The Syndicate

Dafuq.

I typed some things up, but I don't know if I can post them now.

I definitely have conclusions based on the lynch as well, but I'm only half-paying attention at the moment and not sure if I need to tweak what I want to say when accusing certain players.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:08 pm The suckiest part is that we can't see the poll results from yesterday, nor can we go through the EOD to solve people from the lynch. Perhaps we should begin by asking for a little honesty session and trying to piece together who did what yesterday?

I can tell you who voted for 112 instead of Drago. And in what order. And the context of each vote. I was reading over it a few hours ago and made some notes.

I'm pretty sure that's allowed?

-JJJ, probably

iaafr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:16 pm oh wait im allowed to recommend voting within a group of 3 players minumum

ok heres the bottom 2 tiers of my list

idk

Lady Lambdadelta
Michelle
Pawn Lelouch
Rej
sprityo
Trustworthy Liberal

scum list

Creature
Elephant
Master Radishes
novaselinenever
Texas Cloverleaf
TonyStarkPrime

Hard disagree on 4 of your bottom list. What EoD were you reading?

Okay, I think what I wrote up is fine. The links won't work but I'm not editing them out now.



Assertion: there are definitely scum on the 112 wagon (regardless of 112’s alignment)

Reasoning: because the mafia would be bad at mafia if they didn’t try to save their mafia

Further reasoning: how EoD went down was very interesting; the vote went from 8-5 for Drago, to a sudden 8-8 tie, then last minute consolidated on Drago again – this really feels like some voters were trying to save Drago

So I’m going to look exclusively at 112 voters to decide which one seem like potential scum votes.


Creature
Voted over a day before EoD – followed vanity for pressure apparently, but I see no other reasoning for sticking with the 112 vote – had been bouncing around a lot before that
Was not around at EoD

Conclusion: sticking with an unexplained vote like that is nagl, imo, but vote itself is NAI

Epignosis
Voted many hours before EoD – only reason I could see was in a later readslist: “Eh. Would lynch. (Great start, right?)”
Was around at EoD and barely engaged with the Drago/112 wagons – didn’t even vote Drago to self-preserve when he was briefly the counter-wagon to Drago

Conclusion: Suspicious


Elephant
Voted 6 hours before EoD – had a scumread on 112 building long before that
Seemed to be around at EoD but was not interacting much – did not engage with final moments of the Drago/112 wagons

Conclusion: progression is clear = vote is NAI


Jack
Voted 5 hours before EoD – didn’t justify vote at all, and there was little progression towards it, beyond claiming he’d be willing to sheep nutella’s read
Was around at EoD and sat on 112 vote – hinted at a potential belief that Drago might be town.

Conclusion = Somewhat suspicious

Nova
Voted with 7 mins left, as the choice became clearly Drago v. 112
There is no justification – literally just dropped a vote right as Drago was pulling away, helping to tie the wagons up.
The rest of Nova’s EoD engagement basically revolved around trying to get Mac’s attention.

Conclusion: incredibly suspicious timing of vote

Evenstar
Voted with 3 mins left, tying the wagons up at 8-8 at a crucial moment
Simply says ‘idk if Drago is scum’
Only appeared in final minutes and mainly engaged about the Epi counter-wagon that was already dissipating

Conclusion: incredibly suspicious timing of vote

TonyStarkPrime
Voted ?time unkown? – there’s no correct vote-call in thread, but he’s included in poll numbers
At exactly EoD (:00) there’s an incorrectly-formatted vote, however. This was preceded 12 minutes earlier by statement that he would vote 112 over Drago, and there were hints of scumreading 112 earlier in the round.
Worth noting: up until the final 20-30 mins TSP was a legit wagon himself.

Conclusion: Definitely suspicious, but at :00 Drago was a clear lynch choice (10-7) so if TSP was scum trying to save scum it’s terrible timing.



OVERALL CONCLUSIONS
Evenstar and Nova closely resemble scum casually trying to swing the vote away from Drago.

Epi, Jack, and TSP are all potential scummates of Drago as well, based on how their votes went down, but there’s more room to interpret their actions differently.

Elephant and Creature are, at worst, NAI.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:22 pm So you don't see the potential of them being duelling scum wagons?

I do think it's possible, but I still think there are scum on the 112 wagon even in that case.

It really felt like a nudge to see if Drago could be saved - the counter-votes piled up on 112 suddenly and without anyone explaining it.

Continuation: I do think there are likely scum on Drago, but the way EoD unfolded I think there was an attempt to save Drago too. I only focused on that; didn't have time to look at Drago votes for a potential busser.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:26 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:24 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:22 pm So you don't see the potential of them being duelling scum wagons?

