The Syndicate

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:56 pm Legacy: Boq flips T hit SPF and Aro with a shovel

Boq flips wolf yeet Lily into the sun.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:58 pm Also I think I've moved Rondo in my reads and Aro down lower. I think Aro could be the stronk wolf Slot.

That doesn't work if Boq is W tho.

Wilgy legacies, presume he was killed over me for these reads

Couldnt find anything particularly useful from nook slot that would give away why he was NK'd over me but level 1 easy to assume cuz he tunnel spf and I defended spf

Anyways I'm back I cant sleep in the slightest my brain hamster is sprinting on the wheel

arogame123 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:13 am
Lilypetal wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:09 am
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:08 am is it +wolf to vote when Porscha said she was sleeping (Ignoring the fact she is still [REDACTED])
i dont know what redacted means
She's unsure I believe is the redacted lol

No he was angle shooting that I was online still

Lilypetal wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:57 am
Porscha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:54 am
Porscha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:52 am
Lilypetal wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:51 am ive been silently tinfoiling porscha all game because she was really solvey and posting like lots of shit the past few days and she hasn't done that in other town games
i'm googling my nearest bridge rn
also I know you are lying just look at maf misplay I had an entire page of posts with neon that nobody read
bruh i read those

no its just like different maybe it's the colors

naur not the colors. lmao

Porscha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:52 am
Lilypetal wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:51 am ive been silently tinfoiling porscha all game because she was really solvey and posting like lots of shit the past few days and she hasn't done that in other town games
i'm googling my nearest bridge rn

also I know you are lying just look at maf misplay I had an entire page of posts with neon that nobody read

Lilypetal wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:51 am ive been silently tinfoiling porscha all game because she was really solvey and posting like lots of shit the past few days and she hasn't done that in other town games

i'm googling my nearest bridge rn

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:49 am Does Aro, Lily make sense? Aro is the only one who stood up for Lily just now :think:

aro stands up for everybody

Lilypetal wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:45 am @Porscha are you going to vote spf?

idk

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:42 am
Porscha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:42 am
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:40 am
arogame123 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:36 am
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:34 am Fuck my urge to vote lily is so strong right now
why? Because they claimed earlier lol?
because we are in lylo and any town claiming to be wolf in a serious situation like this needs to be punished and any wolf bold enough to claim needs to be punished
do you guys think rondo bussed alison
never would I think I caught Creature if I was bussing Alison I would just keep on Alison day 2

why not ML creature and then bus alison and find any excuse to excuse it

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:40 am
arogame123 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:36 am
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:34 am Fuck my urge to vote lily is so strong right now
why? Because they claimed earlier lol?
because we are in lylo and any town claiming to be wolf in a serious situation like this needs to be punished and any wolf bold enough to claim needs to be punished

do you guys think rondo bussed alison

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:34 am Fuck my urge to vote lily is so strong right now

control yourself

i'm like 80% into mens 20% into womens but unless anybody is tryna hold my hand it doesnt matter

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:28 am I am sad that Porscha has gone to bed without addressing my SPF/Porscha world, it worries me further.

I get that she needs to sleep but it only solidifies it more

rondo stop this I want you to be town

(idk if I even saw the post tbh)

Lilypetal wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:19 am
Porscha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:18 am
Lilypetal wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:16 am im playing league
add me so we can play cuz neon hates me and won't play with me
add lilypetal

got u

k good night gamers

Lilypetal wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:16 am im playing league

add me so we can play cuz neon hates me and won't play with me

arogame123 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:47 am @Porscha What made you go from "lock-town" reading SPF yesterday and trying to push elsewhere, to hard sr her now? What was ur progression/thought process there?

idk yet i really need game to go into tomorrow cuz I have to be up for work in 6 hours as it is

