The Syndicate

Golden wrote:Matt, I may have moved to civ-aligned civ on you now.

What are you trying to say here? Civ-aligned indy?

If that's what you're saying, I thought you already had me down as that. Anyway, if that's what you wanna think, go for it. Better then what SVS is thinking.

As a matter of fact, Golden, while you're here, would you agree that SVS' case on me has a few holes?

Very nice result.

S~V~S wrote:

Elohcin wrote:And, I think the last two (there are two left, right?) Are Zebra and TH. Just sayin'.

Not FZ? She pretty much was in charge of the Save Sig committee.

And the Save MM committee.

Golden wrote:Fair enough. I doubt you'll take my word for it. I know mine was forced, and I have good reason to feel sure that SVS and Mac's were as well. I don't have the same level of certainty on Matt F, but how much more unlikely is 4 than 3. I think if anyone was a cop role, they likely would have pushed harder on the 'despite votes being forced, lets not rule sig out as civ', which at times it felt like I was the only one with any actual suspicion on him and I'll admit that even so I doubt I would have voted for him if not for the event.

I also think there is clear evidence from the person responsible that all the votes were legitimately forced. Do you see what I'm referring to?

Per the underline, I also have good reason to believe SVS was forced, considering the admitted mistake by Epi. What gives you reason to assume that Mac's vote was forced more then mine?

MacDougall wrote:I reckon Matt is the solo rogue and is the vote manip.

Believe me, I wish I could take credit for this. Ironically, I never even suspected sig until today's events transpired. I actually begin to think he was bad because of the manip.

Anyway, right now...

SVS thinks I'm Harkonnen. Golden thinks I'm civ aligned indy. And I really don't know what Mac thinks.

Regardless, happy for the result. It was a good one.

Linki - Really Zebra? Why? Give me your case. In fact, Mac, give me your case. Please.

Again, though, if you continue to pursue me, I'm going to have to repeat the following questions...

Matt F wrote:Okay, you have me on Harkonnen. Now walk me through how I'm teammates with MM.

Also, how did I target paint you?

Also, would you agree that anyone discussing Sorsha in the thread also had her pegged as an info role before I asked her to check me out?

Also, let's walk through this. I asked if you felt secure in the knowledge you wouldn't be killed Night 1. HOW does that correlate with you being slowly poisoned throughout the game?

S~V~S wrote:Talking to me like I am an idiot does not help.

Personally, I think my theory is flawless. Based on what I know, that is. I don;t know what you may or may not know. The person who poisoned me would have known it failed. And with the semi closed set up, trying to put out feelers as to why could not hurt, right?

Why did you ask me if i felt safe that night?

I don't think of you as an idiot and never have, honest to goodness. If it comes across that way, I apologize.

So are you saying someone did poison you? Is that what I'm taking away here? I had no idea that you were when I asked that, for real.

As to why I asked you that question, I'm not going to answer that. Sorry. But I'm not MM's teamie and I'm a townie. Swearsies!

S~V~S wrote:No I don;t have you as Emperor team, i have you on Harkonnen.

And poisoning is a cumulative effect. It piles votes on you. It is not a direct kill. I am fairly sure there is a poisoner in the game because i have reason to be

And Pieter Dr Vries would be the perfect poisoner role since he, um, poisons people in the books. So yeah.

Okay, you have me on Harkonnen. Now walk me through how I'm teammates with MM.

Also, how did I target paint you?

Also, would you agree that anyone discussing Sorsha in the thread also had her pegged as an info role before I asked her to check me out?

Also, let's walk through this. I asked if you felt secure in the knowledge you wouldn't be killed Night 1. HOW does that correlate with you being slowly poisoned throughout the game?

I'm finding a lot of fault with your case. Do you also see the flaws?

Alright then, let's discuss it then.
Up above you have me pegged as The Emperor team, yet you seem to be not sure whether they are bad or indy. On top of that, you even struggle with this decision because it is Harkonnen who is making kills. Now you have me on Harkonnen as MM's teammate. Is that correct? Or do you think I'm on team Emperor?