I do think it's possible, but I still think there are scum on the 112 wagon even in that case.

It really felt like a nudge to see if Drago could be saved - the counter-votes piled up on 112 suddenly and without anyone explaining it.

In the event of that being the case I'd say that there are likely to very few scum on the 112 wagon unless they were stuck there via distancing. If the scum had to choose Dragomir over 112 then they would have mostly jumped off. It's possible that the 112 wagon was initially just scum distancing thinking that there was no chance of the lynch occurring and then all dived off to Dragomir at the absolute last chance.

Maybe. But the only one I recall jumping over was Long Con.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:27 pm Evenstar

I am not going through the sexual jokes. They do not mean anything to me.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:49 pm

Dragomir wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:29 pm Why are there 9 freaking pages? I don't wanna read all that.

... you def signed up for the wrong game, between me, Mac and Nanook. (And uhhhhhh I'm sure there's someone else blabby here too. It'll come back to me.)

This is a small thing that is small point in Evenstar’s favor.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:18 am Oh, and by the way, Dragomir is very likely scum for engaging with that and taking it as far as he did. He's looking for excuses to spam the thread and look active. Also, he's terrible at flirting. In both cases: get some better content, bitch boy.

If I could vote, I'd be voting them right about now.

This though bears commentary, however, since Dragomir’s antics lead to Evenstar expressing a strong opinion early that ended up being correct. I think her ultimate vote on 112 indicates that she was not concerned with making a credit grab.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:37 am

Dragomir wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:34 am

Evenstar wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:32 am current scumreads:
Whatsisface morgan uhhhh Dragomir
112
iaafr

townies:
tony
mac
nutella

there should probably be more people here but I CBA this late

night all, flights of angels sing thee to thy rest etc etc

I suspect 112 and iaafr. How do you feel about that?

Depends. Why do you suspect them?

Good answer.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:32 am

Dragomir wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:02 am I don't vote on command.

The fact that you feel the need to say this in a phase with no voting is super mega off. Double-barreled FoS here, gonna drop my vote here when daystart happens unless something major intervenes.

I like this interaction. It does not seem phony.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:43 am

iaafr wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:34 am iaafr

creature
dragomir
michelle
sprityo
benson

evenstar
hyena

null line

112
macdougall
jackofhearts
nutella

why the fuck are both Creature and Dragomir so high here
Also not getting great vibes from benson
Nutella and Jack ought to be higher, too
overall, garbage readslist, making me feel worse about Iaafr

Evenstar challenging iaafr for this is also a good look.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:28 pm

Dragomir wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:15 am

Hyena wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:11 am -snip read wall-

You seem to be having a lot of town reads. Do you have any scum ones?

bad post tbqh

I’m fine stopping here and calling Evenstar unaligned with Dragomir.

Lol wut? How? There's nothing there that can't be construed as your bog-standard distancing. I don't even recall if she ever voted Drago as threatened in D0 - certainly she didn't keep pushing him once D1 started up.

Are you just hoping to bury the thread or something here?

Epi, Eva, Jack, Nova

^contains scum, maybe even more than one

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:38 pm

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:35 pm Damn, I'm seeing why Epi has a rep

this is good casework

I can't remember him actually doing this before lol

How do you feel about an scum!Epignosis world?

He's burying the thread in mountains of quotes and if you actually read some of his thoughts on them they're lacking.

I also wasn't a fan of his EoD voting behaviour - he was a counter-wagon for awhile (rather than 112) but never voted for Drago even for self-preservation.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:42 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:40 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:38 pm

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:35 pm Damn, I'm seeing why Epi has a rep

this is good casework

I can't remember him actually doing this before lol

How do you feel about an scum!Epignosis world?

He's burying the thread in mountains of quotes and if you actually read some of his thoughts on them they're lacking.

I also wasn't a fan of his EoD voting behaviour - he was a counter-wagon for awhile (rather than 112) but never voted for Drago even for self-preservation.

I didn't need too. And thank you for telling me how lacking my thoughts are. Good job good effort.

(a) didn't ask you
(b) just saying 'this looks good' on posts that are a bit solvely but clearly in someone's wolf range can reasonably be seen as 'lacking'
(c) thx for the compliment on my effort

Also disappearing.

This'll be a fun round.

For now I think I trust Rabbit, Mac, & Nook the most. I kind of want to like Dom too but will need to put any read on hold till we see more.

There are too many unknowns in this group. I fear that this is going to become an even 'smaller' group prone to manipulation if we don't get some more input from certain slots.

Bed time for this little radish.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:21 pm ... man, I really wonder what chaos is currently occurring in the other thread

The majority of players just vanished
Did someone die? Multiple someones? Were we announced as having moved or did we just vanish with no explanation?

