence of posts does have no civilian value. No shit.

The presence of posts with no civilian value is an actual cause for suspicion. Posts that do nothing are more suspicious than nothing that does nothing.

No. I don't agree, and I don't think you truly believe this.

It is insanely easy to create posts that look useful, especially early on.

When you called Mesk good, what was it in her posts that gave you that perspective? And why did you decide so very late in the Day that her posts had "no civilian value?" She had no new posts.

She made a single comment about Kyle in one of her later posts which I thought connected decently with her initial not-giving-Day-1-reads-but-here-are-some-thoughts post. I decided that wasn't a good reason to lend town credit and could as easily represent manufactured input.

Well the avalanche has arrived.

If I do end up dead, a few parting words:

~ Any civilians who helped to kill me -- it's alright. I don't blame you. I understand that I have been a different player in this game and that is inherently going to generate suspicion. I'm over it.

~ Second, the activity level in this game has been fantastic to this point. The best thing the civilians can do moving forward is to maintain that through the finish. Do not let this game thread stagnate. That is the single best way to let a mafia team get comfortable.

~ Epi and Jack are full of shit right now. Press them on it when I'm gone. I'd also list Wilgy as a premier suspect.

~ My top town reads are Sloonei, dunya, and Quin.

~ I think speedchuck and malakim handled themselves well in this day phase, particularly toward the end. I'm less thrilled with Long Con.

~ Please at least give my ISOs a look, their primary value is as legacy and that's the whole point.

This was truly my magnum opus.

Really though good game, gang. The civilians put more collective effort into this game than I have ever seen in 24-hour days. 9 out of 10 mafias lose to that effort.

We were incredibly unlucky on top of that. We had the thread primed to start with two mislynches. They both failed, and the victims became confirmed townies instead. We killed both Sloonei and Epignosis before they could lead my destruction -- they both lived. We killed dunya before she could carry out her slaughter -- she lived.

Yeah by that point we were throwing hail mary passes. It was evident we had very few routes to victory after about the third failed kill.

Apparently half the team was invincible. :P

Amusing to discover that Olympus Mons was basically an anti-civilian role. The win condition may not literally state it, but if it's based on height and all the mafia are the shortest mountains, then, well...

dunya wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:10 am I'm surprised I didn't get killed in those 3 nights tbh.

You were the failed Night 5 kill. And Night 9.

My rage progressively grew, though I restrained myself from losing my head.

~ I wasn't here for Day 1, but an actual lynch of either nutella or LC would have been a great help. FAILED, and nutella rides the credit to end game.

~ I was here for Night 1, and I knew killing Sloonei would be beneficial to slow the crazy pace of the game and to prevent a guy who knows me well from catching my bullshit. FAILED KILL.

~ Day 2, oh cool, we can lynch either Sloonei or Jack instead. That will help us recover a ton; they're both highly active. FAILED, and Sloonei rides the credit to his death.

~ Night 2, let's kill Epignosis. He's one of the people here who can absolutely lead a successful lynch of JJJ. FAILED KILL.

Nights 3 and 4 we were more conservative with our kill choices and finally people died. Unfortunately I got lynched along the way, primarily driven at EOD4 by the two people who were supposed to be corpses.

dunya joined the game in there too, and that introduced an entirely new threat in place of my favorite mislynch target. We couldn't kill her on her first night in the game because that's incredibly rude. So we tried on her second night. NOPE.

Oh my goodness this one drove me nuts.

Oh well though, it was fun, I enjoyed hanging out with my teammates in BTSC. Elohcin especially did a great job to hang in there as best as she could under impossible POE circumstances. nijuu joined this game in a pretty hopeless position and made it a lot of fun to continue following. Wilgy was busy like I was; shit happens my friend.

That's why as a host I generally ask that questions be delivered privately. I understand that it's a bit party pooper though and don't judge other hosts for doing their thing.

Regardless of balance difficulties, I want to make it clear that the team which played the best Mafia in this game was the team that won. On a perfectly level playing field I think we still lose this game.

[mention]Marmot[/mention] your game was super neat, and it has regenerated my lust for travel. I want to see the big mountains.

The highest point in Ohio is 1,550 feet (472 m). It's so pathetic.