I don't see how I target painted you. I asked you an admitted weird question, and I don't see how that question has to do with my alignment either which way. That is to say, I don't think you should be able to call me a civ, baddie, or indy simply because of that question. As for "target painting" Sorsha, there was speculation long before I said anything that she may have an info role. I think, at one point, she even comments on how she will probably be dead later that night!!

Also, has anyone answered my question? I've asked it about four times. If you've played in an Epignosis game, does he show failed NK attempts in his night post? SVS, I'm sure you've played an Epi game or two. Do you know the answer to this question?

I ask this because I truly believe no one tried to kill you on Night 1 SVS, or otherwise, it would've been shown. My question had ZERO to do with someone targeting you. I'm sorry I can't go into it more then that, but that's the best answer there is, it's the truth. I still don't see how this target paints you??

Lastly, WIFOM comin' up, but I simply wouldn't ask you a question like that had I tried to kill you. Straight up.

But I'm glad you're looking at FZ, because she's been my top suspect since MM flipped. We can agree on something!

S~V~S wrote:I voted matt initially, because I think he is bad. i think he is MMs teammate, tbh.

I'm not MM's teammate. Why do you think I am?

FZ. wrote:So basically, every player I brought up today, has someone vouching for him/her except for Floyd.

Well, I kinda sorta but not really vouched for him. If that counts.

SVS voted for me completely from left field. No chance to even answer. When I did answer, she ignored it. (also I never got the sense that she was pissed, don't know where that's from)

From what I understand, she believes I attempted to kill her throughout the night (or somehow knew about someone trying to), hence my question to her in the thread. I did not try to kill her, nor did I know of any kind of attempt. I admit, freely (as I stated when I asked it), it was a weird question, but that's not indicative of my alignment.

Linki - Thanks Golden.

Lol Golden

Also, Golden, do you believe a Mafia team has that many vote manips in one day? Or are you still going with two different roles coincidentally picked the same person?

a2thezebra wrote:

Matt F wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:One or more as in both of the sig voters that aren't you, Matt?

Also, what do you think? Do you think the mafia has several vote manips to their advantage every day?

Do you see any visible mote manips from Day 1 or Day 2?

I haven't checked that far, but if anything, I'd say a mafia team would have one, and at most, two. Three? In one day?

Go ahead and look at me for my own reasoning, but I'm telling you, it seems like too many to me.

a2thezebra wrote:One or more as in both of the sig voters that aren't you, Matt?

Also, what do you think? Do you think the mafia has several vote manips to their advantage every day?

a2thezebra wrote:One or more as in both of the sig voters that aren't you, Matt?

Um yes exactly them. The two who treated me saying something obvious as having anything to do with my alignment.

Golden wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:For sig, the only chance of him being bad would be that he or his teammates intentionally forced the votes on him to make him look good.

Obviously, on this point, you are ignoring the fact that there are quite probably two different role abilities at play and we have no evidence that if sig is bad his teammates would have known what they were bringing upon him.

Holy moley you made an educated guess as to what role abilities may be in this game.

You must be bad.

Anywho, I don't think it would be a silly plan to do what Zebra is suggesting might have happened on the off chance sig is still bad. Why not? In fact, I'm having a hard time believing that the Mafia would have that many vote manips on one day (and it would be a huge coincidence that two different roles manipulated votes on sig, IMO). Does this mean we can be expecting that many vote manips from them everyday? I don't think so, that seems insane. I wouldn't be surprised if one or more of the sig voters is faking.

As for Floyd, I think it's quite possible he bussed a teamie. I haven't looked at Floyd in any current games because over in TH, I cried for his head many times and was ignored. Also I know this seems like "really?" reasoning, but I think the odds are more in favor of someone getting a civ role, and since he was already a baddie in his first game, I just don't know.

I haven't looked at Turnip Head since I cased him, but right now I like FZ and Zebra better then him anyway.

Looking over Zebra's posts, I'm wondering why she completely ignored (and when I say completely, I mean completely) Sorsha's "case" on MM...