Are there scum there? Are there scum here? Probably there are scum in both places, but idek what the point of... oh, duh, the voting rules and the power thing, those are relevant. Ok. And the scum are Leo and Co, so... they have to progress through the levels somehow? Did they set this up? Probably there's some limitation on what they can do...

Yeah I got nothing. I super want to see how this shit works behind the scenes.

Given that multiple levels exist and there were three in the movie, I think we can bet that this'll happen again tonight - some of us will move to a new thread, some of us will [whatever happened to the other 13 players]

is there even another thread

there is super probably another thread

that or we're on a ridiculous clock and half of us are dead, but I don't think the GM would do that to us

This is stupid and I should table it for now, I'm just making myself paranoid because "what if we're in here with an 8-man scum team", which... yeah lol not happening

Stop doing that thing where you sow chaos please. There's no evidence of another thread, there's certainly no 8-person scum team in here, there certainly are some scum in here, and anyway it doesn't matter because we have a game to play.

I've seen a few things directed my way; I may or may not have time this morning to get to responding to them before work.

I'm a bit taken aback no one is seeing EoD as I did. With under 10 mins to go there was a sudden push of votes that nearly prevented Drago (the Godfather) from being lynched. The three votes that essentially nearly prevented a scum being lynched were Nova, Eva, and TSP. I don't understand how there's not a scum in there.

Lady LambdaDelta wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 am

iaafr wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:43 am epi did some nice analysis posts that you could probably play off of but yeah not rly i guess

Having read them, I have a read on Epi but I'm not allowed to say it in isolation because that breaks the rules.

Pretty sure you're allowed to say if someone is town.

In fact, I'm pretty sure you're allowed to say 'I think Epi is suspicious because of x, y, z' - as long as you don't say anything along the lines of '...and I am likely to vote for him.'

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:08 pm Game isn't until 8:08, so I have ten minutes.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:20 pm
Epignosis
Voted many hours before EoD – only reason I could see was in a later readslist: “Eh. Would lynch. (Great start, right?)”
Was around at EoD and barely engaged with the Drago/112 wagons – didn’t even vote Drago to self-preserve when he was briefly the counter-wagon to Drago

Conclusion: Suspicious

As far as I remember, my vote went there for no real reason at all. Reasons developed later. One big one for me was that 112 voted for me based on something he said- not something I said- and framed it as though it made me guilty. That's trash. That's trying to keep his hands clean voting for someone nobody was really talking about. Don't believe me? 112 ended up on Trustworthy Liberal- someone nobody was really talking about.

Bear in mind that if I'm bad, I am not letting my godfather get lynched Day 1. I know that might not mean anything to you since you do not know me, but when I am on a mafia team, I try to make optimal, coordinated decisions and not drop the ball. Letting your godfather get lynched Day 1 is arguably the most sub-optimal thing you can do.

If 112 is Dragomir's teammate, it makes all the sense in the world to let himself (112) get lynched. That would preserve the godfather. 112 didn't have the thread presence to push anybody else, couldn't vote for himself (and maintain any credibility), and if he voted for Dragomir late, he would be surrendering his godfather with less hope that he could be spared. I wonder if 112's hands were tied.

Thank you for the response, and I'm fine with your reasoning for voting 112. And obviously I agree with the rationale around preventing a Godfather lynch - hence why I'm so concerned about the last minute votes for 112 that smell like an attempt to save Drago. (Evenstar and Nova, that is.)

Re: third paragraph - I don't recall 112 being around at EoD, and their own wagon sprung up relatively quickly towards the end (it was floating around 2-3 votes, iirc, but only became a serious counter-wagon in the final, eh, 20-30 minutes or so). So I don't think there's much we can read into someone simply not being present.

Lady LambdaDelta wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:50 am Anyway Epi's posts are performative, not informative and they're designed to seep into the nature of people's want for content.

It's IIoA. They say many words, but not much in the end.

More than that, they're doing the Bullets for Bullets tactic I outlined in my scum guide. It feels like the goal of the posts is to be unreadably long and make you skim and say generally "agreeable" things people can't exactly contest without strictly committing anywhere.

I don't disagree. And as for the content of them, I haven't read each of Epi's posts, but of the ones I did, I agreed with a couple of his conclusions, but not strongly so; and I disagreed with a couple and wasn't sure how he arrived at his conclusions.