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:36 am
Porscha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:29 am
arogame123 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:24 am
Porscha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:22 am
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:35 am This should have been posted yesterday
1 hour 10 minutes.PNG
if alison wagon isn't pure aro is only wolf on it
spf voting with alison on aro

aro/spf w/w?
?
sorry the postcount didn't get posted for some reason.
alison wagon had 2 remaining alive ppl on it: me and aro
aro wagon had wilgy, spf, alison
rondo did not vote from what I can see

alison knows she's going over since this was day 3
wise to have aro!wolf on her wagon
and alison and spf!wolf votes on aro

no?
no its before EOD I voted Alison

do you still have the vc screenshots? if you do can you post them

arogame123 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:24 am
Porscha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:22 am
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:35 am This should have been posted yesterday
1 hour 10 minutes.PNG
if alison wagon isn't pure aro is only wolf on it
spf voting with alison on aro

aro/spf w/w?
?

sorry the postcount didn't get posted for some reason.
alison wagon had 2 remaining alive ppl on it: me and aro
aro wagon had wilgy, spf, alison
rondo did not vote from what I can see

alison knows she's going over since this was day 3
wise to have aro!wolf on her wagon
and alison and spf!wolf votes on aro

no?

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:35 am This should have been posted yesterday
1 hour 10 minutes.PNG

if alison wagon isn't pure aro is only wolf on it
spf voting with alison on aro

aro/spf w/w?

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:02 am
Porscha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:01 am I think alison / rondo unaligned
why?

going thru rondo's first days of posts

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:57 pm
Porscha wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:56 pm
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:54 pm
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:30 pm
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:22 pm it's day 6, and i have spent 5 full dayphases in a row pushing on villagers. i have not pushed on a single wolf for this entire game. this is very bad, and it's probably the worst towngame i have ever played in my history of forum mafia

i am embarrassed about the fact that i am not mafia and there's a part of me that honestly just wants to give up and die today instead of enduring another humiliation of trying to take the game back and potentially being wrong for the sixth time in a row

that said, i also believe that i am the person in the game right now who has the most unique vantage point to solve the game. i have the TMI that i'm town, and i also have the TMI that i've been brought to the game today to be the game winning elimination. this makes the question of: "what were the mafia doing on X day?" a lot easier to answer
I guess we lose the game because you are not a bad player from Macs perspective and you have pushed town too much. You're too dangerous to be kept alive, Boq died trying to bury you, you tried to push Seanzie as a self prez to get to lylo and try to argue out of being the lynch like this. Its too wolfy to be wolfy? Too wolfy to live and do better next game imho
you are also not a bad player from mac's perspective but you have failed to push on a single mafia for this entire game. if you're going to hold yourself to the same standard, you should self-vote, right?
weird post spf
you haven't seen anything yet

kinda hope it stays that way

I think alison / rondo unaligned

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:54 pm
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:30 pm
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:22 pm it's day 6, and i have spent 5 full dayphases in a row pushing on villagers. i have not pushed on a single wolf for this entire game. this is very bad, and it's probably the worst towngame i have ever played in my history of forum mafia

i am embarrassed about the fact that i am not mafia and there's a part of me that honestly just wants to give up and die today instead of enduring another humiliation of trying to take the game back and potentially being wrong for the sixth time in a row

that said, i also believe that i am the person in the game right now who has the most unique vantage point to solve the game. i have the TMI that i'm town, and i also have the TMI that i've been brought to the game today to be the game winning elimination. this makes the question of: "what were the mafia doing on X day?" a lot easier to answer
I guess we lose the game because you are not a bad player from Macs perspective and you have pushed town too much. You're too dangerous to be kept alive, Boq died trying to bury you, you tried to push Seanzie as a self prez to get to lylo and try to argue out of being the lynch like this. Its too wolfy to be wolfy? Too wolfy to live and do better next game imho
you are also not a bad player from mac's perspective but you have failed to push on a single mafia for this entire game. if you're going to hold yourself to the same standard, you should self-vote, right?

weird post spf

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:40 pm inb4 me and porscha

together at last

arogame123 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:22 pm
Porscha wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:20 pm
arogame123 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:15 pm
Porscha wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:43 pm part of me wishes I was a better player who could have pushed on spf better earlier on but I felt like she countered me too well when I pushed on her
I don't understand this, because in the beginning of the day, I mentioned I wanted to go on SPF because of legacy, but then you piled on me for just blindly following and I ended up not doing that through listening to others and discussing about who was the best vote towards EoD. I asked many times and was trying to get the full view before I made my vote.