On that day, Sorsha had made 9 posts either questioning MM or clearly relaying she thinks MM is bad and wants him gone. This all occurs before 3:27 PM (my time).

At 3:27 PM, Zebra comes in and makes the following posts...
That last post is at 4:33 PM my time. At this point, an hour and six minute has gone by since Zebra has started posting, and she is disinterested in the MM case I suppose because she's ignoring it.

I'd also like to point out, while she's ignoring the MM case, she's also pushing Floyd here while at the time, MM had two votes, any other candidates had only one vote a piece.

20 Minutes after her last post pushing for Floyd, she finally chimes in on MM...

4:53 PM
Finally, 1 hour and 26 minutes after Zebra logs in, she chimes in on MM, to defend him. This was 18 minutes before the vote ends.

After the lynch and result...
Per the underline, she's made a bunch of posts (I've lost count, and some of them were defending me against Golden/Mac...ummmm thanks for that btw haha) but no looking for any MM connections.

I dunno.

Until SVS addresses me, asks me a question, maybe just a simple "Hey there Matt", I will assume her vote has been tampered with. Yes, that would be a whole lotta vote manip, but whatevs.

In the meantime, here is my case on FZ
Two posts after the Night phase is over, Sorsha dives in against MM. Immediately FZ is "pinged" by Sorsha simply asking MM questions.

Side note - Sorsha, what did you mean there by "sig/his team". I noticed MM eventually responded to you, being very careful about by saying "I think A team had something to do with it..." (paraphrasing). Do you believe sig could be bad?
Now check this out. The underline is interesting because here, FZ seems to know that MM is being more jokey then his usual civ self, but earlier in the game, it looks like she's not an expert on this at all...

FZ. wrote:Is jokey Marsh a good Marsh?

The following quotes show, IMO, FZ trying to sway the thread from voting MM... (the second quote only emphasizes what she's trying to do in the first and third quote, IMO)
Below, we see FZ getting annoyed at Floyd voting for MM
Here she's still questioning Sorsha on her case...

FZ. wrote:linki: Can you see a way you could be wrong about him Sorsha?

Here she... lol. Here MM has just admitted to btsc, and FZ says...
Then, at the end of the day phase, before the poll is over...
And finally...
She really was out too. After spending the day defending MM, then pushing a tie at the last minute, she bails and doesn't stay to see what happens.

Yeah yeah, I can already hear "But why would I do all that as a baddie???" I dunno, but she did do all that, and it doesn't make her look good IMO.

If I was able to change my vote today, it would go FZ.

S~V~S wrote:doh I thought the poll ended last night. Still OK with my vote, but need to catch up.

Still OK? You haven't even addressed me.

Do you, SVS, think that I would try to kill you, and then say in thread "So say SVS, did you know my NK on you the other day totes wouldn't work? Unbelievable right didja know that would happen?"

I blame myself

I don't think the early votes on sig automatically make him good. Reverse psychology 101. This almost feels too obvious. Just a random thought.

Elohcin wrote:

Golden wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:There's nothing impulsive about my Golden vote.

I'm sure there isn't, you've suspected me all game.

However, I am House Atriedes (thanks for clarifying what can be claimed epi), I've already provided plenty of evidence that I have the same win con as zebra 1.0, and your vote for me will not help the civilians win the game.

Interesting. Matt, Mac, do you care to share what house you belong to?

No, not really. I am civ aligned, though, I assure you.

Linki - SVS - I have no knowledge of baddie targeting. Thank you for allowing me to express that before voting for me. Have you expressed the reason why, two days in a row now, you vote for someone without questioning them first? Can we expect that the rest of the game as well?

bea wrote:

Matt F wrote:Where's Sorsha? Hey Sorsha, since for some inexplicable reason the Harkonnen didn't kill you, here are a couple of quotes for you...

I am civ. I don't have btsc. I am town aligned. I root for the townies. Townies are my best friend.

Take any or all of those and report back so Golden and Mac can get off my back, please.