LLD - if you get a chance can you read what Epi said about Eva? I felt that one particularly was lacking, but admittedly I'm beginning to hone in on Eva as a potential scum based on her last-minute vote that nearly saved Godfather-Drago from being lynched.

iaafr wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:54 am radishes my main issue with your EOD analysis is that you seem to be taking it for granted that scum thought saving dragomir would be a longterm good plan and worth conspicuously saving despite his apparently horrible standing which would imply he wouldnt last more than 2 more phases imo

seems like an agendaed assumption

The 112 counterwagon was a valid one, though - if 112 ended up lynched and flipped town, no one would point the finger at any one voter. 112 has been a viable scum candidate and we'd all shrug and move on.

As for Drago, there are plenty of valuable scum roles in the game, but surely the Godfather would be one worth saving if there's a chance?

I just don't see a scum attempt to prevent Drago's lynch as a risky move - if it had worked. And it nearly did. It was literally the last two minutes that Hyena and Long Con (I think) voted to lynch Drago.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:48 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:51 pm Welp, [VOTE: Dragomir] aubergine then. Not sold on a 112 lynch.

Beyond the reason supplied here, I have no idea why Radishes voted Dragomir.

There were 30 players in the game and my time is limited. I paid little attention to drago but I liked who was on his wagon more than who was on 112's. I had wanted a TSP lynch but my fellow TSP voters switched off to Drago.

Also, meta. 112's town game is full of inconsistencies and unexamined read switches. I think their round was poor, and am very willing to entertain them as scum, but I read it as a lack of effort as opposed to a nefarious agenda. Either way, I'd love to see more from them today.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:24 am Who likes cheesecake?

Not me. Don't like cheese full stop.

Ugh. Phone posting is the worst. I'm going to stop.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:24 am

Quin wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:13 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:39 am I wanna know what @Quin thinks about all this?

he's pretty tired and regretful of not keeping up but unashamedly thinks he'll do better once more of you are dead

but not you mac, you should live

Ok you can be in the clerb

What's a clerb and can I be in it.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:59 am @Evenstar if I said you’re town, would you agree?

Nanook, I really want to scum read evenstar but no one else seems to agree. Why not?

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:45 am

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:36 pm Epi, Eva, Jack, Nova

^contains scum, maybe even more than one

triggered.gif

Why? I townread everyone in this pile except Nova, who I don’t really have a read on.

That's based on who voted against Drago and who is in this group. I hesitate to be more specific about which ones I'm leaning more towards.

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:45 am One other question, what are we thinking set-up wise in terms of team numbers? I’ve seen references to 8 scum but do we think 1 team? Indies, etc. ?

There was mention of a 3P role in the old thread. I don't recall specific numbers on how many scum.

Lol, Jack launching a smear campaign against me.

112 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:28 pm I made peace long ago. If my peers wish my life exhausted- so be it, and so be me avenged.

Boo. If you're town, you're not playing to your win con with this attitude.

I do find it amusing how the three of four people I suggest had scummy votes at EoD are now throwing shade back at me for it. (+Rabbit, but he's thrown shade at everyone in the game twice over by this point.)

Either I'm a genius who has half-solved the game or I've taken a wrong turn somewhere along the way.

Two roads diverged in the dream, and I -- I took the one less travelled.

Michelle wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:54 am

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:48 am

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:45 am One other question, what are we thinking set-up wise in terms of team numbers? I’ve seen references to 8 scum but do we think 1 team? Indies, etc. ?

There was mention of a 3P role in the old thread. I don't recall specific numbers on how many scum.

Drago asked iaafr if he's 3rd part in one post, i don't remember the answer.

Actually, I meant that in the OP there was a list of roles likely to be included and 3rd Party was included.

There was a list of mafia roles too, but I don't remember how many. Janitor, Strongman, Godfather of course...a couple others.

I don't remember if the OP stated they were definitely in the game or just possible. I think the latter?

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:07 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:29 pm

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:21 pm ... man, I really wonder what chaos is currently occurring in the other thread

The majority of players just vanished
Did someone die? Multiple someones? Were we announced as having moved or did we just vanish with no explanation?

Are there scum there? Are there scum here? Probably there are scum in both places, but idek what the point of... oh, duh, the voting rules and the power thing, those are relevant. Ok. And the scum are Leo and Co, so... they have to progress through the levels somehow? Did they set this up? Probably there's some limitation on what they can do...

Yeah I got nothing. I super want to see how this shit works behind the scenes.

Given that multiple levels exist and there were three in the movie, I think we can bet that this'll happen again tonight - some of us will move to a new thread, some of us will [whatever happened to the other 13 players]

is there even another thread

there is super probably another thread

that or we're on a ridiculous clock and half of us are dead, but I don't think the GM would do that to us

This is stupid and I should table it for now, I'm just making myself paranoid because "what if we're in here with an 8-man scum team", which... yeah lol not happening

Stop doing that thing where you sow chaos please. There's no evidence of another thread, there's certainly no 8-person scum team in here, there certainly are some scum in here, and anyway it doesn't matter because we have a game to play.