It seems very odd to me now that people like Lily were saying Seanzie was "obv town" when she was telling me not too long ago to vote Seanzie with them and I had asked her the team lmfao.
I had to push you I hope you understand that at this point
Ok, well what's ur state of the game rn?

its bad

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:19 pm
Porscha wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:17 pm
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:48 pm THEN WHY!? Even if you do the worst case scenario and tie trying to vote SPF that gives us another day. IF YOU KNOW SOMEONE IS TOWN WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU ON THEM?! We could have had an extra day and more info on who the wolves wanted to kill over yeeting someone you 'know' is town. That has just pissed me the fuck off
/shrug

is what it is I was under time pressure
I forgave you already

hey thanks

arogame123 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:15 pm
Porscha wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:43 pm part of me wishes I was a better player who could have pushed on spf better earlier on but I felt like she countered me too well when I pushed on her
I don't understand this, because in the beginning of the day, I mentioned I wanted to go on SPF because of legacy, but then you piled on me for just blindly following and I ended up not doing that through listening to others and discussing about who was the best vote towards EoD. I asked many times and was trying to get the full view before I made my vote.

It seems very odd to me now that people like Lily were saying Seanzie was "obv town" when she was telling me not too long ago to vote Seanzie with them and I had asked her the team lmfao.

I had to push you I hope you understand that at this point

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:48 pm THEN WHY!? Even if you do the worst case scenario and tie trying to vote SPF that gives us another day. IF YOU KNOW SOMEONE IS TOWN WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU ON THEM?! We could have had an extra day and more info on who the wolves wanted to kill over yeeting someone you 'know' is town. That has just pissed me the fuck off

/shrug

is what it is I was under time pressure

I was pretty certain sean was town when I was catching up on his posts at eod

part of me wishes I was a better player who could have pushed on spf better earlier on but I felt like she countered me too well when I pushed on her

Lilypetal wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:25 pm
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:23 pm
Lilypetal wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:21 pm @arogame123 Me dying before nanook or porscha was highly unlikely. Even if I buried spf yesterday and she flipped W I still wouldn't have died before them because ppl would've tinfoiled us as w/w.

Tbh I'm currently at you and spf wolfing together. It was my theory yesterday and continues to be my theory now that seanzie has flipped V.
That would make sense why he was hesitant to park his vote on SPF but what about Porscha moving to SPF and then straight back?
She said it was to avoid a tie I think which didn't make much sense. Tbh I was thinking about last minute swapping to spf so I almost tr her if she was having doubts. I need to reread eod and make sure

I did not vote spf to avoid a tie. aro was off the 2 wagons, he had 4 minutes to vote and I knew he would, I wanted to see how spf would react to my vote (tho aro ended up moving his vote at same time.) I could tell sean was town but ultimately decided I didn't think he was caught up enough to be good for lylo but I was thinking about it afterwards and I should have just stayed on spf b/c I dont want her in lylo either. that's the eod on mobile while hiding from your boss moves. I need to reread some stuff

Lilypetal wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:19 pm Porscha being alive over nanook is rly odd

i'm gonna cry why did you do this to me

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:59 pm
arogame123 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:57 pm I'm keeping my vote where it is based off today and how SPF approached today and seeing Seanzie's responses and progression. gl gl
if Seanzie flips wolf SPF gets no credit because its a self pres
If Seanzie flips town re-assess Porscha in lylo along with everyone else

I'm NK you wont have to bother

arogame123 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:58 pm
Lilypetal wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:57 pm @Porscha

aro has voted seanzie can u explain whats going on rn
Porscha switched.

They wanted to avoid a tie if they were worried I didn't vote.