I'm sorry if this has been addressed, but it stands out to me.
Why do you think Sorsha has a lie detector role?

Obviously she learned something N1 that lead her to D2, but there are all sorts of roles that could gain "info." Allignement checks and other things - that could have given her info too. Jumping right to lie detector feels oddly specific just like your question to svs felt oddly specific.

A post of Sorsha's made towards the host lead me to believe her role was lie detect, after we all learned she has an info role of some kind. Don't take my word for it, ISO Sorsha.

S~V~S wrote:It is possible. Although in Mafia structure, the Emperor could be another baddie, since he was against both Atreides & Harkonnen. It actually makes more sense, now that I am thinking about it, for him to be bad than for him to be indy. Although both night kills were house Harkonnen. Gah.

I am going to skate on thin ice here and hope not to annoy Skeletor~ based on his role, and based on something I know about my own role, , and based on my knowledge of the book, I think MMs power was as a poisoner. Based on my knowledge of Metalmarsh, I would not be at all surprised if he tried to poison me Night One. And I think Matt knew about it, based on his question to me about feeling safe. And I think he is target painting with both of those questions, the one to me and the one to Sorsha. I had not seen that question he posed to Sorsha, I am glad you pointed it out Bea. One question of that nature, OK, but two?

I overslept and will have to devote time to the other game when I get home tonight, so I am going to vote now.

*Votes Matt F*

For real? There is a day and a half to go, the vote is unchangeable, and you don't give me a chance to defend? I noticed you did the same exact thing to MM, vote him without a chance to defend. In his case, good job, in mine, not so much. Either way, hopefully this isn't a recurring pattern the rest of the game where SVS just plops her vote down before asking her accused a single question.

The comment towards Sorsha about my quotes was to get Golden off my back. Again, if you read all of Sorsha's posts, you might see something that I saw and also assume lie detect. Also, did I sign up for The Twilight Zone Mafia? Where every obvious thing I say gets funny looks and suspicions from players??? First from Golden and Mac, now SVS.

As for my question to SVS, it was a question I was curious about and wanted to get an answer. That you believe you suddenly have me pegged as Indy or baddie or good town aligned indy or EVEN town...simply from that question (which I admitted was weird when I asked it)...boggles my mind.

And again - To anyone who has played an Epignosis game (and I'm sure several of you have), please answer - Does he include failed NK attempts in his night posts? If he DOES, then hopefully we can get past this silly "Matt tried to kill/poison/whatever SVS and then asked her about it straight up in the thread". I mean, c'mon, I know I'm not the best player, but really now?

Sorsha wrote:

Matt F wrote:Sorsha - Why do you suppose Harkonnen spared you?

I'm assuming there is a protector role in this game since there's one in every game. So I'm guessing they thought that I'd be an obvious candidate for the protector last night so they chose someone else.

Sorry was in defense mode and forgot about this...

That makes a ton of sense there. Derp.

a2thezebra wrote:

Matt F wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:And which faction is that, Matt? The one that you are sure is town?

Which faction do you think is town?

I mean, really now?

I asked first.

Well, considering the amount of players the faction has, I'm going to assume the first faction on the role list are the civilians. Is there a single person in this game who thinks otherwise? Zebra, were you expecting any other answer? I'm at a loss to your questioning here.

a2thezebra wrote:And which faction is that, Matt? The one that you are sure is town?

Which faction do you think is town?

I mean, really now?

Golden wrote:

Matt F wrote:

Golden wrote:

Matt F wrote:Whattya mean melodramatic? Figured that'd be the best way to get you to back off. I have no other recourse. I've explained why I've said what I said and I don't think you're believing me, so it is what it is.

What do you want me to back off of? I'm not coming at you!

Lol if you believe I'm any other faction other then town, I take that as coming at me. You wouldn't?

No, and if you actually read my posts instead of getting defensive I think it would very clear to you why.

Because you accused me of being a town aligned indy as opposed to just being town? Is that what you're trying to say?

Either way, you and Mac were both sussin' me for me saying something obvious.