You think Jay invited a bunch of new players for a 30 player game and then killed like 10+ players with no flips on N1?

It’s a reasonable assumption.

Baseless accusation.

The underlined was poorly worded. I didn't mean to state outright I believed the other players didn't have another thread - I think that makes sense - but I meant it had no bearing on us, here, now.

But Evenstar was wildly speculating in a way that did not help solve the game, only monger doubt. I know she has a rep for chaos-posting regardless of alignment, but this was not a great post from town!Eva either.

Smear campaign.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:10 pm

Michelle wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:34 am got it thanks.
thoughts on Radishes?

His pushes on Epi and Eva seem dishonest to me.

Like about as dishonest as ifaar and 112.

What does 'dishonest' even mean here? You may disagree, but my rationale was clearly laid out.

Smear campaign.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:13 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:46 am

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:45 am

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:36 pm Epi, Eva, Jack, Nova

^contains scum, maybe even more than one

triggered.gif

Why? I townread everyone in this pile except Nova, who I don’t really have a read on.

That's based on who voted against Drago and who is in this group. I hesitate to be more specific about which ones I'm leaning more towards.

So level one. Cool cool.

Yeah, sure, 'level one' if you want to call it that. Why are you assuming we need to go to level gazillion to solve this game? 'Level one' is just a condescending way of dismissing what I might term a 'tried and true' method.

Smear campaign.

---

Jack, this is the most intensity you've shown all game, after floating through D1 with little impact on the evolving discussion of that round, beyond a brief foray into the nutella/Eva dichotomy. Nagl 4 u, imo.

At some point I'm going to recalibrate and try to establish a worldview from an opposite PoV of what I have now.

But first I need to work some more, make dinner, etc.

Actually, first I'll quickly make my position clear:

A) It is ridiculous to suggest scum weren't on the 112 wagon, regardless of 112's alignment. If anyone was actually here and watching in real time (I was keeping up, but was only half-focused because of real life matters) then at 7 mins to go the wagons were 8-5 (Drago-112) and by 3 mins to go they were 8-8. It was literally only the last minute that Drago was decidedly lynched.

B) 112's alignment obviously affects matters, but I simply hadn't enough time to cover both town!112 and scum!112 worlds before D2 ended. I tackled town!112 first, because the last minute fluctuations felt, to me, that scum tried to save Drago but didn't have enough of them present to do it.

C) From a town!112 worldview, the votes I pointed out (Nova and Eva) looked most obviously like scum trying to save Drago. A few others (TSP, Epi, Jack) for various reasons might be seen as scummy, might not be. Creature and Elephant were NAI.

C.1) I had Evenstar as likely V yesterday, but based on her vote I began to look at her under a red light. Her play this round has reinforced my view, as I feel she's not actually focused on gamesolving and is instead tossing questions to her familiars (Nook, Pawn, sorta LLD) with a touch of chaosposting.

C.2) I had Epi as null+ yesterday, and didn't initially mind his SoD reads. But his analysis of Evenstar was lacking, IMO, as he cleared her for things that she should not be cleared for. Seeing as he was one of my 'potential scum votes' I pushed a bit there, and when he responded to me I liked his responses well enough. But a potential association has been established in my scum!Eva worldview. And I don't accept clearing him for 'hard work', as I seem to recall someone in the D1 thread pointing out Epi does that as either alignment.

C.3) Jack I went from scumread to townread and then to null in D1. I had no plans to push there but his recent attempt to discredit everything I've said here has created an association within my worldview as well.

C.4) Nova was, I thought, actually the scummiest vote, but so far the other three have all hinted at a scumread of him, I think? So IMO he's either the scum I'm looking for or the odd one out.


Took too much time on that. Definitely need to get to work now.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:05 pm “Poorly worded” implication that Eva was “chaos posting” and therefore scum. Talk about a smear campaign.

We’ve gone over your post on Eva. I didn’t like your post(s) on Epi where he did long interactive isos and came to some sort of conclusion about the alignment of each player. I think they make Epi look really good and since the D1 thread is now gone, those posts are basically allowing me to develop reads on players I paid no attention to D1 or who posted in the 10 or so pages I missed.

Here’s what you have to say about it though.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:40 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:38 pm

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:35 pm Damn, I'm seeing why Epi has a rep

this is good casework

I can't remember him actually doing this before lol

How do you feel about an scum!Epignosis world?

He's burying the thread in mountains of quotes and if you actually read some of his thoughts on them they're lacking.

I also wasn't a fan of his EoD voting behaviour - he was a counter-wagon for awhile (rather than 112) but never voted for Drago even for self-preservation.

Talk about a smear campaign.