No I said "aro has 4 minute left whatever" and moved but then You moved at same time

Sean cant go to lylo sole reason I vote him rn

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:54 pm I suspect that Aero hasnt actually gone to lunch and is waiting for a post exactly like this one but @Porscha any chance I can convince you to come back to SPF? Not because I want to save Seanzie, but because I want SPF more right now. However if he does go over I am ok with it because of how he has treated my slot

The question I ask myself is if i put my trust in you, can you carry tomorrow when i get NK'd?

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:12 pm
Porscha wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:33 pm
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:11 pm
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:01 am [VOTE: Seanzie ] aubergine

Just to mess with people even more
i do have to admit that this surprises me. i was really not expecting you to vote for seanzie regardless of whether my theory about you and him being W/W was correct. if youre mafia then smart move tbh
rondo had said earlier that sean was second best positioned behind aro before you went onto sean case
hmm

do you think it means anything for whether rondo/seanzie can be partnered?

Ya but like everything else in this god forsaken game it also might mean nothing in terms of possible partner

Lilypetal wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:34 pm
Porscha wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:38 pm hey lily haha fancy meeting you here
hi porscha what's up

have to go to work now ;(

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:11 pm
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:01 am [VOTE: Seanzie ] aubergine

Just to mess with people even more
i do have to admit that this surprises me. i was really not expecting you to vote for seanzie regardless of whether my theory about you and him being W/W was correct. if youre mafia then smart move tbh

rondo had said earlier that sean was second best positioned behind aro before you went onto sean case

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:48 pm
Porscha wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:45 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:39 pm
Porscha wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:38 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:34 pm Not sure why people are voting me, but y'all do you.
you hurt me my son :/
Okay? I don't know if this is in reference to something, but I don't get it. I've barely talked to you.
lmao wtf is this response? on god sean has read literally nothing and understands no references to "you pain me, my son"

YOU PAIN ME CUZ YOU NO PLAY GAME
Sorry, it has been an insane week for work. Honestly, I am kind of happy; I've spent way too much time on mafia in the past, and while low-effort Seanzie kind of sucks at mafia, it is nice that I am able to be in a game but still put it down when I need to and focus on my work.

that's good to hear

who do you think are wolves

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:45 pm
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:15 am how did seanzie and rondo interact?

-seanzie calls out rondo for not posting enough content in this post (viewtopic.php?p=956470#p956470) and then never follows up with it again

-after rondo makes a post asking seanzie a basic question about his reads, seanzie votes for rondo and says it is the "wolfiest post he has seen all game" (viewtopic.php?p=956777#p956777)

-on viewtopic.php?p=956852#p956852, seanzie refers to rondo as an "outed wolf"

-on viewtopic.php?p=957026#p957026, rondo/seanzie have a softball interaction about rondo's read on alison

-on viewtopic.php?p=958170#p958170, seanzie discredits my reasoning for townreading rondo and implies that it is fallacious

-in response to aro posting a list of towns, seanzie says that he thinks rondo and porscha are the two most likely who could be wolves, but they could all "easily be okay" (viewtopic.php?p=958470#p958470)

-seanzie responds to a post from rondo and says that he does not think rondo is town, and that he thinks the mafia are boq/lily. if one of boq/lily are town, he says he thinks that the mafia is me. if there's still a mafia after that, he thinks it would be rondo (viewtopic.php?p=958475#p958475)

from this point forward, the two of them continue to have some lightly contentious interactions that are pretty silly/lighthearted in tone

how did rondo and seanzie interact?

-rondo says that if alison flips mafia, seanzie is "town or deep wolf", which is a non-sequitur and a meaningless thing to say (viewtopic.php?p=956365#p956365)

-rondo says he likes a post from seanzie (viewtopic.php?p=954734#p954734)

-rondo asks creature to talk more about why he scumreads seanzie - does not follow up with this question ever again (viewtopic.php?p=956453#p956453)

-viewtopic.php?p=956731#p956731 softball interaction between the two of them

-rondo says that seanzie and alison have W/W equity on viewtopic.php?p=956737#p956737