Anyway, I admit to getting defensive and apologize but it super weirded me out.

Linki - Zebra - I have no idea how many factions town has. For now, I see one faction being town. Every other faction - unknown.

Golden wrote:

Matt F wrote:Whattya mean melodramatic? Figured that'd be the best way to get you to back off. I have no other recourse. I've explained why I've said what I said and I don't think you're believing me, so it is what it is.

What do you want me to back off of? I'm not coming at you!

Lol if you believe I'm any other faction other then town, I take that as coming at me. You wouldn't?

Whattya mean melodramatic? Figured that'd be the best way to get you to back off. I have no other recourse. I've explained why I've said what I said and I don't think you're believing me, so it is what it is.

Where's Sorsha? Hey Sorsha, since for some inexplicable reason the Harkonnen didn't kill you, here are a couple of quotes for you...

I am civ. I don't have btsc. I am town aligned. I root for the townies. Townies are my best friend.

Take any or all of those and report back so Golden and Mac can get off my back, please.

I am defensive. I stated what was obvious to everyone and suddenly you and Mac are all over it like I slipped.

Seems to me if you are going to say that you did not think it was possible the other factions had kills, well frankly that seems unrealistic. In fact, I was anticipating tonight's night post to see who would make the kill, and when Harkonnen made it again, I decided to point that out. Suddenly you and Mac are claiming I slipped! I'm seriously in "wtf" mode right now.

Golden - What do you think of sig? Do the three votes on him today make you feel better or worse about him? I'm supposing they're meant to make us feel better, but then I'm wondering if this is the ultimate test in reverse psychology, tbh.

Linki - Lol @ Mac. If there have been kills that have failed, then why aren't those attempted kills shown in the night post?

To anyone who has played an Epi hosted game, does he include failed NK's in the night post?

And regarding SVS, you really think I would say that to her had I tried to kill her? C'mon dude, really?

Golden - Straight up, did you think that the other factions may have kills at their disposal? And if so, then why are you accusing me of not being town aligned if you also had those thoughts? That is wack, c'mon now.

Golden wrote:It doesn't help that your question to SVS yesterday kind of reeked of 'SVS, I tried to kill you. Why didn't you die?'

I assume if someone tried to kill SVS, the Night Post would've shown a kill not happening.

I mean, really Golden, you're better then this.

Sorsha - Why do you suppose Harkonnen spared you?

TheFloyd73 wrote:

MacDougall wrote:Floyd have you read your win con?

Of course I have. I won't be completely open about it, but it's based around lynching members of Harkonnen.

Lol

a2thezebra wrote:I think that because you assumed that another faction will start killing when it hadn't crossed Mac's mind, (which I actually find hard to believe) you may have revealed that you are a part of whatever faction that may be. I think it's a stretch, otherwise I wouldn't tell you.

Thanks.

So then in that case, Mac believes I am part of the Fremen, Emperor teams or the Smuggler. Fantastic. Golden seems to think I'm the Smuggler too based on "indy slip".

I stated the obvious, and yes, I also find it hard to believe that both Mac and Golden hadn't previously thought those things could be possible. For real?

MacDougall wrote:

Matt F wrote:

sig wrote:Wait what, three votes at the start of the day why?

I noticed Harkonnen killed again. So the other factions aren't killing (as of yet).

Okay, went back to your original suspish post.

Yes, I stated the obvious. The other factions are not killing (as of yet). How on earth do you see that as a slip?

Golden - Is it just so outrageous to believe the indy may have a kill or two under their belt? Did you not speculate that they may, as well?

Seriously wtf is going on here?

Linki Zebra - I guess I'm just that dumb. Someone please clue me in.

Let me ask you Mac.

Without me saying a word about it...

What were your feelings on the Fremen, the Emperor, and The Smuggler? Did you think that, just perhaps, they might also have kills available to them?

No, I don't see it. Explain it please.

My bad. That was Golden with the indeed.

I thought three different players were coming after me for saying what I thought was obvious to everyone.