I called your reads level 1 because you admitted they’re basically pure wagonomics and there’s nothing more to say about them. I don’t take it back.

Whatevs. You have your narrative, I have mine.

iaafr wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:55 pm don't think im doing anything substantive today other than what I've said

scumlist still lld radishes and then Dom or quin or pawn idk

lld's scumread of epi still exaggerated as well as her reaction to me disagreeing with that read

radishes eod analysis still agendaed and distorted

Dom's push on me still stupid and he's still shading me without actually engaging with any of the reads (acts as if I didn't give any reads after implying my reads list is full of omgus [no u]????)

and uh quin quoted my read on him/tsp and called it just interesting...? honestly wtf lol

Rabbit, your little bounce-around-scumreading-everyone thing is fine for D1, but we have half decent info now. I expected your thoughts would expand accordingly.

You're a perceptive player when you want to be and I respect that. Why do you call my analysis agendaed and distorted? Just because you disagree?

iaafr wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:09 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:08 pm Rabbit, your little bounce-around-scumreading-everyone thing is fine for D1, but we have half decent info now. I expected your thoughts would expand accordingly.

You're a perceptive player when you want to be and I respect that. Why do you call my analysis agendaed and distorted? Just because you disagree?

yes.

also most of that info disappeared so I can't access it directly, only with memories.

but yes the emphasis on the godfather role feels unnatural to the point of wolfy to me.

iaafr wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:42 pm

ColinIsCool wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:40 pm

iaafr wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:38 pm now Colin's crutching on godfather shit too

Meaning?

I don't know maybe I'm just getting unduly overly pinged by it but I feel like both you and radishes keep mentioning the godfather being lynched in a way that makes it seem like a bigger deal than it was

You're mis-representing me here, Rabbit. I brought it up once, I think - maybe twice but the second time was following up from the first. It wasn't a big factor in my EoD analysis. Scum is scum, and Drago was scum.

And anyway, I'm used to thinking of the Godfather as a pretty important role. I didn't consider the lack of claims because that's completely new to me and it slipped my mind that it was a part of this setup. I haven't brought it up since you pointed that out, I don't think.

If that's really the main reason you're scumreading me then I don't know what to tell you - it was a minor point I made that you pointed out the flaw in, and I have not 'kept mentioning it' like you claim.

iaafr wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:26 pm I haven't been reading pages I missed

does anybody scumread epi other than lld

Since Evenstar brought my name up, let me reiterate: I think Epi fits into a scum!Eva world because I felt his analysis of her interaction with Drago was poor, and I think Epi's vote on 112 could potentially read as a scum voting slot based on how it went down. I'm not outright scumreading Epi, however. Overall I think his play has been fine.

Call him Null, or Null- perhaps.

112 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:05 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:02 pm

iaafr wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:26 pm I haven't been reading pages I missed

does anybody scumread epi other than lld

Since Evenstar brought my name up, let me reiterate: I think Epi fits into a scum!Eva world because I felt his analysis of her interaction with Drago was poor, and I think Epi's vote on 112 could potentially read as a scum voting slot based on how it went down. I'm not outright scumreading Epi, however. Overall I think his play has been fine.

Call him Null, or Null- perhaps.

also mr what if eva's town

I've not actually dismissed that possibility. I tunneled a bit to start this day, but I did have a TR on her in D1 (but can't go back to confirm to myself why). She said something (I'm just in another tab looking for it now) that also made sense to me about her play today.

If Eva is town, immediately I think Nova is scum.

But tbh resolving you would be better. It could validate or invaldiate my whole line of thinking. Prove yourself town if you are, pls n thx.

iaafr wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:09 pm how's it a minor point if it's a key assumption in your eod analysis

Evenstar wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:10 pm Yeah Radishes is full of shit regarding "I wasn't pushing the Godfather thing."

I guess I should go back and look at what I said, but in my mind that was just one more reason to confirm my suspicions, not a 'key assumption'.

Drago was scum. He nearly didn't get lynched. Therefore, I think there are mafia on the 112 wagon. The Godfather aspect is not, to me, a key part of that equation. If it came across like I was making it out to be, then I guess I got caught up in trying to convince you of my views and exaggerated it, but it was never in my mind a defining factor.

And, again, the no-claims thing slipped my mind. I've never played with that rule before, and I didn't think to apply it to what it meant for a Godfather role (especially as on my home site we don't often use the role, and when we do we call it the Kingpin).

Pawn Lelouch wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:26 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:09 pm Actually, first I'll quickly make my position clear:

A) It is ridiculous to suggest scum weren't on the 112 wagon, regardless of 112's alignment. If anyone was actually here and watching in real time (I was keeping up, but was only half-focused because of real life matters) then at 7 mins to go the wagons were 8-5 (Drago-112) and by 3 mins to go they were 8-8. It was literally only the last minute that Drago was decidedly lynched.