-more softball interaction on viewtopic.php?p=956756#p956756

-viewtopic.php?p=956828#p956828 rondo implies that he townreads seanzie out of nowhere, in spite of his last interaction with seanzie implying that he thought that seanzie/alison had W/W equity

-rondo reacts to seanzie's vote on him by calling him an "outed wolf" viewtopic.php?p=956843#p956843

-....in spite of this, he calls seanzie a townlean shortly after anyway, and says it's because "seanzie made a ridiculous push on me" (viewtopic.php?p=957030#p957030)

-rono quotes a post from seanzie, calls it scummy, and says he "could go seanzie" (viewtopic.php?p=958474#p958474)

-rondo/seanzie have some brief interaction in which rondo cocnludes that he will "keep tunneling" seanzie (viewtopic.php?p=958481#p958481)

-viewtopic.php?p=960291#p960291 rondo says that he "wouldn't be surprised if seanzie was a wolf"

SO, in short, (this is the important part of the post that you should read):

from seanzie's side of things, seanzie very briefly pushed rondo at a couple of points throughout d1 and d2 - referring to him as an "outed wolf" and saying that he made the scummiest post he has ever seen

from d3 onward, seanzie stops pushing on rondo entirely, signal boosts a readslist from aro that contains rondo as town, and says that he would resolve me/illy/boq before he would push on rondo. he has made no further attempts to develop his read on rondo, push on rondo, or signal boost any suspicion toward rondo whatsoever. instead, he has consistently pushed a POE of me/lily/boq while giving rondo the cold shoulder

from rondo's side of things, rondo has a few softball interactions with seanzie early in the game, says that alison/seanzie have W/W equity multiple times, calls seanzie an outed wolf, and then suddenly shifts to townreading seanzie for vague and unclear reasons. from here, rondo makes several posts shading seanzie by saying he "wouldn't be surprised if seanzie was a wolf", but he has continued to push a POE of me/lily/boq
I assume this is what Lily was referring to.

At least from my side, pretty much any accusation here is explained by the fact that I have just been busy.

I didn't push rondo at x time because I wasn't following the game closely at x time, and Rondo wasn't the person I thought most likely to be a wolf.

I mean, sure SPF winning the effort contest here, but effort \neq town.

if i'm getting snowed by spf/lily idc it's about impossible to work with you or nook which is too many people this far into the game so it is what it is

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:39 pm
Porscha wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:38 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:34 pm Not sure why people are voting me, but y'all do you.
you hurt me my son :/
Okay? I don't know if this is in reference to something, but I don't get it. I've barely talked to you.

lmao wtf is this response? on god sean has read literally nothing and understands no references to "you pain me, my son"

YOU PAIN ME CUZ YOU NO PLAY GAME

hey lily haha fancy meeting you here

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:34 pm Not sure why people are voting me, but y'all do you.

you hurt me my son :/

Fyi very good chance I wont be around for eod but I'll try to pop in and what not

Poor sean getting the dead thread treatment

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:16 am
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:56 am
staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:35 am just noting that rondo stopped his real-time catchup once he got to the part of the thread where i started casing him/seanzie as partners

this is making my conf bias go crazy
Nah I only just saw it now, Its a really well made post. Too bad its come to the wrong conclusion
by that I mean, Seanzie could be wolf. I just know I am town so the totality is wrong, partially it could be right. I wasnt getting any agreement on my Seanzie earlier so I just dropped it, especially after he brushed me off and no one decided that was socially unacceptable.

tbf that specific interaction kinda made me wanna die inside

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:15 am
Porscha wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:14 am
RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:01 am [VOTE: Seanzie ] aubergine

Just to mess with people even more
haha whoa rondo you threw a curveball on that one. too bad it's a miss outside for ball 4
please dont remind me of that game. It still haunts me

it's very amusing I accidentally proc'd this memory for you, but it was just meant to be a joke about how I felt about your response via baseball terms

RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:01 am [VOTE: Seanzie ] aubergine

Just to mess with people even more

haha whoa rondo you threw a curveball on that one. too bad it's a miss outside for ball 4

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