Yes, I get panicky when I'm suspected. I get panicky and suspicious as hell when I'm suspected for something like this. I STILL don't understand where you think I slipped?

MacDougall wrote:

Matt F wrote:

Golden wrote:@Matt - I will now elaborate. Did you read your win condition?

Yes, I have. Also, is there some of your post missing, because I thought you said you were going to elaborate?

Linki

Linki - I am panicked. Suddenly you, Golden, and Eloh are all up in arms for me stating the obvious. I don't like whatever is going on and I don't understand the suspicion, frankly.

Linki

Why do you keep saying Eloh is up in arms about it? Where has she commented on your post that Golden and I are referring to?

Ummm

Wow, I thought she quoted you and said "Indeed" but it's not in her ISO. Did someone else quote you and say "Indeed" when you gave me the suspish emote? Lemme check

Golden wrote:@Matt - I will now elaborate. Did you read your win condition?

Yes, I have. Also, is there some of your post missing, because I thought you said you were going to elaborate?

Linki

Linki - I am panicked. Suddenly you, Golden, and Eloh are all up in arms for me stating the obvious. I don't like whatever is going on and I don't understand the suspicion, frankly.

Linki

Something is happening here...

But I will elaborate.

There are several factions to the game.

House Atreides - I believe these to be the civilians, so the only kill they get as a faction is through lynches.

Team Harkonnen - They killed Night 1. They killed Night 2. Obv this is Mafia.

The Fremen - It looks to be another group, and there has already been discussion in this very thread about the possibility of multiple mafia groups

Team Emperor = See what I said about the Fremen

The Smuggler - Looks like an indy

It was interesting to me that on Night 1 and 2, only team Harkonnen killed. So that means, either they will be the only ones killing the rest of the game, or each of the other factions may have a kill or two whenever they want to use it (ie "as of yet" in my previous statement)

Honestly here, I was stating what was the obvious, just to get it out there, and suddenly Golden, Mac (who to my knowledge also voted SIG right away, wtf) and Eloh are all up in arms about it!

Golden wrote:

MacDougall wrote:

Matt F wrote:

sig wrote:Wait what, three votes at the start of the day why?

I noticed Harkonnen killed again. So the other factions aren't killing (as of yet).

Indeed.

Say what? What are you suspicious of Mac?

And before Mac answers, I'd like Elohcin to elaborate first since she apparently agrees with him. Elohcin?

sig wrote:Wait what, three votes at the start of the day why?

What do you think of FZ and Turnip? Have you already said?

How about this, do you think Elohcin knew that Niju would be taken off the poll today? Elohcin was taken off the poll the day before right?



I noticed Harkonnen killed again. So the other factions aren't killing (as of yet).

RIP Draconus.

Vote Sig

My top suspects as of this moment...

FZ and Turnip, with slight susses still on Golden and Zebra 2.0

And a tiny eye on SVS (but I always think she's bad )

I believe, much to Mac's delight, I will be able to post cases on FZ and Turnip in the next few hours

Linki - Lol Mac Yup

MacDougall wrote:

Matt F wrote:SVS - This is going to sound weird, but I have a question.

Were you secure in the knowledge that you wouldn't be killed on Night 1 or did you fear for your safety as the rest of us did?

Matt, now that Metalmarsh is deceased can you please explain what your line of thought here was? I will note that he chose not to answer your question.

The question was directed to SVS, and she answered...

S~V~S wrote:I almost never "fear for my safety"; no guts no glory. But if you are asking if I had reason to think I was more likely to live that night than anyone else, no, I did not.

Well, in that case Turnip, it's hard to gauge whether or not it was worth it for her to push the tie (assuming she's Mafia)

Turnip Head wrote:Good job Sorsha. I guess this looks really bad for me.

What do you think of FZ pushing a tie at the last minute?

Sorsha (or anyone) - Do you still see MM's day one vote for Turnip a distancing vote?

Also, I think FZ deserves a re-read after her pushing the tie that may have saved a baddie.

Also, RIH MM.

Woot!!

Nice job, Sorsha