B) 112's alignment obviously affects matters, but I simply hadn't enough time to cover both town!112 and scum!112 worlds before D2 ended. I tackled town!112 first, because the last minute fluctuations felt, to me, that scum tried to save Drago but didn't have enough of them present to do it.

C) From a town!112 worldview, the votes I pointed out (Nova and Eva) looked most obviously like scum trying to save Drago. A few others (TSP, Epi, Jack) for various reasons might be seen as scummy, might not be. Creature and Elephant were NAI.

C.1) I had Evenstar as likely V yesterday, but based on her vote I began to look at her under a red light. Her play this round has reinforced my view, as I feel she's not actually focused on gamesolving and is instead tossing questions to her familiars (Nook, Pawn, sorta LLD) with a touch of chaosposting.

C.2) I had Epi as null+ yesterday, and didn't initially mind his SoD reads. But his analysis of Evenstar was lacking, IMO, as he cleared her for things that she should not be cleared for. Seeing as he was one of my 'potential scum votes' I pushed a bit there, and when he responded to me I liked his responses well enough. But a potential association has been established in my scum!Eva worldview. And I don't accept clearing him for 'hard work', as I seem to recall someone in the D1 thread pointing out Epi does that as either alignment.

C.3) Jack I went from scumread to townread and then to null in D1. I had no plans to push there but his recent attempt to discredit everything I've said here has created an association within my worldview as well.

C.4) Nova was, I thought, actually the scummiest vote, but so far the other three have all hinted at a scumread of him, I think? So IMO he's either the scum I'm looking for or the odd one out.


Took too much time on that. Definitely need to get to work now.

A: Agreed. There was absolutely scum on 112 regardless of their alignment, though good odds some were on Drago at the end, especially in a dual scum world. In a singular scum wagon world most of the Drago votes on the early section/middle are the main to look at in terms of sus. Since Hyena and LC doing the quite literal last minute votes when pushed isn't the best look but they aren't here now, so we need to make do.

B: Fair reasoning due to the save Drago vibe.

C: Agreed on the scummy votes and the questionable ones. Why are those 2 NAI though?

C1: Chaosposting and touching with familiars is extremely common with ES regardless of alignment. Though I do agree with the rest about her EOD vote being an extremely bad look.

C2: Hard work clearing is BS, we agree on that. Right now I currently town lean him regardless of the analysis posts, though I acknowledge that he has a potentially bad associative with Eva.

C3: Curious as to some of the specific associations.

C4: Basically scum or twtbaw, with the actual scum taking advantage of a free ML from your perspective? With no clue as to which yet?

Thank you for the response.

C: Elephant and Creature are NAI because they voted a day (real time) before the lynch occured, and neither were present at EoD. Therefore nothing can be gleaned from their votes w.r.t. being Drago's teammates.

C1/C2: that's fine, my reads on them aren't as strong as Jack or Rabbit seem to think they are, but I got caught on the defensive earlier and pushed back so I get how I came across.

C3: Jack is associated in an Eva/Epi/Drago world because he came in hard to discredit me about my reads on them and was also one of the 'potential scum votes' on 112. It fits, but I know that doesn't mean it's correct.

C4: Right now I'd say if we're agreeing Evenstar is V, then I think Nova's vote becomes the automatic scum vote on 112. It came out of nowhere and helped tie up the Drago/112 wagons at 8-8. (TSP is also in this space, but is not here obviously).

Evenstar wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:39 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:09 pm Actually, first I'll quickly make my position clear:

A) It is ridiculous to suggest scum weren't on the 112 wagon, regardless of 112's alignment. If anyone was actually here and watching in real time (I was keeping up, but was only half-focused because of real life matters) then at 7 mins to go the wagons were 8-5 (Drago-112) and by 3 mins to go they were 8-8. It was literally only the last minute that Drago was decidedly lynched.

B) 112's alignment obviously affects matters, but I simply hadn't enough time to cover both town!112 and scum!112 worlds before D2 ended. I tackled town!112 first, because the last minute fluctuations felt, to me, that scum tried to save Drago but didn't have enough of them present to do it.

C) From a town!112 worldview, the votes I pointed out (Nova and Eva) looked most obviously like scum trying to save Drago. A few others (TSP, Epi, Jack) for various reasons might be seen as scummy, might not be. Creature and Elephant were NAI.

C.1) I had Evenstar as likely V yesterday, but based on her vote I began to look at her under a red light. Her play this round has reinforced my view, as I feel she's not actually focused on gamesolving and is instead tossing questions to her familiars (Nook, Pawn, sorta LLD) with a touch of chaosposting.

C.2) I had Epi as null+ yesterday, and didn't initially mind his SoD reads. But his analysis of Evenstar was lacking, IMO, as he cleared her for things that she should not be cleared for. Seeing as he was one of my 'potential scum votes' I pushed a bit there, and when he responded to me I liked his responses well enough. But a potential association has been established in my scum!Eva worldview. And I don't accept clearing him for 'hard work', as I seem to recall someone in the D1 thread pointing out Epi does that as either alignment.

C.3) Jack I went from scumread to townread and then to null in D1. I had no plans to push there but his recent attempt to discredit everything I've said here has created an association within my worldview as well.

C.4) Nova was, I thought, actually the scummiest vote, but so far the other three have all hinted at a scumread of him, I think? So IMO he's either the scum I'm looking for or the odd one out.


Took too much time on that. Definitely need to get to work now.

A) I agree.
B) I have no idea what to think about 112. The wagonomics say town, their play says scum. Now that I consider again, I feel like the "godfather save" theory could be correct: it explains why the last-ditch Epignosis counterwagon was a thing, the weird collapse of the 112 wagon, and why 112 still looks awful today.
C) Honestly, I stand by my 112 vote. They've been weirdly abrasive and noncontributory all game. Maybe I should've trusted my distaste for Dragomir and voted there, but IME my gut reads suck.
C.1) I scumhunt by calling people scum until one of them makes it obvious they are. That seemed to be banned in this environment. Since then, Dom's posting has made it pretty clear that I'm actually allowed to suspect people, so I'm putting more pressure down now.
C.2) I agree that hard work isn't clearing, but there are other reasons to not suspect Epignosis, such as the late counterwagon on him and the tone quality of his posts. (I get that you don't like his tone/analysis depth: personally I feel like he's doing the right level to actually solve rather than to advertise "look at me I'm so town.")
C.3) I don't remember anything of value from Jack D1 and his D2 doesn't appeal to me either. He definitely deserves pressure.
C.4) Nova's vote was terrible, and he's lurking like hell. He was also a participant in the counterwagon against Epignosis. The evidence against him is pretty damning IMO.

Thanks for responding. I feel you've not been engaging with me this game and that makes it difficult for me to resolve my read on you.

C: That's fine, I think 112 was a viable candidate yesterday. I just didn't like the timing of your vote considering the red flip.
C1: This seems a reasonable explanation for your play today. I accept it, on the condition that I do indeed notice you go back to your game as you describe it here.
C2: I mostly agree with you about Epi, but I just don't think it clears him, especially as a couple analyses of his (including his one on you) didn't actually match what I saw from the quotes he quoted.

It's good to be on a laptop again. Suck it, mobile phone users.

Gonna make dinner now.

iaafr wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:35 pm I still think 112 is town and radishes is scum.

there's just like a perspective and priorities sniff test he doesn't pass for me

I also don't trust 112s read on radishes because people with meta on each other often don't have better than Rand rate at reading each other. I got burned recently by trusting duk3 and Colin (diff Coli

Agree about meta reads.

But I just really don't get what it is you don't like about me. As far as I can tell you just disagree with my wagonomic conclusions.

You're a pretty high townread for me, so it's a bit disappointing. But not anime betrayal level or anything. I can live with it.

iaafr wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:50 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:48 pm

iaafr wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:35 pm I still think 112 is town and radishes is scum.

there's just like a perspective and priorities sniff test he doesn't pass for me

I also don't trust 112s read on radishes because people with meta on each other often don't have better than Rand rate at reading each other. I got burned recently by trusting duk3 and Colin (diff Coli

Agree about meta reads.

But I just really don't get what it is you don't like about me. As far as I can tell you just disagree with my wagonomic conclusions.

You're a pretty high townread for me, so it's a bit disappointing. But not anime betrayal level or anything. I can live with it.

I've been softening and on the verge of flipping for awhile

can I ask what your bottom 4 in this pool looks like as of this moment?

Let me think about it. I've been so focused defending my reads that I haven't taken the time to actually look at others (beyond inital impressions).

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:52 pm Hi I’m nanook I kill scum and I’m here for the next 2-10 minutes, ama

I guess we're all waiting for Pawn to get his laptop.

Some random questions:

Thoughts on Nova?

Who are your remaining nulls?

Don't be specific or anything, but do you think you know how you're going to vote yet?

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:10 pm Today was a circus. I would not have been surprised to have looked out into the hall and spied a juggling bear on a unicycle. I saw plenty else.

Did someone say you were a teacher? Me too. I empathise.



@all - I think I'm going to drift off. Ping me for whatever.